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Gender & Sexuality

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.Vooodu.
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#361

Posted 04 September 2017 - 05:50 PM

So in other words; you don't have any counterarguments, can't rebut anything I said and are essentially throwing in the towel because your argument is sh*t and not representative of reality.

 

Got it.

 

 

The proof is in the pudding..    If you want to me prove my gender i can send you some nude pics.    I never through the towel in on anything.. The fight was over before it even started really.

 

 

That being said..  I think this video i found pretty much bring it more inline with what you're looking for in terms of reality.

 

 

 

Watch it if you want..  Its your choice.


El Diablo
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#362

Posted 04 September 2017 - 06:14 PM

The proof

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Dealux
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#363

Posted 04 September 2017 - 06:22 PM

I don't really think that's the point here though. Voodu seems to be saying that he will only recognize someone's biological sex, and not how they identify. I think that is a bit radical, and I don't choose that myself, but he's free to choose that. That's his liberty to do so. I do think it matters whether someone actually passes as whatever they want to be called, and that whatever they want to be called is a real word (he or she, and not xir). But in practice I would generally conform out of courtesy to how someone wants to be called.

And that is not just due to socialization. That's not a tenable idea.

What is worrisome about the current transgender fad is the increasing trend to start the physical transformation before puberty, considering the amount of mental health issues transgender people deal with, and due to the fact that 80-95% learn to accept their biological sex post puberty.

Well, the same can be said about homosexuality can't it? We made the decision that it is normal, because it occurs regularly and naturally. But concerning gender dysphoria a large amount of caution is warranted.

I would call a trans person a "he" or a "she" for the sake of civility but I draw the line at invented pronouns. I also think that the idea of gender fluidity is bullsh*t based on confusion. It's not like I feel (subjectively) as distinctly male even though I identify as one. Why is identity such a big deal to some people?

Because then you would have to wonder where these gender differences came from? At some point they had to have spawned from biological differences.

It is troubling for me as well. As a child you can't be held responsible for anything. Why on earth would it be a good idea to just trust that a kid who wants to transition knows the full implications of such a choice (or could not change their mind as they reach adulthood)?

I keep seeing this comparison being thrown in discussions like this but I think it is a false analogy. Homosexuality is a matter of preference that is based on a number of factors. I can wrap my head around why someone would be into the same sex. Most people can feel some attraction in the way gay people do, but the whole trans thing is hard to understand. It doesn't make sense to me why trans people think that identity is so important when, as I pointed out above, there is nothing distinctly male about my experience and I identify as male. I would honestly not care at all if someone called me a girl (i.e. the wrong gender). I don't see that aspect of identity as a central part of my subjective experience.
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Uncle Sikee Atric
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#364

Posted 04 September 2017 - 06:24 PM Edited by Uncle Sikee Atric, 04 September 2017 - 06:32 PM.

Ah, .Voodu. Black Pigeon Speaks is a Youtube channel and not affiliated to any reputable organizations or anyone else with a base understanding of mental issues.  Plus the comments on that video make it look like the viewers all should be donning their white robes and dancing around burning effigies of ethnic minorities and mental patients.  One comment on the video is :
 

Don't feed your kids GMOS and foods that have estrogen in them. That's one of the main causes for the huge increase in gays and trans.

 
Seriously, that comment is proof alone that this opinion piece should be thrown out of this thread and never commented on again.

This video is an opinion, not fact.  Nor is it suitable for a Debate and Discussion Thread, or anywhere else for that matter.
 
When are you going to realize, your ability to debate is laughable and your opinion is so badly outdated and irrelevant, you still think Sigmund Freud was right all the time, even though his theories all generally point to some form of incest and were forgotten about decades ago. (I did the university modules on his work and he really was batsh*t crazy!)

Just take your opinions and shove them up your arse, or is your sexuality too offended by even that suggestion?

