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Veganism, animal rights & factory farming

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G's Ah's
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#31

Posted 30 April 2016 - 08:45 AM Edited by G's Ah's, 30 April 2016 - 08:46 AM.

Australia has factory farming, and what qualifies as 'free range' still involves elements of factory farming.

 

You're the only one who considers the cat thing relevant. You haven't explained it either. Do we have to produce so much meat for cats that we may as well continue on as we are? Is this taurine stuff impossible to synthesise?

 

I'm not from Australia. I would have hoped the flag and my initial post in this thread would have made it clear. As for the cat, I was concerned that the OP would be one of those vegans who enforces their beliefs onto their pets irrespective of their dietary requirements. 

 

That's probably what they'd want people to believe; that the animals all have good living conditions before they are slaughtered (by cutting open their throats and letting them bleed to death in the pile of their own blood, or sometimes hanging by their legs from a ceiling).

 

You're making it sound like there's some sort of conspiracy going on. With regards to the slaughter, no that is not how animal slaughter is done, at least in New Zealand. What you have described is halal slaughter (and to some extent, kosher slaughter as well) and both are particularly gruesome methods of slaughtering an animal. But that doesn't happen in New Zealand (unfortunately can't say the same about other Western countries) because the law here requires that all commercially slaughtered animals must be rendered unconscious before being slaughtered. 

 

As for the premise that they don't live in "good conditions" beforehand, I've often driven past the local "freezing works" (local term for a slaughterhouse) where the sheep are kept in open fields full of grass before they're taken inside to be slaughtered. The sheep come from local farms where they're also kept in good conditions (or as good as you can get for farm paddocks with grass). I can't speak for other nations but this is what local conditions are. 


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#32

Posted 30 April 2016 - 08:59 AM Edited by el_make, 30 April 2016 - 09:19 AM.

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One thing I lively remember from watching the "Earthlings" documentary was the taunts and insults that they (factory farm workers and butchers) said to those pigs: "Move on, motherf*cker!", plus various other unimaginable stuff, and then proceeding to beat them with various objects, or either with their hands and feet. It's a horrible thing to think and know, especially if these people have children, or an other animal let's say a dog, but not caring about inflicting pain and agony on another animal - that they most likely think has less value than others. That's total bullsh*t. I've petted a pig before and let me tell you - they like to be petted as much as a pet dog would. They also like their belly rub'd, as would a dog. They're also smart and lovable creatures too: http://www.huffingto..._n_7585582.html

 

Pig mothers sing to their piglets when nursing them, and the piglets run towards their mother when they recognize her voice.

 

One can come up with all kinds of excuses, and justify eating them (not just pigs) as much as they want, but it's not going the change the fact that those animals live in hideous conditions, and are treated like trash most of the time - with their value as living creatures stripped from them as soon as they're born. I just can't comprehend or justify any of that myself. Never.

 

Here's a good argument in an article about the "free-range vs. factory farmed meat" topic: http://www.theatlant...y-farmed/67569/

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#33

Posted 30 April 2016 - 09:55 AM Edited by Failure, 30 April 2016 - 10:05 AM.

@Dairy and eggs: Not going to cut back on them. Eggs are a great source of protein and omelettes are a great base to a cheap meal. Dairy is a standard thing as well (milk in tea [though never in coffee], cheese in omelettes/pizza, salmon and cream cheese bagels, and so on). Also as a previous poster says, the health risks from red meat are largely from processed red meat. Eating fresh meat in moderation is a natural part of the human diet; eating copious processed meat is not.

 

 

 


Pig mothers sing to their piglets when nursing them, and the piglets run towards their mother when they recognize her voice.

 

Pigs aren't pests or dirty animals or anything, but I think it's dangerous to anthropomorphise them on principle (same goes for all animals, except perhaps dogs who have a long domestic history, though even then I feel it's unfair to them to humanise them too much). I generally avoid pork anyway, chicken being my main source of meat. I tend to eat less meat nowadays due to the cost--fresh meat is expensive and processed meat isn't something to be eaten regularly. Chicken, rice and veg is a common meal for me.

 

 

and both are particularly gruesome methods of slaughtering an animal.

