Quantcast

Jump to content

» «
Photo

Transgender Restroom issues?

400 replies to this topic
Melchior
  • Melchior

  • The Connection
  • Joined: 16 May 2009
  • Vietnam

#391

Posted 31 October 2016 - 02:26 PM

I think unisex bathrooms are probably fine but there needs to be a lengthy conversation about it, rather than the rushing through of policy that is happening now. The executive orders and state legislation in the US has opened up women's bathrooms and changing rooms as they currently exist to transwomen. This is hugely indefensible as it robs women of legal recourse: involved here is the redefining of 'sex' to 'gender identity': the legal protections afforded on the basis of sex was the big obstacle to integrating bathrooms without affected women invoking their right to a safe space (and I suppose unaffected people using that as a cover). This basically makes it much harder to remove voyeurs from change rooms, as if they 'identify' a women they are not actually breaking the law and can claim discrimination if they are scrutinised. 

 

These legal machinations have far-reaching consequences. For tentative abortion rights in the US, for quotas and the like. Women's shelters have no legal right to exist. In fact, they now technically violate the law. 'Women' are no longer a legal category of person. 

  • ΣΓ likes this

Eutyphro
  • Eutyphro

    poetic justice

  • Members
  • Joined: 07 Aug 2005
  • Democratic-Republic-of-the-Congo

#392

Posted 31 October 2016 - 03:35 PM Edited by Eutyphro, 01 November 2016 - 01:02 AM.

It seems that either of the extreme positions in this debate are untenable. Saying transgenders should go to the bathroom of their biological sex is untenable, if you consider this means that a range of people who look like dudes have to go to female bathrooms, and a range of people who look like women have to go to male bathrooms, and that's an embarrassing and humiliating situation. I don't think that's a desirable solution for anyone. Meanwhile, the idea that any guy claiming he feels like a lady, regardless of his actual appearance or how he genuinely identifies, should be given access to female changing rooms, bathrooms, or prisons, is a stupid idea as well.

 

As long as people remain pragmatic and well intentioned, then easily good middle ground positions can be found depending on the situation. In the case of what bathroom or changing room someone should be allowed to, that doesn't really need government regulation. Using normal human convention, social pressure, and pragmatic thinking, the situation generally solves itself. The issue solely arises when government wants to step in and regulate the situation. In the case of situations that should be regulated, like what kind of prison someone will go to, legal procedures should exist that make it possible to change your gender, and it shouldn't be enough for someone to just kinda feeling like a lady cause he says so.

The very fact that there are a minority of people who don't identify as their biological sex, and an ever smaller minority who are born as intersex, causes certain pragmatic problems, and solutions specific to certain situations should be able to be openly discussed by well intentioned pragmatic people. There are no universal solutions to these problems.


ΣΓ
  • ΣΓ

    Never Settle

  • $outh $ide Hoodz
  • Joined: 26 Nov 2011
  • European-Union

#393

Posted 31 October 2016 - 10:25 PM Edited by Kristian., 31 October 2016 - 10:26 PM.

I think unisex bathrooms are probably fine but there needs to be a lengthy conversation about it, rather than the rushing through of policy that is happening now. The executive orders and state legislation in the US has opened up women's bathrooms and changing rooms as they currently exist to transwomen. This is hugely indefensible as it robs women of legal recourse: involved here is the redefining of 'sex' to 'gender identity': the legal protections afforded on the basis of sex was the big obstacle to integrating bathrooms without affected women invoking their right to a safe space (and I suppose unaffected people using that as a cover). This basically makes it much harder to remove voyeurs from change rooms, as if they 'identify' a women they are not actually breaking the law and can claim discrimination if they are scrutinised. 

 

These legal machinations have far-reaching consequences. For tentative abortion rights in the US, for quotas and the like. Women's shelters have no legal right to exist. In fact, they now technically violate the law. 'Women' are no longer a legal category of person. 

