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Transgender Restroom issues?

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El Diablo
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#61

Posted 26 April 2016 - 10:49 PM

Losing the restrictions gives creeps the chance to enter women's bathrooms without raising suspicion and hang around. As long as there are restrictions, women will know that something's wrong and be able to raise the alarm immediately.

Failure you're wrong.

I don't know how else to say it. reality doesn't bare out your imaginative concerns.

 


Creeps will never be eliminated. There will always be freaks and assholes who spoil everyone's well intended ideals.

right and I could always be killed tomorrow in a car accident but I still get on the highway.

by your own logic, Trip, there's no reason we shouldn't let transgender people use the restroom of their choice. literally nothing will change. creeps will be creeps, normal people will be normal people.

 

apples, meet oranges.

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#62

Posted 26 April 2016 - 10:52 PM Edited by GTA_stu, 26 April 2016 - 10:54 PM.

If some idiot zealot fan of traditional binary restrooms is willing to sexually abuse some people to prove a point - you've got to consider why he's on the same team as you.

 

What? Are you saying someone has actually sexually assaulted someone in a bathroom as a false flag attack, in order to undermine the concept of gender neutral bathrooms or transgenders using the bathroom of their choice? Even if that has happened, trying to use that as a mark against everyone who is in favour of segregated bathrooms is ridiculous and it's also an enormous fallacy. Pretty much like the rest of your post, which is mostly just a reduction to absurdity: "If you make any attempt to protect women then you don't want to let them out in public". 

 

 

We don't need to coddle women, creeps need to be eliminated

 

This is just a completely useless platitude. Creeps cannot and will not be "eliminated". Stopping men going into women's restrooms is hardly coddling, it's a very rudimentary course of action. Do most women want to have a man to be sitting in the cubicle next them whilst they use the loo? I very much doubt it.

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El Diablo
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#63

Posted 26 April 2016 - 10:56 PM Edited by El Diablo, 26 April 2016 - 11:09 PM.

Stopping men going into women's restrooms is hardly coddling, it's a very rudimentary course of action.

but "men" won't be going into women's restrooms.
 
a trans person lives their life as that sexual identity. it would be women going into the women's room. their function in society is a female. nothing is going to change.
 
just like when a trans man uses a male restroom. you wouldn't even know.
because it's not like suddenly a woman is using the man's restroom. no, it's just another man using the man's room.
 
it's a lot simpler than you're making it.
nothing will change. there won't be a spike in bathroom assaults. there's no evidence for that. there's no way you can support that assumption. it's just your baseless bigotry.

 

Do most women want to have a man to be sitting in the cubicle next them whilst they use the loo? I very much doubt it.

you seem to know a lot about what women "want," Mel Gibson...

 

if a woman was using a bathroom stall to do her business, and a transgender woman came into the stall next to her, neither of them would know or care what kind of genitals the other one has. they just want to do their business and leave.

 

is this what you think about Stu?

do you think about whether the men on either side of you actually have swinging dicks and balls while you sh/t? get a life Stu. grow up. kids today in 3rd and 4th grade have a healthier world view than you do right now. learn how to get along on the f/cking playground, dude. we're all just humans here. no one is violating your life, liberty or pursuit of happiness.

 

why do you want to violate theirs?

what an ass.

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#64

Posted 26 April 2016 - 11:27 PM

Walk down a stupid path, Stu, you're gonna reach a stupid conclusion. A 'reduction to absurdity' only underlines the absurdity of your position. That's the point.

 

The only notable case opponents of the 'bathroom law' promote to support their case is the recent stupidity in the state of Washington where a man claimed 'gender immunity' or something to gain access to the women's change room. It's a singular, absurd case where the 'hero' is the the same pervert we're all meant to fear. 

 

 

 

 


Losing the restrictions gives creeps the chance to enter women's bathrooms without raising suspicion and hang around. As long as there are restrictions, women will know that something's wrong and be able to raise the alarm immediately.

 
Except the opposite, because the majority of trangender folks express themselves as their identity. Larry the Cable guy walking into a woman's washroom would be troubling - but lemme tell you, there's more than a few f-m transgendered folks who look like Larry the Cable Guy.


