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Military Crisis in Ukraine

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sivispacem
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#61

Posted 24 February 2014 - 09:58 PM

Because he is the personification of communism. Namely Red (Communist) Army overthrew the fascist regime.

Fascism post-dates Lenin by a good 5-10 years as a political theory. Therefore, there's no way that the Red army could have overthrown a Fascist regime, because Fascism didn't exist at that point.

Glaring errors like this make it really hard to take anything else you say seriously.

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#62

Posted 24 February 2014 - 11:39 PM

 

Because he is the personification of communism. Namely Red (Communist) Army overthrew the fascist regime.

Fascism post-dates Lenin by a good 5-10 years as a political theory. Therefore, there's no way that the Red army could have overthrown a Fascist regime, because Fascism didn't exist at that point.

 

He is obviously referring to the fact that the Red Army fought Nazi Germany in the Second World War and were decisive in victory of the Allies in Europe. There is no denying this. He is not saying that Lenin fought fascism directly, he is merely stating that his ideology and the state that he helped found, fought fascism in the war.

 

Now I have my problems with Lenin and Stalin too, but what he's saying is not wrong.

 

And to the person saying that the Right Sector is not fascist. They literally wear fascist imagery:

 

5pHagsg.jpg

 

The armband they're wearing? That's the wolfsangel rune. A common Nazi symbol.

 

Here they are burning a red communist flag while brandishing flags bearing the Celtic Cross, a symbol of White Supremecy:

 

ihsZio2.jpg

 

And here is another one, with a shield painted with the Celtic Cross and the numbers 14 88. In Nazi circles the number 14 refers to the "14 words" spoken by David Lane: "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for White Children" and 88 stands for "Heil Hitler" (H being the 8th letter of the alphabet):

 

Rm4yrSO.jpg

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#63

Posted 25 February 2014 - 12:01 AM Edited by flame1251, 25 February 2014 - 12:12 AM.

Fascism post-dates Lenin by a good 5-10 years as a political theory. Therefore, there's no way that the Red army could have overthrown a Fascist regime, because Fascism didn't exist at that point.

Glaring errors like this make it really hard to take anything else you say seriously.

We are all obliged Red Army. The Workers' and Peasants' Red Army. I advise you to read up on the Red Army and how she fought with the Nazis. Glaring error to say that the Red Army was not at the time of the Second World War in which it mainly and overcame fascism.

I try to explain why the Right Sector and Svoboda so irritated Lenin monuments. And not only Lenin. In Lviv (Western Ukraine) was demolished and a monument to heroes of the Great Patriotic War. Svoboda also stands for the resuscitation of the UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army). UPA - are Nazis and Hitler henchmen in Second Word War time. People who are not living in Ukraine, it is difficult to understand all these "local" things.

And I apologize if my English does not allow you to understand me.
 

He is obviously referring to the fact that the Red Army fought Nazi Germany in the Second World War and were decisive in victory of the Allies in Europe. There is no denying this. He is not saying that Lenin fought fascism directly, he is merely stating that his ideology and the state that he helped found, fought fascism in the war.

Yes.

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#64

Posted 25 February 2014 - 12:35 AM Edited by Doc Rikowski, 25 February 2014 - 12:36 AM.

So after all there were snipers also among the "peaceful freedom fighters"... ;)

 

140220093807-16-ukraine-0220-horizontal-

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#65

Posted 25 February 2014 - 12:39 AM

At least the opposition snipers are aiming at Police and Army snipers, instead of indiscriminately killing unarmed civilians.


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#66

Posted 25 February 2014 - 12:51 AM

At least the opposition snipers are aiming at Police and Army snipers, instead of indiscriminately killing unarmed civilians.

You don't know that and I don't know that. We weren't there.

You can only suppose things from your limited virtual point of view.

Just as I can suppose that those snipers could be foreigners sent in there to spread chaos as part of a black op aimed at destabilising Ukraine in order to shift it under Western influence.

All suppositions, mine and yours.

The only fact is that the "peaceful freedom fighters" were armed just like the Ukrainian Police.

Now, go in any Western country square with a sniper rifle and protest against the government then tell me what happens. :D


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#67

Posted 25 February 2014 - 01:42 AM

At least the opposition snipers are aiming at Police and Army snipers, instead of indiscriminately killing unarmed civilians.

You don't know that and I don't know that. We weren't there.