 

Can't speak for halal but the whole point of schechita was to minimise pain to the animal--this is why the process is specific and demands a trained slaughterer. There's a large rabbinical vegatarian movement which sees meat as a concession during the Israelite's difficult times in the Sinai and that vegatarianism is the ideal. Until the 1980s kosher slaughter was the most humane method (though that's not saying much).

 

The problem with both halal and kosher slaughter nowadays is mechanising the process. When kosher slaughter is mechanised the results tend to be horrid, to the extent that the late Chief Rabbi Shlomo Goren became a strict vegetarian after inspecting a Canadian kosher slaughterhouse.


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#34

Posted 30 April 2016 - 01:39 PM

One thing I lively remember from watching the "Earthlings" documentary was the taunts and insults that they (factory farm workers and butchers) said to those pigs: "Move on, motherf*cker!", plus various other unimaginable stuff, and then proceeding to beat them with various objects, or either with their hands and feet. It's a horrible thing to think and know, especially if these people have children, or an other animal let's say a dog, but not caring about inflicting pain and agony on another animal - that they most likely think has less value than others. That's total bullsh*t. I've petted a pig before and let me tell you - they like to be petted as much as a pet dog would. They also like their belly rub'd, as would a dog. They're also smart and lovable creatures too: http://www.huffingto..._n_7585582.html

 

Pig mothers sing to their piglets when nursing them, and the piglets run towards their mother when they recognize her voice.

 

One can come up with all kinds of excuses, and justify eating them (not just pigs) as much as they want, but it's not going the change the fact that those animals live in hideous conditions, and are treated like trash most of the time - with their value as living creatures stripped from them as soon as they're born. I just can't comprehend or justify any of that myself. Never.

 

Here's a good argument in an article about the "free-range vs. factory farmed meat" topic: http://www.theatlant...y-farmed/67569/

 

These are pretty much all appeals to emotion top to bottom though, and you don't try to hide that fact either. Pigs don't speak English so if I'm going to call him Billy the Pig or motherf*cker isn't going to make an ounce of actual difference, physical abuse of course isn't too be applauded but these are most certainly exceptions to a rule, and not as commonplace as some activist animal "rights" groups would like to have you believe, certainly not in this neck of the woods where we even have a party in parliament called "Party for the Animals", whom's sole agenda is animal welfare for crying out loud. As for singing pork, well, great but that isn't going to deter me from eating them. Undoubtedly the game meat I consume semi-regularly was not only delicious but at one point in time had a certain degree of evolutionary intelligence as well, what you as well as many a animal rights advocate neglects to mention in your often times very passionate though grossly romanticised portraits however, is how low on the food chain some of the animals we love to consume are in a natural environment, and there are no laws governing animal welfare in a forest, ocean or wherever- a bigger predator will enthusiastically maul away with zero regard to the animal's it is consuming's feelings. Sounds a lot worse and less humane than getting a quick electric shock, a technique common place in many slaughter houses.
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#35

Posted 30 April 2016 - 01:43 PM

I'm not from Australia. I would have hoped the flag and my initial post in this thread would have made it clear. 

Oh you're from the neighbouring country with the same policy and the almost identical flag. Point withdrawn. 

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#36

Posted 30 April 2016 - 02:48 PM

 

 

is how low on the food chain some of the animals we love to consume are in a natural environment, and there are no laws governing animal welfare in a forest, ocean or wherever- a bigger predator will enthusiastically maul away with zero regard to the animal's it is consuming's feelings.

 

Natural selection and controlled factory farming by man are two completely different things.

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#37

Posted 30 April 2016 - 06:47 PM

From what I've heard the slaughterhouse process is that the animals are stunned before death and thus they don't feel anything although accidents do happen. However the raising process is still similar  with egg laying chickens having severe deficiencies due to being forced to lay way more than they should be and cows being hooked up to machines etc.

 

@Failure, what is wrong with "anthropomorphising" (sorry for the c/p can't spell that word for the life of me lol) them  when  all we are saying is that animals have the capacity to suffer so therefore we shouldn't exploit them? 

 

@Raavi except humans have a greater moral compass? And usually in a "natural environment" animals eat for survival while we don't.  

