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The Migration Crisis

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sivispacem
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#961

Posted 15 November 2016 - 07:55 AM

The massive influx of mostly economic migrants from a backwards culture had no impact on society

Let's put aside the Daily Wail source and re-read what I actually said instead of descending into moronic straw men. You'll note I was referring to Islamic extremism, not general impact on society. But since you don't actually appear able to read, you've clearly missed this.
 

In countries such as Belgium and Germany they (converts) constitute 20 to 25 percent of the 'jihadi scene,' says Lorenzo Vidino, a senior researcher at Zurichs Center for Security Studies...

Actually, you've just proven my point. Muslim converts make up 25% of Jihadis, but converts only make up about 2-4% of Muslims in Western countries. Therefore, the statement that converts display a far higher propendity towards violent extremism is demonstrably true, not false.
 

You're delusional.

And you're an incompetent debater whose blind to nuance and entirely reliant on straw men. Stating that certain countries don't experience the same issues with violent extremism as others does not equate to stating that violent extremism is nonexistent.

It's becoming obvious you live in some kind of phantasy world

And yet again you've demonstrated your complete inability to debate properly. First you cite a country I don't even mention, then then you cite a report on fundamentalism in response to a commentary on extremism, apparently totally ignorance to the distinction between the two.

...pretty much repudiate the theory that only the poor and uneducated are vulnerable to radicalization.

Good thing I never actually asserted that violent extremism was solely confined to socially impoverished groups then isn't it? I don't know if it's a case of your reading comprehension being that bad, or whetger you're creating these farcical straw men because you can't actually respond to the points im putting forward, but it's kind of hilarious.

Sure, why not go further with your reasoning and openly blame the victim? 

I'm not sure how you could reasonably consider that an extension of my argument. Pretty silly if you ask me.
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dyspoid
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#962

Posted 10 December 2016 - 03:58 AM

While this is a slightly late entrance into a three week old argument, I have to say that I feel that both sides of this discourse hold some merit.

Anecdotal evidence provided to me via international students suggests that there is a very real and tangible effect of migration upon their home country's way of life. I remember speaking to a girl who suggested that travelling alone through the streets of Sweden was no longer an option. However, whether or not this it to be blamed on faith is a difficult question to answer - because all of the Islamic men and women I have met have been friendly and accommodating.

However, the state of affairs in Australia, where I live, is an interesting case. We have only really experienced two instances of Islamic terror. The first was perpetrated by a man who claimed to be religious, but was also involved in sexual assault and murder. The second was performed by a young man who did not appear to know much about the faith system he thought he was giving his life for. We have also had several drug dealing gang members defect to Syria to fight alongside ISIS.

In all of these instances, perpetrators violated core tenets of Islam, but still believed they were fighting under its guidance. So who do we blame? Christian pedophiles tar the Church, so is it fair to blame Islam for terror in its name?

sivispacem
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#963

Posted 10 December 2016 - 08:07 AM

The biggest issue with the comment above is the reliance on anecdote. Anecdotal evidence isn't objective; it's usually a reinforcement of someone's preconceived cognitive biases. Them not feeling safe on the streets and blaming Muslim migrants for that isn't a judgement of how safe the streets actually are.

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#964

Posted 13 December 2016 - 11:10 PM

I'm from Bulgaria and here we host a huge portion of the refugees who managed to escape in the EU. There was recently a situation in one of the shelters where they live. They have gone mad and started setting things on fire because they wanted to get out. The reason why they were kept from going out is because the place was kept under quarantine. That's because many of them had some serious diseases never seen in Europe for many years and they needed to be treated first (the shelter is on the territory of a settlement where actual people live, there are also children). Another thing is that they constantly complain about the conditions in which they are kept in and the money they get, and constantly do protests. The funny thing is that many Bulgarian people actually live that way.. Many people in Bulgaria live in poverty, it's a poor country, what the f**k did this refugees expect? Living in a palace? At least they are far away from the war and all those terrorists who want to behead them. Even funnier thing is that it recently turned out that many among these people are not even Syrian refugees but people from Iraq and Afghanistan.


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#965

Posted 14 December 2016 - 12:53 AM

That's because many of them had some serious diseases never seen in Europe for many years and they needed to be treated first (the shelter is on the territory of a settlement where actual people live, there are also children).

 

Source?

 

 

Another thing is that they constantly complain about the conditions in which they are kept in and the money they get, and constantly do protests. 

 

From what I've seen, conditions in most refugees camp IS appalling. So good on them for protesting. I don't think they complain for the money they get, though. Care to cite something for that?