First of all, I've mentioned the snipers on revolutionary side in the very first post I wrote. Second, yeah, we weren't there, but I was watching live footage from several different locations. Third, there are a number of snipers among police force casualties. So we know where the snipers on revolution side where firing. Finally, police were ordered to arm themselves by that point. Whatever else you want to say, we know that there were no unarmed people on the police side. Among protesters, there are medics and reporters, clearly identified as such, wounded or killed by sniper fire.

Oh, and did you realize that on the pictures you've posted, protesters are holding air rifles, right? First and last picture have the same type of rifle. Note the lack of bolt lever on either side. The caliber also suggests that it's a sports .22 at the most. So yeah, I can completely believe that you, a person incapable of telling a real rifle from an air one, can't judge about things that are going on in another country based on media you have access to. Some of us know better.

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#68

Posted 25 February 2014 - 08:36 AM

Fascism post-dates Lenin by a good 5-10 years as a political theory. Therefore, there's no way that the Red army could have overthrown a Fascist regime, because Fascism didn't exist at that point.

Glaring errors like this make it really hard to take anything else you say seriously.

We are all obliged Red Army. The Workers' and Peasants' Red Army. I advise you to read up on the Red Army and how she fought with the Nazis. Glaring error to say that the Red Army was not at the time of the Second World War in which it mainly and overcame fascism.
Well then it's simply a case of false equivalence, because the Red Army did not single-handedly defeat Nazi Germany as you imply.

Also, I'm not so sure about your assertion that Ukraine should be grateful for the "heroic" actions of the Kremlin and red army during the Second World War. If Stalin hadn't been a megalomaniac who purged all of his officers skilled in manoeuvre warfare, and hadn't attempted a divide-and-conquer unholy alliance with Hitler, then 80% of the Ukraine wouldn't have been entirely annihilated by the German invasion and they might have had something to really thank them for.

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#69

Posted 25 February 2014 - 09:03 AM Edited by Doc Rikowski, 25 February 2014 - 09:04 AM.

 

 

At least the opposition snipers are aiming at Police and Army snipers, instead of indiscriminately killing unarmed civilians.

You don't know that and I don't know that. We weren't there.

 

First of all, I've mentioned the snipers on revolutionary side in the very first post I wrote. Second, yeah, we weren't there, but I was watching live footage from several different locations. Third, there are a number of snipers among police force casualties. So we know where the snipers on revolution side where firing. Finally, police were ordered to arm themselves by that point. Whatever else you want to say, we know that there were no unarmed people on the police side. Among protesters, there are medics and reporters, clearly identified as such, wounded or killed by sniper fire.

Oh, and did you realize that on the pictures you've posted, protesters are holding air rifles, right? First and last picture have the same type of rifle. Note the lack of bolt lever on either side. The caliber also suggests that it's a sports .22 at the most. So yeah, I can completely believe that you, a person incapable of telling a real rifle from an air one, can't judge about things that are going on in another country based on media you have access to. Some of us know better.

 

Still, you weren't there so you don't know. What you see you can interpret it but the "who's who" in such chaos it's not something you can find out by simply looking at live footage.

 

Did I say anything about the nature of the rifles? No.

I was in the army so I can recognise the type of weapon. That doesn't change my point: the fact that those are not "peaceful" protesters as usually depicted by our media.

Were they in their right to defend themselves? That's an all different subject.

Were they a bunch of nazi? Mostly yes.

Is the West lead by a bunch of conscious hypocritical leaders? Yes cause if we ever dared to protest in our countries against anything in such violent way we would be wiped out in 2 days in a very violent manner.

 

Let's not forget Genoa 2000 when really peaceful and unarmed protesters, including women, old and teenage people, were brutally beaten up for 3 days by the Italian Police while nobody in the West was protesting for the treatment peaceful citizens received for protesting against the G8 meeting.

And that's just an example among hundreds...


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#70

Posted 25 February 2014 - 09:28 AM

Is the West lead by a bunch of conscious hypocritical leaders? Yes cause if we ever dared to protest in our countries against anything in such violent way we would be wiped out in 2 days in a very violent manner.

I'm not so sure about this. It wasn't that long ago in the UK we had around 8-10 thousand rioters on the streets of London and other major cities, burning buildings, running people over and generally acting in a way not dissimilar to the protesters in the Ukraine. We didn't have snipers on the rooftops taking pot-shots at people trying to loot Foot Locker.

Similarly I'm struggling to think of a single event in the last 20 or so years where the military or police of a Western or EU nation used snipers to fire on protesters. I'm struggling to think of a single event in recent memory where any police or military deployment in a Western country resulted in the deaths of one quarter the 88 killed by marksmen in the Ukrainian protests. Care to give an example?

