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Veganism, animal rights & factory farming

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Eutyphro
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#61

Posted 04 May 2016 - 03:23 PM Edited by Eutyphro, 04 May 2016 - 03:23 PM.

I do think, to be fair, that if you're going to consume animal products you should have to kill an animal yourself at some point. We like to pretend that we're not perturbed by these acts and our desire for a good steak or bacon outweighs the sacrifice of the animal. Which is, you know, debateable. But unless you've cut off a head or shot or bolted an animal you don't really stand in any position to rebuff the question of ethics.

 

This is a very common argument, and I think there is some value to it. The issue though is that killing an animal generally should be done professionally. Brutally killing an animal as an 'amateur' doesn't strengthen an argument in favor of meat eating. It actually does the opposite. I would have no issue killing animals in rational, effective, respectful manners if I were trained to do so professionally. 

 

 

If it were a survival situation I'd kill a man, too

 

Like.. under what circumstances/for which reasons? To have scarce resources for yourself? 

 


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#62

Posted 04 May 2016 - 04:17 PM

We could play around all day with the killing analogy - but if my life were directly in danger because of the malicious actions of an aggressor. Or if we were invaded or something. The point was to illustrate that extreme necessities do not reflect our daily lives.


As for the professional/amateur killing, trust me, there are very few people who can kill an animal without putting it through an ounce of suffering. It's a fantasy to believe the animals are any more coddled by 'professionals' than your average layman with a bolt gun or a sharp knife or even a rifle. A hunter rarely kills with their first shot. A fish always fights the line. However, perhaps this concern could be placated with a simple visit to a local slaughterhouse to pay witness instead.
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Eutyphro
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#63

Posted 04 May 2016 - 04:41 PM

I've seen the euthanization of my dog. That's as close as it gets for me. I've seen video's of slaughters. When the life of a conscious being is ended, that is not something to be light hearted about. But that it's confronting and intense doesn't mean it is intrinsically wrong. Death in general is a heavy subject. These are all reasons why people should be trained to do these things rationally, effectively and respectfully, which is a practice occurring far too rarely.


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#64

Posted 04 May 2016 - 06:27 PM

Yes, and to underline, the point to my argument is that confronting these heavy subjects promotes intelligent ethical discussion of them, rather than sweeping the issues under the rug and pretending that meat comes from grocery stores.

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Eutyphro
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#65

Posted 04 May 2016 - 06:42 PM Edited by Eutyphro, 04 May 2016 - 06:42 PM.

What is interesting is that this also relates to discussions about the division of labor. It is due to the division of labor that most of society see meat as something that lies in plastic in the supermarket, without ever being in touch with how the product originates. An aspect of an egalitarian society should be that every citizen is involved with the norms of food production through active participation.


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#66

Posted 04 May 2016 - 06:58 PM Edited by el_make, 04 May 2016 - 07:29 PM.

I brought it up when at a camp site there was going to be some grilling of sausages - was asked if I wanted any; I declined and told them that I am a vegan - and am having none of that. Ate bread instead. 

Yes, it is a form of activism for me; trying to get the word out on what's happening "behind the scenes". Helping out in ways that I can. Always expanding to different stuff.

I do think that every conscious person (that is if you're not in a comatose) knows from what their meat comes from--it's the how it's produced that might not be clear to them, if they haven't watched any documentaries and such. 

And no I'm not going door-to-door like a Mormon would like a poster here suspected. 

 

Off-topic: This was the national park I was talking about. Beautiful place. Love nature also. 

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#67

Posted 04 May 2016 - 07:10 PM Edited by el_make, 04 May 2016 - 07:23 PM.

To put my two cents in this discussion of killing an animal yourself - I say "no", I would not.

 

This because I don't want to, but because I don't have to either.

 

I choose not to based on my personal morals and ethics, but because a human can live on a vegan diet alone - and there are so many alternative options out there if you want to use 'em. 


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#68

Posted 04 May 2016 - 07:12 PM

Heh. Door to door veganism would be something.

 

I guess I'm overplaying the concept that people don't know where their meat comes from. I'm not under the impression that some folk literally don't understand that the meat they're eating was once a living breathing animal. I do think, however, that many, if not most, people have completely removed any thought of that animal - as a life that was sacrificed - from their minds when it comes to cooking and eating. I mean, when I have sausage or burgers I don't even think of it as flesh, and I consider myself to be pretty in-tune with this stuff.

 

Again, the point I'm making with suggesting the everyman kill his own food (or bear witness to the slaughter) is to reenforce the gravity of that decision. Obviously a vegan would not do this. :p I would ask, however, that you grow some god-damned vegetables.  This year my tomatoes are already about 3 weeks early, it's gonna be a good one.


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#69

Posted 04 May 2016 - 07:21 PM Edited by Failure, 04 May 2016 - 07:24 PM.