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#365

Posted 04 September 2017 - 07:24 PM

but the whole trans thing is hard to understand. It doesn't make sense to me why trans people think that identity is so important when, as I pointed out above, there is nothing distinctly male about my experience and I identify as male.

One way I've seen it put from trans women is that they look in the mirror, see a man and it just looks wrong; or they look down at their crotch and they're disgusted, as it feels like a penis just isn't supposed to be there. Since society has certain things like clothing and make up given as more feminine or masculine, they prefer wearing feminine clothing and the like because it makes them feel more like a woman, whereas predominantly masculine clothing etc. feel wrong, or out of place.

It's not a case of feeling neutral in a male body and happy in a female body, it's more discomfort with being male and mere comfort with being female, with the comfort being a feeling of normality.
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.Vooodu.
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#366

Posted 04 September 2017 - 08:17 PM

Ah, .Voodu. Black Pigeon Speaks is a Youtube channel and not affiliated to any reputable organizations or anyone else with a base understanding of mental issues.  Plus the comments on that video make it look like the viewers all should be donning their white robes and dancing around burning effigies of ethnic minorities and mental patients.  One comment on the video is :

 

 

Lol @ not affiliated to any reputable organizations.    Did you even watch the video?  Probably not..     

You seem to care more about stupid comments in the comment section.  (hey look guys stupid comments)  And then ignore the video..

 

 

Maybe this video is more for your liking.   Heres a huge cup of cringe SJW TV.

 

 

 

 

Trust Bill Nye.. Hes a real scientist.  :D


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#367

Posted 04 September 2017 - 08:32 PM

There's this thing called "Articles". YT videos, something that can be made by any fool, isn't an "Article". A sane person who knows how debates work would trust these "Articles" more than peanut videos. I suggest you try looking for 'em first before you call people's posts "stupid".

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Uncle Sikee Atric
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#368

Posted 04 September 2017 - 09:11 PM Edited by Uncle Sikee Atric, 04 September 2017 - 09:12 PM.

 

Ah, .Voodu. Black Pigeon Speaks is a Youtube channel and not affiliated to any reputable organizations or anyone else with a base understanding of mental issues.  Plus the comments on that video make it look like the viewers all should be donning their white robes and dancing around burning effigies of ethnic minorities and mental patients.  One comment on the video is :

 
 
Lol @ not affiliated to any reputable organizations.    Did you even watch the video?  Probably not..     

You seem to care more about stupid comments in the comment section.  (hey look guys stupid comments)  And then ignore the video..
 
 
Maybe this video is more for your liking.   Heres a huge cup of cringe SJW TV.

Spoiler
 

Trust Bill Nye.. Hes a real scientist.   :D

 


That's more irrelevent than the last trash, but at least I'll respond to the whole piece, rather than just cutting the first sentence, as if the rest is totally irrelevent.

Every time you get shot down and torn up by the rest of us, you just go completely idiotic and start posting utter drivel. Like a troll that knows he's lost the argument, but refuses to admit defeat. It just demostrates your inability to discuss and a very low I.Q. level (Goggle it if you need to).

I can post just as irrelevent crap as you can, but at least my post might actually contain some humor.

 

Nigel-Farage-Photo-Casebook-13-e14806163

(This is just about your level.)

 

If you wanna carry on posting crap, please feel free, but it's best to just give up and move out of the Debate and Discussion area and seriously consider your ability to return and submit useful content....

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.Vooodu.
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#369

Posted 04 September 2017 - 09:31 PM Edited by .Vooodu., 04 September 2017 - 09:33 PM.

 

 

Ah, .Voodu. Black Pigeon Speaks is a Youtube channel and not affiliated to any reputable organizations or anyone else with a base understanding of mental issues.  Plus the comments on that video make it look like the viewers all should be donning their white robes and dancing around burning effigies of ethnic minorities and mental patients.  One comment on the video is :

 
 
Lol @ not affiliated to any reputable organizations.    Did you even watch the video?  Probably not..     

You seem to care more about stupid comments in the comment section.  (hey look guys stupid comments)  And then ignore the video..
 