 

Honestly the key thing here is that human's don't need animal products to be fine, We can have animal products in moderation but we don't need it so I don't really see the reason why we should consume them besides taste which is pretty screwed up. 


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#38

Posted 30 April 2016 - 07:24 PM

 

 

 

is how low on the food chain some of the animals we love to consume are in a natural environment, and there are no laws governing animal welfare in a forest, ocean or wherever- a bigger predator will enthusiastically maul away with zero regard to the animal's it is consuming's feelings.

 

Natural selection and controlled factory farming by man are two completely different things.

 

 

Do please point out where I said they weren't? Also do read the sentence before that and the sentence directly after, you get the context you cut out. What I was getting at with that, is you base your argument on appeals to emotion of happy singing pigs and link to an article that paints some kind of Disney-level walhalla for farm animals weren't they subject to the horrible evils of men, but all the while appear to casually ignore the realities of life out in nature their non-domesticated counterparts lead. That is unless you envision putting all those cute intelligent pet-able pigs in petting zoos when we do away with having them for breakfast lunch and dinner? Just a bit of sobering reality, that's all.

 

@Raavi except humans have a greater moral compass? And usually in a "natural environment" animals eat for survival while we don't.  

 

Morality is relative. And our, according to you, not needing of animal produce for survival is an argument to not eat animal produce why exactly? Our entire reality is build around and perpetuates things we don't need for survival, doesn't mean we should shun them. We have far surpassed times of the hunter-gatherer. I drive a car, I use the internet, I drink wine, bought an overpriced pair of new oxfords the other day after some c*nt stepped on the pair I was wearing scuffing them, not because I need to to keep me from dying, but because I want to.

 

Again, if we can replicate texture and taste with lab grown meat, I won't have any issue whatsoever altering my diet accordingly, but until such time I will continue to consume meat and other animal produce, because I want to. These damn tasty eggs Benedict, steaks, racks of lamb, carpaccio, steak tartare, quail, partridge, venison, (I could go on and on, but I'm making myself hungry again and I just ate)... man! 

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#39

Posted 30 April 2016 - 09:54 PM

That argument can literally be used to justify anything though, Should businessmen be able to exploit children in Africa who work the fields for minerals and workers in Bangladesh who work for insane hours to the point of exhaustion with pretty much unlivable wages since "morality is subjective"? 

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#40

Posted 30 April 2016 - 10:09 PM

Not subjective, relative and it isn't a justification. It's a statement of fact. I'm not going to claim any moral high ground, as I said I eat meat because I enjoy and want to. But we're not talking about blood diamond miners or Bangladeshi kiln-slaves, and forgive me but no I don't remotely equate the tribulations of a pig regardless or wether it sings the f*cking Habanera or not to the plight of de facto slaves in the Indian subcontinent. 

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#41

Posted 01 May 2016 - 01:21 AM

I do think, to be fair, that if you're going to consume animal products you should have to kill an animal yourself at some point. We like to pretend that we're not perturbed by these acts and our desire for a good steak or bacon outweighs the sacrifice of the animal. Which is, you know, debateable. But unless you've cut off a head or shot or bolted an animal you don't really stand in any position to rebuff the question of ethics.

Regulations are rarely followed, and you have to reconcile that with your diet as well. El make may be appealing to emotion, but make no mistake - the animals you eat rarely die well; unless you source good local eggs, them chickens are not happy campers, and pigs and lambs can be more intelligent than house pets.

As for alternatives, I've had a few really good ones lately; there's a pea/chickpea protein chicken substitute that makes killer f*cking wings. And there's a new type of fake blood - yeah, fake hemoglobin - that apparently really seals the deal for beef flavor. Eggs, I can find sustainably and ethical enough for me. Dairy? I'm always looking for a good fake cheese - they're getting closer. Milk? Nobody needs to drinkt hat sh*t.

One day.... But yeah. Raavi, I'm with you. Hard to turn down that stuff.
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#42

Posted 01 May 2016 - 01:39 AM Edited by Melchior, 01 May 2016 - 01:40 AM.

 But yeah. Raavi, I'm with you. Hard to turn down that stuff.

