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What is your POV on theism and vice versa?

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.Smaher.
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#61

Posted 06 September 2015 - 05:41 PM Edited by .Smaher., 06 September 2015 - 05:42 PM.

Neither religious people can prove that god exists. And atheists cant prove that he doesn't . thats why both sides are wrong in my opinion.

 

That's subjective. Any kid could call their parents wrong for being nonbelievers in the almighty Kris Kringle. When is there ever a right? 


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#62

Posted 06 September 2015 - 05:43 PM

There's a video here that I think explains everybody's troubles in a nutshell.
 
https://youtu.be/J4DefhoL26M

Exacto Mundo, like I said be an individual, be awesome, quit labeling urselves, stop letting people and the mainstream media, think for u,
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#63

Posted 06 September 2015 - 05:44 PM Edited by Kristian., 06 September 2015 - 05:48 PM.

 

To say that beliefs are fine as long as they don't affect others is a naive position.

I don't think it is. A person is free to demonstrate their objection to abortion by not having them. A person is free to demonstrate their objection to gay marriage by not getting hitched to a same sex partner. These are things that society has effectively decreed via weight of popular opinion should be allowable, so the increasing desperation through which certain elements of society attempt the fight tooth and nsil against these progressions can't really be seen as much more than the last, desperate grasp to hold on to political influence. In the states you're 20 years behind most of Northern Europe in this kind of stuff- we have openly homosexual prime ministers in the EU and the very idea of that would be ridiculous.

Well, generally speaking, religious people who oppose abortion think that it is murder or something akin to it. The belief that society is actively endorsing murder has to move people in a certain direction, especially when they are given the chance to oppose it. Even if you had a bunch of Christians that kept entirely to themselves (it's hard to even imagine what that would look like) you would still find it hard to be friends with one of them now, wouldn't you? How long could you abstain from talking about these controversial things with them? Why would you avoid it to begin with? It's just a disaster waiting to happen. You wouldn't be friends with a racist person and therefore I imagine you wouldn't be friends with one who thinks that homosexuality is a sin or that abortion is murder and therefore always wrong.

That's part of the reason why I think it's naive to think that it doesn't matter. If it didn't matter you would have no trouble being friends with them. You know that there is something wrong with someone who embraces these beliefs. At the very least you would have a much deeper friendship with someone who did not have these potentially harmful beliefs.

 

Except that their beliefs reflect in most areas of their life. How many religious people are not against same-sex marriage or abortion? How many of them would vote for an atheist president? I can tell you with confidence that the answer where I come from is almost zero.

As for religious people not voting for an atheist president, I think that's a perfectly understandable decision on their part, just as it is sensible for atheists to not want a Christian president in office.

 

I would really like to be friends with some of them but it would only take one question (on one of these controversial topics like homosexuality or abortion) to break the illusion that these people are in fact good people.

Something to understand is that most Christians grew up in a time where homosexuality and abortion were shunned. They aren't necessarily "bad people" for holding the beliefs that they have been taught most of their lives. A lot of them are either too stubborn to change or have never had anyone sit down with them and explain why homosexuality and abortion are not bad things.

 

Atheists vote for Christian presidents all the time as long as they are not the batsh*t crazy kind of Christians. I mean if you want to vote what choice do you have as an atheist? You vote for the most reasonable sounding guy even if he's religious.

 

The reason why most religious people wouldn't vote for an atheist president is that they think you can't be a good person if you don't believe in god. That's not an understandable position for any reasonable person. Religion does not have a monopoly on morality.

 

I know that good people and bad people don't exist, that it's not a black and white thing. I use these terms to talk about the general character of a person. I think that most religious people are motivated by something other than religion to be good most of the time (even if they credit religion) but religion often gets in the way of these other more compassionate and well-reasoned motives. That's how you get otherwise good people to behave badly.


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#64

Posted 06 September 2015 - 05:46 PM Edited by Aqua97, 06 September 2015 - 05:48 PM.