 
Maybe this video is more for your liking.   Heres a huge cup of cringe SJW TV.

Spoiler
 

Trust Bill Nye.. Hes a real scientist.   :D

 

Every time you get shot down and torn up by the rest of us, you just go completely idiotic and start posting utter drivel. Like a troll that knows he's lost the argument, 

 

 

Hmmm...  Im not sure where i lost any argument.  

 

 

And as far as getting "shot down and torn up by the rest of you"  Dafuk are you talking about?      Are you slippin me Cosby Juice when im not looking?  When did this happen?  Hope you guys used protection.. 

 

Also.. acting a complete idiot is pretty much my personality.   Well, slightly.  I try walk that line.  Where i get pushed is where i end up.

 

I mean...What are you trying to say?  Some old ass man can be a Tranny little girl and thats cool..

 

But I 'act'  like an idiot" and you lose damn mind?    Would it help if i wore a dress?


El Diablo
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#370

Posted 04 September 2017 - 09:58 PM

this is going great....

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ten-a-penny
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#371

Posted 04 September 2017 - 10:03 PM

Can somebody bar Vooodu from posting in the D&D section until he learns how debates work? Thank you.

 

 

At least I stay off this sh*t and be the "spectator", meaning that I (hopefully) don't say utter bullsh*t drivel then run away without even backup up the sh*t I sprouted.

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D.B. Cooper
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#372

Posted 05 September 2017 - 03:42 AM

 

What is worrisome about the current transgender fad is the increasing trend to start the physical transformation before puberty, considering the amount of mental health issues transgender people deal with, and due to the fact that 80-95% learn to accept their biological sex post puberty.

It is troubling for me as well. As a child you can't be held responsible for anything. Why on earth would it be a good idea to just trust that a kid who wants to transition knows the full implications of such a choice (or could not change their mind as they reach adulthood)?

Kids don't get put on estrogen or testosterone or go under any long-term transitioning meds/surgeries until they're at least 16/17/18 to my knowledge. The only thing that is prescribed to trans kids are hormone blockers for the time being. I'm not an expert with trans stuff but I know for sure that no prepubescent kid is going under a mastectomy or going under HRT.


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#373

Posted 05 September 2017 - 05:21 AM

Hmmm...  Im not sure where i lost any argument.

Pretty much the moment you opened your mouth. Deciding to publicly demonstrate your ignorance of a subject is normally a monumentally stupid idea.
 

Also.. acting a complete idiot is pretty much my personality.

"Acting" suggests you aren't a complete idiot, which is patently untrue based on the utter drivel you've posted in D&D so far.
 

Tranny

Oh dear.
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Melchior
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#374

Posted 05 September 2017 - 05:23 AM

 

 

What is worrisome about the current transgender fad is the increasing trend to start the physical transformation before puberty, considering the amount of mental health issues transgender people deal with, and due to the fact that 80-95% learn to accept their biological sex post puberty.

It is troubling for me as well. As a child you can't be held responsible for anything. Why on earth would it be a good idea to just trust that a kid who wants to transition knows the full implications of such a choice (or could not change their mind as they reach adulthood)?

Kids don't get put on estrogen or testosterone or go under any long-term transitioning meds/surgeries until they're at least 16/17/18 to my knowledge. The only thing that is prescribed to trans kids are hormone blockers for the time being. I'm not an expert with trans stuff but I know for sure that no prepubescent kid is going under a mastectomy or going under HRT.

 

Hormone blockers are a radical intervention with long-term side effects. 

 

And prepubescents by definition do not require mastectomies, because they don't have breasts. 

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Dealux
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#375

Posted 06 September 2017 - 03:47 AM

Hormone blockers are not exactly side-effect free so it's not exactly a safe solution. Not to mention that children don't know sh*t.
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#376

Posted 14 September 2017 - 05:50 PM

Hormone blockers are not exactly side-effect free so it's not exactly a safe solution. Not to mention that children don't know sh*t.