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#65

Posted 26 April 2016 - 11:39 PM

Losing the restrictions gives creeps the chance to enter women's bathrooms without raising suspicion and hang around. As long as there are restrictions, women will know that something's wrong and be able to raise the alarm immediately.

Again: in the real world, women will not scream if you walk into a woman's bathroom. Have you ever been walking down the street and had a woman run out and frantically scream that there's a man in the ladies' room? Have you ever accidentally used the woman's room and been met with anything but giggles?

 

Let's be honest, you're opposed to the policy by default. This is just a backwards rationalisation. 

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#66

Posted 26 April 2016 - 11:39 PM Edited by trip, 26 April 2016 - 11:43 PM.

Here is the only thing on the matter that might bother me.  And I hate to say that this thread kind of exemplifies it.

 

Otter, El D, Stu, and others that I know and see throwing around passionate arguments all identify as straight males.  Correct?  Since we identify as straight males I feel we shouldn't even be discuessing it.  Our feelings and input shouldn't really count since we aren't going to be using the 'ladies' room and I'm betting that any of us would give two sh*ts(pun kinda) if a chick were to walk in and use the 'guys' room.

 

I'd feel better about this argument if we had a straight woman and a transgender male adding in their honest thoughts.

 

 

e:

And something that I lost in my long post last night was a reference to the fact that we all think all of our backyards are the same.  They aren't


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#67

Posted 26 April 2016 - 11:48 PM

You're gonna 'mansplain' us out of even discussing the issue, trip? :p

 

Look, we should all be allowed to have an opinion about whether or not Buck Angel can poop in a boy's stall, no?

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#68

Posted 27 April 2016 - 12:00 AM

Discussing is one thing but when not respecting and refusing any weight to opposite opinions in a case where your say doesn't mean anything is weird to me.  Always has been always will be -   Easiest example is by removing any gender grey area and getting outraged over men making abortion laws.  

 

How 'bout we call it a 'topic' and not label it an 'issue'.  Then open minded people can discuses it more openly and with less social mob mentality clouding anything.  It's only an issue for the weird ass state that wants to write a "you can't pee here unless you were born with a penis" law.  

 

I live and work in one of the most LGBT friendly cities.  We were cool with it before it became a topic even. 


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#69

Posted 27 April 2016 - 12:29 AM

WOW, getting pretty heated in here.

 

You do realise that the issues you're talking about have been around for decades? When Homosexuality was legalised in the UK , people trundled out the same narrow minded prejudiced tripe that they're coming out with now. "how will it affect the children?". Always with the fu*king children. Fu*k the children (not literally).

 

It's the same bullsh*t over and over again. Right -Wing nutjobs who fear 'the different' on a campaign of fearmongering' because certain people don't fit their ideal. There was a time when gay and bisexual men were treated like peadophiles simply because of their sexuality. Gay women were seen as an affront to the species because they would never have kids. (lol, seriously).

 

At the moment the Transgender community are bearing the brunt of people's hatred, mainly because a  lot of those same people have given up hating on the LGB community because they know they can't win. The 'T' community is seen as weaker and therefore easier to marginalise.

 

Unfortunately the 'LGBT' community isn't as cohesive as many members would have you believe, so it's worth bearing that in mind. Biphobia and Transphobia are as much a part of the LGBT community as they are in other areas of society; believe me, I know. Many student organisations had to fight against their own members to have the 'T' added to LGB because people didn't want Trangender people associated with their organisation. Bisexual people still get a hard time from Gay and Lesbian people for 'not making their mind up', or 'just being greedy'.

 

No-one should feel that they can't or shouldn't talk about issues that affect a particular community. It's only when everyone gets together that these 'issues' are resolved. The 'Gay' community didn't get where it is on its own, straight people helped. Same with equal rights for women, men helped. And it's the same for the Transgender community. The only way they will ever get anything close to full equality is if all people get on board and rain down on all those hate-filled Mother Fu*kers who seem to make a hobby out of making peoples lives a misery.

 

Nice to see that there's enlightened discussion on this forum.


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#70

Posted 27 April 2016 - 12:46 AM

There's a super easy and super obvious solution: universal restrooms with private stalls.

 

From what I've read, most stalls in the States aren't exactly....private. 