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#71

Posted 25 February 2014 - 09:43 AM Edited by Nale Dixon, 25 February 2014 - 09:44 AM.

 

Is the West lead by a bunch of conscious hypocritical leaders? Yes cause if we ever dared to protest in our countries against anything in such violent way we would be wiped out in 2 days in a very violent manner.

I'm not so sure about this. It wasn't that long ago in the UK we had around 8-10 thousand rioters on the streets of London and other major cities, burning buildings, running people over and generally acting in a way not dissimilar to the protesters in the Ukraine. We didn't have snipers on the rooftops taking pot-shots at people trying to loot Foot Locker.

Similarly I'm struggling to think of a single event in the last 20 or so years where the military or police of a Western or EU nation used snipers to fire on protesters. I'm struggling to think of a single event in recent memory where any police or military deployment in a Western country resulted in the deaths of one quarter the 88 killed by marksmen in the Ukrainian protests. Care to give an example?

 

I don't care too much for what this guy is saying, but on the mention of the UK riots, it is worth pointing out that although those rioters weren't subject to a firing squad, they certainly were demonised and delegitimised in the press and by the Prime Minister no less. Now I'm under no illusion that everyone who takes part in mass countrywide riots are legitimately angry about whatever the situation is, but a better functioning democracy would have A: Acknowledged the grievances that caused such a violent protest and B: Not had the situation happen in the first place. The response certainly was not even close to as horrid as what the Ukrainian government is doing, but it does show a certain level of hypocrisy. In fact it showed pure hypocrisy at the time, when William Hague was saying that the Middle Eastern countries must account for the grievances of their protesters.

 

As for the second part, it's again not as severe as live ammunition and there were no actual deaths, but the skull cracking of the protesters during the Miner's Strikes in the 80s was pretty bad.

 

I know the Ukraine makes these examples look like a civillised disagreement, but it certainly makes the crying from the UK government at least look a bit shallow. Also it's a Tuesday morning and I have nothing to do, so hey.

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#72

Posted 25 February 2014 - 09:54 AM Edited by flame1251, 25 February 2014 - 09:55 AM.

 

 

Fascism post-dates Lenin by a good 5-10 years as a political theory. Therefore, there's no way that the Red army could have overthrown a Fascist regime, because Fascism didn't exist at that point.

Glaring errors like this make it really hard to take anything else you say seriously.

We are all obliged Red Army. The Workers' and Peasants' Red Army. I advise you to read up on the Red Army and how she fought with the Nazis. Glaring error to say that the Red Army was not at the time of the Second World War in which it mainly and overcame fascism.
Well then it's simply a case of false equivalence, because the Red Army did not single-handedly defeat Nazi Germany as you imply.

Also, I'm not so sure about your assertion that Ukraine should be grateful for the "heroic" actions of the Kremlin and red army during the Second World War. If Stalin hadn't been a megalomaniac who purged all of his officers skilled in manoeuvre warfare, and hadn't attempted a divide-and-conquer unholy alliance with Hitler, then 80% of the Ukraine wouldn't have been entirely annihilated by the German invasion and they might have had something to really thank them for.

 

You are wrong, but I do not judge you. I am citizen of Ukraine and I can say that even many Ukrainians do not know their history so make a remark to British  I can not. You look through the prism of its propaganda, which clearly says that "Stalin was bad", "Lenin was bad", "USSR was bad", but does not explain many things. Lenin geographically allocated Ukraine on the territory of the Soviet Union. To it wes attached Kharkov. Crimea was annexed by Soviets (previously this is the province of the Russian Empire). Lenin raised the level of the country, because before his arrival in Ukraine were gentlemen (upper class) and were peasants (countrymen), who worked all day in the field for a penny. For the murder of a peasant, that owned to him as a slave, barin could pay a measly money. Lenin created equality among people of all classes (of course, the bourgeoisie was unhappy).

Contribution of allies (Britain and the United States) to victory on fascism was minimal. Also, Britain, and the United States were almost untouched by the Nazis during the invasion. Soviet Union at the same time utterly destroyed. On-site cities were ruins. "Bad Stalin" was able to rebuild their country from the ruins and people helped him in this. But I will not talk about it more, because you do not want to listen.
 


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#73

Posted 25 February 2014 - 10:05 AM

 

 

 

Fascism post-dates Lenin by a good 5-10 years as a political theory. Therefore, there's no way that the Red army could have overthrown a Fascist regime, because Fascism didn't exist at that point.

Glaring errors like this make it really hard to take anything else you say seriously.