I've been a vegetarian before lads, it's honestly not that hard. Deciding what to eat is the hardest part, and I usually went for some soy based meat imitation, which is okay, The sausages are fine, psuedo-fish or chicken products come in bread crumbs and don't taste that different. Only the bacon tastes like dogfood.

 

Giving up dairy and eggs is a real commitment, I don't know how you'd give up cheese and chocolate.

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#43

Posted 01 May 2016 - 01:55 AM

I do think, to be fair, that if you're going to consume animal products you should have to kill an animal yourself at some point.

 

I almost hit a man on a bicycle with my car once. That kinda counts.


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#44

Posted 01 May 2016 - 02:02 AM

I do think, to be fair, that if you're going to consume animal products you should have to kill an animal yourself at some point. We like to pretend that we're not perturbed by these acts and our desire for a good steak or bacon outweighs the sacrifice of the animal. Which is, you know, debateable. But unless you've cut off a head or shot or bolted an animal you don't really stand in any position to rebuff the question of ethics.

 

But wouldn't a bunch of untrained amateurs "having a go" just mean animals die less efficiently and suffer more? 


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#45

Posted 01 May 2016 - 02:05 AM

@Otter Boiled a lobster once, that counts, right? Right?! All kidding aside, I looked into doing something along the lines of a hunting trip a while ago- not the US-dentist take a jeep to a rare lion in Africa and shoot it to have a picture taken of me looking like an overcompensating f*ckstick variety- but the spending the day stalking and hunting for dinner in the Scottish highlands kind. Though back then I concluded it'd not be the ideal weekend getaway so I booked a city trip to Prague instead. 

 

We are pretty strict when it comes to food regulations here both from an EU level and national level, with real consequences for the businesses that don't adhere to food safety and agricultural guidelines. But regardless of that, and with some scandals in the sector still fresh in the back of my mind, as said before in this thread, I'm highly highly selective when it comes to buying meat and eggs. Fortunately we're not short on conscious options here, at a premium but worth it for the taste alone. For meat we have a couple of local butchers whom have partnerships with regional agriculture, the partnered farms I can visit freely, and if I would so choose to I could even buy at those farms directly. Same goes for eggs, but also fruit and veg. 

 

Tried vegetarian dishes (this was before I even had heard the word vegan, so quite some years ago) for what I set out would be one week purely as an experiment to see what effect it would have once, but ended up cheating 4 days in with a steak tartare. It doesn't help when your favourite dishes are all meat/fish-based. 

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#46

Posted 01 May 2016 - 02:06 AM

 

I do think, to be fair, that if you're going to consume animal products you should have to kill an animal yourself at some point. We like to pretend that we're not perturbed by these acts and our desire for a good steak or bacon outweighs the sacrifice of the animal. Which is, you know, debateable. But unless you've cut off a head or shot or bolted an animal you don't really stand in any position to rebuff the question of ethics.

 

But wouldn't a bunch of untrained amateurs "having a go" just mean animals die less efficiently and suffer more? 

 

...is this an actual argument, or a cheeky way of saying that such things are beneath a fella like stu?


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#47

Posted 01 May 2016 - 02:15 AM

@Raavi, my favorite dishes were steak, chocolate lava cake, doughnuts in n out cheeseburgers, and chicken tikka masla literally all dairy and meat before I went vegan.

 

 

I ate meat two times a day and dairy three times a day usually and even used to make fun of vegans. Now I am one. There are vegan cakes out there such as the ones at wholefoods and plenty of recpies to make your own. There is also dark chocolate which tries to get more ethically sourced cocoa beans (as in child labor problems when it comes to chocolate) There are also vegan milk chocolate brands out there. Stuff like Gardein comes very close to the real thing in terms of meat. Tons of cookbooks and whatnot. 

 

 

Many people often think we eat salad pretty much all the time for some reason and I think the last time I ate a salad was a month ago. 