Vegan diet I simply could not do. Tofu and quorn are pretty nice to be fair. My mother would do couscous (real couscous), tofu, lentils and all that when I was a youngster. I still enjoy food like that. Nowadays I eat a lot of eggs as they're a good, cheap source of protein. I also always have milk in tea (though never in coffee). The only meat I have nowadays is lean chicken, but that's more because of expense. A steak would be most welcome.

 

 

 

 

I brought it up when at a camp site there was going to be some grilling of sausages - was asked if I wanted any; I declined and told them that I am a vegan - and am having none of that. Ate bread instead.

 

That's fine and everything, but you could have just said "no, thank you". I remember eating breakfast with friends of mine at the airport once. One guy was an orthodox Jew and everyone else had bacon, bread and butter and sausages with their breakfasts. He didn't feel the need to chime in and point out the error of their ways (most of them were Jews as well). I felt it more appropriate just to have scrambled eggs so not to offend him, but he didn't care and was fine with everybody.

 

I mean at a camp site you're going to get barbeques. The only thing bringing up your veganism there is going to do is make everyone else feel bad. By all means campaign about it in a formal setting, but I don't see how it helps to bring up the barbarism of the meat industry while people are actually tucking into a burger.


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#70

Posted 04 May 2016 - 09:38 PM

It's a challenge for people to talk about their ethical and political ideas without being condescending or resentful to others. You can notice that on this board all too often. And the same thing is true for vegans.


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#71

Posted 05 May 2016 - 07:27 AM Edited by Failure, 05 May 2016 - 08:56 AM.

It's about context. Doing it on a message board is fine, but doing it at a barbecue while people are eating is different.

 

 

I've no problem with vegetarians (my mother is a vegetarian and was a vegan for a few years). I actually respect it as a health choice, and I honestly respect the moral integrity of people do it because they care about animals and want to prove that by deed.

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#72

Posted 05 May 2016 - 08:47 AM

I am very much an omnivore and will remain so all my life.

I can eat meat substitutes and find them tasty, if they are used correctly (Tofu is a pig to work with, since it has very little flavour, while Quorn is much easier). But to me, they wouldn't stop me using meat as an ingredient in meals. Even though I found it difficult to stomach at first, I have even tried the future protein sources of insects, they ain't so bad as a first try if they ain't in insect form, burgers are burgers....

So long as the animal involved is treated fairly, I have no concerns with abbatoirs as well. My feelings on animal rights though are just and my concerns are in the much murkier areas of animal testing.

While I see and understand the benefits of medical testing, I understand the ethical issues and I see the benefits of improved computer simulations and cellular testing, so animal testing is becoming far less mainstream than before. However, cosmetic testing is clearly wrong and shouldn't be allowed at any stage.

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#73

Posted 05 May 2016 - 01:49 PM

When you say 'will remain so all my life' is that a political statement? Can you qualify that for me? Currently reads like impassive stubbornness, and I'm not sure if that's really what you mean. For instance, if the absurd happens and the government bans the slaughter of animals - would you leave the country?

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#74

Posted 05 May 2016 - 02:27 PM Edited by Sikee Atric, 05 May 2016 - 02:27 PM.

If the slaughter of animals was restricted I would have to live with that decision.

But I enjoy meat and always will do. My family were butchers and I have been to abbatoirs in Colne, Manchester, Bradford and Leeds and seen the processes involved in the initial stages of meat butchery.

I would rather it was performed in legal and regulated sites, as all those sites are (and were now).

I just enjoy meat too much to totally ignore it, but I have other medical conditions that means a balanced diet is much more important than guzzling just burgers and a little bit of lettuce in the bun. To me, I enjoy it in fair portions, not to totally stuff my face.
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#75

Posted 09 May 2016 - 10:07 PM

My wife is a vegetarian of nearly 40 years (without wavering)...she is not vegan. We had a conversation last night trying to figure out why vegan folks won't drink dairy/cow milk. If the cow is not part of a slaughter farm and the milk is gathered in a super humane way from a well loved cow - what would the reason be?

Also...even though eggs are gross in general when you think about it; why won't vegans eat eggs that are from free range chickens that are well treated. After all the eggs are not fertilized and they are from well loved free range chickens that are just doing their thing.

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#76

Posted 09 May 2016 - 10:47 PM Edited by (junk), 09 May 2016 - 10:48 PM.

My wife is a vegetarian of nearly 40 years (without wavering)...she is not vegan. We had a conversation last night trying to figure out why vegan folks won't drink dairy/cow milk. If the cow is not part of a slaughter farm and the milk is gathered in a super humane way from a well loved cow - what would the reason be?

Also...even though eggs are gross in general when you think about it; why won't vegans eat eggs that are from free range chickens that are well treated. After all the eggs are not fertilized and they are from well loved free range chickens that are just doing their thing.

 A cow has to be impregnated to give milk so space issues come up with keeping males,  and it's very likely that the babies (the male ones) will sent to be killed even on "humane" farms. 