We are all obliged Red Army. The Workers' and Peasants' Red Army. I advise you to read up on the Red Army and how she fought with the Nazis. Glaring error to say that the Red Army was not at the time of the Second World War in which it mainly and overcame fascism.
Well then it's simply a case of false equivalence, because the Red Army did not single-handedly defeat Nazi Germany as you imply.

Also, I'm not so sure about your assertion that Ukraine should be grateful for the "heroic" actions of the Kremlin and red army during the Second World War. If Stalin hadn't been a megalomaniac who purged all of his officers skilled in manoeuvre warfare, and hadn't attempted a divide-and-conquer unholy alliance with Hitler, then 80% of the Ukraine wouldn't have been entirely annihilated by the German invasion and they might have had something to really thank them for.

 

You are wrong, but I do not judge you. I am citizen of Ukraine and I can say that even many Ukrainians do not know their history so make a remark to British  I can not. You look through the prism of its propaganda, which clearly says that "Stalin was bad", "Lenin was bad", "USSR was bad", but does not explain many things. Lenin geographically allocated Ukraine on the territory of the Soviet Union. To it wes attached Kharkov. Crimea was annexed by Soviets (previously this is the province of the Russian Empire). Lenin raised the level of the country, because before his arrival in Ukraine were gentlemen (upper class) and were peasants (countrymen), who worked all day in the field for a penny. For the murder of a peasant, that owned to him as a slave, barin could pay a measly money. Lenin created equality among people of all classes (of course, the bourgeoisie was unhappy).

Contribution of allies (Britain and the United States) to victory on fascism was minimal.

 

D Day disagrees. The desert Campaign disagrees. Southern Italy disagrees. The liberation of France Disagrees. Boy, a lot of sh*t Disagrees.

 Also, Britain, and the United States were almost untouched by the Nazis during the invasion. 

 

London Disagrees, The south coast disagrees. Man, this is getting a little repetitive.

 

It's probably no surprise that I consider the Bolshevik revolution to be a good thing. In fact, most people in the west probably do, even pro capitalists and liberals and such, I also consider Lenin on large to be a positive Human being with a good affect on Russia, which is probably where I differ from the previously mentioned Liberals, but Stalin was a monster. Intellectually barren, arrogant and corrupt to the core. It is a shame that Trotsky was the one to suffer an Ice Pick to the head, Stalin destroyed a large majority of the positive influences of the Bolsheviks cause and decimated the Officer corp against all advice from experts due to pure arrogance. Russia certainly Helped in WWII and it can be argued that to an extent it saved the west, but that means nothing considering how many people that man caused the deaths of, to an extent that it is almost comparable to the genocide committed by the Nazis, were it not for him largely wiping out his own people.


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#74

Posted 25 February 2014 - 10:09 AM Edited by Doc Rikowski, 25 February 2014 - 10:25 AM.

@ sivi (sorry forgot to quote you)

 

Were protesters in the UK actually carrying fire weapons and killing policemen like they did in Kiev?

Were the protesters in UK attacking and occupying government buildings?

Were the protesters in the UK aiming at overthrowing the democratically elected government?

 

;)

 

Anyway in Genoa a protester was killed by a firearm shot by the police and 61 were seriously injured and hospitalized in the Diaz raid.

http://en.wikipedia....the_Diaz_school

The fact nobody died that night is a pure coincidence.

And people were simply sleeping in those schools. Just imagine if they were violently protesting in the streets what would have happened.

 

You are both avoiding the main point: protests in Kiev were violent to the point that protesters carried all type of weapons and even fire weapons and engaged security forces in violent clashes that resulted in deaths from both sides.

How would the West react in the same exact situation?

How would Western security forces react when their lives are in danger?

How would a Western democratically elected government react if the opposition tried to overthrow it in a violent manner?

 

We can debate as much as we want about what happened and about the geo-strategical and geo-political nature of Ukraine events but lets' please leave political naivety on a side cause we all know there are no freedom peaceful fighters in this beside the innocent idiots that followed the radical/nazi ones, there is no innocent and honest Ukrainian government, there is no West or East government that actually cares about Ukrainian people and future their. It's a well organized cold war battle that is presented as a mess just for the eyes of the naive average TV spectator.

 

EDIT: not wanting to go off topic but on the subject of WWII I can agree on the fact that it wasn't the USSR that single handedly won the Nazi (considering the fact that the West also economically supported USSR during the conflict) but it is indeed true that Stalingrad and not D DAY was the turning point of the conflict in Europe. That's when Hitler started to lose.