But that's the exact reason hormone blockers exist... The point of them is to delay puberty temporarily to buy time and determine if transitioning is something they want to do as an adult. There are side effects if the child's on blockers for too long - but within reasonable limits they're completely safe, and the effects are reversible. This is why blockers are never administered for more than a year. Should they be given to pre-pubescents? Personally, no.


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#377

Posted 14 September 2017 - 08:56 PM

How do you transition from a teen to an adult in one year though? The best hope we have is for better treatments to be developed (perhaps preventive ones administered before birth, assuming the cause is physiological) or perhaps a perfected painless sex-change operation. I honestly don't even understand the need for one, unless your own image of yourself causes you great distress. Society will still judge you as a trans person as opposed to a real biological equivalent and no amount of tolerance will change that (but science will, eventually).

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#378

Posted 4 weeks ago Edited by N R G, 4 weeks ago.

I'm a firm believer that there are two genders, male and female. I will not, ever believe anything otherwise unless scientifically proven that there is more than two. I believe that transgenderism is a mental illness but I do not see anything wrong with someone being transgender, in-fact I support transgendered people 100% and would follow their gender choice just as long as it was either male or female. If the gender code they chose to follow was none of the two I would simply ignore any interaction with them in-which I had to address them by their desired pronoun because I refuse to break what we have set as a society, what we have at the moment has worked for decades and I see no point in introducing another god knows how many genders into society, quite frankly it's extremely destructive and confusing. Just look at those children being raised as non-gender binary, they’re going to grow up so confused.

I think it’s ridiculous that we have some people in society trying to break the societal laws we have in place, they’re an extreme minority who have set themselves aside as outcasts because majority of the rest of the world is confused by what they’re trying to accomplish.

I also do not support those adults identifying as trans(gendered/aged?) children, I’m sure they mean well (at least I hope) but it’s morally wrong and deeply disturbing. They had their chance at childhood, it’s time to grow up.

As for sexuality, I believe that by default all species are on a spectrum of bi-sexuality, although not all species are as flexible as humans, think of it like 0-100, 0 being preference to males 100% and 100 being preference to females 100%. I would place myself at 0 because I only have a sexual preference to males but I'm not an idiot, I can tell when women are attractive, as men can tell when men are attractive as well as women being able to tell when women are attractive. We're an intelligent species, we all know when someone is aesthetically pleasing, I do not understand why some people deny being able to tell when someone of the same sex is attractive, it makes no sense.

Necrophilia, paedophile, bestiality, etc. are NOT sexualities, they’re something far more deep rooted into the mind caused by something traumatic, for anyone to claim that it is a sexuality, is an idiot.

With all that said, these are just my opinions and beliefs, I respect the opinions and beliefs of others but if they conflict with mine I most likely won't care about them but I'm mature enough to mind my own business, to not fight to prove someone else wrong because it will be a never-ending battle that no one will win.

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#379

Posted 4 weeks ago Edited by El Diablo, 4 weeks ago.

I haven't waded into this topic in awhile, but we gotta' clear this sh/t up a little bit.

this discussion about transsexual transition and when exactly it's age appropriate is getting slightly off-topic. we need to reestablish the basic reality here...

 

gender is in your head. gender is not between your legs.

the classic example would be a male soldier who goes to war and loses his genitals in a serious injury. when that soldier recovers, he still identifies as a man regardless of the fact that he no longer has a penis and/or testicles. your outward gender identity is a psychological construct based on how you interact with society and how you wish to be perceived. the overwhelming majority of people who transition away from their 'birth gender' always knew how they felt deep down inside. it wasn't a choice they had to make. they looked in the mirror and saw the wrong person. they didn't feel the way they looked. and so they changed how they looked in order to better match up with how they already felt.

 

sexuality is a little more complicated. sexuality is still heavily tied to society.

some men who transition into women are still attracted to women. they often call themselves 'lesbian' at this point. some men who transition into women are attracted to men. they often call themselves 'straight' at this point. it would be unfair to call them 'gay' because they truly identify as a woman.