 

As for chickens, it is my understanding that they lose quite a lot of nutrients laying eggs and when you take away that egg it forces them to lay more thus damaging, and shortening their lifespan quite a bit. As for "cage free" and what not is a whole bunch of BS.

http://www.humanesoc...egg_labels.html

http://www.npr.org/s...racked-up-to-be

 

EDIT: also some vegans believe that if the process is not consensual is it morally wrong which is another reason why they do not consume these products. 

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Uncle Sikee Atric
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#77

Posted 10 May 2016 - 12:17 AM Edited by Sikee Atric, 10 May 2016 - 12:18 AM.

A cow has to be impregnated to give milk so space issues come up with keeping males,  and it's very likely that the babies (the male ones) will sent to be killed even on "humane" farms.


In the EU, males calves are not treated in the same way they used to be.

Nearly all are eventually slaughtered, yes. But veal crates and factory farming using those techniques have been outlawed. So farmers took to castrating male calves to lower their hormones levels and make them more placid, then they would spend a year on the fields grazing, before being sent to market. This trade was nearly half of all beef production within the EU for a substantial period and gave the male calves a decent quality of life for an extended period, rather than a few months barely able to move and being force fed.

But the English farming community came up with another option to relaunch veal with a new and more 'humane' approach. Rose Veal was first tried about a decade ago and has become very popular in Western European Restaurants, plus you can source it from butchers.

In this production, the calf is separated from it's mother around the same time as normal, but the farmer takes it into a new, communal enclosure and keeps offering it bottled milk for another month. Then, rather than castration, it is released into the field to graze for another three months before being taken to market at six months old. (This production technique is little different than 'New Season Lamb' if anyone is asking.).

So while male calves do eventually end up on the fork, at least huge steps have been taken to ensure they do get a decent quality of life while they can. No one wants to see veal crates again!

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#78

Posted 13 May 2016 - 05:56 AM

 

 

EDIT: also some vegans believe that if the process is not consensual is it morally wrong which is another reason why they do not consume these products. 

 

This is the reason for me yes - and the reason in general for other vegans too I'm sure.

 

I still believe that when it comes to dairy & eggs - and no matter how "humane" or "free range" the production might be labeled as - the animals are still used as a resource to make profit. Their given those names probably to reassure the consumer and give them these positive mental images.

 

Also - why was my previous post deleted? Was it because of just a one word post here at D&D?


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#79

Posted 13 May 2016 - 06:23 AM

 

 

 

EDIT: also some vegans believe that if the process is not consensual is it morally wrong which is another reason why they do not consume these products. 

 

This is the reason for me yes - and the reason in general for other vegans too I'm sure.

 

I still believe that when it comes to dairy & eggs - and no matter how "humane" or "free range" the production might be labeled as - the animals are still used as a resource to make profit. Their given those names probably to reassure the consumer and give them these positive mental images.

 

Also - why was my previous post deleted? Was it because of just a one word post here at D&D?

 

 

Yes. We don't allow one word posts here at D&D.

 

On the topic at hand, if you're concerned about the "moral" or "ethical" reasons regarding consumption of meat, do you also ensure everything else you consume is also morally and ethically proper? The computer you're using now, the clothes you buy, all that you consume likely had its parts assembled by conditions akin to slave labour in a far away country you probably never heard of, where people are used as a resource to make a profit. Do they matter as well? 

 

This is what is most unappealing to me about the vegan movement; the ethical and moral argument, which is just hypocrisy. You care for animals, you think they have feelings and we shouldn't be killing them to eat them. That's fine. But to go out saying it's a "moral and ethical" choice is bullsh*t when you go around consuming other products of moral and ethical dubiousness. 

 

As for me, I don't eat beef because I think it's a waste of space used for grazing and I don't like the taste. I eat pork in the form of bacon only because it is one of the most delicious inventions mankind has ever discovered, the main one being cheese. And I love chicken. Hate eating salads, and eat vegetables in the stuff I prepare when they are nicely accompanied by other stuff, usually animal products of some sort. Sure, animals may have feelings. Doesn't stop predators from eating their prey. 


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#80

Posted 13 May 2016 - 02:51 PM Edited by Kratos2000, 13 May 2016 - 02:57 PM.

It's about context. Doing it on a message board is fine, but doing it at a barbecue while people are eating is different.

 

 

I've no problem with vegetarians (my mother is a vegetarian and was a vegan for a few years). I actually respect it as a health choice, and I honestly respect the moral integrity of people do it because they care about animals and want to prove that by deed.

There's a misunderstanding people make when they raise the "get out of my plate" point

Veganism is often not a health choice, but rather very often a moral choice. moral vegans see injustice of immeasurable proportions as a reality. not just injustice - actual moral crimes of very high degrees being committed as part of the norm, which is pretty crazy to see when you're a moral vegan - watching the morals you hold so dear being stumped by the public. They are morally obliged to participate in Vegan activism, and doing so at a barbecue, comparing it with the holocaust, pushing it into people's ordinary lives - is, from that viewpoint, necessary and very trivial.