I'd even say that rather than the allies winning WWII it was Hitler that lost it by making some of the worst strategical choices in war history including the one of opening a second front against the most dangerous enemy he could face: USSR.


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#75

Posted 25 February 2014 - 10:12 AM

Were protesters in the UK actually carrying fire weapons and killing policemen like they did in Kiev?

Were the protesters in UK attacking and occupying government buildings?

Were the protesters in the UK aiming at overthrowing the democratically elected government?

 

;)

 

Anyway in Genoa a protester was killed by a firearm shot by the police and 61 were seriously injured and hospitalized in the Diaz raid.

http://en.wikipedia....the_Diaz_school

The fact nobody died that night is a pure coincidence.

And people were simply sleeping in those schools. Just imagine if they were violently protesting in the streets what would have happened.

 

You are both avoiding the main point: protests in Kiev were violent to the point that protesters carried all type of weapons and even fire weapons and engaged security forces in violent clashes that resulted in deaths from both sides.

How would the West react in the same exact situation?

How would Western security forces react when their lives are in danger?

How would a Western democratically elected government react if the opposition tried to overthrow it in a violent manner?

 

We can debate as much as we want about what happened and about the geo-strategical and geo-political nature of Ukraine events but lets' please leave political naivety on a side cause we all know there are no freedom peaceful fighters in this beside the innocent idiots that followed the radical/nazi ones, there is no innocent and honest Ukrainian government, there is no West or East government that actually cares about Ukrainian people and future. It's a well organized cold war battle that is presented as a mess just for the eyes of the naive average TV spectator.

I was sort of supporting your point, but okay whatever If you're going to go that way, well

 

81988-Elliott-if-were-gonna-go-that-Q3uY


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#76

Posted 25 February 2014 - 10:15 AM

It's also worth mentioning that you (that is, flame351) say I'm wrong, and then go on at length about the disparity between wealthy land-owners and peasent even though a) it has absolutely no relevance to my discussion of military history and strategic theory, and b) it's a bit misleading given that the post-revolutionary society was not really any more equal than the pre-revolutionary society; both governed by a hypocritical and incestuous inner circle of corrupt individuals who lived in comparative luxury and subjugated their fellow man with both the sword and the purse.

@Doc- it's all very well speculating "how" Western powers might react in a similar situation but it is just that-speculation. You can't really make an assertion because there isn't a similar situation to compare with.

Actually, that's not entirely true. There were plenty of mass protest movements in Western nations over the last 20 or so years that have resulted in the voluntary resignation of political regimes. Some of which certainly had violent undercurrents- the most notable example I can think of off-hand being the Greek protests of 2011-12. By "Western" standards Greece is quite illiberal yet we didn't see the same kind of state sanctioned violence being perpetrated against a mass protest movement with a violent right-wing undercurrent. Sure, there was an element of violence in the response of the police to the protest movement but that was quite distinct from the attitude taken by the government.

A great deal of the question about the Ukraine events boils down to whether the protest movement, violent or otherwise, has the popular support of the majority of citizens. You quite rightly say that Yanukovych was democratically elected, but let's not forget that it was electoral fraud done on behalf of him which started the Orange Revolution back in 2004. An outright majority of Ukrainian citizens in January 2010 felt that that year's election would be subject to vote manipulation although independent monitors declared the election free and fair.

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#77

Posted 25 February 2014 - 10:21 AM

A'ye just read in a newspaper that a Russian Navy is approaching Ukrainian coast of Crimeea.

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#78

Posted 25 February 2014 - 10:26 AM Edited by jln22, 25 February 2014 - 10:27 AM.

I'd even say that rather than the allies winning WWII it was Hitler that lost it by making some of the worst strategical choices in war history including the one of opening a second front against the most dangerous enemy they could find: USSR.


A'ye there are some secret Soviet reports that were given to publicity that proved USSR would have invaded the whole Europe once they have sorted things with their Army Commanders and such.

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#79

Posted 25 February 2014 - 10:27 AM Edited by Doc Rikowski, 25 February 2014 - 10:27 AM.

I was sort of supporting your point, but okay whatever If you're going to go that way, well

I was replying to sivispacem and K^2. Sorry for the misunderstanding and lack of quoting. ;)


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#80

Posted 25 February 2014 - 10:33 AM

You are both avoiding the main point: protests in Kiev were violent to the point that protesters carried all type of weapons and even fire weapons and engaged security forces in violent clashes that resulted in deaths from both sides.
How would the West react in the same exact situation?
How would Western security forces react when their lives are in danger?
How would a Western democratically elected government react if the opposition tried to overthrow it in a violent manner?