What are all your opinions on Pantheism ?   :/  


.Smaher.
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#65

Posted 06 September 2015 - 05:48 PM Edited by .Smaher., 06 September 2015 - 05:49 PM.

Pantheism is alright, I guess. Albert Einstein was a pantheist, I think, and had some pretty good quotes regarding his beliefs. It's a bit like deism to me, though.


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#66

Posted 06 September 2015 - 06:02 PM

I was culturally raised as a Buddhist, so pantheism was sorta like a lifestyle for me, growing up, live and let live, karma, u know all that be good or ill beat ur ass stuff, lol correct me if I'm wrong about pantheism, I always felt like Buddhism and pantheism were somewhat alike...

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#67

Posted 06 September 2015 - 06:03 PM

Neither religious people can prove that god exists. And atheists cant prove that he doesn't . thats why both sides are wrong in my opinion.

That's subjective. Any kid could call their parents wrong for being nonbelievers in the almighty Kris Kringle. When is there ever a right?
The way I see it. Its hard to say there isnt a god when we look around us and wonder who or what created all this. But that's just my opinion. There is no evidence god exist yes. But I also find the fact that some people rule out the idea of a divine power existing out there to be quite ignorant. Im of the opinion that we just don't know as of now and thats it.

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#68

Posted 06 September 2015 - 06:07 PM

let's be real here

like

let's be real real here

hqdefault.jpg

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.Smaher.
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#69

Posted 06 September 2015 - 06:09 PM

 

 

Neither religious people can prove that god exists. And atheists cant prove that he doesn't . thats why both sides are wrong in my opinion.

That's subjective. Any kid could call their parents wrong for being nonbelievers in the almighty Kris Kringle. When is there ever a right?
The way I see it. Its hard to say there isnt a god when we look around us and wonder who or what created all this. But that's just my opinion. There is no evidence god exist yes. But I also find the fact that some people rule out the idea of a divine power existing out there to be quite ignorant. Im of the opinion that we just don't know as of now and thats it.

 

There's only evidence of a beginning. Not a being of which we can ask favors for, and watches us when we're doing something naughty. The only thing I will admit is that the universe is really complicated to understand, BUT I'm still leaning towards the fact that it doesn't actually prove any religious deity, or any kind. We'd have to find it's name, if it has one, how it actually works beyond comprehension, and why in the fresh hell it'd create the universe to begin with..


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#70

Posted 06 September 2015 - 06:10 PM

Children yearn for their absent mother long before ever knowing her name or understanding why she isn't around.

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#71

Posted 06 September 2015 - 06:11 PM Edited by Flesh-n-Bone, 06 September 2015 - 06:11 PM.

That's part of the reason why I think it's naive to think that it doesn't matter. If it didn't matter you would have no trouble being friends with them. You know that there is something wrong with someone who embraces these beliefs. At the very least you would have a much deeper friendship with someone who did not have these potentially harmful beliefs.

 

I think it depends on how strongly you feel about a subject. For me, it doesn't matter as long as they are not actively trying to cause harm or pursuing me to see things their way. But I also tend to avoid political subjects so there's that.


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#72

Posted 06 September 2015 - 06:34 PM Edited by Aqua97, 06 September 2015 - 06:35 PM.

So if Atheists don't believe in any kind of higher power so that must mean that life and the universe has no meaning. Because to have a meaning, it must warrant a higher power ? So if there is no higher power and no meaning that must mean that it all happened by pure luck ?

 

That's what I don't quite get about atheism, the thought that the entirety of everything happened by pure luck and chance ?  I mean take this picture for example, from the Hubble telescope. They zoomed into a small dark point in space where they thought there was northing and took a photo. The complexity of it amazes me, and to think of all of the planets and galaxies that are in that photo, and not to mention the life that has most likely evolved on those planets. I just don't get how one can say it all happened by pure luck and chance ? :/  I'm not trying to say all atheists are wrong though.  :^:   :)               


.Smaher.
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#73

Posted 06 September 2015 - 06:40 PM Edited by .Smaher., 06 September 2015 - 06:41 PM.

