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Mapping Red Dead Redemption 2! Landmark Analysis Thread

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zachsterosu
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#1051

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by zachsterosu, 2 weeks ago.

I think I may have found where both train robberies from trailer 2 are located.  While looking on the map for an indication of a train tunnel, I noticed that there were two short segments of the railroad were dashed instead of full.  Additionally, I thought I might be able to use light reflections and the sun/moon to help give us a general sense of direction.

 

 

Picture 1A (Robbery 1)

0UgHL6H.jpg

 

 

Picture 1B (Robbery 1)

5Hpr9Yk.jpg

 

 

Picture 2A (Robbery 2)

vXTlnUK.jpg

 

 

Picture 2B (Robbery 2)

afUULt8.jpg

 

 

Picture 3A (Map 1)

TLDo4Ef.jpg

 

 

Picture 3B (Map 2)

Kb72Ned.jpg

 

 

Also, for reference, the direction of travel for the train is clockwise.

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#1052

Posted 2 weeks ago

Not to sh*t on your good work as it may well turn out to be accurate but Rockstar are known for changing the position of the sun/moon in their shots so they can have the lighting conditions they want. It may not be wise to put all your eggs in that basket, basically.

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zachsterosu
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#1053

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by zachsterosu, 2 weeks ago.

Not to sh*t on your good work as it may well turn out to be accurate but Rockstar are known for changing the position of the sun/moon in their shots so they can have the lighting conditions they want. It may not be wise to put all your eggs in that basket, basically.

Yeah, thats why I didn't solely rely on that. The sunlight stuff was just something that I used as a way to "check my work" if you will. I mostly just used the terrain and whatnot. There's only two tunnels and sharp s-curves, and imo the landscape really only lined up with one of each...

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zachsterosu
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#1054

Posted 2 weeks ago

Just another placeholder name, or possibly something more. It is mentioned in one of the newspapers in RDR that Landon Ricketts shot and killed the Butcher Brothers during the Blackwater Massacre of 1899, and a location on the leaked map in Roanoke Ridge is called "Butcher Creek".

Vme2HHl.jpg

 

On a side note there's also "Bacchus Bridge", and Old Bacchus Place from RDR, but the wiki's reasons for the naming make me think that it's almost surely a placeholder.  Additionally, I personally don't think the name "Cornwall" is going to be used for the Kerosene and Tar location, because it doesn't make sense for that kind of business to have armored train cars, with ornate emblems adorning them. I'm still not sure about "New Bordeaux" either...


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#1055

Posted 2 weeks ago

The armoured cars could be for the employees pay? If the location of Cornwall K&T is the scene in the trailer where Arthur pins that moustache boy up against the wall (just speculatin :) ) then it looks like it might be pretty big. There could definitely be some hefty sums of cash going back and forth...

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#1056

Posted 2 weeks ago

Just another placeholder name, or possibly something more. It is mentioned in one of the newspapers in RDR that Landon Ricketts shot and killed the Butcher Brothers during the Blackwater Massacre of 1899, and a location on the leaked map in Roanoke Ridge is called "Butcher Creek".

Vme2HHl.jpg

 

 

 

idk if this had been mentioned but I just noticed Thieves' Landing is marked on the map as a "Town" but is outside of the world boundary

 

Also, granted the map is legit, I'm pretty stoked about how big New Bordeaux is! A rough measuring of its size is more than 5x that of Blackwater. You just know there's going to be some real life in that place

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zachsterosu
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#1057

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by zachsterosu, 6 days ago.

The armoured cars could be for the employees pay? If the location of Cornwall K&T is the scene in the trailer where Arthur pins that moustache boy up against the wall (just speculatin :) ) then it looks like it might be pretty big. There could definitely be some hefty sums of cash going back and forth...

Yeah that could be the case, but it's more the logo that, for me, doesn't fit the business. It's a coat of arms which suggests a military or government entity(possibly the RDR universe name for the Pinkerton National Detective Agency).  The problem with the armored train cars is that historically, they were really only used during the Civil War, and looked quite different(think box car with windows). The cars in the trailer look more like mail/baggage cars with barricaded widows that have gun slots, which to me, screams either money, like you said, or something valuable.

 

Coat of Arms as a logo for businesses: https://conversation...est-and-shield/

 

 

Civil War Armored Traincar

A7cnMgZ.jpg

 

Cornwall Coat of Arms

mJlDLojh.png

 

Edit: Uploaded higher quality image of Cornwall logo...

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#1058

Posted A week ago

 

I'm going to apologize in advance for the long post, because I have a feeling that not too many people will find this meaningful, unless they are into trains like me.
 
