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UK Politics & Current Affairs Discussion Thread

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Crokey
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#2041

Posted 02 February 2017 - 01:32 AM

It has to go to the House of Lords next for them to pass it, or as usual with these sorts of things it will get passed back to the Commons for them to make changes before it goes back again.  It's basically a game of Pong across Westminster, before they both agree and then it will go ahead.

 

How it goes in The Lords is anyone's guess as the people in the Lords are quite a mixed bunch or Pro and Anti Europe.  I'm personally hoping (aside from the whole thing being kiaboshed) for the Lords to pass it back asking for a change to the bill to put the terms of the deal back to the public vote, which is what the Lib Dems are asking for.

 

Whilst a great deal of MP's are pro European, they're having to do that whole "well my constituency voted for it, so I'll have to"... even though they don't want to, but politics gonna politics.  But they may try and at least make the deal the best they can to avoid the Brexit deal being bad (a Hard Brexit) and not in the National Interest.  However, because politics gonna politics, they (mainly the Tories) will unfairly be "threatened" by the party whips to, in the words of that f*cknugget of s spokesman for Mr Orange, Sean Spicer... "get with the programme", and have to do what the leaders are trying to do (which is a hard Brexit and is a bad idea).  Where as if they can get the amendment in to put it back to the public, it helps to swing it back towards a soft Brexit, as there is still an air of "voters remorse" within the UK, so this may help soften the blow.  And hopefully leave the door open for a future re-entry, once the sh*t has really hit that fan and people realise what they've done, and want back in.

 

There is a valid argument and it's very valid indeed, that whilst the "majority" of people voted for Brexit, the vote did not specify the terms of the exit, should it be voted in favour.  So setting out the terms for the deal and putting back to the public will ensure that that the people, who this will affect the most, are fully informed and are the ones to vote of the deal in an impartial vote, as opposed to some sort of forced vote by MP's and their party leaders.

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#2042

Posted 03 February 2017 - 10:50 AM Edited by Finite, 03 February 2017 - 11:22 AM.

FDP7Ugth.jpg

So they admit in the White Paper that the actual "loss of sovereignty" was a blatant lie. No wonder they withheld this until after the vote.

How is the UK going to complete the complex task of Brexit in two years, when it cannot produce a half-decent White Paper after six months?

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#2043

Posted 03 February 2017 - 11:48 AM

Anyone vaguely schooled on constitutional politics in the United Kingdom would have been aware that the EU has no effective impact on national sovereignty, but it's quite entertaining to see this being expressly admitted despite assertions to the inverse being a central rallying cry of the "leave" movement.

Sadly, most people in this country lack even the most rudimentary understanding of our political system.
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#2044

Posted 03 February 2017 - 12:03 PM Edited by Finite, 03 February 2017 - 12:05 PM.

Can we blame them? Spouting so called alternative facts will always attract more attention than having a civil discussion about anything. Remember this Sivis?

ntMMXs6h.jpg

If people genuinely base their political opinions on this sort of campaigning then why not plaster total bullsh*t on the side of a bus and ride it around London?

It literally cannot negatively effect you as apparently accountability is something you can simply shrug off six hours after one of the largest political decisions in history.

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#2045

Posted 03 February 2017 - 12:24 PM

I don't mean to suggest it's a new phenomenon, but it's definitely something I've noted as growing over the last decade or so. People simply accept what they hear without questioning it, only pay attention to information which correlates with their preconceived biases and place infallible trust in completely worthless sources of information whilst pouring scorn on any attempt at objective analysis. It's Kruger-Dunning on a societal scale and frankly I find it terrifying.

As an aside, I voted against AV, but only because it's a terribly compromised system. I'm a huge proponent of Single Transferable Vote.
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#2046

Posted 03 February 2017 - 01:02 PM

STV is obviously superior though this was if memory serves a compromise on the Lib-Dems part to try and get it through, a poor one though it ultimately turned out to be.

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#2047

Posted 03 February 2017 - 02:38 PM

Spoiler


How is the UK going to complete the complex task of Brexit in two years, when it cannot produce a half-decent White Paper after six months?

 

They're not....

 

The Lords will now get their opportunity, alongside the parliamentary committees to really tear into this white paper and force through some major amendments that could well scupper Eeyore getting anything like she wants out of her '12 point plan'.

 

Meanwhile, even today, the remaining 27 EU nations are discussing their standing regarding Brexit and they seem to be unifying behind the 'a deal will be worse than remaining' stand.  This seems to be the correct way to go and will help stall Eeyore longer, making her more desperate for a deal as early 2019 approaches.