 

 

Many people in Bulgaria live in poverty, it's a poor country, what the f**k did this refugees expect? Living in a palace?

 

I don't think any refugees expected to live in a palace. They did expect to be treated with dignity, which is missing in most cases.

 

 

Even funnier thing is that it recently turned out that many among these people are not even Syrian refugees but people from Iraq and Afghanistan.

 

How is that funny? Do you forget the state of affairs in Iraq and Afghanistan for the past 10 years? It's not as if they are prosperous and nice countries to live in just because they're not in your flavor-of-the-month war. This just demonstrates your ignorance on the subject altogether.

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stef_92
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#966

Posted 14 December 2016 - 09:42 AM

What I wanted to say that many Bulgarians live in such conditions and always try to make things better but the country doesn't do anything. Many Bulgarians live in poverty. On the other hand the refugees always complain and after all the government does what they want. If a country takes more care of the refugees than its own citizens, something is wrong. Everybody should be treated as equal, right?

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#967

Posted 14 December 2016 - 09:52 AM

What I wanted to say that many Bulgarians live in such conditions and always try to make things better but the country doesn't do anything. 

 

Live in similar conditions as the refugees? Somehow I doubt that.

 

 

Many Bulgarians live in poverty.

 

And that is not the refugees' fault. 

 

 

On the other hand the refugees always complain and after all the government does what they want. 

 

Care to source that? It's standard practice in D&D. You make a claim, you source it.

 

 

If a country takes more care of the refugees than its own citizens, something is wrong

 

Takes more care of them how? The stuff that I've seen paints a completely different story.

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stef_92
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#968

Posted 14 December 2016 - 01:37 PM Edited by stef_92, 14 December 2016 - 01:38 PM.

Ok, I'll give you a source for that particular case I was talking about:

They did this because like I said - they were temporary forbidden to leave the shelter because it was under quarantine and the all sick should be cured first. I could give you some articles to read but they are in Bulgarian. And this shelter is part of a town (or a village, I'm not sure) where citizens live and  of course they are now worried about their safety.


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#969

Posted 14 December 2016 - 02:39 PM

Please do share proper news articles. Bulgarian is ok, though if you could find something in English would be even better.

Videos are nice and all, but without knowing all the context, it's hard to tell. Specially if it comes from a source called OFFNews which really gives me the feeling of something akin to those NaturalNews/Breitbart things. Seeing the comments on the video as well, a LOT of hate speech.

 

And again, you did say that the refugees are better taken care of than Bulgarian citizens. Do you have some data on that?


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#970

Posted 15 December 2016 - 01:32 AM

I've found an article on the video that stef posted: http://www.businessi...ns-2016-11?IR=T

It appears local media falsely published a story saying that the camp had an outbreak of skin diseases (Source: http://www.bbc.com/n...urope-38090753)which then got picked up by officials who quarantined the camp. Naturally, this upset the inhabitants as they saw this as their rights being impinged on.

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Caysle
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#971

Posted 15 December 2016 - 04:24 PM

Just watched a video of Muslims destroying a Christmas tree. They can't be identified from the video but given the fact that they are Middle Eastern, I would expect anything from them

 

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Raavi
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#972

Posted 15 December 2016 - 04:46 PM

Just watched a video of Muslims destroying a Christmas tree. 

 

Meanwhile in the real world. 

 

"During the night it was destroyed the Christmas tree every year is placed in the Galleria Umberto. And that each year is systematically demolished. The news are Francesco Emilio Borrelli of the Greens and Gianni Simioli, speaker of Radiazza: "Tonight the usual vandals knocked down the Christmas tree of the gallery arranged a few days ago, repeating what has become a grim holiday tradition for years. A tradition that is repeated in cowardly fashion always on the same days, even during the 2015 celebrations took place the very same episode in those days. We propose the fence of the gallery, as there is in Rome at the Galleria Alberto Sordi ".

 

http://napoli.repubb...tale-153556046/

 

"In the past it happened many times that the tree was stolen only to be found in the neighboring Spanish Quarter where it is cut into pieces and used for the feast of St. Anthony Abbot, when there is the custom of lighting bonfires (the so-called stones of St. Anthony)."

 

http://www.butac.it/albero-natale-vandalizzato/ 

 

So to summarize: not angry brown-looking people coming after your Christmas trees as that video would have you believe, but a multi-year tradition to destroy the tree - numerous times by neighboring townsfolk to use in their Christian festivities. Amazing isn't it, fact-checking?

