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And Russia Is Hosting The 2018 World Cup?

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Uncle Sikee Atric
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#1

Posted 12 June 2016 - 09:09 AM Edited by Sikee Atric, 12 June 2016 - 09:11 AM.

On the 11th of June, at the Euro Group match between England and Russia, there were ugly scenes as a group of Russian supporters charged and invaded a section of the stadium where England fans were.

The English fans retreated and several were injured as they climbed over a fence to evade the fighting.

In the few days before, leading up to the match, there had been several skirmishes involving English, Russian and French groups. The skirmishes continued into the evening and UEFA are investigating.

Were the French police at fault for placing too much emphasis on terrorism security, are the English or Russian fans to blame, or are the French antagonisers the real problem?

Also what happens next in the coming matches? I personally wouldn't be keen to be a Slovakian or Welsh supporter right now, given the problem the Russians have with hooliganism at it's matches, doubly so since the Russian supporters also caused trouble at the Euro 2012 tournament, clashing with Czech Republic supporters there.

Come 2018, would you even consider Russia as a welcoming venue to host a World Cup?

sivispacem
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#2

Posted 12 June 2016 - 09:40 AM

From what I've seen, most of the blame lies at the feet of the England and Russia supporters. The French response to disorder looks pretty graphic to us, but mass bombardment with tear gas is basically crowd control 101 in continental Europe. I don't really buy the "French antagonisers", most of the footage seems to be groups of drunken shirtless England supporters hurling bottles at riot police and scrapping amongst themselves. Way to conform to stereotypes.

But no, I don't consider Russia to be a particularly welcoming prospective host for the 2018 World Cup. Then again I think that's an entirely separate issue. I don't think the Russian state is actively promoting hooliganism abroad and I doubt they'd tolerate it at their own event, given their burning desire to be seen as tolerant and welcoming by the international community. I'm fully expecting heavily armed police on every street corner and a zero tolerance attitude to violence backed up with plenty of good old police aggression and questionable post-detention behaviour. I think where Russia might struggle is in providing the level of customer service that is expected in most European nations.

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#3

Posted 12 June 2016 - 09:49 AM

Also some of the Russian belligerents appear to be Neo-Nazis. I find this both Ironic and Troubling, as the Nazis killed millions of Russians in World War II.


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#4

Posted 12 June 2016 - 10:02 AM

Russia has a real problem with Fascism. It's endorsed at very high levels. People like Aleksandr Dugin, instead of being stigmatised, are actively welcomed and embraced by the Russian political leadership. The current narrative of expansionism and Russian driven Eurasianism mirror National Socialism quite handily. They even have a political movement called "National Bolshevism" which hybrids Stalinist authoritarianism with eugenics, antisemitism and Eastern Slavic ethnic exceptionism.
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Stephan90
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#5

Posted 12 June 2016 - 10:50 AM

Also some of the Russian belligerents appear to be Neo-Nazis. I find this both Ironic and Troubling, as the Nazis killed millions of Russians in World War II.

 

They can simply take the ideology and rename the teams ... or maybe they were Putin's special forces :ph34r:


SouthLand
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#6

Posted 12 June 2016 - 11:46 AM

Let's get this straight because i have been involved in the ultra movement and i know a lot about the subject.

 

In Europe, MOST football clubs have Ultras that position themselves more in the "Right wing" than the left wing. However, not all countries follow the same category inside the right wing.

 

Russia for example follows more what Sivispacem said, also knowed as "Third Position" ( https://en.wikipedia.../Third_Position). Which is a basically right-wing cultural views and radical left-wing economic views. In other words, they hate the right wing capitalist and Liberalism at the same time they hate communism. Although there are a lot of Neo-Nazis make a up a big portion as well. Poland for example is more of Neo-Nazi anti communist Only and countries like Spain if more of a right wing with a Francoist flavor.

 

I don't like what happened yesterday, but one has to agree that the ultra movement and hooligans are the ones that make ambiance in a stadium and make them look and sound amazing.


Uncle Vlad
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#7

Posted 12 June 2016 - 11:46 AM Edited by Uncle Vlad, 12 June 2016 - 11:54 AM.

Also some of the Russian belligerents appear to be Neo-Nazis. I find this both Ironic and Troubling, as the Nazis killed millions of Russians in World War II.