There were three months of truly peaceful protests, during which people have been beaten, kidnapped, tortured, and killed by the police forces. When people got fed up with it and tried to defend themselves, police started using firearms. After several people got killed in January, some protesters started bringing in fire-arms, which have not been used for another two or three weeks.

Can you imagine any of that in any Western country? And if that did happen in a Western country, could you blame people for a moment for overthrowing a government that allowed all of this to happen?

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#81

Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:33 AM Edited by Doc Rikowski, 25 February 2014 - 11:34 AM.

@sivi: in fact I am speculating. Aren't we all to a certain degree? I'm just saying that the Ukraine situation is unique in so many levels that we can't just simplify it with good (protesters) vs evil (government) standards. There are hidden forces at work from both sides (West and East).

It is a cold war battlefield cause cold war never actually ended. 

 

I'm also simply saying that Western countries usually do repress protests in a violent manner. It doesn't matter if the protests are peaceful or violent. The reaction most of the times is violent when certain "themes" are touched by the protesters.

Some Western governments did lose the elections after certain events and after certain protests but nor the protests nor the reaction were that violent. So ultimately I do personally believe that a Western power would react the same way if the protest was radical and armed and aiming at changing the status quo of the nation. Cause we do all know that it is not only the government of the country that is at stakes in Ukraine but the final alignment of Ukraine in the geo-political map: with the West or with the East.

 

@ K^2

A few days ago an agreement was reached by the opposition and the government. As soon as this was announced by all media violence exploded again on the square. It is quite obvious that the radical side of the opposition (the nazi one and their hidden puppeteers) wasn't interested in any kind of peaceful agreement and that as soon as an agreement was announced it was as easy as lighting a match to start the chaos again.

 

I'm not blaming anyone for defending themselves against any type of authority.

If it was up to me I would overthrow my own government with violence for being corrupted and criminal to the core since the Republic was founded (Italy, 1946). Ukraine situation is just as hopeless as Italy's one. Both are non-nations historically subjected to the wills of foreign powers and governed by corrupted political servants with no interests in their country and in their countrymen.

If Ukrainians would ever fight for their freedom they should avoid joining the EU and stop being a satellite state of Russia.

Will that happen? Certainly not. You can't fight such destiny. People can't beat the Real Powers. Imho...


K^2
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#82

Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:58 AM

@ K^2
A few days ago an agreement was reached by the opposition and the government. As soon as this was announced by all media violence exploded again on the square.

Dude. Have you bothered at all to learn what was going on? Why people were on the streets? And what the nature of the agreement was? And who it was made with? Or why people were upset about the limited scope of the agreement? No, of course not. You keep insisting that "we can't know". And, of course, if you don't bother to try and learn, you can't know.

There are several key reasons why the peace agreement was broken. First, instead of the amnesty that was promised to people who were thrown in jail for a peaceful process months ago, the head prosecutor announced that they are going to review the cases. If you don't know, which by now I'm sure you don't, the head prosecutor is the guy who was assisting president in illegally obtaining businesses for himself and his family, as well as moving government money into both of their pockets. They've showed his mansion shortly after the government fell. It looked like a museum. But anyways, that was the first escalation. Second, people were primarily looking for resignation of the president and his gov't. That did not happen. The so-called "leaders" of the opposition brokered a deal that did not meet the objectives of the protest. And the protests renewed in full force. Except, by then, many officials have started defecting, and so the parliament finally took the pro-revolutionary position.

Again, this isn't something you have to learn from being on the streets in Kyiv. In fact, that was one of the worst places to be for reliable information. But it's something you could have very easily pieced together if you were actually paying attention to the events.

Naturally, if you are just jumping into a discussion now without any prior knowledge of the events, having zero understanding of the culture, being unable to read Russian or Ukrainian, but worst of all, refusing to make a genuine effort to actually do proper research, yes, you are going to miss a lot of vital information.

And that's your choice. But when you assume that other people are going to be in the same position, you are making a grave mistake. If you don't bother to learn what's going on, just stay out of the discussion, and don't pretend that everyone else is just as ignorant of it as you are.

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#83

Posted 25 February 2014 - 12:21 PM

Where are your examples or Western nations repressing protest in a violent manner as a matter of habit, doc? I'm not saying that acts of violence perpetrated by the security apparatus don't exist, because that's clearly false, but I can't think of a single contextually similar example where there's a clear, concerted campaign by members of a political administration to use the security apparatus to repress protest.

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#84

Posted 25 February 2014 - 12:26 PM Edited by Doc Rikowski, 25 February 2014 - 12:41 PM.