Did you get struck by lighting or something because you are suddenly beginning to make a lot of sense? I guess the easiest way to avoid such problems is to make changing rooms and bathrooms as private as possible. The idea that women have no problem seeing each other naked is kinda stupid at this point in time (the same is true for men). Being uncomfortable around other people (even ones of the same sex) when (partially) naked  is normal. Ideally I would never want anyone (who I'm not f*cking) to see me naked to any extent and most people probably feel the same too.

 

I am curious about one thing regarding gender and sex. Does the ID in your country specify your gender or does it specify your sex? It seems to me that plenty of people who hold critical views (alt-right people, but not necessarily bigots) of trans people have this idea that having so many genders creates confusion in society, which may be true to some extent but ultimately probably irrelevant. My country's ID specifies the sex only, of which there are only two options naturally. I don't see any problem with someone switching to a different sex and even if they didn't, identifying with a different gender doesn't really change much legally as far as I can tell. Obviously you cannot police the way people dress.


Melchior
  • Melchior

  • The Connection
  • Joined: 16 May 2009
  • Vietnam

#394

Posted 01 November 2016 - 12:59 AM Edited by Melchior, 01 November 2016 - 01:02 AM.

 

I think unisex bathrooms are probably fine but there needs to be a lengthy conversation about it, rather than the rushing through of policy that is happening now. The executive orders and state legislation in the US has opened up women's bathrooms and changing rooms as they currently exist to transwomen. This is hugely indefensible as it robs women of legal recourse: involved here is the redefining of 'sex' to 'gender identity': the legal protections afforded on the basis of sex was the big obstacle to integrating bathrooms without affected women invoking their right to a safe space (and I suppose unaffected people using that as a cover). This basically makes it much harder to remove voyeurs from change rooms, as if they 'identify' a women they are not actually breaking the law and can claim discrimination if they are scrutinised. 

 

These legal machinations have far-reaching consequences. For tentative abortion rights in the US, for quotas and the like. Women's shelters have no legal right to exist. In fact, they now technically violate the law. 'Women' are no longer a legal category of person. 

Did you get struck by lighting or something because you are suddenly beginning to make a lot of sense?

I decided to actually listen to women on these issues tbh. 

 

 

 

I am curious about one thing regarding gender and sex. Does the ID in your country specify your gender or does it specify your sex? It seems to me that plenty of people who hold critical views (alt-right people, but not necessarily bigots) of trans people have this idea that having so many genders creates confusion in society, which may be true to some extent but ultimately probably irrelevant.

Looking at my pub card it says nothing of sex. You can change the sex on your passport I'm fairly sure, although I think the government should still quietly  acknowledge you as your biological sex. You should be able to change the sex on your passport to avoid being outed as trans but I think for statistical purposes we should record only peoples' biological sex. 

 

The alt-right are indeed bigoted, and they consider gender to be an expression of biology rather than a set of coercive expectations that divide labour. 

  • ΣΓ likes this

El Diablo
  • El Diablo

    "The Devil" ™

  • Leone Family Mafia
  • Joined: 03 Aug 2002
  • Mars
  • April Fools Loser 2015

#395

Posted 01 November 2016 - 02:27 AM

I don't understand why we would need unisex bathrooms, either.

striving for absolute equality is one thing but there's still such a thing as simple pragmatism.

 

what percentage of the population need a separate unisex restroom?

I thought the whole point of this debate is that it's a lot less complex than we're making it.... obviously an individual can have a complex sexuality but when it comes to where you're just pissing in public, there's no reason to add any other choices than the Men's or Women's restroom. transmen use the guys room, transwomen use the ladies room. if you're truly gender fluid? you go where you most fit in and would make yourself and everyone around you most comfortable. in 99.9% of cases the choice should be painfully clear and easy to make. you're either presenting yourself to the world as feminine or masculine. we're talking about in public.

 

if you had a unisex bathroom it would virtually never get used... except for all the men and women who would start going in there just to avoid the dirty/crowded male and female bathrooms :lol:

  • Tchuck, Android and iBUCKEYE like this

ΣΓ
  • ΣΓ

    Never Settle

  • $outh $ide Hoodz
  • Joined: 26 Nov 2011
  • European-Union

#396

Posted 01 November 2016 - 10:43 PM

Looking at my pub card it says nothing of sex. You can change the sex on your passport I'm fairly sure, although I think the government should still quietly  acknowledge you as your biological sex. You should be able to change the sex on your passport to avoid being outed as trans but I think for statistical purposes we should record only peoples' biological sex. 
 