So if Atheists don't believe in any kind of higher power so that must mean that life and the universe has no meaning. Because to have a meaning, it must warrant a higher power ? So if there is no higher power and no meaning that must mean that it all happened by pure luck ?

        

 

No one's saying that life happened by chance. We're just saying that there doesn't need to be definite reason. No one can even answer the "why" or "what" question, we've got "how" already pinned on the board, though. The Big Bang Theory never states that the universe was created out of pure chance either. It just tells jow.

 

Also, just because someone's an atheist, doesn't mean that they don't have any purpose in life. That's degenerating, and I've had far to many theists tell me that. I think it's even sillier that people base their meaning in life on getting to somewhere after death, when it should be the opposite. Are you trying to say that without a god to follow, humans would have no morality, and no point in existence? Atheism isn't the same as nihilism. You can still love without the thought that your buddy Jesus, is gonna be your wingman. I'm pretty sure Christians who have themselves a wank don't think about Jesus watching them as much as they should. 

 

I don't need a higher power  to give me meaning. I've survived years without one as well. My life's just fine-ish.

 

Let's agree on one thing, though. Whatever controls the universe seems to know what it's doing.

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#74

Posted 06 September 2015 - 06:48 PM

let's be real here

like

let's be real real here

hqdefault.jpg

 

Basically.

 


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#75

Posted 06 September 2015 - 06:49 PM Edited by Aqua97, 06 September 2015 - 06:53 PM.

 

So if Atheists don't believe in any kind of higher power so that must mean that life and the universe has no meaning. Because to have a meaning, it must warrant a higher power ? So if there is no higher power and no meaning that must mean that it all happened by pure luck ?

        

 

No one's saying that life happened by chance. We're just saying that there doesn't need to be definite reason. No one can even answer the "why" or "what" question, we've got "how" already pinned on the board, though. The Big Bang Theory never states that the universe was created out of pure chance either. It just tells jow.

 

Also, just because someone's an atheist, doesn't mean that they don't have any purpose in life. That's degenerating, and I've had far to many theists tell me that. I think it's even sillier that people base their meaning in life on getting to somewhere after death, when it should be the opposite. Are you trying to say that without a god to follow, humans would have no morality, and no point in existence? Atheism isn't the same as nihilism. You can still love without the thought that your buddy Jesus, is gonna be your wingman. I'm pretty sure Christians who have themselves a wank don't think about Jesus watching them as much as they should. 

 

I don't need a higher power  to give me meaning. I've survived years without one as well. My life's just fine-ish.

 

Let's agree on one thing, though. Whatever controls the universe seems to know what it's doing.

 

I understand where your coming from.    :^:

 

Also, Iv'e always thought that evolution seems to be going somewhere. That's why I'm a Pantheist. And also believe in some sort of a higher power.      


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#76

Posted 06 September 2015 - 06:54 PM

I believe the concept of "meaning" is a human creation. Therefore the idea of life itself having any meaning other than that given to it by humans is false. The idea of "meaning" has to be endowed by a conscious being; if you don't believe on a God there's no reason meaning can't be a product of humanity.
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#77

Posted 06 September 2015 - 07:01 PM

Shouldn't this be in the D&D section though? Actually, I think there's a thread like this already.


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#78

Posted 06 September 2015 - 07:03 PM

Yes, lets get this thread back on track, or post Here>>   :)


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#79

Posted 06 September 2015 - 07:05 PM

The whole point of this thread is to lead to a debate.


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#80

Posted 06 September 2015 - 07:06 PM

 

How the f*ck do you know for sure if there is a god, or if there isnt?