Ok, so one thing that struck me as kind of odd was how much color seemed to be added to trains from the first trailer/screenshots to the second one.  The other thing that intrigued me was that despite the presence of a "Pacific Union" Railroad Camp on the map, the train cars in one of the screenshots displayed the name of a railroad which I could tell wasn't "Pacific Union".  This would be odd, because most railroads at that time would use their own rail cars, displaying the railroad's name. 
 
Now historically speaking, that name is clearly a fictionalized version of the Union Pacific Railroad, that stared at the Mississippi river and went west, aka the eastern half of the transcontinental railroad.  The railroad also ties in with Red Dead Universe, because it was the railroad who's trains were often robbed by Butch Cassidy's Gang(an inspiration for Dutch's Gang).
 
While looking again at the both maps(RDR, and leaked), I noticed that the new one also has rail wyes(https://en.wikipedia...wiki/Wye_(rail)).  From a design perspective, these were used to allow two trains to travel on certain sections of track but have different routes, and also for trains to make a loop to head the opposite direction(I.e. the red train at the beginning of the game, which goes around Gaptooth Breach and back to Armadillo, instead of Mexico).  Now from the map/railroad layout, it really doesn't look like sections will be blocked off, so trains won't need to do the latter.  But, this pretty much means that there will be two or more trains.
 
It might just be the same railroad(Pacific Union) with multiple trains running, but I'm not sure that's the case.  One word I think I was able to make on those train cars I mentioned was "Roanoke".  If true, this actually ties in really well with another real life railroad - Norfolk and Western(It became what is known today as Norfolk Southern).  As N&W, it was formed in 1870, and was a continuation of the largest railroad in the south during the Civil War.  It's headquarters were in Roanoke, Virginia.  The railway had many operations in hauling coal around mountainous regions(the Appalachians, and one section of the range is called the Cumberland mountains).
 
Now for the pictures.  I believe I have found a few minor visual differences that might set the two railroads apart.
 
Picture A - "Roanoke" Railroad(Norfolk and Western Railway)
-snip-
 
Picture A2 - "Roanoke" Railroad(Norfolk and Western Railway)
-snip-
 
Picture A3 - "Roanoke" Railroad(Norfolk and Western Railway) Theorized Route(Clockwise)
-snip-
 
Picture B - "Pacific Union" Railroad(Union Pacific Railroad)
-snip-
 
Picture B2 - "Pacific Union" Railroad(Union Pacific Railroad) Theorized Route(Counterclockwise)
-snip-
 
Ok, so the white circles around New Bordeaux and Cornwall are the two sidings, which are indications that both trains must travel through those two sections.  And also I think picture A2 also helps show the color difference between the locos, especially with the wheels.  Once again, I'm sorry for filling up this thread with my stupidly long theory, but I was thinking some of you might find this interesting...

yO SAINTSROW said something in the general chat that flipped my lid like a monkey in a soup kitchen of the mind so the grizzles are the frozen foreplay to these cowboy capers as seen on any version of the map [Grizzlies (intro)] but what if rather than that being the first area of the game, the first area is the rest of the game??? After all the law men "chased us over the mountains" meaning that we would be coming down, through the grizzlies into the area to the east of West Elizabeth, across the Dakota River. Everywhere else on the map is the first area, and the grizzlies plus West Elizabeth is the area revealed after enough progress. This explains why the trains loop there and have almost an entirely seperate track for the Dakota River. If you cross the Dakota River anyway, by boat for example, you will be mercilessly hunted down like a Nico Bellic on horseback. 

This would make Valentine the very first town in the game. When you unlock the rest of the map is possibly when the gang begins to "operate out of West Elizabeth (Great Plains +Tall Trees)" as mentioned in the first game. 

 

 

That would also make Big Valley off limits at the start of the game too, no? It's geographically connected to the Grizzlies with nothing to stop you walking to it. The only way I see it keeping you out is the river. We see Morgan in Big Valley at the start of the trailer, meaning that at that point we would be at least in the 2nd half of the game. Now that I think about it, if they got chased over the mountains, Dutch would have little established in this region since he's being forced here. At the later point of the game, Dutch now has a ledger keeping track of debts owed to him, maybe you get sent to the other part of the map to retrieve it.


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#1059

Posted A week ago

Personally I don't believe they will do the off limits map thing, I think you will be able to explore from the beginning just like GTA 5. The world looks amazing and for the to showcase it and not allow you to explore does not make sense, that was more of a old gen thing they had. I don't know reason but.. plus rdr 2 will have online like 5, and they would be able to see other parts that way if it was blocked in story, that therefore takes away from the reveal or unlock.
However you may be correct.

Want to say great job on the analysing of the train and pinpointing, probably spot on because it's very likely that all the scenes are from early on.
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zachsterosu
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#1060

Posted A week ago Edited by zachsterosu, 6 days ago.