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#48

Posted 01 May 2016 - 02:21 AM

Otter It's a cheeky way of saying checkmate, and you just got absolutely bished, boshed, and BTFO ; )

 

Alright just so I'm adding something, the most I've killed is a mouse. That was actually pretty tough. Like I really had to psyche myself up for it and I did feel really guilty afterwards. Killing a cute lamb or something bigger (than a mouse) would be really f*cking hard. But I think it's just because it's not something you're used to and you also know it's not necessary. If it was life or death you'd just grab the lamb and drown it in a f*cking river or bash it's head in or do whatever you had to and I don't think you'd feel remorse because your survival instincts would be there and your whole mindset would be different.


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#49

Posted 01 May 2016 - 02:25 AM

If it were a survival situation I'd kill a man, too - I don't see your point. I'm saying that if you can't bring yourself to kill an animal to eat it then maybe the I'm-a-man-don't-tell-me-what-I-can't-eat position don't hold much water.


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#50

Posted 01 May 2016 - 02:36 AM

@Raavi, my favorite dishes were steak, chocolate lava cake, doughnuts in n out cheeseburgers, and chicken tikka masla literally all dairy and meat before I went vegan.

 

 

I ate meat two times a day and dairy three times a day usually and even used to make fun of vegans. Now I am one. There are vegan cakes out there such as the ones at wholefoods and plenty of recpies to make your own. There is also dark chocolate which tries to get more ethically sourced cocoa beans (as in child labor problems when it comes to chocolate) There are also vegan milk chocolate brands out there. Stuff like Gardein comes very close to the real thing in terms of meat. Tons of cookbooks and whatnot. 

 

 

Many people often think we eat salad pretty much all the time for some reason and I think the last time I ate a salad was a month ago. 

 

 

I applaud your efforts, genuinely do- but you're not going to make a vegan out of me. I'm well aware vegans don't just eat salads all day, but the variety on offer within such a strict diet simply isn't appealing to my personal sensibilities. I'd like to think I have a pretty varied diet with meat, fish and other animal products being pretty vital parts of that. To paint you a picture of an average day like today: had two baguettes with garlic butter, smoked beef and two soft boiled eggs on the side for brunch, sushi for late lunch and a woefully underwhelming pasta with what had to pass for pesto and parmesan for dinner- this is pretty standard for a weekend, well except for the underwhelming pasta, last week it was an underwhelming microwave lasagna. Only thing close to vegan, minus the parmesan would be the pasta, which coincidentally was my worst meal of the day. 

 

Chocolate is pretty interesting actually, apparently it's impossible to steadily produce it completely without child labour / slave labour. There was this Dutch documentary maker / journalist whom tried for many years but ultimately failed. Pretty interesting stuff, really. Tony's Chocolonely, for if you want to give it a read.


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#51

Posted 01 May 2016 - 04:57 AM

8492cca9fb71129e92ac10629089c79b.jpg

 

Can I ask you a question: do you think that cows spend all of their time in milking sheds? Or that the machinery that is used to milk them is inherently bad? 

 

One thing I lively remember from watching the "Earthlings" documentary was the taunts and insults that they (factory farm workers and butchers) said to those pigs: "Move on, motherf*cker!", plus various other unimaginable stuff, and then proceeding to beat them with various objects, or either with their hands and feet.

 

 

So you're generalising an entire industry based on the actions of a group of individuals who should be (and hopefully were) in court on abuse charges? Are you actually here for a discussion or are you just going to push an agenda by trying to get people to "convert" to a vegan diet because of some sort of personal ethics crusade? 

 

One can come up with all kinds of excuses, and justify eating them (not just pigs) as much as they want, but it's not going the change the fact that those animals live in hideous conditions, and are treated like trash most of the time - with their value as living creatures stripped from them as soon as they're born. I just can't comprehend or justify any of that myself. Never.

 

 
Again, you're making generalisations about an entire industry based on a few abuse cases. It would be me suggesting that you should never wear clothes again because some of the clothing sold in stores is made in sweatshops in Bangladesh. 
 
But I get the distinct impression that you get your ideas about commercial farming in general and where we get meat and other animal products from are based on nothing but negatives from heavily biased sources. Now I'm not saying that what animal rights groups are saying about how certain farms work are wrong, but what they're doing is portraying an entire industry based on the abuses of a few individuals. And now we have an argument presented that is based entirely on facts from one side of the argument. 
 