K^2 you have a way of always bringing any debate on a personal level that is very close to insulting the person you're debating with rather than actually debating the other person's views. It's an old and shady debating technique called argumentum ad hominem.

You always resort to that when you have no arguments to counter an opinion. Actually even when you have them...

And you mix it with your own version of the argumentum ab auctoritatem in which the "authority" is usually you.

On top of that you make assumptions about me or any other debater based on nothing more than assumptions taken from posts in which nothing you assumed is even mentioned.

This is not my game and I don't play it like that.

And sorry but I stay in the discussion for as long as I want cause you are not in the position to order to other people what they should do even though I'm sure you'd love to do so. ;)

 

Anyway you get lost in details and you miss the big picture. A truce and agreement were in place and they were violently broken.

We can discuss as much as we want on the reasons why it was broken but it doesn't change the fact that the radicals were leading the opposition and that they are a bunch of nazi-fascists who preferred to maintain the chaos and violence that suited their own agenda rather than discussing any kind of solution.

And big surprise! The president had a mansion and he was corrupted!

Have you ever seen Berlusconi's mansions? Do you even know the extent of his corruption?

Yanukovich is a noob compared to him.

And yet if we'd ever insurge against Italy's corrupted government (yes, even the current newly not-elected young PM has been condemned in the past for corruption) we'd be wiped out with the support of all Western "democracies". :D

 

@ sivi: I'm sorry but pretty much every radical protest that happened in Italy since 1946 was repressed with violence no matter if the government was left or right. Genoa 2000 is only the most famous event known outside of Italy and that's why I mention it as an example cause I know that internal Italian affairs are not very well known outside Italy.

And please notice the words I used. I said "usually" and "most of the times" the reaction is violent "when certain themes are touched by the protesters". Not all the time. Not in all protests. 


sivispacem
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#85

Posted 25 February 2014 - 01:22 PM

Pretty much every protest in a nation that could hardly be categorised as liberal and Western until the end of the strategy of tension does not really demonstrate your point. Nor does continued reference to Genoa without some discussion of whether brutality was directly sanctioned by the Italian government. Was it? Was the use of violence there by riot police a clear example of a government policy to suppress dissent, or was it a result of the police being left to manage hostile crowd control without any direct strategic input from government? Hardly an apples-to-apples comparison. Discussion around corruption is nice and all but just strikes me as an attempt to skirt around the issue- saying the Bellusconi was corrupt too doesn't really counter the argument that it's totally logical for protesters not to trust the word of a political figure who embezzled public funds and stole property.

I don't see where K^2 has made an ad hominem argument? He questioned your motivation and knowledge, that's not really an ad hominem. Additionally I'm failing to see anything that could be constituted an appeal to authority? You can verify the accuracy and validity of most of what he says with little more than a Google search, and if you really want to have a discussion about the veracity of sources and supporting information you'll have to start supplying external sources for your own, too.

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#86

Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:43 PM Edited by Doc Rikowski, 25 February 2014 - 02:44 PM.

Yes, it was a government policy in Genoa and the culprits were defended by the government.

 

I wasn't the one that introduced the corruption of the Ukrainian government in the debate. 

I just said it was no surprise to me. All governments are corrupted to a certain degree.

Power corrupts human beings.

 

As for K^2 I'll quote:

 

"Have you bothered at all to learn what was going on?"
"No, of course not."
"And, of course, if you don't bother to try and learn, you can't know."
 
^ - Assuming I don't bother to learn
 
---
 
"But it's something you could have very easily pieced together if you were actually paying attention to the events."
 
^ - Assuming I'm not paying attention to the events.
 
---
 
"Naturally, if you are just jumping into a discussion now without any prior knowledge of the events, having zero understanding of the culture, being unable to read Russian or Ukrainian, but worst of all, refusing to make a genuine effort to actually do proper research, yes, you are going to miss a lot of vital information."
 
^ - Assuming I have no prior knowledge of the events, zero understanding of the culture and assuming that I refuse to make any proper research.
 
---
 
"If you don't bother to learn what's going on, just stay out of the discussion, and don't pretend that everyone else is just as ignorant of it as you are."
 
^- Once again assuming I do not bother to learn. Ordering me to stay out of the discussion and ultimately insulting me by calling me an ignorant (which I should have reported if I was just another user).
 