There's something I've been thinking about for a while, regarding the map borders. That big Reddit leak mentioned that the game spanned 5 zones, which would likely be the states/territories(also, he'd apparently confirmed the map's validity).  Now for the longest time, I couldn't find a decent way to split up the map evenly, while still having it make sense geographically.  I was thinking that he may have been incorrect in what he remembered, or just had outdated info. The main issue, was that West Elizabeth just seemed to small to be it's own state. I know believe that's because what was in RDR was just part of West Elizabeth.  One of the first things I noticed while playing around with boundary colors, was that Big Valley was almost the same shade as W.E. Most other districts had distinctly different shades with those they bordered. Now this may just be attributed to terrain similarities, but there doesn't seem to be much of that if you look at where The Heartlands and Scarlett Meadows meet. I think Big Valley is the rest of West Elizabeth, and there is a decent amount of evidence in the first game to support this. User RedDeadRenegade actually made a post about this same thing on the Sub-Reddit, and along with the same conclusions I made, found some additional evidence that I'd never picked up on, so I'll just let him explain: 

 

"While scouring over the leaked RDR II map, a thought came across my mind. For those who don't know, the West Elizabeth area from RDR will be returning in the new game. It occurred to me that it's never explicitly stated that Tall Trees and Great Plains are the only areas in the state of West Elizabeth. It always struck me as odd that a state big enough to have its own governor only had one town in it.

So, maybe its possible that some of the new areas will still technically be within the state of West Elizabeth, but just areas we couldn't see in RDR. Like the "Big Valley" area on the new map could fall under West Elizabeth's jurisdiction. I think that would make sense because they look to have similar terrain. I also say this because in RDR, Nastas says that some of the Natives from the local reservation are turning to Dutch. He specifically says local implying its within the state. But there isn't any reservation you can find within the map. Well, on the Big Valley area of the leaked map (which is directly north of the Tall Trees/Great Plains area, and even shares a land border) there's a place called "Painted Sky" which sounds like the name of a reservation to me. In one of the RDR newspapers, they also mention Dutch killing two guys at a homestead "just north" of Blackwater. Well, on the leaked map, there's a homestead directly north of Blackwater. It would make a lot of sense that they were in the same state, especially because the newspaper was reporting on it like it was a local issue. This all makes me think that the state of West Elizabeth is bigger than what we saw in RDR, and that new parts of the map in RDR II will be considered a part of West Elizabeth. Just speculation of course."

 

What we concluded was that there's no way Dutch's gang operated out of a state that has literally one town/bank. Now as for the rest of the map, this made things wayyy easier to dissect. What helped even more was trying to interpret what states/locations R* is trying to interpret with each district. I think I've narrowed it down to just 2 variations. The first makes more sense in terms of land mass, and also if each zone will be it's own state. However, I feel like states continuing across that big of a river is a bit far-fetched. The second makes more sense geographically, and from a game-play standpoint, but the shape and location of some boundary lines seems odd.

 

States Variation 1

gX0iIWO.jpg

 

 

States Variation 2

X4qJTYv.jpg

 

As for the island, I think it might just be another North Yankton, or will simply be included in whatever zone you use to access it.

 

Edit: I've updated the maps with new info...

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#1061

Posted A week ago

When dividing it all into "states" similar to east, south and west you could label the Dakota River as the Mississippi.

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#1062

Posted A week ago

In RDR, there was some suggestion that New Austin and West Elizabeth were the same state. The same governor was mentioned in both areas, and New Austin did not seem to have a governor of its own. Indeed, the game was always vague on what the areas meant.

Of course, it's quite possible that New Austin isn't a state, but just a territory, but now I'm just speculating and it isn't clear what difference it would make. If West Elizabeth is based on West Virginia, that would suggest a state simply called Elizabeth existing. Moreover, if that is the case, then I can see West Elizabeth being tiny.
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#1063

Posted A week ago

In RDR, there was some suggestion that New Austin and West Elizabeth were the same state. The same governor was mentioned in both areas, and New Austin did not seem to have a governor of its own. Indeed, the game was always vague on what the areas meant.

Of course, it's quite possible that New Austin isn't a state, but just a territory, but now I'm just speculating and it isn't clear what difference it would make. If West Elizabeth is based on West Virginia, that would suggest a state simply called Elizabeth existing. Moreover, if that is the case, then I can see West Elizabeth being tiny.

I can say with complete certainty that West Elizabeth isn't West Virginia. The geography doesn't match up at all. I'd say they're both part of Texas and their proximity to Louisiana on this map gives even more weight to that possibility.
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#1064

Posted A week ago

In RDR, there was some suggestion that New Austin and West Elizabeth were the same state. The same governor was mentioned in both areas, and New Austin did not seem to have a governor of its own. Indeed, the game was always vague on what the areas meant.