It's a similar principle to the notion of believing in the tooth fairy, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or invisible pink unicorns. Why would any rational, sane, educated person believe that something exists without any evidence to prove that it does? It's a mistake to see it as an active belief that God does not exist; it should be seen as an absence of belief in his existence.

Moreover, I'm of the persuasion that the classical Abrahamic God, even if he did exist, would not be worthy of worship because he's a biblical (pardon the pun) bell-end who actively encourages genocide, raping the women of conquered tribes and executing people for their sexual preferences, whilst simultaneously doing nothing to prevent generations of war, violence, suffering and unhappiness despite being both omnipotent and omniscient.

 

 

Just had to quote this because it's rarely so well put. A million likes to you. 

 

I'm quite familiar with The Bible, as I was once upon a time a Christian fundamentalist, including the gay-bashing and the support of other inequalities and organized spreading of misinformation. 

 

For those of you who don't know me too well, I work for the church as the main verger/sexton/whatever for the biggest and oldest church in the district. While most of the preachings have become much more humanitarian and secular, every now and then someone recites biblical verses which contain the weirdest sh*t. We(they)'ll say "Amen" to the world ending as the day of judgement comes. (Side note, the private school to which I went was an adventist one, so I always went by their doctrine, such as that nothing happens when you die, until Jesus comes and judges everyone and we all go to heaven.) Anyway, it seems so strange to me, to say "let it happen pls" to the end of the world. 

 

That's one of the (many) issues I have with religion, how it makes good people say, think, and do stupid sh*t. How someone could use a (homosexual) friend and classmate's facebook page as a vehicle for anti-gay propaganda all in the name of our good lord and savior Jesus Christ. Someone who went to the same school as I compared homosexuals to Adolf Hitler in the aforementioned facebook post. We had classes together. It's a very good arts school with high GPA requirement for admission, so it's not like she's an idiot or intellectually inferior. She's a smart person who got in her own words "salvation" from her now-husband. Religion is what made her compare her friend and classmate to Hitler just because of said classmate's sexual orientation. 

 

I'm not a fan of any of the major religions. My biggest issue on the subject is secularism. Not only is it ridiculous on its own that the Right party currently in government has worked with The Christian (People's) Party and reinstated Christianity as the focal point of religion/ethics classes in primary school, but it is discrimination against anyone of any other faith. Religion divides us and causes conflict where there shouldn't be any. 

 

 

Except that their beliefs reflect in most areas of their life. How many religious people are not against same-sex marriage or abortion? How many of them would vote for an atheist president? I can tell you with confidence that the answer where I come from is almost zero.

The number of religious people supporting same-sex marriage and abortion is slowly increasing by the day, certainly more than "almost zero". Being a Christian myself, I was homophobic and anti-abortion a few years ago. Now I support same-sex marriage and (to some degree) abortion, while my religious views haven't changed much otherwise.

 
As for religious people not voting for an atheist president, I think that's a perfectly understandable decision on their part, just as it is sensible for atheists to not want a Christian president in office.

 

I would really like to be friends with some of them but it would only take one question (on one of these controversial topics like homosexuality or abortion) to break the illusion that these people are in fact good people.

Something to understand is that most Christians grew up in a time where homosexuality and abortion were shunned. They aren't necessarily "bad people" for holding the beliefs that they have been taught most of their lives. A lot of them are either too stubborn to change or have never had anyone sit down with them and explain why homosexuality and abortion are not bad things.

 

 

It's not understandable on their part. I don't want to vote for someone who claims they know what the universe is all about, and what that is is some deity described in books written the in war-ridden middle east some 3000 years ago. They have the burden of proof, which is still missing. You'd think that in the 2-3000 years of something being completely true, there would be at least a shred of evidence in support of its most outlandish claims. 

 

The other candidate is the one who says "that seems unlikely". Any rational human being would want the country to be run by someone who approaches such claims with skepticism. It's not at all understandable that someone would not vote for an atheist presidential candidate if the only issue on which they disagreed was that of God. It's irrational. 