The interesting thing is that photo of the cow in the milking shed. New Zealand's largest exports by monetary valuation are dairy products: milk, cheese etc. In fact New Zealand is one of the largest dairy producing countries in the world. And dairying in New Zealand has a lot of issues with it, principally the low dairy prices, farmers losing money hand over fist and the pollution of waterways that comes with conversion to dairying. 
 
Anyway, addressing that photo you posted: yes that is how cows are milked. Traditionally cows are milked around around twice a day in New Zealand dairy farms but there is a push towards halving that because of better flexibility and it offers better advantages for farmers and for heard health, as cows spend less time in the sheds. Some dairy farms are even going automated where cows come in of their own accord to be milked. I'll leave you to read this here: http://www.dairyatwo...obotic-milking/
 
As for the cows being kept in horrific conditions, this is also false. Cows on all dairy farms in New Zealand are kept in open paddocks which are irrigated and full of fresh, green grass. Unfortunately this method is also highly polluting as many of these farms were previously used for sheep farming but converted. Which means that there's less vegetation alongside waterways to absorb the effluent and the nitrate which pollutes around 80% of New Zealand's streams, rivers and other waterways. In addition, dairy farming is also New Zealand's single largest source of greenhouse gases. 

Oh you're from the neighbouring country with the same policy and the almost identical flag. Point withdrawn. 

 

Slightly off topic but earlier this year we voted in a referendum to change the flag and one of the main arguments for changing it was that it looked too similar to that of Australia's. 

 

As for "the same policy", New Zealand banned crate farming for pigs in December 2015: 

http://www.scoop.co....into-effect.htm

 

According to this Wikipedia article on gestation crates, Australia will also follow suit next year:

https://en.wikipedia...Gestation_crate


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#52

Posted 01 May 2016 - 05:21 AM

...this was the first google result I found for New Zealand.

http://safe.org.nz/s...factory-farming

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#53

Posted 01 May 2016 - 07:36 AM Edited by el_make, 01 May 2016 - 08:38 AM.

Good read there, Otter.

 

 

 

Can I ask you a question: do you think that cows spend all of their time in milking sheds? Or that the machinery that is used to milk them is inherently bad? 

 

They probably have some little time to roam around more "freely". Depends on the farm that they're kept at. The machinery most definitely is farm from natural. Natural would be milking with your hands.

 

Here is a snippet from an website article called "Inside the Milk Machine: How Modern Dairy Works:"

 

"With the rise of factory farming, milk is now a most unnatural operation. The modern dairy farm can have hundreds, even thousands of cows. Today’s average dairy cow produces six to seven times as much milk as she did a century ago. Cows spend their lives being 
constantly impregnated in order to produce milk. Bulls can be difficult, so the majority of dairy cows are now artificially inseminated. Sex is a thing of the past. Antibiotics cure infections. Hormones have been designed to increase milk production. The cows 
are pushed hard for this production, and, after roughly three or four years, their production slackens and they are sold off for hamburger meat."

 

 

 

So you're generalising an entire industry based on the actions of a group of individuals who should be (and hopefully were) in court on abuse charges? Are you actually here for a discussion or are you just going to push an agenda by trying to get people to "convert" to a vegan diet because of some sort of personal ethics crusade? 

 

In court for abuse charges? That's not a public place where people can just come and watch the process of slaughter. The exposing of the industry has been done with hidden cameras for a reason. I myself created this topic here at D&D, right - so what do you think I am here for? Now, I would be lying if I wrote that I wouldn't try to appeal to people emotionally (I do yes), but, the thing I created this discussion for is to create more awareness of the subject at hand. And for discussion. And for debate. Why do people get so worked up when you say you're a vegan anyways? Getting all defensive and justifying. "He doesn't support the inhumane factory farming - something must not be right with that guy right there". Proud not to support it. I still stand behind the statement in my previous post; about the trying to come up with reasons and justifications when it comes to eating the industrial farmed meat.

 

And talking about pushing your own agenda; it's not like I'm talking about Jesus and the Bible here, because at least animal rights and factory farming are based on actual facts. But that's a whole another can of worms that I won't open around here--there's a topic for that of it's own.