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#81

Posted 14 May 2016 - 12:41 AM

 

 

 

 

EDIT: also some vegans believe that if the process is not consensual is it morally wrong which is another reason why they do not consume these products. 

 

 

 

 

Directed at Tchuck.

 

That argument doesn't make  sense since why does me  being vegan suddenly mean I can't care about workers rights? Hell when I realized that the system we live in might not be as ethical as I thought, it got me interested in what I actually consumed. It's also made more interested at looking at other systems that try to fix this problem. Although I think I need to understand economics more to get how it works heh but that;s for another topic. It also not practicable to not wear clothes or not use a computer when it is very practicable to eliminate 99% of animal products for many people.  

 

Also would like to apologize to other people for the quote thing. Not sure how to quote just one individual post.

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#82

Posted 14 May 2016 - 02:23 AM

I've thought about going vegetarian when I become independent, since I believe it'll be quite easy since growing up I've come to believe meat is overrated, but the amount of non-vegan food I consume I still love (seafood) might hold me back in the end, since it'll be hypocritical to pick and choose what's vegetarian or not.

 

My mother used to be vegan, now she eats salad, tofu, collard greens, alongside turkey and lean chicken because she needs the nutrients from the meat.  


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#83

Posted 14 May 2016 - 04:43 AM

 

Yes. We don't allow one word posts here at D&D.

 
On the topic at hand, if you're concerned about the "moral" or "ethical" reasons regarding consumption of meat, do you also ensure everything else you consume is also morally and ethically proper? The computer you're using now, the clothes you buy, all that you consume likely had its parts assembled by conditions akin to slave labour in a far away country you probably never heard of, where people are used as a resource to make a profit. Do they matter as well? 
 
This is what is most unappealing to me about the vegan movement; the ethical and moral argument, which is just hypocrisy. You care for animals, you think they have feelings and we shouldn't be killing them to eat them. That's fine. But to go out saying it's a "moral and ethical" choice is bullsh*t when you go around consuming other products of moral and ethical dubiousness. 
 
As for me, I don't eat beef because I think it's a waste of space used for grazing and I don't like the taste. I eat pork in the form of bacon only because it is one of the most delicious inventions mankind has ever discovered, the main one being cheese. And I love chicken. Hate eating salads, and eat vegetables in the stuff I prepare when they are nicely accompanied by other stuff, usually animal products of some sort. Sure, animals may have feelings. Doesn't stop predators from eating their prey. 

Directed at Tchuck.

 

That argument doesn't make  sense since why does me  being vegan suddenly mean I can't care about workers rights? Hell when I realized that the system we live in might not be as ethical as I thought, it got me interested in what I actually consumed. It's also made more interested at looking at other systems that try to fix this problem. Although I think I need to understand economics more to get how it works heh but that;s for another topic. It also not practicable to not wear clothes or not use a computer when it is very practicable to eliminate 99% of animal products for many people.  

 

Also would like to apologize to other people for the quote thing. Not sure how to quote just one individual post.

 

 

Fixed it for you.

 

Because it would make you a hypocrite if you refuse to do something out of a moral principle, but do other things that infringe on the same moral principle. It's great it got you interested in what you actually consume. It actually IS very practical to eliminate certain clothes and computers and brands that use slave labour. It's just not convenience and easy. There's several clothes brands that are made without using slave labour in their manufacturing. They either cost more or look worse. You can choose them. As for a computer, well, there's probably a manufacturer out there that created "slave-free" components. They'll probably suck, but are probably enough to just do the basic uses of a computer. But it's all part of convenience; you don't NEED a computer, because you can live your life without it. Your life doesn't depend on it. But it sure is more convenient.

 

My point is; if you're going to say you are a vegan because it's the moral and ethical thing to do, then you WILL be a hypocrite unless you apply that same standards to everything else in your life. Ethical consumption is ethical consumption, be it food, a car, clothes, games. And that's what annoys me about most vegans. They can't just be vegans and call it a day. They have to make a moral issue out of it, trying to guilt others into joining them because it's the moral and ethical thing to do. And then they pull out their iphone with materials sourced from slave mines, with components assembled in a factory where people sometimes jump out the window of because life is no longer living. Hypocrisy at its finest.

 

Basically, if you want to be a vegan, then be a vegan. Eat what you think is right. Say you don't want to kill any animals or just simply want healthier living. That's all beautiful and fine. But don't bring in ethical and moral consumption into the fray, unless you practice that same theory on everything else you consume. You wanna be a vegan and tell me it's the moral and ethical thing to do? Well, if you want to enjoy that high horse, your clothes better have been made by you, your house better be built by you or volunteers, you better not use any other product that involves ethical and moral consumption whatsoever, or you'll just be a hypocritical asshole.