 

I still think all the EU has to do is wait and keep offering extensions to the Article 50 timescale.  Britain might struggle to carry on with leaving come 2020 if the Commons carries on looking as fractured as it is now.  It is already struggling to fill the Brexit Department with competent staff and the 2020 election could well result in such a 'hung parliament scenario', the Tories wouldn't have any choice but to consider their position regarding Brexit.

 

In the long run I think we will leave the EU, but I doubt it'll be anything like the 'Hard Brexit', Eeyore wants.


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#2048

Posted 09 February 2017 - 10:27 AM Edited by Argonaut, 09 February 2017 - 10:29 AM.

Meanwhile, whilst Surrey Council is having their social care crisis bought off in the short term, Mr Corbyn is being asked the important questions.


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#2049

Posted 09 February 2017 - 10:57 AM

Pretty ironic given that he cited some mysterious text messages about the Surrey Council fiasco as evidence of some kind of sweetheart deal...yet nobody, including himself, has actually produced any evidence of their having existed despite being pressed for it.

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#2050

Posted 09 February 2017 - 11:31 AM Edited by Argonaut, 09 February 2017 - 11:33 AM.

Pretty ironic given that he cited some mysterious text messages about the Surrey Council fiasco as evidence of some kind of sweetheart deal...yet nobody, including himself, has actually produced any evidence of their having existed despite being pressed for it.


Even in the face of the unexpected decision to call the referendum off, the multiple relevant ministers (to council funding) in the government called 'Nick' and the rather grim face of Sajid Javid in the Commons yesterday (all rather weak sauce I know), this is still true. Innocent until proven guilty, but I just would not be surprised if something of this nature actually happened- otherwise, Surrey better start informing all other local authorities on how to solve the social care issue so quickly when I've seen it described as being "beyond crisis point".


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#2051

Posted 09 February 2017 - 12:42 PM

It's less the question of whether or not the allegations are true and more the hypocrisy which grates. Fine for him to make unverified allegations against others, but a travesty when it's done to him by the media.

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#2052

Posted 25 February 2017 - 12:13 AM

Interesting. Now UK officials are questioning Kremlin's involvement in Brexit vote: http://www.businessi...e-brexit-2017-2

 

Grasping at straws or a legitimate concern?

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#2053

Posted 25 February 2017 - 10:50 AM

Grasping at straws. Unless they actually succeeded in rigging the thing, which they didn't, then there's no case. Russia undoubtedly tried to influence Brexit, just as the U.S. and countless other countries did. Obama flew in and other heads of state made lots of statements, many of which were complete lies, all of which was a direct attempt to influence the result. That doesn't in any way invalidate the result. It's just another attempt from Remain to delegitimise and weaken Brexit in order to try overturn it, or at least get a more favourable deal from their perspective. This is not a particularly effective point though and in fact it's so weak it probably does their case more harm than good.


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#2054

Posted 25 February 2017 - 12:00 PM

Both.

Grasping at straws not because it's not the kind of thing Russia would do, or because I don't think it's taken place to some degree or another, but merely due to the complete lack of any publicly available evidence to support it. That's not a judgement on whether he's wrong or right, just on the lack of any actual evidence currently.

That said I do think it's something that warrants investigation and analysis. We know that representatives of the Russian government's intelligence services have targeting media organisations in other European countries because of certain geopolitical issues, like TV5Monde over France's involvement in providing materiel an air support to Syrian anti-Assad rebels.

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#2055

Posted 05 March 2017 - 08:23 PM Edited by Finite, 05 March 2017 - 08:27 PM.

https://inews.co.uk/...rnment-funding/

Most of the constituencies in Cornwall voted for Tory MPs as well, now they have voted (by a small majority, granted) to leave the EU.

I wonder if their loyalty to the Tories and the right wing Eurosceptics Tories will be rewarded.

E: For some context I voted remain and I want leave voters to be protected from their bad decisions. For the most part they did not understand the ramifications of what they voted for (I think this was also true of remain, but as nothing would have changed it didn't matter as much).

I think a lot of people now understand that they have harmed our country and yet will not see any of the benefits they have been lead to expect. We should not hate these people, they are credulous not evil.

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#2056

Posted 05 March 2017 - 08:37 PM

Indeed, a lot of these people were misled by their leaders. And not just by the Leave campaign, the Remain campaign is definitely guilty of patronising people.

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#2057

Posted 07 March 2017 - 01:55 PM Edited by Finite, 07 March 2017 - 02:07 PM.

http://www.independe...r-a7614526.html

Surely leaving without securing a deal would be the biggest f*ck up since Chamberlain peace conference in Munich in 1938.