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#71

Posted 27 April 2016 - 02:04 AM

Does anyone find it ironic the same people who think rapists and perverts will respect a sign are of the same right-thinking group thst suggests Gun Free Zones won't stop a criminal from carrying a gun?

There are laws on the books for everything people are concerned about. A man can't dress like a female, go into a women's restroom and proceed to snap pictures underneath the stalls any easier than a man could do the same in a men's bathroom. This whole notion of it not arousing suspicion is asinine, when has anyone seen a man enter a women's facility and yelled "I'm calling the cops, you're a boy you can't go in there, rape!" No, they're not f*cking daft, they will think their girlfriend/wife/daughter is in there perhaps ill, and if something does happen it's not like there's multiple exits for anyone to get away. In any same reality anyone doing something they shouldn't be doing in a bathroom usually has a high probability of getting in trouble for it whether their gender matched the sign on the door or not. I mean harassment, assault, etc. are all one thing but most places have loitering laws to discourage indecent behavior and drug use in the first place. Or have non of you ever used a men's room at the YMCA? Let me tell you something, creepy pervert guys don't typically "swing one way" if you know what I mean. I had a friend almost get in a fight when he laughed at a guy's advance and the guy got mad, we told the management of the place and it turns out there was a no tresspassing order on the guy because he would regularly cruise the bathroom for dudes and get aggressive when rejected.

Oh and who was it talking about being uncomfortable around men after an assault? That's a sign of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder which is common in sexual assault victims, just regular assault victims too.
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#72

Posted 27 April 2016 - 05:30 AM

Here is the only thing on the matter that might bother me.  And I hate to say that this thread kind of exemplifies it.
 
Otter, El D, Stu, and others that I know and see throwing around passionate arguments all identify as straight males.  Correct?  Since we identify as straight males I feel we shouldn't even be discuessing it.  Our feelings and input shouldn't really count since we aren't going to be using the 'ladies' room and I'm betting that any of us would give two sh*ts(pun kinda) if a chick were to walk in and use the 'guys' room.
 
I'd feel better about this argument if we had a straight woman and a transgender male adding in their honest thoughts.
 
 
e:
And something that I lost in my long post last night was a reference to the fact that we all think all of our backyards are the same.  They aren't


Is this issue limited only to the ladies room? Something that gets forgotten is that a trans woman in a men's room is also highly vulnerable to assault from bigots (as should be clear from some comments you'll see on the subject), and in all likelihood much more highly than it is for the reverse.
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#73

Posted 27 April 2016 - 08:42 AM

 

Losing the restrictions gives creeps the chance to enter women's bathrooms without raising suspicion and hang around. As long as there are restrictions, women will know that something's wrong and be able to raise the alarm immediately.

Again: in the real world, women will not scream if you walk into a woman's bathroom. Have you ever been walking down the street and had a woman run out and frantically scream that there's a man in the ladies' room? Have you ever accidentally used the woman's room and been met with anything but giggles?

 

Let's be honest, you're opposed to the policy by default. This is just a backwards rationalisation. 

 

No one has even suggested that. The point is that creepy people can spend as much time in there as they want as long as no one is alerted to what they are doing.

 

I mean by your own definition I could pretend that I am a woman and spend a significant amount of time in the women's bathroom as long as the law\the owner thinks that trans-women are allowed in there. No one can say that I am not a woman. I don't need to make any changes to myself to prove that I am a woman. After all, who are you to say what I should or shouldn't do with my body?


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#74

Posted 27 April 2016 - 02:55 PM

I don't know what sort of creeps you've dealt with over your life, but simply occupying a space for gratification isn't a common - or even really a victimizing - activity. But whatever, let's explore your example: that's why there's laws against loitering. You'd possibly be detained, depending on how 'creepy' you manage to be. You succeed in publicly clocking yourself as transgender... Or just a creep, depending on how you want to play that out. Anyone - anyone - can be a creep. There's no crime in being gawky and awkward. What the ping-pong police are implying though is the threat of sexual abuse or assault. Groping, fapping, WEIRDOS IN THE PUBLIC BATHROOM, MAN!

What's new about any of that? Have you ever lived in an urban centre? This protects no one from nothing. It's an expression of fear and hatred.