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#84

Posted 14 May 2016 - 09:26 AM Edited by Kratos2000, 14 May 2016 - 09:32 AM.

 

 

Yes. We don't allow one word posts here at D&D.

 
On the topic at hand, if you're concerned about the "moral" or "ethical" reasons regarding consumption of meat, do you also ensure everything else you consume is also morally and ethically proper? The computer you're using now, the clothes you buy, all that you consume likely had its parts assembled by conditions akin to slave labour in a far away country you probably never heard of, where people are used as a resource to make a profit. Do they matter as well? 
 
This is what is most unappealing to me about the vegan movement; the ethical and moral argument, which is just hypocrisy. You care for animals, you think they have feelings and we shouldn't be killing them to eat them. That's fine. But to go out saying it's a "moral and ethical" choice is bullsh*t when you go around consuming other products of moral and ethical dubiousness. 
 
As for me, I don't eat beef because I think it's a waste of space used for grazing and I don't like the taste. I eat pork in the form of bacon only because it is one of the most delicious inventions mankind has ever discovered, the main one being cheese. And I love chicken. Hate eating salads, and eat vegetables in the stuff I prepare when they are nicely accompanied by other stuff, usually animal products of some sort. Sure, animals may have feelings. Doesn't stop predators from eating their prey. 

Directed at Tchuck.

 

That argument doesn't make  sense since why does me  being vegan suddenly mean I can't care about workers rights? Hell when I realized that the system we live in might not be as ethical as I thought, it got me interested in what I actually consumed. It's also made more interested at looking at other systems that try to fix this problem. Although I think I need to understand economics more to get how it works heh but that;s for another topic. It also not practicable to not wear clothes or not use a computer when it is very practicable to eliminate 99% of animal products for many people.  

 

Also would like to apologize to other people for the quote thing. Not sure how to quote just one individual post.

 

 

Fixed it for you.

 

Because it would make you a hypocrite if you refuse to do something out of a moral principle, but do other things that infringe on the same moral principle. It's great it got you interested in what you actually consume. It actually IS very practical to eliminate certain clothes and computers and brands that use slave labour. It's just not convenience and easy. There's several clothes brands that are made without using slave labour in their manufacturing. They either cost more or look worse. You can choose them. As for a computer, well, there's probably a manufacturer out there that created "slave-free" components. They'll probably suck, but are probably enough to just do the basic uses of a computer. But it's all part of convenience; you don't NEED a computer, because you can live your life without it. Your life doesn't depend on it. But it sure is more convenient.

 

My point is; if you're going to say you are a vegan because it's the moral and ethical thing to do, then you WILL be a hypocrite unless you apply that same standards to everything else in your life. Ethical consumption is ethical consumption, be it food, a car, clothes, games. And that's what annoys me about most vegans. They can't just be vegans and call it a day. They have to make a moral issue out of it, trying to guilt others into joining them because it's the moral and ethical thing to do. And then they pull out their iphone with materials sourced from slave mines, with components assembled in a factory where people sometimes jump out the window of because life is no longer living. Hypocrisy at its finest.

 

Basically, if you want to be a vegan, then be a vegan. Eat what you think is right. Say you don't want to kill any animals or just simply want healthier living. That's all beautiful and fine. But don't bring in ethical and moral consumption into the fray, unless you practice that same theory on everything else you consume. You wanna be a vegan and tell me it's the moral and ethical thing to do? Well, if you want to enjoy that high horse, your clothes better have been made by you, your house better be built by you or volunteers, you better not use any other product that involves ethical and moral consumption whatsoever, or you'll just be a hypocritical asshole.

 

If you think slavery clothing is in any way compared to slaughterhouse deeds, and what the meat industry does in general - you're just not right.

It is incomparable in scope, efficiency and cruelty. And even then there's the huge difference that the vegan fight is one that is not even close to being realized, recognized or accepted yet. An animal slaughter industry that is all about disposal efficiency, slaughter of almost 9.2 billion animals a year in the USA alone for profit. And death is actually the cheeriest part there, the footage of slaughterhouses and chicken farms is not a sight many people can watch. And all that is still considered norm by almost all accounts.

 

It's really a nice analogy you've had there for a moment, sadly it does not hold.

Slavery is terrible, but is at least an acknowledged issue, it is being actively fought and forbidden.

 

Now to the other component of your ridiculous argument, where you point out hypocrisy and believe it is your trump card - you're very off, there countless activism wars to fight; if you think for a moment that you can shut one down by pointing to another then you're delusional. Veganism is a step, not the whole thing - there are still lots to fix. But damn, this is a necessary step.

And I just love how you completely believe this diversion works. So hey, you know about the meat industry and you know about slavery, let's fix none. ~is basically what you're saying.

 

You don't discredit veganism by saying slavery, you just don't. It's a logical fallacy.

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Uncle Sikee Atric
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#85

Posted 14 May 2016 - 10:06 AM Edited by Sikee Atric, 14 May 2016 - 10:07 AM.