I wonder if May will have enough honor and dignity to resign...


E:Hopefully she'll have honour, not honor. This isn't the colony, honor does you no good over here.

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#2058

Posted 07 March 2017 - 02:05 PM

Well... if she did, she would probably call for a snap election.

The reality of leaving the EU is slowly setting in. It was not like in the olden days, where nations were far more separate, and it was far easier to declare 'independence'.

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#2059

Posted 07 March 2017 - 02:13 PM

After May and Spreadsheet Phil let slip the other month that if the nasty, howible, EU meanies didn't give us everything we demand they'd go full on tax haven with the UK, I suspect that a good deal with the negotiations is actually Plan B.

Plan A is having this golden opportunity to asset strip the state and flog it off by the pound, well...... even more than they are now.

The fact that many people may be becoming aware of this, and I recall a similar poll a couple of months ago which stated that an economic impact to peoples personal finances was seen as a very negative brexit impact, she and the extreme free market Tories are sh*t scared of allowing any kind of exit vote in the house.

The blackmail doesn't work so well when 500 MPs abstain, and if the vote is a binary accept the (sh*te) deal or WTO the only way they'd be able to protest is to delegitimise the vote - and the subsequent mandate it receives.

That's No Confidence territory.

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#2060

Posted 08 March 2017 - 01:31 PM Edited by Finite, 08 March 2017 - 01:32 PM.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-39202245

What was that? Dissent? Fire him! I don't want to hear any "advice" from someone who's been in politics for 50 years, not if they're saying that Brexit will somehow be absolutely f*cking disastrous for the UK.

Lord Heseltine told the BBC the prime minister was "exercising her perfectly legitimate right to get rid of opposition in any way she finds appropriate".
"Whether it's a wise thing to do is a matter for her not for me," he said

Ouch.

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#2061

Posted 08 March 2017 - 08:08 PM

So May is basically doing what Maggie couldn't do and that's see off Heseltine.

 

Basically there was nothing special in the Budget, it's all treading water stuff until the fan has had the proverbial flung right at it when the whole Brexit fiasco kicks in.

 

Although putting up the National Insurance payments for Self Employed people and calling "fair", when it's not really fair when the whole tax system is fubar, as big corporations are still exploiting loopholes and paying next to nowt in tax/National Insurance contributions.

 

Off Topic but to lighten the mood.  That May laugh was quick to be edited

 

Spoiler

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#2062

Posted 10 March 2017 - 12:53 PM

http://www.independe...y-a7621731.html

Up to 20 by-elections could be fun...

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#2063

Posted 15 March 2017 - 11:23 AM Edited by Finite, 15 March 2017 - 11:23 AM.

http://www.independe...t-a7629136.html

As well they should, that should be the default response for any time Theresa May opens her mouth, rather than giving any actual consideration to anything she says, unfortunately someone ruined the joke by actually giving her a modicum of power at some point.

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#2064

Posted 15 March 2017 - 02:34 PM Edited by Argonaut, 15 March 2017 - 02:39 PM.

No words needed for this one, just utterly infuriating:

 

PMQs verdict: Corbyn fails dismally to exploit U-turn on national insurance

 

 

Edit: The ride never ends.

 

C69ZRShWcAEsj2j.jpg


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#2065

Posted 23 March 2017 - 04:41 PM Edited by GTA_stu, 23 March 2017 - 04:43 PM.

Wasnt sure where to put this, but put it in here.

 

I don't think Islam in particular has a problem with extremism. All religions do. Some are more violent about it than others. Christian extremism is bringing death to women in America by attempting to refuse abortions and defunding planned parenthood, which actually provides a lot of services to care for the health of poor women. Christian extremism is bringing death to homosexuals who are attacked by christian extremists for being an aberration in the eyes of the lord. The end result is the same as Islam extremists. But for those kinds of extremism you don't care about, right?

 

And I dispute your assertion that "Islam produces such great quantities". As a matter of fact, less than 2% of terrorist attacks in recent times in Europe was caused by religious extremists. If Islam was indeed mass producing these terrorists, then clearly the number of religious-motivated attacks would far outweigh everything else. But reality doesn't represent that.

 

But as to why there would be more Muslim terrorists than any other type, make total destroy already explained it. As did I, and others, in the respective D&D threads. The past couple of decades has seen an increase in instability in the middle east, largely due to the influence of Russia and America in trying to get the riches, leading them to treat the population as collateral, as you put it, and just bomb whatever they want. This breeds hatred, which breeds extremism, which breeds terrorism. f*ck, the border division after WW1 and 2 in the middle east was completely fueled by the interests of French, American, British, Russian multinationals. So they never cared for those people. I don't blame Jihad Mustapha from bombing some place after seeing his entire family destroyed by airstrikes in the name of "Freedom". As long as your country, and others, keep doing what they do, these attacks will continue to happen.

