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The Colin Kaepernick Controversy

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#31

Posted 16 September 2016 - 10:41 PM

I sing over the national anthem; a hearty chorus of The Internationale. 

 

This doesn't need to be analysed. He refused to sing the state's war anthem, he didn't pull a lever bringing down a giant paper mache pig that was then torn apart by a paper mache black panther. He really didn't go out of his way at all to remain in his seat. 

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#32

Posted 17 September 2016 - 08:06 AM

 

 

a country that oppresses black people and people of color.

The real problem with him is living in 1946 or so, not in 2016. USA as a country and as a state is very tolerant to all races. It's individual citizen, cops, presidential candidates etc. that f**ked up in the head.

 

Only a straight white christian male could possibly even think such a thought...

 

Only a troll or a dumb person could've written this.


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#33

Posted 17 September 2016 - 09:09 AM

a country that oppresses black people and people of color.

The real problem with him is living in 1946 or so, not in 2016. USA as a country and as a state is very tolerant to all races. It's individual citizen, cops, presidential candidates etc. that f**ked up in the head.

Only a straight white christian male could possibly even think such a thought...

Only a troll or a dumb person could've written this.

If you think the US no longer has problems with racism and discrimination, you're sadly deluded. In the grand schemes of Western, democratic nations, the US seems to suffer more severely with endemic and institutionalised racism than just about anywhere else I can think of. For instance, it's the only nation I can think of where a political movement that attempts to champion the rights of shopkeepers to refuse to serve people based on their ethnicity or sexuality gains anything other than ridicule.
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#34

Posted 17 September 2016 - 07:04 PM Edited by El Diablo, 17 September 2016 - 07:05 PM.

 

Literally have no idea how the military protects civil liberties?

We never had any 'rights' until Baghdad was leveled in '03.

totally missing the point.

nobody said that the military created civil liberties. I'm not here to defend illegal wars.

 

I'm only using their own words.

many veterans have come out in support of Kapp by stating that the very reason they fight is so that the rest of us can maintain out right to free speech. it's not a direct correlation, it's a sentiment provided by those who have actually served in the military.

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#35

Posted 17 September 2016 - 08:37 PM Edited by Triple Vacuum Seal, 17 September 2016 - 08:52 PM.

"Our troops died for your rights to..." is definitely an oversold adage.  But there's truth to it. 

 

Especially within military circles, I'd imagine the Washington view is that if our troops don't engage in the illegal, but sometimes strategically beneficial wars, then one of the other rival powers will.  So in a very cynical and roundabout way, the commitments of our troops do have a positive impact on our civil rights to some extent...the extent to which we are better off with liberal pseudo-democratic western powers steering current global affairs as opposed to the more authoritarian rival powers.  Better the devil you know I guess.  That's not to say that troops are SJWs.  They tend to fight for personal reasons unrelated to social justice.

 

 

Basically a bunch of rednecks are mad at African Americans for acknowledging their own history in public.  f*ck the general public's demand that we confront racial injustice in a way that allows patriotic white folks to be comfortable.

 
 
TripVac, the problem is that Kap's method of expression doesn't engender sympathy for his cause.  In fact, I would argue it only makes it worse, because then those angry "rednecks" can point the finger and say, "See?  He hates his country.  Screw him and his cause," and thus only reinforcing preconceived notions and stereotypes.  I would argue that it only creates more resentment and division.
 
It's the folks who stick together and take the high moral ground that gather the greatest support, and given that the majority of NFL players stood in unison last Sunday, many were demonstrably in disagreement with how Kapernick chose to demonstrate.

 

 
The more passive forms of protest that we've seen from other players are sensitive to the fans who take issue with bold and direct scrutiny of the US.  This isn't necessarily indicative of a "higher moral ground".  It's merely popular and compliant.  A key issue w/ existing dialogue on race in the US is this lack of frank and direct scrutiny because everyone wants a patriotic Disney/ESPN feel good story that beats around the bushes of racial inequality.  Kap strikes at the heart of this issue because the silent majority of African Americans face immense dissonance every time they pledge to the flag and sing the anthem.  Until now, there really wasn't much of a sustained mainstream discussion on how those who have been failed by the state reconcile that reality with their genuine patriotism.  There are also many Americans who hate the state but love the nation.  Black patriotism is a complex and under-explored facet of the civil rights movement.  So I don't see how Kap will hurt the movement in the long run by shedding light on the matter with civility as he has done.