I think my issue with your statement is the fact that you are commenting on the footage of abbatoirs like that is the standard all animals are killed in.

Nothing can be further from the truth, as the vast majority of abbatoirs are regulated, controlled and the welfare of the animal is considered, right past the point of slaughter. Most of the footage you commented on is released by welfare groups where poor standards are found and I support their work in discovering the poor operators, but to smear the poor standards on all when the vast majority are working to levels beyond the expected standard.

The vast majority of farmers themselves raise their stock thinking it will be treated with the quality and respect it deserves right upto the point of slaughter, if they think they have been treated poorly after they leave it has reduced producers to suicide in the past, so it has started to become standard for farmers to prefer picking local abbatoirs for their stock. They can visit to check the quality of the processes their animals will undergo, it minimises the stresses of transit on the animals and it is actually becoming cheaper under current pricing to transport the meat frozen, rather than transport the animal live on the hoof.

In Europe, the ID tagging process of all livestock is making it easier to trace poor links in the chain of meat production, since the meat that the butcher is stocking is tracable right back to the very animal that was it's mother. Add to that the animal rights' group (Who I support, so long as they are doing the right thing in exposing poor standards in animal welfare and not classing all meat producers as evil) and the EU regulators that are based on site at all EU abbatoirs (It is down to the national government to supply the regulator, but they are based at every EU abbatoir 24/7 and they must stamp the carcass with an indelible EU registration mark before it can be sold) and the quality of treatment for the animal has to be maintained.

Eutyphro
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#86

Posted 14 May 2016 - 10:06 AM

 

My point is; if you're going to say you are a vegan because it's the moral and ethical thing to do, then you WILL be a hypocrite unless you apply that same standards to everything else in your life. Ethical consumption is ethical consumption, be it food, a car, clothes, games. And that's what annoys me about most vegans. They can't just be vegans and call it a day. They have to make a moral issue out of it, trying to guilt others into joining them because it's the moral and ethical thing to do. And then they pull out their iphone with materials sourced from slave mines, with components assembled in a factory where people sometimes jump out the window of because life is no longer living. Hypocrisy at its finest.

 

Basically, if you want to be a vegan, then be a vegan. Eat what you think is right. Say you don't want to kill any animals or just simply want healthier living. That's all beautiful and fine. But don't bring in ethical and moral consumption into the fray, unless you practice that same theory on everything else you consume. You wanna be a vegan and tell me it's the moral and ethical thing to do? Well, if you want to enjoy that high horse, your clothes better have been made by you, your house better be built by you or volunteers, you better not use any other product that involves ethical and moral consumption whatsoever, or you'll just be a hypocritical asshole.

 

I'm always kind of amazed by these arguments that it is better not to give a sh*t at all and be consistently apathetic and self-centered, than trying to do good and not being absolutely perfect. It's a typical right wing kind of argumentation. You might think it's a good argument, but it isn't. It's pretty crap.

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Tchuck
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#87

Posted 14 May 2016 - 11:04 AM

 

 

 

Yes. We don't allow one word posts here at D&D.

 
On the topic at hand, if you're concerned about the "moral" or "ethical" reasons regarding consumption of meat, do you also ensure everything else you consume is also morally and ethically proper? The computer you're using now, the clothes you buy, all that you consume likely had its parts assembled by conditions akin to slave labour in a far away country you probably never heard of, where people are used as a resource to make a profit. Do they matter as well? 
 
This is what is most unappealing to me about the vegan movement; the ethical and moral argument, which is just hypocrisy. You care for animals, you think they have feelings and we shouldn't be killing them to eat them. That's fine. But to go out saying it's a "moral and ethical" choice is bullsh*t when you go around consuming other products of moral and ethical dubiousness. 
 
As for me, I don't eat beef because I think it's a waste of space used for grazing and I don't like the taste. I eat pork in the form of bacon only because it is one of the most delicious inventions mankind has ever discovered, the main one being cheese. And I love chicken. Hate eating salads, and eat vegetables in the stuff I prepare when they are nicely accompanied by other stuff, usually animal products of some sort. Sure, animals may have feelings. Doesn't stop predators from eating their prey. 

Directed at Tchuck.

 

That argument doesn't make  sense since why does me  being vegan suddenly mean I can't care about workers rights? Hell when I realized that the system we live in might not be as ethical as I thought, it got me interested in what I actually consumed. It's also made more interested at looking at other systems that try to fix this problem. Although I think I need to understand economics more to get how it works heh but that;s for another topic. It also not practicable to not wear clothes or not use a computer when it is very practicable to eliminate 99% of animal products for many people.  

 

Also would like to apologize to other people for the quote thing. Not sure how to quote just one individual post.

 

 

Fixed it for you.

