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The Colin Kaepernick Controversy

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#61

Posted 08 October 2016 - 04:29 AM Edited by Kristian., 08 October 2016 - 04:30 AM.

 

 

 

Police are scared sh*tless of blacks.

Even if they were remotely true, and I'm not sure this is, the attitude of hostility and confrontation is one they've cultured through decades of deliberate discrimination, racial profiling, harassment and state endorsed violence. That said, I'm not aware of blacks bring any statistically greater risk to the lives of police officers than other ethnicities so one wonders why this fear exists other than as a demonstration of racism?
 
Hmmm. Not aware of any statistics pointing in that direction? What about about FBI statistics which show that blacks commit violent crimes in disproportionately large numbers\percentages? You can't pin robberies, shootings, rapes, etc, on cops.
That's not evidence that blacks represent a higher risk of violence towards law enforcement than other ethnicities. It's not even an indicator of ethnicity being an indicator of higher levels of violence; correlation does not equal causation, especially in cases where far stronger correlations exist (like between socioeconomic status).

 

Yes, status is definitely more relevant but my point was that these statistics show that blacks commit violent crimes in disproportionate numbers compared to whites. For instance, 49.4 of murders are committed by blacks (48.2 by whites), which is a huge number given that they are a minority (roughly 13% of the US population). Unless you completely disagree with profiling (in which case I would like to hear why) it kinda makes sense to fear black suspects more than other groups given that they commit most of the murders and are overrepresented in other crimes too.

I don't even know why this turned into a police violence discussion. I guess that protesting the national anthem is a non-issue.


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#62

Posted 08 October 2016 - 08:47 AM

Yes, status is definitely more relevant but my point was that these statistics show that blacks commit violent crimes in disproportionate numbers compared to whites.


Which is entirely irrelevant when the actual subject being addressed is the specific violence perpetrated by certain social groups against law enforcement.

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#63

Posted 08 October 2016 - 03:13 PM

Even in the case that cops aren't aware whether blacks are overrepresented in violence against law enforcement, wouldn't the fact that they are overrepresented in the crime statistics that we are aware of be a viable reason for law enforcement to be under more stress when they encounter a black suspect? Apart from that, another statistic which is unproven is that police kill relatively more blacks than whites in a degree which exceeds the ratio of crimes committed between these groups. I remember a research into that concluding the amount of police killings corresponded to that ratio of crime committed.

But then again, the amount of criminal convictions within these groups is also affected by police targetting certain groups to a higher degree. So what you can see is that though we have knowledge about these issues, the reality of them it is actually very complex, and anyone claiming it is clear cut, any partisan hack on the issue, talks straight out of his ass.


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#64

Posted 08 October 2016 - 03:53 PM

I'm pretty sure statistically cops lack or exhibit less immediate racial biases  and just aren't especially scared of black people. I think they view the black community as inherently opposed to American values or whatever, and view themselves as partially existing to corral black people. 

 

Also, let's be honest: a lot of white Americans have fantasies of shooting burglars or foiling robberies, and its probably black people getting shot in those fantasies. Violence against black people is part of American masculinity. 

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#65

Posted 08 October 2016 - 04:32 PM

 

I'm pretty sure statistically cops lack or exhibit less immediate racial biases  and just aren't especially scared of black people. I think they view the black community as inherently opposed to American values or whatever, and view themselves as partially existing to corral black people.

But then there wouldn't be black cops right? Or are they self hating blacks? "Black officers make up 12% of all local police officers, the survey by the Bureau of Justice Statistics showed. The overall U.S. black population is 13.2%, according to estimates by the U.S. Census Bureau."

Even black people have bias against black people. It's very taboo to admit though. A famous example of someone admitting it is Chris Rock in his 'black people vs niggas' bit. It's so taboo you can only admit it in a comedic context.
 

 

Also, let's be honest: a lot of white Americans have fantasies of shooting burglars or foiling robberies, and its probably black people getting shot in those fantasies. Violence against black people is part of American masculinity.

Sure, defending your property against 'uncivilized colored people', be they native Americans, or African Americans, is a redneck fantasy. The existence of such fantasies go back at least as far as the Roman empire.


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#66

Posted 08 October 2016 - 06:03 PM Edited by Triple Vacuum Seal, 08 October 2016 - 06:16 PM.

Even in the case that cops aren't aware whether blacks are overrepresented in violence against law enforcement, wouldn't the fact that they are overrepresented in the crime statistics that we are aware of be a viable reason for law enforcement to be under more stress when they encounter a black suspect? 

Well of course it's viable.  It's already happening.  But it's far from reasonable.  That's just not how statistical analysis works.  For one, race is socially-constructed and lacks a scientific basis.  So it's already of diminishing relevance.  You have to control for the numerous and more relevant factors that also correlate (and often w/ a much stronger correlation coefficient).