 

The Nazis in Germany from 1933-45 and the so-called "Neo-Nazis" today are two pairs of shoes. Although there are similarities, their goals are different. Sure, they often use symbols of the Nazis, but I doubt that they know the differences between them and the Nazis, because most of them are just ignorant people. For example, many of today´s Neo-Nazis hate the Islam and muslims. But Hitler was very fond of some aspects of the Islam, especially what he heard about the promise of paradise if somebody dies a hero´s death (he was obsessed with the "Heldentod" and because of that he said that Christianity is a weak religion, but I doubt that he ever took a closer look at the Islam). And the SS had the "Handschar" Mountain Division, consisting of Bosnian volunteers.

 

In short, the Neo-Nazis or fascists among those who caused all the trouble yesterday are just some dumb f*cks who don´t know nothing about history. They only want to feel superior and to cause trouble.That´s what made the Nazis so dangerous, they had too many intelligent people. Evil and intelligent people are the worst.

 

Apart from that, hooliganism isn´t just a Russian problem. It has always been a problem and I´m affraid it´ll stay a problem. So I think the World Cup 2018 in Russia can be a success if they manage to keep those idiots under control. Hooliganism is also a problem here in Germany (I remember the awful pictures from the World Cup 1998 when German hooligans have beaten a French cop almost to death), nonetheless, the World Cup 2006 was a success, because security forces showed no tolerance towards hooligans and other vandals.


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#8

Posted 12 June 2016 - 12:15 PM Edited by GTA_stu, 12 June 2016 - 12:17 PM.

In the streets it's harder to control, but the violence inside the stadium certainly should have been prevented by the police. Yes the actual hooligans shouldn't have been doing what they were doing, but the police are supposed to stop that. There weren't enough police and the barriers between fans were not adequate. The security inside was virtually non existent. UEFA are "probing" the Russian FA and they should, but the French authorities should take a lot of the flack too for completely neglecting their duties. 

 

I think the WC in Russia will be fine, the Russian authorities will deal with it better than the French, who don't seem to have the man power or basic organisational awareness to actually ensure security at the venues, or maintain order in the streets. They're stretched too thin and completely unprepared. Euro 2012 didn't have many issues, and everyone was worried about the Polish and Ukrainian hooligan culture, which is similar to Russia's. The Polish and Ukrainian authorities dealt with it all well. 


Failure
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#9

Posted 12 June 2016 - 12:47 PM Edited by Failure, 12 June 2016 - 12:47 PM.

 

Also some of the Russian belligerents appear to be Neo-Nazis. I find this both Ironic and Troubling, as the Nazis killed millions of Russians in World War II.

 

The Nazis in Germany from 1933-45 and the so-called "Neo-Nazis" today are two pairs of shoes. Although there are similarities, their goals are different. Sure, they often use symbols of the Nazis, but I doubt that they know the differences between them and the Nazis, because most of them are just ignorant people. For example, many of today´s Neo-Nazis hate the Islam and muslims. But Hitler was very fond of some aspects of the Islam, especially what he heard about the promise of paradise if somebody dies a hero´s death (he was obsessed with the "Heldentod" and because of that he said that Christianity is a weak religion, but I doubt that he ever took a closer look at the Islam). And the SS had the "Handschar" Mountain Division, consisting of Bosnian volunteers.

 

 

 

There was also a significant deal of collaboration between the Arab world and the Nazi regime, though most of this was out of convenience. 


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#10

Posted 12 June 2016 - 09:18 PM

Qatar is arresting (foreign) women who got drugraped because they drank alcohol and "had sex" outside of marriage, not to mention the 200+ dead construction workers. Russia should be the least of your concerns
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SouthLand
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#11

Posted 12 June 2016 - 10:49 PM

Qatar is arresting (foreign) women who got drugraped because they drank alcohol and "had sex" outside of marriage, not to mention the 200+ dead construction workers. Russia should be the least of your concerns

 

The only thing Russia is a pain in the as* with, is the VISA to get in. You can't get one directly online like the one for the US. You have to go to your nearest embassy or consulate and spend the morning there. That is not a problem if you live in my country's biggest cities like my hometown Barcelona. But if you live on the Canary Islands or in the south, you have to get a plane ticket and travel to Madrid, which is not cool.


Street Mix
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#12

Posted 13 June 2016 - 01:29 AM Edited by Street Mix, 13 June 2016 - 01:42 AM.