 

They can't be identified from the video but given the fact that they are Middle Eastern, I would expect anything from them

 

You can't identify anything from that blurry CCTV video, let alone distinguish ethnicity. What we can easily identify is your islamophobia. I hope you also do realize this exact type of rhetoric was used against Jewish people in the WWII-era in Nazi-propaganda. A period, we evidently learned shockingly little from.

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Eternal Donkey
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#973

Posted 15 December 2016 - 06:02 PM Edited by Freak_Show, 15 December 2016 - 06:26 PM.

They did it or not,aside from their ethnicity,we do know who they are and what they want.We all have sense of humanity,at top level,but the reality is much different than what you think.We live in the closest country to Syria and we always had a certain cultural and social line between us and them.Two nations were always in communication with each other for ages,no visas,no hostility.This is supposed to be a "richness" and both nations were happy of this.But,when that war has started in Syria,we have lost that line and now,no one is happy.Stress and unhappiness are so obvious in every part of social life.Have you ever got robbed while waiting for green light in traffic by someone who doesn't know your language,in your country?You can't blame a whole community for a single incident but what if it happens pretty much every day?They even committed more serious crimes,killed people.I helped some Syrian kids because I know what they lived there...But there is a serious rate of crime caused by migrants in this country.We can't ignore or underestimate it while living on the same land.No need to be Polyanna over this subject.And the other important part is,cultural erosion.They should have stayed in their country,without fighting for western world's desires...They could have been happier this way,like we all were before.Breaking the balance caused irrecoverable problems in Middle East.And now,because of some devilish idiots trying to govern our country,but can't,we are considered as "Syria's enemy".I fear,someday soon we won't be allowed to live here.We are already not allowed to talk,they imprison us.But we will surely fight for it,we follow Ataturk's line and the actual situation has started becoming unacceptable.

 

 

What we can easily identify is your islamophobia

 

 

And this part is too general,Mr.Raavi.Islamophobia is a new,plastic notion created few years ago,after that attack in Norway.We don't have or need a phobia against any religion.And telling the truth doesn't make us phobic...

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Caysle
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#974

Posted 15 December 2016 - 06:58 PM Edited by Caysle, 15 December 2016 - 07:06 PM.

 

Just watched a video of Muslims destroying a Christmas tree. 

 

Meanwhile in the real world. 

 

"During the night it was destroyed the Christmas tree every year is placed in the Galleria Umberto. And that each year is systematically demolished. The news are Francesco Emilio Borrelli of the Greens and Gianni Simioli, speaker of Radiazza: "Tonight the usual vandals knocked down the Christmas tree of the gallery arranged a few days ago, repeating what has become a grim holiday tradition for years. A tradition that is repeated in cowardly fashion always on the same days, even during the 2015 celebrations took place the very same episode in those days. We propose the fence of the gallery, as there is in Rome at the Galleria Alberto Sordi ".

 

http://napoli.repubb...tale-153556046/

 

"In the past it happened many times that the tree was stolen only to be found in the neighboring Spanish Quarter where it is cut into pieces and used for the feast of St. Anthony Abbot, when there is the custom of lighting bonfires (the so-called stones of St. Anthony)."

 

http://www.butac.it/albero-natale-vandalizzato/ 

 

So to summarize: not angry brown-looking people coming after your Christmas trees as that video would have you believe, but a multi-year tradition to destroy the tree - numerous times by neighboring townsfolk to use in their Christian festivities. Amazing isn't it, fact-checking?

 

They can't be identified from the video but given the fact that they are Middle Eastern, I would expect anything from them

 

You can't identify anything from that blurry CCTV video, let alone distinguish ethnicity. What we can easily identify is your islamophobia. I hope you also do realize this exact type of rhetoric was used against Jewish people in the WWII-era in Nazi-propaganda. A period, we evidently learned shockingly little from.

 

 

Still doesn't change the fact that crime rates in Europe increased after migrants. Don't want to know how Oktoberfest is doing, for instance? Despite the lower attendance because of deadly attacks perpetrated by migrants, number of sexual assaults didn't decrease at all.

 

http://www.independe...t-a7345766.html

 

Didn't you hear about the killing of Marie Ladenburger, daughter of a top EU official, being raped and murdered by an Afghan migrant?

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4001266/The-victim-Merkel-s-welcome-culture-Death-teenager-raped-murdered-Afghan-migrant-Germany-sparks-protests-latest-backlash-against-open-door-policy.html 

 

No attention about the 10-year old boy who got raped by an Iraqi man, whose conviction was overturned because the child may have consent for what happened?