 
 
Those who are offended by his protest on the basis that it doesn't sit well with the most brainwashed cohort within the US Armed Forces can more or less f*ck off because military culture especially has very little patience for indirect and unassertive scrutiny.  But when it comes to someone else's imperatives, we should keep the observations shallow and move on?  What a reactionary load of sh*t from right wing rednecks.  How about they let black America be patriotic on its own terms given the "off the beaten path" manner in which black America's freedoms were obtained.


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#36

Posted 18 September 2016 - 03:56 AM

In some sense, Kapernick has pretty much sacrificed himself and his career, even if, as you say, it won't hurt the movement.  I suspect that he - even with the best intentions of bringing awareness to his cause - was probably also quite ignorant of the negative blowback it would cause.  He's already too deep into it, though so I don't suspect he'll let up any time soon.

 

I heard him talking about how he's going to get involved, which is good.  Ray Lewis was urging him to step up and do something about it.  He's been one of Kapernick's biggest critics.  Even Jim Brown, Lewis' mentor criticized the method, not the message.  That really needs to be clear, but of course the media is making this a "black and white" issue.

 

 

As for those people using the 'Armed forces argument', even my own patriotic ass doesn't agree.  It's pretty much just circular logic. 

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#37

Posted 18 September 2016 - 04:55 PM

Ray Lewis assisted in a homicide and refuses to tell the police what he knows about it :beerhat:

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#38

Posted 18 September 2016 - 05:25 PM

 

 

Literally have no idea how the military protects civil liberties?

We never had any 'rights' until Baghdad was leveled in '03.

totally missing the point.

nobody said that the military created civil liberties. I'm not here to defend illegal wars.

 

I'm only using their own words.

many veterans have come out in support of Kapp by stating that the very reason they fight is so that the rest of us can maintain out right to free speech. it's not a direct correlation, it's a sentiment provided by those who have actually served in the military.

 

Oh, I know it's an appealing argument to conservatives and veterans and sh*t, don't get me wrong, I just don't particularly care for it as an argument because it's flat-out wrong.

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#39

Posted 21 September 2016 - 03:50 PM

The only people mad about him and other athletes doing this are those who wanna deny racism, sexism, etc exist in America, and wanna keep on with their fantasy that America is the bestest country evar, and if you live here you damn well better believe it! But this is the country of freedom and free speech, and our brave military fights to protect that! But wait.. what? Lol okay.
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#40

Posted 22 September 2016 - 07:58 AM

Anthems and Flags are bullsh*t, and anyone that attributes worth and value to these pathetic outdated totems will be first against the wall come the revolution. 


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#41

Posted 23 September 2016 - 02:07 AM

While I'm fairly conservative, I do agree that Kaepernick has every right to protest. However, his protest will be in vain if we don't do something about the Black vs. Cops issue. It's not a systematic racism issue.
The problem is with the mindset that Blacks have against cops. There's no need to be afraid of the police because of your skin color as long as you don't give them a reason. Let me tell you a secret: cops are terrified of blacks. Reason being because of their stereotypical "gangbanger" attitude, and the way that they are protesting. Burning your cities does not create a positive change. But anyway, cops are scared. They're afraid that every car that they stop could potentially be their last, and when they see something even resembling a gun, they're gonna flip sh*t because they're human. They don't want to die. Some say "cops should think before they shoot." Well, if a cop hesitates, he's likely dead. People don't realize what goes through people's heads in the heat of the moment. If a cop thinks you've got a gun, no matter what race you are, HE WILL SHOOT YOU. HES HUMAN AND HE DOESNT WANT TO DIE ANYMORE THAN YOU DO. A cop friend of mine told me a story about him serving a warrant in an apartment complex, he hears the guy say he's going to get a gun, they get ready to play, they kick the door in and he points his phone at them. What happens? The other officer with my friend shoots the guys finger off. Why? Because he was afraid.