The following day, some russians (allegedly residing in Germany) dressed as Germans and attacked Ukrainian fans. Just fans, not even hooligans (ultras). Police reacted quickly so no mass clashes occured although 2 Ukrainian fans were hospitalized.

Some news media reported they were german hooligans but witnesses reported russian-speaking attackers.

 

Qatar is arresting (foreign) women who got drugraped because they drank alcohol and "had sex" outside of marriage, not to mention the 200+ dead construction workers. Russia should be the least of your concerns

Russia is arresting people for posts in social networks, kills journalists and opposition politicians, not to mention 5000+ dead Ukrainians. And that's the tip of the iceberg. Qatar with all its flaws looks like Denmark or Finland (or whatever the most democratic and free country there is) compared to Russia.


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#13

Posted 13 June 2016 - 10:26 AM Edited by dice, 13 June 2016 - 11:12 AM.

While Russias imperialistic tendencies aren't something to be proud about to claim that Qatars level of democracy is comparable to any European state is just plain ignorant. The amount of hypocrisy in this bid is absurd at best, an organisation which claims to stand for, and I quote, mutual respect, regardless of gender, race, ethnic origin, sexual orientation, religion or class decides to host one of the biggest sporting events in a country where homosexuality is illegal, where migrant workers, which compose 83% of the population, are treated as second class citizens, some even being denied leaving the country, where women under sharia law are also more or less second tier citizens and where apostasy is punishable by death, most likely by stoning since that's one of the forms of capital punishment there. Various media report that over 1200 workers died in the construction of the stadia, with Fifa doing nothing to impose stricter safety regulations. You could claim they're indirectly responsible for the deaths of those workers.
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sivispacem
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#14

Posted 13 June 2016 - 12:26 PM

Well you say that, but Russia ranks significantly worse than Qatar for freedom from corruption and financial freedoms according to the Heritage Institute:

http://www.heritage....mfromcorruption
http://www.heritage....inancialfreedom

A hybrid system used by the EIU for categorising nations based on political and social factors plus pularlism ranks them about as bad as each other- Russia at 132 and Qatar at 134:

https://en.m.wikiped...Democracy_Index

To put that into context, Cuba, Iraq, Myanmar and Nigeria outrank both, some by a significant margin.

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#15

Posted 13 June 2016 - 01:11 PM Edited by dice, 13 June 2016 - 01:12 PM.

I in no doubt believe the 2018 bid had ties with corruption, former Fifa officials confirmed that France 98, Germany 06 and South Africa 10 were (atleast partialy) influenced by bribery, plus there's that 02 refereeing debacle. And even though some prominent figures were put to rest by recent investigations things dont really look they're going to change anytime soon.

This whole organization is just one giant fiasco
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Stephan90
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#16

Posted 13 June 2016 - 01:16 PM Edited by Stephan90, 13 June 2016 - 01:19 PM.

Pretty frustrating how a private corrupt club can claim to host the one and only official football championships for national teams.


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#17

Posted 13 June 2016 - 04:28 PM

Green Street Hooligans IRL


acmilano
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#18

Posted 25 June 2016 - 12:56 PM Edited by acmilano, 25 June 2016 - 12:57 PM.

Quatar isn't some nice country. They are well into financing terrorism in Middle East and the world:

 

http://www.thefiscal...y-Could-Help-US

 

http://www.washingto...e-u.s.-approach

 

https://newrepublic....nown-terrorists

 

http://www.gatestone...qatar-terrorism

 

http://www.telegraph...-discloses.html

 

 

The two Qataris — Khalifa Muhammad Turki al-Subaiy and Abd al-Rahman bin Umayr al-Nuaymi — are living in Doha, the country’s capital, and are free to go as they please, according to David Cohen, the US Treasury under-secretary for terrorism and financial intelligence.

  •  

Mr Cohen has accused Qatar and its near neighbour Kuwait of being “permissive jurisdictions for terrorist financing” but until now the fate of a number of money men — identified as Specially Designated Global Terrorists by the US government — has not been known.

Qatar has refused to say what has happened to al-Subaiy, al-Nuaymi and others on US and United Nations terrorism sanctions lists.

The Telegraph has asked over a number of weeks about the status of the men and Qatar has refused to answer.

But during a question and answer session following a keynote speech in Washington, a transcript of which has been obtained by The Telegraph, Mr Cohen said: “There are US- and UN-designated terrorist financiers in Qatar that have not been acted against under Qatari law. There’s Khalifa al-Subaiy — and more recently, Abd al-Nuaymi, who we designated last December, the UN designated in August.” Mr Cohen added that both men were residents in Qatar.