 

Apart from the overrepresentation of blacks committing violent crime being a self-fulfilling prophecy enabled by racist policies, the suspect being black has no bearing on his/her likelihood to commit violent acts.  As sivi pointed out, correlation and causality are not the same thing.  White people like to go camping (statistically overrepresented in the hobby).  But they aren't more likely to go camping because they're white.  The extent to which simply being black serves as the cause for criminality is the extent to which institutional racism has succeeded in steering blacks into the penitentiary.

 

 

In fact, deriving a basis for America's fear of blacks from crime statistics is inherently flawed because not only does this fear predate black America's disproportionate criminality, but also because law enforcement encounters with blacks are very much on the back end of the racism issue in America.  Policing is not where the racial inequality originates.  It's just one of the few remaining arenas where racial bias and tensions still have deadly consequences in the US...so it appears to be at the heart of the issue.  In the modern context, the fatal lack of understanding between black men and white cops can be directly traced to a state-imposed segregation so ingrained that we no longer need the state to uphold it. It's a national stain indeed.


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#67

Posted 08 October 2016 - 06:24 PM Edited by Eutyphro, 08 October 2016 - 06:25 PM.

Well of course it's viable.  It's already happening.  But it's far from reasonable.  That's just not how statistical analysis works.  For one, race is socially-constructed and lacks a scientific basis.  So it's already of diminishing relevance in a technical sense.  You have to control for the numerous and more relevant factors that also correlate (and often w/ a much stronger correlation coefficient).

 

I don't agree. I don't agree with race denialism, and neither do most anti racism activists. Race is a real factor of social and cultural human life, and it's not a delusion. It's a real factor in human identity. Blackness, whiteness, latinoness, etc.. All those are real factors of human identity, and because they are real factors of human identity, people judge one another based on them. What matters is for people to be self critical about it, and that doesn't just matter for white people.
 

Apart from the overrepresentation of blacks committing violent crime being a self-fulfilling prophecy enabled by racist policies, the suspect being black has no bearing on his/her likelihood to commit violent acts.  As sivi pointed out, correlation and causality are not the same thing.  White people like to go camping (statistically overrepresented in the hobby).  But they aren't more likely to go camping because they're white. The extent to which simply being black serves as the cause for criminality is the extent to which institutional racism has succeeded in steering blacks into the penitentiary.

 

Which is a point I've made countless times, so don't make it seem like I haven't. What part of "I don't think anyone here thinks it is caused by race. We're not on Stormfront. But it is related to the social position African Americans are in as a social group, due to slavery, mass incarceration, and the war on drugs" did you really miss?
 

In fact, deriving a basis for America's fear of blacks from crime statistics is inherently flawed because not only does this fear predate black America's disproportionate criminality, but also because law enforcement encounters with blacks are very much on the back end of the racism issue in America. In fact, the fatal lack of understanding between black men and white cops can be directly traced to a state-imposed segregation so ingrained, that we no longer need the state to uphold it.

 

Well, yeah, the situation is self inflicted due to the oppression you seem to ignore I argued for before you did. But judging in the present time, and not based on a historical sense, how much someone fears another, there is a reason people do so on the basis of inductive reasoning about the specific social position that person is in. Men in suits are treated differently than hobos. Those are things to be self critical about. But we can't deny it is based on our real life experiences and knowledge about how the groups of men in suits and homeless people are different.


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#68

Posted 09 October 2016 - 04:24 PM

One thing to keep in mind about America is the idea that we're some big melting pot is only true for large metropolitan areas. When you get into the "heartland" and rural or agricultural areas, the segregation becomes very palpable.  Even in some of the outlying areas of large cities, "ghettos", you're going to find a community comprised mostly of one race or the other. Truth is many Americans will go their whole lives never meeting anyone from another race during their own personal life.  Most people's exposure will be through their work, school, etc. In fact there's some areas where the racial diversity is so low, that the only time they may see a person of color is on a TV.

 

I mean, if you think about states in the "mid-west" and the "heartland" where communities are nearly 100% Caucasian, what is their experience with black people or minorities going to be?  More than likely, a jailer in one of these communities has put more black people in jail than he's ever actually spoken to.  It's not hard to see how the context of that situation would severely effect both parties perception of the other.

 

When you consider that most of America isn't one of those big metropolitan melting pots, it really becomes apparently how and why such a large portion of people can view other races with ignorance.  Black people arguably have it worse than any other ( except perhaps muslims right now ) because the media is literally inundated with images and depictions of blacks being criminal in nature. I'm not saying "There's no positive black role models for black youth to look up to," what I am saying is the media has given us this false impression that the majority of black youths are troubled kids lacking guidance and blah blah blah.  You know it's the kid that is playing around in the projects with a replica pellet gun that gets shot and all the attention of these viewers, but when it's sweeps week and time to go find some feel good story about a kid's high school science project, do they ever show the black kid's? Hell the only time they showed the muslim kid's was when some racist asshole thought it was a bomb!