 

Because it would make you a hypocrite if you refuse to do something out of a moral principle, but do other things that infringe on the same moral principle. It's great it got you interested in what you actually consume. It actually IS very practical to eliminate certain clothes and computers and brands that use slave labour. It's just not convenience and easy. There's several clothes brands that are made without using slave labour in their manufacturing. They either cost more or look worse. You can choose them. As for a computer, well, there's probably a manufacturer out there that created "slave-free" components. They'll probably suck, but are probably enough to just do the basic uses of a computer. But it's all part of convenience; you don't NEED a computer, because you can live your life without it. Your life doesn't depend on it. But it sure is more convenient.

 

My point is; if you're going to say you are a vegan because it's the moral and ethical thing to do, then you WILL be a hypocrite unless you apply that same standards to everything else in your life. Ethical consumption is ethical consumption, be it food, a car, clothes, games. And that's what annoys me about most vegans. They can't just be vegans and call it a day. They have to make a moral issue out of it, trying to guilt others into joining them because it's the moral and ethical thing to do. And then they pull out their iphone with materials sourced from slave mines, with components assembled in a factory where people sometimes jump out the window of because life is no longer living. Hypocrisy at its finest.

 

Basically, if you want to be a vegan, then be a vegan. Eat what you think is right. Say you don't want to kill any animals or just simply want healthier living. That's all beautiful and fine. But don't bring in ethical and moral consumption into the fray, unless you practice that same theory on everything else you consume. You wanna be a vegan and tell me it's the moral and ethical thing to do? Well, if you want to enjoy that high horse, your clothes better have been made by you, your house better be built by you or volunteers, you better not use any other product that involves ethical and moral consumption whatsoever, or you'll just be a hypocritical asshole.

 

If you think slavery clothing is in any way compared to slaughterhouse deeds, and what the meat industry does in general - you're just not right.

It is incomparable in scope, efficiency and cruelty. And even then there's the huge difference that the vegan fight is one that is not even close to being realized, recognized or accepted yet. An animal slaughter industry that is all about disposal efficiency, slaughter of almost 9.2 billion animals a year in the USA alone for profit. And death is actually the cheeriest part there, the footage of slaughterhouses and chicken farms is not a sight many people can watch. And all that is still considered norm by almost all accounts.

 

It's really a nice analogy you've had there for a moment, sadly it does not hold.

Slavery is terrible, but is at least an acknowledged issue, it is being actively fought and forbidden.

 

Now to the other component of your ridiculous argument, where you point out hypocrisy and believe it is your trump card - you're very off, there countless activism wars to fight; if you think for a moment that you can shut one down by pointing to another then you're delusional. Veganism is a step, not the whole thing - there are still lots to fix. But damn, this is a necessary step.

And I just love how you completely believe this diversion works. So hey, you know about the meat industry and you know about slavery, let's fix none. ~is basically what you're saying.

 

You don't discredit veganism by saying slavery, you just don't. It's a logical fallacy.

 

 

I've watched those videos. I had classes in ethic of consumerism (or whatever the English translation would be) back in university, to show us how we have to think about all details when designing a product. Every decision we make in designing the product affects the factories that will build it, the people who will be hired to make it/sell it, the companies that will appear around it and every other component of the chain. Not all meat processing plants work the same. Sure yeah, a good amount of them is quite inhumane and cruel. But that is changing, slowly but surely.

 

I'm not trying to shut down anyone, and my analogy still holds. If you're going to be vegan for your own reasons and ideals, then more power to you. If you're going to be a vegan just to preach to non-vegans about how they are committing murder with every forkful of meat they put in their mouth, then I'll tell you to f*ck off and point the hypocrisy in you.

 

And don't put words in my mouth. I'm not saying "Well slavery happens everywhere, let's just ignore it." If that's what you understood, you clearly need to read my post again. What I AM saying is that if you are a vegan based on ethical and moral concerns, and you condemn others for doing so on those basis alone, then you better take a good hard look at your glass ceilings before casting your stone. I don't go around judging people based on whatever choices they do. You wanna go fight for animal rights? Go for it. There's lots of mistreatment that happens and forms of production must be improved, and that is something I'm not blind to. Just like I try to make sure the clothes I buy weren't made in sweatshops in asia, and most of the vegetables I eat come from my wife's grandfather's farm. But I don't go preaching around to people who can't/won't do so.

 

By all means, we should be showing people the things that are wrong with every industry and such, and inspire them to be more conscious about what they do. What we shouldn't do is be judging them constantly for things that are a matter of taste, such as food. You may argue that eating meat in any form/shape is wrong. And I'll disagree. 

 

I'm not discrediting veganism. I'm discrediting the preachy kinds. Veganism, to me, is just like any other choice when it comes to your eating habits. It's your own personal choice, and if it makes your life better, all the more power to you. Once you cross into the preachy territory, then yeah. I will point out your ethical/moral hypocrisies, because they'll still be so.