The way it's worked for the past, you know, forever, is that people just use the washrooms they're comfortable with. The current desperate crackdown against it is fuelled by the building resentment against transpeople for refusing to stay in the shadows, burying their secret like it's a shame. Just let people pee where they feel comfortable. Tell your girls the same thing you should tell your boys - if there's a creep staring at you and masturbating, run out and tell an adult. Same same.
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#75

Posted 27 April 2016 - 03:15 PM

I mean by your own definition I could pretend that I am a woman and spend a significant amount of time in the women's bathroom as long as the law\the owner thinks that trans-women are allowed in there. No one can say that I am not a woman.

 

I'm interested in knowing what you have to say for the 49 other US states that have no such restrictions.  Has there been a rise in lewd conduct?

 

I don't need to make any changes to myself to prove that I am a woman. After all, who are you to say what I should or shouldn't do with my body?

 

Again, these laws don't protect transgenders from criminal behavior.  Lewd or disorderly conduct is is violation of public policy no matter what sex you are.  Are you suggesting that supposed "transgenders" will claim relief under the notion that they're somehow being discriminated against for peeking over a stall?  They'll go to jail, regardless of their supposed gender.

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#76

Posted 27 April 2016 - 07:54 PM Edited by Canadian Badass, 27 April 2016 - 07:55 PM.

Can't believe people think universal bathrooms are a good idea. Yes, let's desegregate bathrooms because 0.000000005% of the population believe they were born the wrong gender. It's meme tier identity politics. The reactions have been hilarious too. Seeing bands refuse to play in NC, but those same people hated the Christian baker who refused to give their services to a gay couple. It must feel good denying people a service because you disagree with their beliefs. I say just leave things the way they are. You will never make everybody feel okay with a six foot, two hundred plus pound male with broad shoulders and big hands wearing a wig or a dress using the women's bathroom.

Also, if you took hrt and had some surgery you won't be noticed in the women's bathroom or men's bathroom anyway. Just imagine how much it would cost to put say gender neutral bathrooms into every business in the U.S.

I don't see any result that leads to all parties being satisfied so suck it up butter cup.

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#77

Posted 27 April 2016 - 09:25 PM

I say just leave things the way they are.

 

Obviously you're not fully aware of what's happening in NC.

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#78

Posted 27 April 2016 - 09:39 PM

You will never make everybody feel okay with a six foot, two hundred plus pound male with broad shoulders and big hands wearing a wig or a dress using the women's bathroom.

look, I know where you're coming from, but even this statement is pretty disingenuous. this really isn't how it works.

 

trans women try to live their lives as normal looking women. that's pretty much the main goal of sexual identity. they don't just walk around like Arnold Schwarzenegger stuffed into a poorly fitting dress with cartoon makeup and a bad wig. believe it or not, they put some effort into it :pp

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#79

Posted 27 April 2016 - 09:55 PM

You will never make everybody feel okay with a six foot, two hundred plus pound male with broad shoulders and big hands wearing a wig or a dress using the women's bathroom.

look, I know where you're coming from, but even this statement is pretty disingenuous. this really isn't how it works.
 
trans women try to live their lives as normal looking women. that's pretty much the main goal of sexual identity. they don't just walk around like Arnold Schwarzenegger stuffed into a poorly fitting dress with cartoon makeup and a bad wig. believe it or not, they put some effort into it :pp
Yeah I agree with you. If they pass and look like a woman it shouldn't even be a problem for them to go in the woman's bathroom. But I don't know if I can see the logic in making a chunk of the population uncomfortable for such a tiny demographic of people.

@Otter

Are they banning trans people from using the bathroom they want? If that's the case, I can see why. I don't know if I'd be sh*tting myself if I saw a woman dressed like a dude come in the bathroom but I could see women being uncomfortable with a man being in there.

Also correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't this bill only affect government buildings? Can't businesses decide on their own bathroom policies?

I'm kinda undecided. I don't even know if trans people are being given the right kind of medical treatment tbh. But that's a different topic I'd imagine.

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#80

Posted 27 April 2016 - 10:03 PM

I have a feeling that a good portion of this argument hinges on prejudices of transgenders.  There's this impression that man in a wig is going to be allowed to walk into a woman's bathroom.  I mean, I heard Ted Cruz say 'would you want a grown man in a bathroom with two little girls?'  I guess the real question I have for him is, does he even know what it means to be a transgender?  What it takes to go through the hormone therapy, the surgeries, the social stigmas?  You don't just wake up one day, throw on a wig and a dress, and call yourself a transgender.  That's not how it works.