 

The feeling I get from reading your posts is that you're trying to romanticize the industry and it's traditions. Sure, things might be somewhat better over there in NZ, but, reading the article posted by Otter most likely holds true--even over there I'm positive. The animals are still only used for profit to feed (and drink) off the consumer. And the officials running the business and neither the media (in it's many forms) don't tell you all about what's really going on out there you know. And this doesn't just go for the meat business, but that's another and different topic subject right there.

 

 

 

Again, you're making generalisations about an entire industry based on a few abuse cases. 

 

"A few" abuse cases. Really.

 

Have you personally watched the "Earthlings" documentary by the way?


sivispacem
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#54

Posted 01 May 2016 - 07:48 AM

Wait, did that quote above suggest that it's the same cows used for milking and beef production for human consumption? That's by and large not true. There are some dual purpose breeds, but the majority of cows in the UK at least are either dairy or meat, not both.

Dairy and meat cattle are usually bred independently, using different techniques. Selectively bred beef cattle produce far higher yields of much better quality meat than dairy cattle, which are usually processed for animal food or other products instead.

I'm a meat-eater, but I do care about animal welfare, so I eat a lot of wild game and typically buy meat from local butchers and suppliers which only work in conjunction with a small number of farms- or directly from the farms (there are a couple locally which run their own abattoir and farm shops on-site). I suppose that's the advantage of living where I do, though. My local butchers even provide information about the breeds- they're a proper old-school type place who actually butcher while carcasses on site rather than just buying it frozen from some faceless corporation.

As a side note, most good abattoirs will let people tour the facility free of charge to see the process if you express an interest in it. I've visited a couple of local ones before.

Getting a properly objective view from articles posted on the internet is nigh-on impossible as almost every one is perpetuating an agenda of some kind and selectively using only the evidence they have which corroborates their predefined viewpoint.

G's Ah's
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#55

Posted 01 May 2016 - 11:15 AM

...this was the first google result I found for New Zealand.

http://safe.org.nz/s...factory-farming

 

And if you dig a little deeper, you'll find that there is a thing about the crate ban. Can I ask what exactly are you trying to suggest here? 

 

They probably have some little time to roam around more "freely". Depends on the farm that they're kept at. The machinery most definitely is farm from natural. Natural would be milking with your hands.

 

Hand milking is not really a thing anymore, unless you're a farmer with one or two cows and you get your milk from them. As for where the cows are kept, cows are kept in paddocks on dairy farms. That is where they spend all of their time when they are not being milked. It's the rule, not the exception. The only time when cows are kept for extended periods of time indoors is during bad weather, which in most cases would be during winter when snow falls and feed is difficult to distribute (also protects the calves during spring when it can and does happen). 

 

The thing with commercial dairying is that demand for milk is huge, even in times of low milk prices. The vast majority of people in the world live in urbanised areas, where acquiring "natural" milk is basically impossible. How else are they supposed to get it if there's no one to provide it "naturally"? 

 

Also, your quote there is pretty damn misleading. Factory farming on dairy farms is non-existent here, as cows spend all their time when not being milked outside. Antibiotics are essential in order for a cow to remain healthy, if this wasn't the case, the cow would likely fall ill and die. And as sivispacem said, dairy cattle are not sold off to become beef. There are specific cows for beef and specific cows for dairying. 

 

In court for abuse charges? That's not a public place where people can just come and watch the process of slaughter. The exposing of the industry has been done with hidden cameras for a reason.

 

 

They use cameras to expose abuses. If someone is breaking the law, they're not going to be showing it off publicly because they know they're not going to get away with it. There was a scandal last year involving one farm and a stock moving company abusing bobby calves on a dairy farm. And cameras were used to bring these abuses into the public eye. The farm and the company were investigated and penalised. 

 

I myself created this topic here at D&D, right - so what do you think I am here for?

 

 

Probably the same reason Mormons appear on your doorstep: to bring people into the light and abandon their evil, sinful ways. 

 

Why do people get so worked up when you say you're a vegan anyways?