Of course, it's quite possible that New Austin isn't a state, but just a territory, but now I'm just speculating and it isn't clear what difference it would make. If West Elizabeth is based on West Virginia, that would suggest a state simply called Elizabeth existing. Moreover, if that is the case, then I can see West Elizabeth being tiny.

I can say with complete certainty that West Elizabeth isn't West Virginia. The geography doesn't match up at all. I'd say they're both part of Texas and their proximity to Louisiana on this map gives even more weight to that possibility.


I wasn't talking about the geography, but rather the reasoning for its name. And if that is related, then what I wrote could make sense. I should have made that clear.
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#1065

Posted A week ago

Was there any mention of Fort Wallace in RDR? I know there was Mercer right.

On the leaked map, in "Cumberland Forest" there is "old fort Wallace" as a settlement. Now Fort Wallace was a US Cavalry fort built in Wallace County, Kansas to help defend settlers against Cheyenne and Sioux raids..

Maybe something here?
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#1066

Posted A week ago

 


e."

 

 

States Variation 1

YnhjJoI.jpg

 

 

States Variation 2

mbu2y0z.jpg

 

As for the island, I think it might just be another North Yankton, or will simply be included in whatever zone you use to access it.

 

Howdy folks, haven't posted on these forums since the run up to GTA V but I've been following this thread and felt the need to point out something.

 

I highly doubt "Roanoke Ridge" is going to be anything as far east as Virginia. I get the inclination to label it that way, seeing the name "Roanoke" and how the coast goes up like that but there is just no way that part of the U.S is included here. 

 

Its more likely that Roanoke Ridge is suppose to represent the states on the western bank of the Mississippi (The Annahechee on the map) as they go north from New Orleans. I.E Arkansas and Missouri. This makes more sense to me because it connects the Heartlands (Kansas and Oklahoma) to the Louisiana portion. 

 

If Roanoke ridge was supposed to be Virginia, the map would have to squeeze everything from Arkansas to the coast in that tiny sliver. Why would Rockstar include the entirety of the south anyway? New Orleans I get because its got its own interesting culture and geography and its on the western edge of the south but why would they include anything east of that? Not only would it have to be more populated, it would be a boring landscape that doesn't really add anything to the map. 

 

Also, "the Grizzlies" are clearly the Rockies, that's clear from the name and from looking at them in the trailers. Why would they make a western game that skips over the Rockies and includes the Appalachians (which look completely different from what weve seen btw) instead? 

 

TL;DR: Think of the Annahechee River as the Mississipi River, Roanoke Ridge as Arkansas/Missouri, and the Grizzlies as the Rockies

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zachsterosu
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#1067

Posted 6 days ago Edited by zachsterosu, 6 days ago.

Howdy folks, haven't posted on these forums since the run up to GTA V but I've been following this thread and felt the need to point out something.

I highly doubt "Roanoke Ridge" is going to be anything as far east as Virginia. I get the inclination to label it that way, seeing the name "Roanoke" and how the coast goes up like that but there is just no way that part of the U.S is included here. 

 

Its more likely that Roanoke Ridge is suppose to represent the states on the western bank of the Mississippi (The Annahechee on the map) as they go north from New Orleans. I.E Arkansas and Missouri. This makes more sense to me because it connects the Heartlands (Kansas and Oklahoma) to the Louisiana portion. 

 

If Roanoke ridge was supposed to be Virginia, the map would have to squeeze everything from Arkansas to the coast in that tiny sliver. Why would Rockstar include the entirety of the south anyway? New Orleans I get because its got its own interesting culture and geography and its on the western edge of the south but why would they include anything east of that? Not only would it have to be more populated, it would be a boring landscape that doesn't really add anything to the map. 

 

Also, "the Grizzlies" are clearly the Rockies, that's clear from the name and from looking at them in the trailers. Why would they make a western game that skips over the Rockies and includes the Appalachians (which look completely different from what weve seen btw) instead? 

 

TL;DR: Think of the Annahechee River as the Mississipi River, Roanoke Ridge as Arkansas/Missouri, and the Grizzlies as the Rockies

 

Yeah I think it was just the naming of locations in that area that made me think Virginia. I completely forgot that it's a river, not an Ocean lol. Still not sure about the Grizzlies though, but I could definitely see R* going the Rockies route. I was thinking Appalachian mostly because of the orientation of the range(northeast), but probably also the Roanoke = Virginia theory.  I agree that West of the Mississippi makes way more sense, I was wondering why "Virginia" looked so barren. All that being said, I still stand by the grouping, because I think it's very likely that each state/territory needs to have at least 2 districts. I'm guessing then that Bluegill Marsh is the Arkansas wetlands?

 

Thanks for the input by the way!

 

Edit: I've updated the maps...

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