 

 

 

On the topic of homosexuality, how can you justify your own support for same-sex marriage? Open question to any Christian or Jew in here. 

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.Smaher.
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#81

Posted 06 September 2015 - 07:07 PM

The whole point of this thread is to lead to a debate.

Everything leads to a debate.

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#82

Posted 06 September 2015 - 07:11 PM

Pretty much everything I've read here has been covered either by philosophers (either apologist or atheist) in their books, it's the usual arguments getting rehashed. 

 

I'm an atheist and my two best friends are young-earth creationists. We discuss it on a pretty regular basis, over beers, and we've never been able to offend the others no matter how hard we've tried. 

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#83

Posted 06 September 2015 - 07:19 PM Edited by MyName'sJeff, 06 September 2015 - 07:20 PM.

There's only one way to settle the debate. Both sides of the coin cannot prove jack sh*t about God being real or not, end it there. In terms of my religion, it literally does not tell us to force people to think there is a God, in fact, God encouraged us to spread the religion in a peaceful and friendly way and if people don't accept it, then that's obviously fine, it's all based on belief anyway which is what religion is, belief. I've noticed a lot of people tried to make it out as if a certain religion/religions portray themselves as a fact based book when that's utterly false. Personally, I don't care what you are, even my religion uses logic and common sense by telling me to get on with it and treat everyone nicely and like normal people. I only hate the extremist atheists and the extremists religious people. I particularly hate ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Al-Shabab and every single terrorist organisation out there because they're wrong morally, logically, humanely and religiously.


.Smaher.
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#84

Posted 06 September 2015 - 07:26 PM Edited by .Smaher., 06 September 2015 - 07:32 PM.

Someone hasn't read the old testament. ^^^ 

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#85

Posted 06 September 2015 - 07:29 PM

I'm an atheist, but I respect tradition, so I enjoy the pomp and circumstance of the Catholic Church.  The giant organs and Gothic cathedrals are quite impressive and intimidating.  I also have this weird interest in torture devices from the middle ages, and basically any form of punishment used in the name God.  Thanks for the great reads, Europe.


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#86

Posted 06 September 2015 - 07:31 PM

I'm an atheist, but I respect tradition, so I enjoy the pomp and circumstance of the Catholic Church.  The giant organs and Gothic cathedrals are quite impressive and intimidating.  I also have this weird interest in torture devices from the middle ages, and basically any form of punishment used in the name God.  Thanks for the great reads, Europe.

 

I agree, European churches are beautiful and I always take the time to go visit each one - even in small towns. It's not hard to understand how some medieval or renaissance peasant could've been overwhelmed at the ominous feeling when walking into one of the giant cathedrals in the cities. 

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#87

Posted 06 September 2015 - 07:34 PM

Someone hasn't read the old testament. ^^^ 

 

Someone didn't understand the old testament.


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#88

Posted 06 September 2015 - 07:34 PM Edited by Aqua97, 06 September 2015 - 07:35 PM.

Does anybody else think that the Bible is just full of metaphors ? Take "God made man in his own image" 

And this image for example.  

Again, Pantheism.  :p   


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#89

Posted 06 September 2015 - 07:37 PM Edited by .Smaher., 06 September 2015 - 07:38 PM.

 

Someone hasn't read the old testament. ^^^ 

 

Someone didn't understand the old testament.

 

Oh, you've done it now.

 

If I didn't understand it, I wouldn't have made that post.

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#90

Posted 06 September 2015 - 07:40 PM

Does anybody else think that the Bible is just full of metaphors ? Take "God made man in his own image" 

Take this image for example. 

Again, Pantheism.  :p   

ugh time to quote the ol-biblerino

 

".. the prophecies/the word stands even stronger for us[...] but you must first and foremost know that one cannot interpret any prophecy/word"

 

lazily translated from my own bible. 

 

There's more, give me a second. 

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