 

many of these people go through a period of simply being 'gay' because of the great confusion and stigma involved in transsexuality.

but this label is incorrect based on their gender.

 

food for thought

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#380

Posted 3 weeks ago

Actually the trans subject is the one that's more complicated and it isn't as simple as you put it.

First of all, gender was never just about the way you feel (i.e. gender identity). Being a man or a woman used to be and arguably still is an ensemble of psychological\behavioral and physical traits that the two sexes largely exhibit. This push to redefine what a woman or man is is actually not based in any concrete science. We don't even know exactly what makes a person experience gender dysphoria but it is clearly some sort of mental condition. Gender roles are a somewhat separate subject. Even if they were mostly abolished people would still largely identify as either male or female because that is the natural state of most human beings.

Also, insisting that gender is just something that you feel subjectively renders the whole word useless because no two subjective experiences are completely alike so there could potentially be 7 billion genders. That begins to sound like you're trying to say that you are an individual or something, which is fine, but there is nothing wrong with categorizing people by their sex most of the time. The only people that strongly feel that the word should be redefined are trans people. 1-5% of the population shouldn't dictate how language works. Language has never worked that way and I'm not a big fan of arguments purely based on compassion.
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#381

Posted 3 weeks ago

it's not an argument based on compassion, although I am sympathetic towards people who experience gender dysphoria...

 

it's an argument based on simple reality.

until you can somehow prove otherwise, we have to assume that these people are born this way and that there's nothing inherently wrong with helping them become more comfortable in their own skin. I have to take these people at their word.

 

we're not "redefining" language for 5% of the population.

we're just trying to help them assimilate into society and enjoy a normal life like everybody else. you're not looking at this realistically; you're taking the implications way too far. trans people have always existed. the only difference is that they're less afraid to be open about it nowadays.

 

we have to accommodate them.

they're not going to disappear.


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#382

Posted 3 weeks ago Edited by Eutyphro, 3 weeks ago.

gender is in your head. gender is not between your legs.

the classic example would be a male soldier who goes to war and loses his genitals in a serious injury. when that soldier recovers, he still identifies as a man regardless of the fact that he no longer has a penis and/or testicles. 

He's not a male because he has, or doesn't have, a penis. He's a male because the DNA in every cell in his body says so. It's not a good example you have given. You are attacking a strange strawman. Nobody is arguing the essence of being a man is to have a penis.
 

the overwhelming majority of people who transition away from their 'birth gender' always knew how they felt deep down inside. 

Over 90% of children with gender dysphoria learn to accept their biological sex post puberty.
 

your outward gender identity is a psychological construct based on how you interact with society and how you wish to be perceived.

There's an over 99 percent correlation between biological sex and gender identity. To pretend they are not causally related is delusional. It's also strange to argue that gender is both a 'construct', and thus fluctuating, and 'constant', that everybody always has known what they are inside. You need to make up your mind about what position you want to argue for of these two. Right now you are summing up socially desirable cliches that don't cohere.

Regardless, I think respect for transsexuals is important. I'm not arguing for a conservative position where transsexuality is considered a mental illness. But I am arguing for a sense of realism.
 

until you can somehow prove otherwise, we have to assume that these people are born this way

So, once again, they are born this way, but it is also a psychological construct? That doesn't make sense.

 

 I have to take these people at their word.

It's silly to pretend we have to take people at their word unconditionally regarding their identity. You say that because it sounds like a socially desirable thing to say. Not because you really believe it. Identity is a negotiated construct. That is how you, and everyone practices it. Nobody lets others define their own identity merely at their own. That's delusional egocentrism.
 

we have to accommodate them.

they're not going to disappear.

I agree with that. That's simply reasonable.