 

The IRA was still conducting Terrorist attacks, were they not? They still wanted their Irish freedom, did they not? The existence of current borders was an affront

 

Simply being opposed abortion is not an "extremist" position. Do you even know what the word bloody means? And how often are Christians killing gays then? Btw the following countries have the death penalty for homosexual acts: Sudan, Iran, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Mauritania, Afghanistan, Qatar, Iraq, Somalia, Syria, Nigeria. Death for homosexuality is a mainstream position in Islam. Homosexuality certainly isn't welcomed in Christianity, but it's a tiny fringe minority who believe you should be killed for it.

 

Where are the statistics that show less than 2% of recent terrorist attacks in Europe have been committed by religious extremists?

 

Large parts of the world have been destabilised and over the past decades by coups and invasions instigated, perpetrated, or influenced by Russia and the West. Central American and South American countries, East Asia, Africa, the Middle East, even some in Europe. Borders were drawn without regards for ethnic and religious divisions, all over the world. The Muslim world isn't special in that regard, so that is a poor excuse. 

 

The foundations of Islam are different to other religions. It was founded and initially spread through conquest by a bloody warlord who persecuted many different groups. This guy is seen as perfect by it's followers. Christianity was founded by a guy who preached forgiveness and helped the less fortunate, it was initially spread slowly by word of mouth. The Bible and the Quran are both pretty unsuitable for modern times, but only 1 of them claims to be the perfect unalterable word of God. 1 is essentially a bunch of stories, the other gives details on jurisprudence and says it must be strictly obeyed.

 

Islam is unique compared to other major religions, in how it was founded, in how it is practiced, in the way it negatively effects the places and people it has widespread influence over. Why on Earth are you so desperate to defend it? It's position on women, minorities, civil liberties etc are all way worse than Trump for example, yet you attack Trump and defend Islam. 


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#2066

Posted 23 March 2017 - 08:12 PM Edited by Eutyphro, 23 March 2017 - 10:05 PM.

Where are the statistics that show less than 2% of recent terrorist attacks in Europe have been committed by religious extremists?

Some very old Interpol stats showed that, but I think these days it is not true anymore. Though I think it is probably still true that left wing and right wing terror dwarf Islam in number of attacks, Interpol also counts much lesser crimes of assault or property damage as terror probably. There's no doubt that terror attacks that involve killings, especially large scale ones, are often Islamic in recent years.
 

Islam is unique compared to other major religions

All religions are different, and it isn't meaningful to completely equate any of them. The 'but look at Christianity' argument is just stupid and silly. I'm not aware of any current Christian terror movements. It's just a tu quoque fallacy anyway. Christians are due to the situation in the Middle-East ptobably among the most harshly persecuted religious groups at the moment. And the 'look at the political context and not just at religious doctrine' argument is reasonable, but the issue with Islamic terror can't be reduced to either just political context or doctrine. They both matter. And using the 'but the crusades' argument (which was hundreds of years ago) every time someone criticizes the religious doctrine and cultural beliefs popular all over the Middle East, that do relate to terror, is just ridiculous.

And this: http://www.independe...s-a7645626.html

is the clearest example of political correctness you could find.

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#2067

Posted 23 March 2017 - 10:34 PM

 

 

 

Large parts of the world have been destabilised and over the past decades by coups and invasions instigated, perpetrated, or influenced by Russia and the West. Central American and South American countries, East Asia, Africa, the Middle East, even some in Europe. Borders were drawn without regards for ethnic and religious divisions, all over the world. The Muslim world isn't special in that regard, so that is a poor excuse. 

 

 

 

Are you trying to suggest foreign meddling and destabilization hasn't effected all those regions negatively, in one way or another?


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#2068

Posted 23 March 2017 - 10:53 PM

I know the question isn't aimed at me, but I'm going to answer it anyway: of course it has. But it is an interplay between culture (which involves religion) and geopolitics. Not every culture is going to have the same response to foreign occupation and intervention. Suicide bombing for instance, is quite obviously a cultural, and specifically Islamic issue, related to the idea of 'martyrdom'. Culture matters.


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#2069

Posted 24 March 2017 - 04:13 AM

Simply being opposed abortion is not an "extremist" position. Do you even know what the word bloody means? And how often are Christians killing gays then? Btw the following countries have the death penalty for homosexual acts: Sudan, Iran, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Mauritania, Afghanistan, Qatar, Iraq, Somalia, Syria, Nigeria. Death for homosexuality is a mainstream position in Islam. Homosexuality certainly isn't welcomed in Christianity, but it's a tiny fringe minority who believe you should be killed for it.