People really need to understand what goes on in an officers head before they begin to judge.

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#42

Posted 23 September 2016 - 02:35 AM Edited by Tchuck, 23 September 2016 - 02:35 AM.

It's not a systematic racism issue.

 

It absolutely is a systematic racism issue. 

 

You had the case where the guy was walking to his car, hands raised up, to pick up his id to show the cops, and there were 4 of them, who weren't even looking for him, who just happened to have a car broken down on the highway on his return from the community college he was studying at. Then, without any warning, one of the officers simply opened fire and murdered him in cold blood. And left him agonizing there, without so much as checking on him to see if he was at least still breathing. Nothing. He wasn't giving the police officers any reason to fear him. He was doing everything by the books. And still got murdered.

 

Then the case of the man lying down with his hands up talking to the police and explaining the situation regarding the mental patient he was taking care of. And he got shot. Luckily, it was in the leg. But he still got shot. How the f*ck is the police officer afraid of a man lying down calmly talking to him?!

 

Then of course the case of the teen boy who was murdered by police officers because he had a toy gun and the police officers were searching for an adult black male and decided to kill him anyway because hey shoot first ask later. And he's black, the guy they were looking for was black, so I guess it all worked out.

 

 

If a cop thinks you've got a gun

 

Ok, so why is it when a cop thinks that you have a gun, and you are white, he will go to extreme lengths to arrest without killing you, but if you are black, he will shoot to kill without asking any questions? Doesn't that sound kind of like, I don't know, racism? Which has become systematic since it's what we see happening all the time? White dude commits a crime, likely to be arrested without being murdered. Black dude is minding his own business, gets killed because hey he may have a gun and he's black and around blacks never relax.

 

 

People really need to understand what goes on in an officers head before they begin to judge.

 

Being a cop is a stressful business, sure. But they are not judge, jury and executioner. The death penalty is only to be applied in very specific cases, by a judge, after investigations and trials determine it so. Not by a f*cking pathetic cop shooting down a guy whose car had broken down because hey maybe he has a gun. 

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#43

Posted 23 September 2016 - 02:46 AM Edited by Tampa, 23 September 2016 - 02:47 AM.

It's not a systematic racism issue.

 
It absolutely is a systematic racism issue. 
 
You had the case where the guy was walking to his car, hands raised up, to pick up his id to show the cops, and there were 4 of them, who weren't even looking for him, who just happened to have a car broken down on the highway on his return from the community college he was studying at. Then, without any warning, one of the officers simply opened fire and murdered him in cold blood. And left him agonizing there, without so much as checking on him to see if he was at least still breathing. Nothing. He wasn't giving the police officers any reason to fear him. He was doing everything by the books. And still got murdered.
 
Then the case of the man lying down with his hands up talking to the police and explaining the situation regarding the mental patient he was taking care of. And he got shot. Luckily, it was in the leg. But he still got shot. How the f*ck is the police officer afraid of a man lying down calmly talking to him?!
 
Then of course the case of the teen boy who was murdered by police officers because he had a toy gun and the police officers were searching for an adult black male and decided to kill him anyway because hey shoot first ask later. And he's black, the guy they were looking for was black, so I guess it all worked out.
 

 
If a cop thinks you've got a gun

 
Ok, so why is it when a cop thinks that you have a gun, and you are white, he will go to extreme lengths to arrest without killing you, but if you are black, he will shoot to kill without asking any questions? Doesn't that sound kind of like, I don't know, racism? Which has become systematic since it's what we see happening all the time? White dude commits a crime, likely to be arrested without being murdered. Black dude is minding his own business, gets killed because hey he may have a gun and he's black and around blacks never relax.
 

 
People really need to understand what goes on in an officers head before they begin to judge.