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#383

Posted 3 weeks ago Edited by ΣΓ, 3 weeks ago.

it's not an argument based on compassion, although I am sympathetic towards people who experience gender dysphoria...
 
it's an argument based on simple reality.
until you can somehow prove otherwise, we have to assume that these people are born this way and that there's nothing inherently wrong with helping them become more comfortable in their own skin. I have to take these people at their word.
 
we're not "redefining" language for 5% of the population.
we're just trying to help them assimilate into society and enjoy a normal life like everybody else. you're not looking at this realistically; you're taking the implications way too far. trans people have always existed. the only difference is that they're less afraid to be open about it nowadays.

Common retorts coming from the trans activist side are often phrased like "you're lacking empathy for trans people". Empathy doesn't give you reason. Reason gives you a justification for empathy. Also, you can feel bad for trans people but not actually agree with the ideology that's being promoted by the people claiming to represent them.

There is nothing simple about it. The irony of people insisting that a lack of empathy on this topic is the problem is quite funny to me because as a normal person you can't actually identify with what a trans person feels. There are a lot of things empathy can help you understand but being trans isn't one of them. I tried to understand it myself but it is still not something that I can imagine feeling. The most apt comparison I've heard was that being trans is like being told that you are a girl even though you were born a boy (biologically, but obviously a trans person only "feels" like the opposite gender but there is something to that comparison). OK. I can imagine that. I can imagine that growing up like that would be tough but if people started calling me a girl today and behaved in my presence as if I were one, I can't really imagine being upset much. Perhaps dating would be a nightmare but other than that would it really prevent me from having a life? I certainly don't think it would make suicidal. So I kinda turned that comparison on its head. The high suicide rates among trans people (even after transitioning) suggest that this issue is a mental one to whatever extent.

You haven't followed the trans activist arguments closely. What they ultimately want is for their definition of gender to be synonymous with sex. You may think that's not true and they claim that the two are not the same but in actuality they do want those to be the same because they insist that asking whether or not someone is a biological male or female (which is relevant for many reasons) is some sort of aggression. So in essence they are asking everyone to just pretend that a trans woman is the same as a biological one for all intents and purposes. There are already trans activists that think that preferring biologically male or female partners is discriminatory as if someone can be entitled to sex or something. These ideas don't exist in a vacuum.

I don't think any reasonable person is denying the subjective experiences of trans people. They do indeed experience something that makes them behave or feel the way they do. It's usually the ideology that's being promoted on the trans activist side that's being opposed. Not actual trans people. Most people (I think) would agree that a civilized society should treat all people the same.
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#384

Posted 2 weeks ago

The irony of people insisting that a lack of empathy on this topic is the problem is quite funny to me because as a normal person you can't actually identify with what a trans person feels.

Nor a person of another gender. Nor a person of another race. Nor a person of another culture. Or just any other human being in general. This is fundamentally xenophobic argument. "They are different, therefore, I cannot know how they feel," has been used as an excuse for some utterly horrible things.

The entire function of empathy is projection of your own emotion onto another entity based on extrapolation from common factors. You don't need to be dissatisfied with your biological sex to know what it's like to feel like an outcast, to be questioning if anything that happened to you is result of you being different, and so on. We all have these core experiences to some degree or another. None of this is completely alien. Only the circumstances are different. This is why empathy works at all between any two human beings. And trying to raise walls based on differences, saying that empathy cannot apply, is exactly what allowed for every single genocide we've seen. You don't want to be in that camp.

You haven't followed the trans activist arguments closely. What they ultimately want is for their definition of gender to be synonymous with sex. You may think that's not true and they claim that the two are not the same but in actuality they do want those to be the same because they insist that asking whether or not someone is a biological male or female (which is relevant for many reasons) is some sort of aggression. So in essence they are asking everyone to just pretend that a trans woman is the same as a biological one for all intents and purposes. There are already trans activists that think that preferring biologically male or female partners is discriminatory as if someone can be entitled to sex or something. These ideas don't exist in a vacuum.

And religious activists want creation to be taught in school. And gun activists want to drop all regulation. And don't get me started on lobbyists from corporations.