 

It is extremist when it leads to the needless death of women and the abandonment of children. What's more extreme than death? I know what the word bloody means. 

How often Christians are killing gays? The number is irrelevant. What matters is that people are being killed in the name of a Christian ideology that says homosexuals are a sin and need to be exterminated. And this is happening free countries. As such, it is a poisonous ideology, just as much as Islam. I don't know what you're trying to get at with the rest of your sentence. I never said that Islam was pure and welcomed homosexuals. My point is that Christianity is just as guilty of it, and other deaths, but you and others like you like to turn a blind eye to it because, well, they are white. If Islam is a poisonous religions that gives rise to extremism, then so is Christianity.

 

 

Where are the statistics that show less than 2% of recent terrorist attacks in Europe have been committed by religious extremists?

 

Shoot, I was sure I had linked to it on my post. Guess not. Here you go. And here's more reasons why Islam is not a terrorist religion

 

 

Large parts of the world have been destabilised and over the past decades by coups and invasions instigated, perpetrated, or influenced by Russia and the West. Central American and South American countries, East Asia, Africa, the Middle East, even some in Europe. Borders were drawn without regards for ethnic and religious divisions, all over the world. The Muslim world isn't special in that regard, so that is a poor excuse. 

 

Right. And look how well that turned out for everyone? Look at the paradise that Central and South America and East Asia and Africa and the Middle East are. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here? 

It isn't an excuse. It's a fact. You put groups of people who hate each other under the same banner, and you will have a bad time. And then you go on and continue to bomb the sh*t out of those countries to "get them to behave", and you will have a bad time. I mean, I don't know how you can ignore this or write it off as "poor excuse".

 

Mind you, the Middle East != the Muslim World. There's a billion and a half of them. In the countries where the historical borders and limits have been respected, or that at least haven't been meddled with by western powers and Russia, the issue is far, far, far smaller. Gee I see a connection.

 

 

The foundations of Islam are different to other religions. It was founded and initially spread through conquest by a bloody warlord who persecuted many different groups. This guy is seen as perfect by it's followers. Christianity was founded by a guy who preached forgiveness and helped the less fortunate, it was initially spread slowly by word of mouth. The Bible and the Quran are both pretty unsuitable for modern times, but only 1 of them claims to be the perfect unalterable word of God. 1 is essentially a bunch of stories, the other gives details on jurisprudence and says it must be strictly obeyed.

 

Sounds like Christianity to me. You clearly do not know anything about Christianity and its spread. Read the history in Brazil, about the Jesuits, and about the crimes they committed against the indigenous population in order to "save" them. Christian has just as much blood on its hands, if not more, than Islam.

Oh and Jesus is also seen as perfect by it's followers. Christianity wasn't founded by Christ for god's sake. He, if he existedm didn't intend to start a religion. In fact, some of the books of the bible were written centuries apart, yet are the word of god.

And holy f*cking sh*t are you kidding me? I take extreme offense to this notion:

 

 

 

The Bible and the Quran are both pretty unsuitable for modern times, but only 1 of them claims to be the perfect unalterable word of God. 1 is essentially a bunch of stories, the other gives details on jurisprudence and says it must be strictly obeyed.

 

No, sir. BOTH of them claim to be the perfect unalterable word of god. That's why we end up with ridiculous laws regulating women's body and abortion. Because the bible is the word of god. I cannot take anything else you say on religion seriously.

 

 

Islam is unique compared to other major religions, in how it was founded, in how it is practiced, in the way it negatively effects the places and people it has widespread influence over. Why on Earth are you so desperate to defend it? It's position on women, minorities, civil liberties etc are all way worse than Trump for example, yet you attack Trump and defend Islam. 

 

Ah. I didn't know all the other religions except for Islam were similar in how they were practiced, founded, and how it affects the places and people it has widespread influence all over. Are you kidding me? I'm not so desperate to defend it. All I want is equal standards. I hate all religions equally, and I view them as a cancer on the world. But I'm not a hypocrite, like you, who extolls the virtues of Christianity while casting Islam in a bad light. In the history of the world, Christianity has been responsible for far more evil than Islam. Why are you so desperate to distance it from Islam?


acmilano
  • acmilano

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#2070

Posted 24 March 2017 - 06:42 AM

My condolences to to people who were killed in London. Glad that my friend is okay and nothing happened to herand her family,even thou she lives some 20 minutes from Westminster. It is a dangerous times we live now.





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