The alt-right are indeed bigoted, and they consider gender to be an expression of biology rather than a set of coercive expectations that divide labour.

What are the downsides of being outed? Or rather what are the upsides of hiding your identity?

Like any movement, it's hard to generalize. It's very easy, for instance, to say that feminists who believe that a rape culture exists (in developed Western countries) are bigoted against men. It does begin to sound like hate towards them to any reasonable person because it sounds like a misuse of the term "culture". Not to mention that there are real places in the world where rape is actually condoned by their society at large to an extent that is incomparable to places like the US or most of Europe. This is not to say that there are no men who try to justify sexual assault: it does happen but it's not part of our culture to any large extent to justify the phrase "rape culture". It's really no different than saying that there is a "theft culture" among black people when the reality is in fact much more complicated.

The alt-right's opinion on gender tends to be the way you describe it but this whole nature vs. nurture thing sounds like a false dichotomy to me. It could be and probably is both (but societal pressures\influences probably matter more). This whole gender discussion sounds like debating semantics. People who oppose having many genders generally seem to think that gender=sex. Why not just use the term "sex" then?
 
 

I don't understand why we would need unisex bathrooms, either.
striving for absolute equality is one thing but there's still such a thing as simple pragmatism.
 
what percentage of the population need a separate unisex restroom?
I thought the whole point of this debate is that it's a lot less complex than we're making it.... obviously an individual can have a complex sexuality but when it comes to where you're just pissing in public, there's no reason to add any other choices than the Men's or Women's restroom. transmen use the guys room, transwomen use the ladies room. if you're truly gender fluid? you go where you most fit in and would make yourself and everyone around you most comfortable. in 99.9% of cases the choice should be painfully clear and easy to make. you're either presenting yourself to the world as feminine or masculine. we're talking about in public.
 
if you had a unisex bathroom it would virtually never get used... except for all the men and women who would start going in there just to avoid the dirty/crowded male and female bathrooms :lol:

This whole debate kinda makes gender segregated restrooms make less sense. If you had the most amount of privacy possible in there then separating people by gender would make little to no sense. I think what we need is to increase privacy then no one will really care who goes where.

El Diablo
  • El Diablo

    "The Devil" ™

  • Leone Family Mafia
  • Joined: 03 Aug 2002
  • Mars
  • April Fools Loser 2015

#397

Posted 02 November 2016 - 02:33 AM

ok sure, but we still need Mens and Womens rooms.

I dunno if you've ever been to a Mens bathroom during a football game  :lol:  but ladies aren't going to want to go in there, no matter how much 'privacy' they have.


BrownBear
  • BrownBear

    Moonraker.

  • Members
  • Joined: 05 Jul 2009
  • United-Kingdom

#398

Posted 02 November 2016 - 02:46 AM Edited by BrownBear, 02 November 2016 - 02:48 AM.

I'm not sure if this has been discussed, but I was interested whether you guys believe that people should be allowed sex change operations under free health care, like the NHS?

Also, where do you guys stand on children receiving sex change operations? That is one thing I can't agree with, personally. I don't see how anyone could think that a child has the mentality to fully understand what they are taking on.


El Diablo
  • El Diablo

    "The Devil" ™

  • Leone Family Mafia
  • Joined: 03 Aug 2002
  • Mars
  • April Fools Loser 2015

#399

Posted 02 November 2016 - 03:03 AM

children? no.

kids/young teens can dress and act and go out in public how they and their family choose. there's no law against a boy dressing as a girl and vise versa. a young person might recognize from an early age that they desire a sex change - the way most gay/queer people realize their own orientation long before coming out - but I don't see how you can ethically perform the operation on someone who isn't even 18 yet. certain aspects of sex reassignment are obviously irreversible and you gotta' be extremely sure that this is what you need.