You are taking the views of a tiny minority, really, really tiny minority, which just happens to be particularly vocal, and projecting it on general population. Spend some time actually talking to people representing minority groups. Not the few aggressive ones you meet on the internet, because they are statistically very likely to have extremist views. That's why things they say catch attention in the first place. But with people you meet randomly, where maybe you didn't even realize at the first glance that they hold to a particular religion, culture, or gender identity. Because right now, you're not even talking about real human beings. You are operating with stereotypes. Vile, xenophobic stereotypes. There are a few people who match these stereotypes, absolutely. There will be people who match any stereotype, no matter how horrible. But if that's what you gauge people in general population by, you are just a bigot hiding behind a facade of false logic.

You can say that you think people should be treated equally all you want, but they aren't. This is exactly the same situation that's currently unfolding in Russia, for example, with treatment of homosexuals. Government officially supports equal rights. But at the same time, enacts laws banning "propaganda of homosexuality," which in practice means that these minorities cannot defend themselves. They are not allowed to do things as simple as hold a rally, or print educational information. So while the law says they are all equal, the society grows ever more toxic, and in practice, crimes are constantly committed against minorities, and police do f*ck all.

This is a somewhat extreme case, but transgender individuals in many of the first world countries are going through the same problems. They have to organize and they have to try to push through some sort of a coherent platform. Because average person simply isn't familiar with any of these issues. And from ignorance comes xenophobia and often violence. And instead of showing a bit of empathy here, you are attacking the very attempt to self-organize on the basis of a few individuals who've exploited the voice they've gotten to spew nonsense. Moreover, you try to push that through under guise of enlightenment, when your entire position is based on a very narrow view, bad stereotypes, and limited information.

And I can tell you all of that with certainty, because a few years ago I'd be inclined to agree with you. Because I was also exposed primarily to the same garbage of information you have. Since then, I've met a number of transgender individuals at work and in various communities, some of whom I'd never guess were transgender if they didn't acknowledge it. Absolutely none of them were radical. And yet, absolutely each of them has experienced an undeserved quantity of bile from all manner of people. And this will keep happening if we don't start talking about this on a more even footing and with a lot more empathy. We do need some formal declaration of transgender rights in law. We do need to establish some norms and terminology, even if it seems unfair and arbitrary. We've had to do this to fight racism. We've had to do that to fight homophobia. And we'll have to do it again if we want to live in a world where transgender individuals aren't subject to violence and harassment simply because of how they feel. Suck it up. It won't kill anyone to learn a few extra pronouns and be more careful with their use. Ignorance you're trying to promote, even unwittingly, does.
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Dealux
  • Dealux

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#385

Posted 2 weeks ago Edited by ΣΓ, 2 weeks ago.

It sounds like you started making this post at the end of your patience. You misread a whole lot of stuff in that post I made. Perhaps some of that is my poor writing.
 

The entire function of empathy is projection of your own emotion onto another entity based on extrapolation from common factors. You don't need to be dissatisfied with your biological sex to know what it's like to feel like an outcast, to be questioning if anything that happened to you is result of you being different, and so on. We all have these core experiences to some degree or another. None of this is completely alien. Only the circumstances are different. This is why empathy works at all between any two human beings. And trying to raise walls based on differences, saying that empathy cannot apply, is exactly what allowed for every single genocide we've seen. You don't want to be in that camp.

You are taking the views of a tiny minority, really, really tiny minority, which just happens to be particularly vocal, and projecting it on general population. Spend some time actually talking to people representing minority groups. Not the few aggressive ones you meet on the internet, because they are statistically very likely to have extremist views. That's why things they say catch attention in the first place. But with people you meet randomly, where maybe you didn't even realize at the first glance that they hold to a particular religion, culture, or gender identity. Because right now, you're not even talking about real human beings. You are operating with stereotypes. Vile, xenophobic stereotypes. There are a few people who match these stereotypes, absolutely. There will be people who match any stereotype, no matter how horrible. But if that's what you gauge people in general population by, you are just a bigot hiding behind a facade of false logic.