 

 

Because vegans (not all mind you) are generally seen as preachy, self-righteous, holier-than-thou people who go on and on about how great of a person they are because they don't eat meat. That's not to say that you are one of those people, but that is the general stereotype. 

 

The feeling I get from reading your posts is that you're trying to romanticize the industry and it's traditions.

 

 

Principally I'm pointing out the misconceptions you seem to be making about animal farming in general. 

 

The animals are still only used for profit to feed (and drink) off the consumer. And the officials running the business and neither the media (in it's many forms) don't tell you all about what's really going on out there you know. And this doesn't just go for the meat business, but that's another and different topic subject right there.

 

 

I get the feeling that this is more an issue with the general commercial aspect of agriculture rather than any ethics based decision to not eat meat. 

 

Have you personally watched the "Earthlings" documentary by the way?

 

 

No and I don't intend to. 

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#56

Posted 01 May 2016 - 11:21 AM Edited by el_make, 01 May 2016 - 09:15 PM.

 

 

No and I don't intend to. 

 

And the reason why?

 

Here's the trailer for it.

 

I wonder if people that don't want to watch the doc have a tiny (at least) bit of a thought in the back of their minds, that would make them - if watching it from start to finish - to re-consider their meat (and other animal product) consumption in general. Now matter how "animal welfare" checked they think that their own country is when it comes to meat, dairy & eggs etc. production.

 

Someone in General Chat mentioned not wanting to see it - the reason being because: "It's just too heartbreaking." she said. 

 

I don't think that there is a valid reason not to watch it - if you consume those products like an average person would - then why not give it a watch then; to see where and how it mostly comes from. Not all of it, but it being the worldwide mass industry it is.


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#57

Posted 01 May 2016 - 01:46 PM

It's worth noting that Earthlings is every much an example of the problem I cited earlier in finding an objective analysis of the subject. Which isn't to say that what it shows doesn't (or hasn't) happened...but you can't expect a film project produced by vegans for the sole purpose of supporting their moral cause to objective in its analysis.
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Otter
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#58

Posted 01 May 2016 - 03:06 PM

Gees - I'm pointing out that your supposed paragon of humane animal treatment has its many faults as well. As we discussed at the beginning of this conversation, ignorance - willful or otherwise - is a large reason people fail to confront these issues.

 

I mean, what, exactly, is your relationship with the industry? You post with such authority on the subject but say crap like "Hand milking is not really a thing anymore, unless you're a farmer with one or two cows and you get your milk from them." - a single cow can produce up to 8 gallons of milk a day. That's a lot of milk for a farming family to process.

 

The demand for dairy is not high enough to justify the methods. In fact, in the US, it's routinely overproduced and dumped.

http://www.bloomberg...elm-u-s-dairies

 

And yes, to further tramp a bit on your unflinching national pride, conditions in NZ are less-then-perfect as well. From the site I shared earlier:

http://safe.org.nz/o...ats-wrong-dairy

 

 

 

Again, this is not to say we should reject all animal products in abject horror - but undercutting the argument that NZ is above these practices. If a country who touts themselves as a golden standard for animal treatment is guilty of heinous sh*t, then maybe sourcing truly ethical meat and dairy isn't quite as simple as buying local.

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#59

Posted 04 May 2016 - 01:44 PM

No answer yet.

 

---

 

The other day when I was hiking in one of our countries national parks, I had a conversation about by vegan lifestyle with two other people.

When asked what I eat - I told them that my diet consists mainly of rice, pasta, potatoes, fruits, peanuts and other stuff such as oat drinks, tofu etc. Not that much veggies actually, as the stereotype is.

I got asked about why I decided to go vegan and my answer was that after watching the documentary mentioned above.

The guy jokingly said - after I told the main thing what it was about - that if he'd watch it--he'd probably stop eating meat and go vegan too. I took it as a bit of more seriousness in him when he said it, rather than just joking about it.

 

 

 


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#60

Posted 04 May 2016 - 02:33 PM

Do you feel you have a responsibility to convert others? I can understand some pride in the accomplishment but it seems personal diet comes up in conversation with some vegans/veggies far more often than normally.

Not making a judgement either way. Just wondering if your choice is solely personal or of it's also a form of activism for you?




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