 
Being a cop is a stressful business, sure. But they are not judge, jury and executioner. The death penalty is only to be applied in very specific cases, by a judge, after investigations and trials determine it so. Not by a f*cking pathetic cop shooting down a guy whose car had broken down because hey maybe he has a gun. 
I see where you're coming from. The Tulsa shooting was bullsh*t, and so was the one in Miami. But it's like I said. Police are scared sh*tless of blacks. On the flip side, blacks are scared sh*tless of the cops. And there's an easy solution to this problem; we weed out the idiotic racist cops. But on the other side, the black community needs to realize that "hey, instead of burning and looting our own cities, let's work together WITH THE POLICE to try and repair our relations." I realize that the black community is furious with cops, but there is no good ending right now, only more violence and death. It's a compromise; The cops deal with their POS officers accordingly, and the black community quits burning down their cities and opens a dialogue to fix the problem. Killing, stealing, and fighting is not a f*cking solution. The sooner people realize this, the sooner we can mend our broken relationships.

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#44

Posted 23 September 2016 - 02:57 AM

Let's not work with police or bourgeois institutions, let's abolish them.


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#45

Posted 23 September 2016 - 07:41 AM

Police are scared sh*tless of blacks.

Even if they were remotely true, and I'm not sure this is, the attitude of hostility and confrontation is one they've cultured through decades of deliberate discrimination, racial profiling, harassment and state endorsed violence. That said, I'm not aware of blacks bring any statistically greater risk to the lives of police officers than other ethnicities so one wonders why this fear exists other than as a demonstration of racism?

But on the other side, the black community needs to realize that "hey, instead of burning and looting our own cities, let's work together WITH THE POLICE to try and repair our relations."

I would argue that at this point the horse has well and truly bolted. You can't expect communities which have been subject to decades of discrimination and violence from the police, a lack of any coherent social and economic support from any level of government and who have reached the point of absolute desperation to suddenly want to engage with their oppressors. The police need to earn the trust of communities, not vice versa.
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#46

Posted 23 September 2016 - 03:02 PM

If you're afraid of the people you serve, you have no business being a cop NON ENTERPRISE.
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#47

Posted 03 October 2016 - 12:31 AM

http://www.nola.com/...ork_bonnab.html.

Police refused to secure a HIGH SCHOOL football game after some players kneeled. This is unnecessary and cops are so extra.
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#48

Posted 03 October 2016 - 01:48 PM

Those cops aren't really doing their job to protect people then, are they? They're doing it for recognition.

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#49

Posted 07 October 2016 - 01:25 PM

Those cops aren't really doing their job to protect people then, are they? They're doing it for recognition.

 

It's not their job to protect people. Their job is to enforce the law.

 

Google "Joe Lozito" if you want to see how much legal obligation police have to protect you.

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#50

Posted 07 October 2016 - 04:40 PM

I don't agree with that ruling... 


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#51

Posted 07 October 2016 - 04:45 PM

Those cops aren't really doing their job to protect people then, are they? They're doing it for recognition.

 
It's not their job to protect people. Their job is to enforce the law.
 
Google "Joe Lozito" if you want to see how much legal obligation police have to protect you.
I know they don't. But that's what many of them claim to do.

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#52

Posted 07 October 2016 - 06:09 PM Edited by Kristian., 07 October 2016 - 06:27 PM.

 

Police are scared sh*tless of blacks.

Even if they were remotely true, and I'm not sure this is, the attitude of hostility and confrontation is one they've cultured through decades of deliberate discrimination, racial profiling, harassment and state endorsed violence. That said, I'm not aware of blacks bring any statistically greater risk to the lives of police officers than other ethnicities so one wonders why this fear exists other than as a demonstration of racism?

 

Hmmm. Not aware of any statistics pointing in that direction? What about about FBI statistics which show that blacks commit violent crimes in disproportionately large numbers\percentages? You can't pin robberies, shootings, rapes, etc, on cops.


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#53

Posted 07 October 2016 - 06:21 PM

 

 

Police are scared sh*tless of blacks.