 

Where I grew up there's hardly any black people, we're mostly 50%/50% Hispanic in white.  One of my first childhood friends was black, but ironically his dad wasn't okay with him hanging out with a white kid.  You'd be surprised with how much Hispanics hold the same ignorant and racist views on blacks as whites do.  It makes it pretty clear that there's a type of manipulation at play, whether intentional or incidental.  I believe it's more incidental, the media just wants ratings and viewers and they don't care what effects it has on society to get it.  Sex, drugs, violence an scandal are what sells, so it really shouldn't be any surprise that Americans growing up today saw 100 images of blacks being arrested and treated like criminals on COPS and Judge Judy to every 1 image of blacks reading children's books on "Reading Rainbow" or saving the butts of a whole crew on "Star Trek". Even when the media doesn't portray blacks in a negative way, it's still often stereotypical.  This is a lot less prevalent in media these days, but think back about twenty years, to where people were talking about how ground-breaking the Cosby show was, this sweater-wearing, no jj-joined-a-gang having black family sitcom was probably the first introduction most American homes had of a "normal" black family.

 

So considering the age of most of the people who effect these issues...  Judges, DAs, prosecutors, and the police....  Do you think any of these people are young enough to have been raised in our more enlightened media presence?  I mean people don't consider the fact that these people are so old that they very likely grew up calling black people "negroes".  All this racial misconception and ignorance has had 20-30 years of gestation. This idea of a new dawn of racial enlightenment in America is total horsesh*t when most of the people that are "the powers to be" grew up watching Archie Bunker and think just like him. Their only link to black culture is The Jeffersons or Good Times.


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#69

Posted 09 October 2016 - 05:05 PM

 


 

I don't agree. I don't agree with race denialism, and neither do most anti racism activists. Race is a real factor of social and cultural human life, and it's not a delusion. It's a real factor in human identity. Blackness, whiteness, latinoness, etc.. All those are real factors of human identity, and because they are real factors of human identity, people judge one another based on them. What matters is for people to be self critical about it, and that doesn't just matter for white people.
 

 

 

 

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding your post here, stating that race is a social construct =/= "racial denialism".


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#70

Posted 09 October 2016 - 05:18 PM Edited by Eutyphro, 09 October 2016 - 05:18 PM.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your post here, stating that race is a social construct =/= "racial denialism".

 

Race denialism is the naive idea that people are able to judge each other completely disregarding such social constructs, and that that is a realistic situation to pursue, in stead of recognizing that social constructs are important to human identity, and that we should both acknowledge that and try being rational about it. The instances where white people pretend to be blind to race are incredibly cringeworthy, and it is generally only white people who feel obligated to pretend such an embarrassing thing.

What I mean by 'being rational about it' is strongly regulating gun ownership, and stopping the war on drugs and mass incarceration. In other words, getting rid of the factors that currently oppress minorities on a massive scale.


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#71

Posted 09 October 2016 - 05:38 PM

Drug and it final justice policy and firearm ownership are kinda trivial compared to the socioeconomic disadvantages and entrenched discrimination engrained into American society. More community justice and less black men are incarcerated for a dime bag of weed is a good thing, but compared to the biggest issues faced by ethnic minorities they're basically bandaids.
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#72

Posted 09 October 2016 - 05:52 PM

compared to the socioeconomic disadvantages

You might be right that income inequality is the most harmful issue that could easily be improved through policy. But I don't agree with you that mass incarceration is a minor issue. It's a massive issue. The massive amount of African American men thrown in jail is a factor that hurts African American communities incredibly bad.


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#73

Posted 09 October 2016 - 06:11 PM

Yeah, but it's an effect of wider socioeconomic issues and entrenched discrimination. Those people wouldn't be being thrown in jail (or at least not in anything like the numbers they are) if they were given actual equality of opportunity.
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#74

Posted 11 October 2016 - 12:58 AM

Ginsburg is back in the spotlight, the most liberal justice of the Supreme Court.  She called Kapernick's protest "really dumb."

 

http://www.espn.com/...sts-really-dumb

 


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#75

Posted 11 October 2016 - 08:59 AM

She'll be dead soon anyway.

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#76

Posted 11 October 2016 - 09:22 PM

yeah she can pretty much f*ck off with that smug sh*t.  It would be one thing if she elaborated.  But instead she resorted to calling him (and even the overall protest) stupid for not engaging in an arguably stupid ritual.


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#77

Posted 11 October 2016 - 10:07 PM

It is incredibly disrespectful to her power as a high ranking state official. How do you think it makes her feel when people don't want to scream the state's praises? 


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#78

Posted 11 October 2016 - 10:31 PM

She's just an old lady.  





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