 

 

 

 

My point is; if you're going to say you are a vegan because it's the moral and ethical thing to do, then you WILL be a hypocrite unless you apply that same standards to everything else in your life. Ethical consumption is ethical consumption, be it food, a car, clothes, games. And that's what annoys me about most vegans. They can't just be vegans and call it a day. They have to make a moral issue out of it, trying to guilt others into joining them because it's the moral and ethical thing to do. And then they pull out their iphone with materials sourced from slave mines, with components assembled in a factory where people sometimes jump out the window of because life is no longer living. Hypocrisy at its finest.

 

Basically, if you want to be a vegan, then be a vegan. Eat what you think is right. Say you don't want to kill any animals or just simply want healthier living. That's all beautiful and fine. But don't bring in ethical and moral consumption into the fray, unless you practice that same theory on everything else you consume. You wanna be a vegan and tell me it's the moral and ethical thing to do? Well, if you want to enjoy that high horse, your clothes better have been made by you, your house better be built by you or volunteers, you better not use any other product that involves ethical and moral consumption whatsoever, or you'll just be a hypocritical asshole.

 

I'm always kind of amazed by these arguments that it is better not to give a sh*t at all and be consistently apathetic and self-centered, than trying to do good and not being absolutely perfect. It's a typical right wing kind of argumentation. You might think it's a good argument, but it isn't. It's pretty crap.

 

 

Where did I say it's better to not give a sh*t at all? Where did I say you should not do good or try to improve? I like how you imagine arguments I'm not at all making. 

Your eating habits come from your personal choices. You think meat eating is wrong? Then don't eat it. I don't think it's wrong, and I'll eat it. That's where we should leave it. As for fighting for better treatments of animals, that is an issue separate from veganism. And one that I think is worth pursuing, such as the improvements in conditions in any industry. 

 

But if you're going to be preaching to me about how I'm immoral and unethical for eating meat, then that'll be as far as our relationship will ever go.


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#88

Posted 14 May 2016 - 11:25 AM

Went to a gathering about sustainable investing (among other things) the other day and the professor whom has spearheaded the research into the first lab grown hamburger was there and held a pretty compelling talk. There are very interesting developments, for one they managed to drive down the price significantly, if my memory serves me right 30 * the price of a normal hamburger, and are now looking to grow other meats in a lab environment as well. All with an eye to having it on the shelves of supermarkets *hopefully* within the next years. It was posed that it was just not realistic to deter let alone stop the vast majority of the developed world away from their meat eating habit, so we should instead should look towards science and technology for sustainable alternatives, that ideally would be as good as identical to the real thing, aside from the massive environmental impact. A stance I agree with. Suffices to say I want to taste such a burger now.

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Eutyphro
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#89

Posted 14 May 2016 - 12:38 PM Edited by Eutyphro, 14 May 2016 - 12:40 PM.

 

 

I'm always kind of amazed by these arguments that it is better not to give a sh*t at all and be consistently apathetic and self-centered, than trying to do good and not being absolutely perfect. It's a typical right wing kind of argumentation. You might think it's a good argument, but it isn't. It's pretty crap.

 

 

Where did I say it's better to not give a sh*t at all? Where did I say you should not do good or try to improve? I like how you imagine arguments I'm not at all making. 

Your eating habits come from your personal choices. You think meat eating is wrong? Then don't eat it. I don't think it's wrong, and I'll eat it. That's where we should leave it. As for fighting for better treatments of animals, that is an issue separate from veganism. And one that I think is worth pursuing, such as the improvements in conditions in any industry. 

 

But if you're going to be preaching to me about how I'm immoral and unethical for eating meat, then that'll be as far as our relationship will ever go.

 

 

What you did was refute his argument by a combination of a slippery slope fallacy and some hypocrisy appeal. You made no attempt to refute anything related to views on the ethical implications of consuming meat. Consuming animals has ethical implications, because of the mere fact that animals are able to suffer. But you didn't even argue against the consumption of meat having ethical implications, you just assumed it doesn't have any, and is 'personal choice'. I actually eat meat myself, but I just think your argumentation was terrible.

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#90

Posted 14 May 2016 - 03:37 PM

Tchuck is somewhat correct in saying that they are analogous, only to the extent of how the intrinsic quality of the act(s) is perceived.  They are different especially when considered from the perspective of consequentionalism.  As an example, I could make the argument that purchasing a shirt made in China has only helped lift the country from poverty faster than any in the history of the industrialized world.  Per capita income increased 5 times the amount from 1990 to 2000, and again from 2000 to 2010.  China now has the greatest PPP in the world.  So it's just a matter of perspective.  What you see as "slave labor" may be an economic miracle to others.

 

The whole ethical and moral dilemma behind eating meat is just categorical, meaning that no matter how beneficial the outcome - by eliminating scarcity and producing meats and dairies at an affordable cost - the act of slaughter or quality of care may seem inherently wrong to the consumer.  The same can be said of purchasing shirts from China.

 

I don't really think there's anything wrong with being inconsistent about either, but I think it's at least helpful in understanding why we feel the way we do about certain things.

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