Even if they were remotely true, and I'm not sure this is, the attitude of hostility and confrontation is one they've cultured through decades of deliberate discrimination, racial profiling, harassment and state endorsed violence. That said, I'm not aware of blacks bring any statistically greater risk to the lives of police officers than other ethnicities so one wonders why this fear exists other than as a demonstration of racism?

 

Hmmm. Not aware of any statistics pointing in that direction? What about about FBI statistics which show that blacks commit violent crimes in disproportionately large numbers\percentages? You can't pin robberies, shootings, rapes, etc, on racist cops.

 

So this is a Klan rally now.  

 

I see.

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#54

Posted 07 October 2016 - 06:29 PM

I phrased that in a weird way. I meant that you can't blame the fact blacks commit a disproportionate amount of violent crimes on cops for their alleged racism. As far as statistics show, the BLM movement is largely overblown.


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#55

Posted 07 October 2016 - 06:33 PM

Those statistics are all based on arrests and it's been conclusively proven the the US Justice system is full of and broken by systemic racism, meaning there are less resources put forth and less arrests made in cases where white people are involved.  Noise complaint in a white neighborhood revels a fight in the backyard?  Alcohol tickets and gruff words, but when ti's in a black neighborhood there are arrests, guns drawn, and often the swat called.  The statistics only help to prove the disproportionate effort put in to "law and order" in regards to black vs white.

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#56

Posted 07 October 2016 - 06:47 PM

No. I specifically mentioned shootings and robberies because these are the sorts of crimes that you can't get away with and the fault lies solely on the perpetrator. There's no way you can pin these on cops or institutionalized racism in the law department. That's just delusional.


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#57

Posted 07 October 2016 - 06:57 PM

It's not delusional, it's the way it is.  Racist to the extreme, and proven a thousand times over.

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#58

Posted 07 October 2016 - 07:16 PM

 

Police are scared sh*tless of blacks.

Even if they were remotely true, and I'm not sure this is, the attitude of hostility and confrontation is one they've cultured through decades of deliberate discrimination, racial profiling, harassment and state endorsed violence. That said, I'm not aware of blacks bring any statistically greater risk to the lives of police officers than other ethnicities so one wonders why this fear exists other than as a demonstration of racism?
 
Hmmm. Not aware of any statistics pointing in that direction? What about about FBI statistics which show that blacks commit violent crimes in disproportionately large numbers\percentages? You can't pin robberies, shootings, rapes, etc, on cops.
That's not evidence that blacks represent a higher risk of violence towards law enforcement than other ethnicities. It's not even an indicator of ethnicity being an indicator of higher levels of violence; correlation does not equal causation, especially in cases where far stronger correlations exist (like between socioeconomic status).

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#59

Posted 07 October 2016 - 07:34 PM

It's not evidence that African Americans cause more violence towards law enforcement than other ethnic groups, but it would be highly peculiar if their overrepresentation in almost all crime statistics, like those related to shootings and murder, would have an exception on the topic of violence against law enforcement.
 

 

 It's not even an indicator of ethnicity being an indicator of higher levels of violence; correlation does not equal causation

I don't think anyone here thinks it is caused by race. We're not on Stormfront. But it is related to the social position African Americans are in as a social group, due to slavery, mass incarceration, and the war on drugs. Cops who use illegitimate force against blacks don't always do so on the basis of an idea that race is a cause of crime. I think they generally don't. They do so because of stress caused by the real world correlation of ethnicity and crime. And to a degree we all do that. None of us have no emotional response whatsoever when we see a black kid with a hoodie at three o clock at night entering a gas station looking around suspiciously. We all have racial bias based on correlation. What matters is how we handle that as a society. How we stop oppressing black people into hopeless social positions. How we handle gun ownership.


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#60

Posted 07 October 2016 - 08:41 PM

It's not evidence that African Americans cause more violence towards law enforcement than other ethnic groups, but it would be highly peculiar if their overrepresentation in almost all crime statistics, like those related to shootings and murder, would have an exception on the topic of violence against law enforcement.


I'm not sure it would be peculiar. It's not uncommon for particular demographic groups to be massively overrepresented in particular subsections of criminal activity, or in criminal activity against other demographics.
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