 

http://www.independe...d-a7377491.html

 

 

Also, why am I labelled as a neo-Nazi or Islamophobic when I'm just pointing out the fact that stays in front of you?

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sivispacem
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#975

Posted 15 December 2016 - 07:20 PM

Still doesn't change the fact that crime rates in Europe increased after migrants.

Correlation != Causation, isolated examples != trends and wilful ignorance of the social and economic drivers behind criminality makes you look woefully uneducated.
 

Also, why am I labelled as a neo-Nazi or Islamophobic

Because blaming immigration or immigrants' ethnic or religious background for social problems which correlate far more strongly with poverty and social deprivation is patently ridiculous and ostensibly racist?
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Caysle
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#976

Posted 21 December 2016 - 05:36 PM

 

Still doesn't change the fact that crime rates in Europe increased after migrants.

Correlation != Causation, isolated examples != trends and wilful ignorance of the social and economic drivers behind criminality makes you look woefully uneducated.
 

Also, why am I labelled as a neo-Nazi or Islamophobic

Because blaming immigration or immigrants' ethnic or religious background for social problems which correlate far more strongly with poverty and social deprivation is patently ridiculous and ostensibly racist?

 

 

What's causing poverty and social deprivation for them in the first place, have you actually ever thought? Bedouin rules contradicts your civilization, diversity isn't always a strength. Stop being so politically correct


sivispacem
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#977

Posted 21 December 2016 - 06:36 PM

What's causing poverty and social deprivation for them in the first place

The usual litany of economic deprivation and social stigma that drives pretty much all criminality and antisocial sentiment, but with the added bonus of being placed in government-mandated ghettos in most of Europe and getting scapegoated for the same societal problems that they suffer the worst of. To be honest, if I was boarded up in sh*tty tower block shanty towns and denied decent jobs because that's where I was forced to live I'd be pretty f*cking angry too.

Bedouin rules contradicts your civilization

What on earth are you talking about?

diversity isn't always a strength.

Does tend to be, though. Pretty much every successful civilisation ever to have existed has been socially, ethnically and culturally diverse.

Stop being so politically correct

I think you're confusing "political" correctness with being correct.
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krypt0s
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#978

Posted 21 December 2016 - 07:02 PM

Bedouin rules contradicts your civilization

What on earth are you talking about?
Bedouin are tribesman who dwell in desert and/or villages or originate from nomadic tribes of the middle east. How their nomadic civilization contradicts yours is kinda difficult to understand.
Pretty interesting Bedouin saying though:

I and my brother are against my cousin, I and my cousin are against the stranger.


sivispacem
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#979

Posted 21 December 2016 - 07:18 PM

Citing tribal groups as "better" than Western societies in some objective way is kinda laughable anyway, especially when the notion concerned is cohesion. Tribal disputes are the leading cause of violence across pretty much the entirety of the world these societies inhabit. That was sort of my point.
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#980

Posted 29 December 2016 - 10:47 AM

Guys so I am a Westerner! But get this: my flatmate is a filthy Muslim! anyway my flatmate is one of those scum stealing our national identity and/or jobs and/or women but since I know you right wing types are against him but love Westerners like me, I'm wondering who I get in touch with about being reimbursed? y'know, for the cost of the rent? anyway since this isn't at all a power grabbing scheme and is totally about the welfare of Westerners I'm wondering which far-right nutter I get in touch with about compensation? 


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#981

Posted 30 December 2016 - 05:33 PM Edited by Seventh Star, 30 December 2016 - 05:36 PM.

There's no such thing as a "refugee/migration crisis" in Europe.

Actual refugee crisis can be seen in Pakistan, Lebanon, Jordan and poor countries in Africa who are hosting millions of refugees, far more than European countries have taken, and the mainstream world still doesn't credit them or send them humanitarian aid. Never treating it as a relevant issue whatsoever.

Apparently it's only a "crisis" when it happens on Europe's shores.

sivispacem
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#982

Posted 30 December 2016 - 08:57 PM

You're right inasmuch as the number of internally displaced people is much larger than the number of refugees or asylum seekers, but to claim there isn't a crisis is misleading. The crisis is mostly due to the distribution of migrants and the responses by various governments to them; nobody pretends it's worse in Europe than elsewhere either because it isn't.

The idea that these countries don't receive humanitarian aid is laughable, too. They do, though much of it is wasted to corruption.




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