And I can tell you all of that with certainty, because a few years ago I'd be inclined to agree with you. Because I was also exposed primarily to the same garbage of information you have. Since then, I've met a number of transgender individuals at work and in various communities, some of whom I'd never guess were transgender if they didn't acknowledge it. Absolutely none of them were radical. And yet, absolutely each of them has experienced an undeserved quantity of bile from all manner of people. And this will keep happening if we don't start talking about this on a more even footing and with a lot more empathy. We do need some formal declaration of transgender rights in law. We do need to establish some norms and terminology, even if it seems unfair and arbitrary. We've had to do this to fight racism. We've had to do that to fight homophobia. And we'll have to do it again if we want to live in a world where transgender individuals aren't subject to violence and harassment simply because of how they feel. Suck it up. It won't kill anyone to learn a few extra pronouns and be more careful with their use. Ignorance you're trying to promote, even unwittingly, does.

That's not what I said though. My argument was that empathy doesn't teach you what it's like to be trans. Not the day to day stuff, the bad experiences, but the subjective experience of identifying with a different gender. That's something that empathy nor science can't currently touch.

My argument here was that people generally oppose the trans activism promoted by those people not trans people themselves. I also mentioned that these activists claim to speak on trans people's behalf. I'm under no illusion that these people represent all trans people.

I have nothing against them but honestly I'm not fully on board with the trans thing, especially them wishing to redefine words that worked fine before. That IS a radical belief according to most\a lot of people. Simply wanting to identify with another gender doesn't make you that but at the same time I wouldn't be a dick and refuse to use one of the two pronouns that you prefer. I'm definitely not on board with new pronouns. People who want things like that sound like whiny brats to me.

Edit: Also, please, for the love of god, stop comparing what trans people experience to racism. It makes you sound historically ignorant or bad at making analogies.

Eutyphro
  • Eutyphro

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#386

Posted 2 weeks ago

You are taking the views of a tiny minority, really, really tiny minority, which just happens to be particularly vocal, and projecting it on general population. Spend some time actually talking to people representing minority groups. Not the few aggressive ones you meet on the internet, because they are statistically very likely to have extremist views. [...] Since then, I've met a number of transgender individuals at work and in various communities, some of whom I'd never guess were transgender if they didn't acknowledge it.

I think you are really completely missing his point concerning what he specifically said about transgender activists. What he said about transgender activists and their views is factually accurate. The irony is that you yourself are generalizing and failing to make an important distinction. There is no such thing as 'representing minority groups'. These people were not elected and don't represent anyone but their own fringe ideology. The trans activists are very extreme, and yes many trans people are very reasonable and moderate. Sure.

I somewhat agree with you on the empathy point, bit think that the way you are delivering it is a bit pompous and grandstanding.

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Dealux
  • Dealux

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#387

Posted A week ago Edited by Dealux, A week ago.

I think I found my favorite YouTube comment and it got me thinking.

"Gender has no value. Identifying yourself as anything is of no value, including gender identity. Identity actually has no value in itself. It separates us."

In day to day life gender very rarely comes up. I don't even really feel much like a man most of the time which is what puzzles me about the trans experience. Why is it so important to identify as something? After all, you are (mostly) free to express yourself as you wish. Making wholesale changes to yourself seems like too much trouble just to feel comfortable doing something different.

Hayduke
  • Hayduke

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#388

Posted 2 days ago

I mean, you are a male and have a privilege due to that, your gender doesn't have to be a concern for you and that is why you can afford not to care. Most of us on this website and on the planet are disadvantaged because of the circumstances we're born under, so the pure chance of gender doesn't mean your advantage has a massive effect in the world and its not an insult to say you have a privilege, privilege doesn't mean fault, but it is important to understand it exists and Tue power it gives over others, even it you don't feel like it does.




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