 

there are also plenty of 'trans' people who live their life as the opposite gender but elected to keep their natural genitals. they simply don't want to mess with their ability to achieve natural orgasm. it's a very complex decision and cannot be made by an immature mind.

 

I also think that it still has to be an elective surgery / process.

health care should be about the essential things that all of us require to stay alive and healthy. we don't need to subsidize the fraction of the population who wants this. unless we somehow reach the point that all other diseases and cancers have been cured, we don't need to add sexual reassignment to the standard health insurance package.

  • BrownBear and Carbonox like this

BrownBear
  • BrownBear

    Moonraker.

  • Members
  • Joined: 05 Jul 2009
  • United-Kingdom

#400

Posted 02 November 2016 - 03:18 AM Edited by BrownBear, 02 November 2016 - 03:21 AM.

children? no.

kids/young teens can dress and act and go out in public how they and their family choose. there's no law against a boy dressing as a girl and vise versa. a young person might recognize from an early age that they desire a sex change - the way most gay/queer people realize their own orientation long before coming out - but I don't see how you can ethically perform the operation on someone who isn't even 18 yet. certain aspects of sex reassignment are obviously irreversible and you gotta' be extremely sure that this is what you need.

 

there are also plenty of 'trans' people who live their life as the opposite gender but elected to keep their natural genitals. they simply don't want to mess with their ability to achieve natural orgasm. it's a very complex decision and cannot be made by an immature mind.

 

I also think that it still has to be an elective surgery / process.

health care should be about the essential things that all of us require to stay alive and healthy. we don't need to subsidize the fraction of the population who wants this. unless we somehow reach the point that all other diseases and cancers have been cured, we don't need to add sexual reassignment to the standard health insurance package.

Seems like our opinions are very much the same on the subject. I was watching a documentary about transgender kids and I found it hard to watch, I can't lie. For example, a 10 year old was given drugs to stop him going through puberty. It's sad that kids don't feel comfortable, but I just can't believe that parents could make such drastic, irreversible decisions because their child is unhappy.

 

Another thing I'd like to know your guys opinion on, as I don't really know too much about the issue. As to the rise in people having sex changes, do you guys think it is more prevalent now because it has become a cultural identity? Because people feel more comfortable to do it? Or simply because of the improvement of medical procedures?

Do you guys think it is a purely biological issue, or is it cultural as well? For example, I knew a girl who was planning to have an operation to become a man, but her whole family was similar. Her brother had also had a sex change operation and their mother ran away when their father came out as gay. I'm just wondering, surely a situation like this arises because of the environment she grew up in? Having said that, I guess everyone has their own reasons. 

I don't mean to start an argument, as like I said I don't really understand it well and I certainly have nothing against Transgender people.


El Diablo
  • El Diablo

    "The Devil" ™

  • Leone Family Mafia
  • Joined: 03 Aug 2002
  • Mars
  • April Fools Loser 2015

#401

Posted 02 November 2016 - 03:46 AM

I don't know that I would call it a 'rise' of anything.

in the sense that.. there's technically not more gay/queer people today than in past generations. they were always among us obviously. the [huge] difference now is that society and cultures are finally coming to accept gay/queer and embrace them as fellow human beings, and so these people no longer have to hide themselves or live a life of lies. they can merely be who they are with much less fear of shame or rejection than even just a few decades ago.

 

it's like the so called 'phenomena' of police brutality against poor/black people.

there's not more police brutality or misconduct but suddenly EVERYONE has a camera and there's footage being recorded of everything all the damn time. it's being exposed but the behavior itself I don't necessarily see as 'on the rise' either.

 

as for whether or not growing up in an environment of gay and genderqueer people increases your own likelihood?

I mean, I don't think so, because clearly the vast majority of gay couples who adopt or raise children through in-vitro have straight children. because that's still the genetic norm. I'm pretty sure (by their own admission) most gay people are definitely born that way. they've always known it. no one influenced them or anything. perhaps a small minority of people come to be 'gay' or genderfluid as a function of their bisexuality; and over time they come to prefer a certain type of partner. beyond that it's really hard to say. admittedly I'm straight as an arrow so my insight is limited to conversations with gay friends or the consumption of literature and research on the issue.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users