 

Hell, some transgenders are actually more attractive than actual females.  If this transgender walked into a woman's bathroom, no one would blink an eye.  This is Carmen Carrera, a transgender seeking to be the first trans Victoria's Secret model:

 

Spoiler

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#81

Posted 27 April 2016 - 10:04 PM

CB: The law in NC puts this guy in women's washrooms.

 

BUCK_FEATUREx400.jpg

 

 

Reconcile that. Your position is that they should just...break the law, then?

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#82

Posted 27 April 2016 - 10:25 PM

Two things.

Not every female to male trans person looks like that. It's a struggle for both genders when they try to look like the other.

Secondly, does that guy have a masculine voice? If he does, who will notice? What's stopping that person from going to the bathroom of their choice unoticed?

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#83

Posted 27 April 2016 - 10:29 PM



What's stopping that person from going to the bathroom of their choice unoticed?

 

...the law in North Carolina?

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#84

Posted 27 April 2016 - 11:28 PM Edited by Canadian Badass, 27 April 2016 - 11:30 PM.

What's stopping that person from going to the bathroom of their choice unoticed?

 
...the law in North Carolina?
Who's enforcing the law? Are cops on scene at every government bathroom? Are secretaries obligated to call 911 when they see a trans person enter a bathroom?

Again, if that guy was at a White Castle and hit up the male sh*tter nobody would bat an eye because he looks like a man. Oh wait, that wouldn't matter, because the law only affects government businesses or facilities.

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#85

Posted 27 April 2016 - 11:30 PM

Haha, so your point is "who cares about a law that prohibits the freedom of some folk; they can safely ignore it"? That's what you're rolling with?

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#86

Posted 27 April 2016 - 11:55 PM

The only people who shouldn't be allowed to share restrooms are men, most of you are disgusting.

 

The Transgender community can share our bathrooms, but men should be given a hole in the ground and a tent. Once you've filled it, concrete over it and dig a new one. :lol:

Not sure if serious but? 

I've worked in many places which required me to clean bathrooms..... and the thing is most women's bathrooms are f*ckING FERAL!!!!!

Seen tampon wrappers on the floor, tampons thrown near the bin not in it, and other countless things..... 


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#87

Posted 28 April 2016 - 02:00 AM Edited by Canadian Badass, 28 April 2016 - 02:01 AM.

Haha, so your point is "who cares about a law that prohibits the freedom of some folk; they can safely ignore it"? That's what you're rolling with?

The rule doesn't matter because most of the population aren't going to start a confrontation over a bathroom. And it only affects government buildings. A rule means f*ck all if it isn't enforced.

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#88

Posted 28 April 2016 - 02:12 AM

A law is a law, wether it is actively enforced or not, it sets a dangerous and highly objectionable precedent that can be (ab)used. That such a regressive law curtailing people's personal freedoms is passed in the first place in 2016 is what's relevant, and what's utterly problematic here.


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#89

Posted 28 April 2016 - 03:03 AM

It sets a dangerous cloudy mist of hatred and bigotry in the year of enlightenment 2016. Truth is, when a trans person in N.C goes online they will see people in droves berating the law and calling it horsesh*t. They turn on the TV and see how celebrities are refusing to be perform and how politicans are saying the law is crap. I don't know where I stand. I feel like I can handle a woman dressed as a man in the bathroom but can a woman handle a man dressed as a woman in the bathroom? What about children? If they see a man in a dress use the urinal what are they going to think? It's cliche to say "oh what about the children!", but I see it being an issue. I mean this when I say I don't know what the best course of action is in this situation. I'd say get rid of the law...but I wouldn't leave my kid unattended in there, so I'm not satisfied with that either. Having a third bathroom would be ideal but you can't install another bathroom into every building.

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#90

Posted 28 April 2016 - 03:12 AM

That such a regressive law curtailing people's personal freedoms

 

Is it also a curtailing of personal freedoms when people can't go to the swimming baths/gym and get changed with the opposite sex? If not then why not? 

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