The US Treasury said it could not disclose further classified information on the men.

Both al-Nuaymi and al-Subaiy are understood to be well-connected to Qatar’s ruling elite.

They are also accused of raising millions of dollars for al-Qaeda and other jihadist groups. Al-Qaeda and Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isil) have announced a deal to fight together in Iraq and in Syria.

Al-Subaiy, 49, a former Qatari Central Bank employee, was blacklisted as a terrorist fundraiser as long ago as 2008 but still appears to be heavily involved in a jihadist network.

According to the official American report, al-Subaiy was identified as “a Qatar-based terrorist financier and facilitator who has provided financial support to, and acted on behalf of, al-Qaeda senior leadership, including senior al-Qaeda leader Khalid Sheikh Mohammed (KSM) prior to KSM’s capture in March 2003”.

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed has been named as the “principal architect of the 9/11 attacks” and is being held in Guantánamo Bay.

He had lived freely in Qatar for a number of years in the Nineties despite being wanted even at that stage by the US for terror offences.

Al-Nuaymi, a former president of the Qatar Football Association, is accused of being one of the world’s most prolific terrorist fundraisers, accused of sending more than £1.25 million a month to al-Qaeda jihadists in Iraq and hundreds of thousands of pounds to Syria.

He was designated a terrorist in the US last December and added to a British sanctions list only in October this year.

It is alleged that both men’s links to senior figures in Qatar has helped keep them out of jail in recent years and off Qatar’s own terrorist sanctions list. The country introduced a designated terrorist list but to date not a single individual has been put on it.


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#19

Posted 25 June 2016 - 01:35 PM

Why do you think NOT a single islamist terrorist organization do attacks on countries like: UAE, Arabia Saudi, Bahrein, Qatar or Kuwait? They are not going to bite the hand that feeds them.


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#20

Posted 25 June 2016 - 02:39 PM

Eh? There have been numerous Salafist terrorist attacks in both Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.

Failure
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#21

Posted 25 June 2016 - 02:41 PM Edited by Failure, 25 June 2016 - 02:42 PM.

Why do you think NOT a single islamist terrorist organization do attacks on countries like: UAE, Arabia Saudi, Bahrein, Qatar or Kuwait? They are not going to bite the hand that feeds them.

 

I see your point, but you are wrong.

 

https://en.wikipedia..._Mosque_seizure

 

 

Saudi Arabia is officially taking a very firm stance against IS cells in its country. It tends to be rich noble families within the gulf states sending money to salafist groups, not so much the states themselves. 


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#22

Posted 25 June 2016 - 02:54 PM

 

Why do you think NOT a single islamist terrorist organization do attacks on countries like: UAE, Arabia Saudi, Bahrein, Qatar or Kuwait? They are not going to bite the hand that feeds them.

 

I see your point, but you are wrong.

 

https://en.wikipedia..._Mosque_seizure

 

 

Saudi Arabia is officially taking a very firm stance against IS cells in its country. It tends to be rich noble families within the gulf states sending money to salafist groups, not so much the states themselves. 

 

Why not arrest those rich  families? And freeze their assets in banks,like with Ghadaffi? Or threten with sanctions to those countries to do that themselves? Or just send them drones? I know that money is important in this world but it cannot buy licence to do everything you want.


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#23

Posted 25 June 2016 - 03:04 PM

 

 

Why do you think NOT a single islamist terrorist organization do attacks on countries like: UAE, Arabia Saudi, Bahrein, Qatar or Kuwait? They are not going to bite the hand that feeds them.

 

I see your point, but you are wrong.

 

https://en.wikipedia..._Mosque_seizure

 

 

Saudi Arabia is officially taking a very firm stance against IS cells in its country. It tends to be rich noble families within the gulf states sending money to salafist groups, not so much the states themselves. 

 

Why not arrest those rich  families? And freeze their assets in banks,like with Ghadaffi? Or threten with sanctions to those countries to do that themselves? Or just send them drones? I know that money is important in this world but it cannot buy licence to do everything you want.

 

 

 

 

-The "license to do everything you want" has been going on for centuries.

 

I suggest you watch this movie

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acmilano
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#24

Posted 25 June 2016 - 03:11 PM

:^: Good movie suggestion. But depressive situation in RL





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