Is that enough sivi?
I think there's enough to call it ad hominem especially cause he's questioning my knowledge which in no civilized debate could ever be considered a proper way of debating. He can question my motivation or my ideas but not my knowledge cause he doesn't know who I am nor from which cultural background I come from. And he certainly doesn't know what I know and what I did or did not researched and studied.
Just look at how I debate. I never put it on a personal level nor I will ever call someone an ignorant just because I have a different perspective.
But well offense non taken cause I already knew that is his way of "debating" things.
 
The appeal to authority it's there. As I said he thinks he's the authority. ;)
 

 

 

You can verify the accuracy and validity of most of what he says with little more than a Google search and if you really want to have a discussion about the veracity of sources and supporting information you'll have to start supplying external sources for your own, too.
 
This goes both ways sivi. I could say exactly the same to you about what I say when I talk about repression in my own corrupted country (which btw is still governed using the strategy of tension) but I have to supply sources while you guys can just invite me to do a Google search. Nice try! :D
 
 
From now on I will only reply on non personal things.
Sivi you are a fair and clever debater, that is something that I know, but K^2 style doesn't suit me.
It can work with naive members, not with me. ;)

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#87

Posted 25 February 2014 - 03:25 PM

I'm not going to get caught up in discussion of the merits of K^2's response (though I will say that his personal connection to the region gives him an insight that the rest of us who don't possess that familiarity lack) but I'm sure he will. Questioning the grounding or evidential basis of someone's views, or contrasting them with that which is publicly available, is a perfectly legitimate action in a discussion like this- not an attack on the man but his understanding of the subject.

Going back to Genoa, do you have any evidence that repression of political protest was a specific government policy? Or is that merely an assumption, no matter how informed? Additionally, I'm puzzled by the consistent focus on Italy when you've made generalist statements that are supposed to be applicable across all Western powers.

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#88

Posted 25 February 2014 - 04:11 PM Edited by Street Mix, 25 February 2014 - 04:15 PM.

Were protesters in the UK actually carrying fire weapons and killing policemen like they did in Kiev?

Was Doc Rikowski actually reading the news or just russian propaganda?

 

First 2 months protesters were very peaceful.

Only on 19 January they started using Molotovs and bricks for defense.

Month later, when gov't killed ~50-70 unarmed protesters - only then some of rebels took real weapons and killed 5 or 10 militiants. IMO should've killed more. They deserved it.

Maybe killed more than 10 or less, I don't know but for sure it's not rebels who started the bloodshed and it's not 9000 "innocent" "unarmed" militia who were "brutally murdered" by "evil Nazi terrorists" as been lied by russian propaganda.

 

P.S. Police in Ukraine is still called militia.


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#89

Posted 25 February 2014 - 04:16 PM

You have to keep in mind Italy isn't the model of western democracy. They're kinda like the retarded cousin that won't shut up at Thanksgiving dinner, but we all just have to deal with. 


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#90

Posted 25 February 2014 - 04:16 PM Edited by Doc Rikowski, 25 February 2014 - 04:28 PM.

@ sivi:

 

I don't want to get caught up in the same discussion, trust me.

Anyway an insight doesn't give him the right to shut up everyone else.

 

On top of that I'm not talking about some conspiracy theories.

I'm just commenting well known facts and expressing my own opinion on those.

That part of the opposition in Ukraine is formed by radical nazi-fascists groups it is common knowledge

That some of the protesters are armed and violent it is common knowledge.

That Ukraine is being disputed by West and East it is common knowledge.

That a truce and an agreement was reached before the last outburst of violence it is common knowledge.

 

I even acknowledged that the Ukrainian government was indeed corrupted and that the protesters had the right to defend themselves.

 

Problem is I'm the kind of person that can see when a situation is gray while many just want it to classified it as either black or white.

Well, unless you look at things through the lens of propaganda, ideology or patriotism, there's no such thing in history as black or white.

History is made of different shades of gray.

 

---

 

About Genoa: security forces have been charged and accused at the highest level and some proceedings are still going on.

The highest levels directly take orders from the ministry of interior so unless in Genoa the security forces decided that they would act independently from the government it is quite obvious that there is a political responsibility and a clear repressing policy of the government in charge at the time.

Berlusconi was in charge at the time so I guess there's nothing to explain here...

Don't forget Italy had a 7 times PM that was  finally condemned for being part of the Mafia till 1980.

 

I focus my examples on Italy cause it is a good example of a cold war battlefield and of a country that has no real sovereignty on its internal political affairs (cause well, fair enough, we lost WWII...) just like Ukraine now.

I made general statements that are indeed applicable across many Western powers.

I hope I'm not the only one that has seen police brutality and protests repressed since the end of WWII in Italy, Spain, France, Greece, UK, USA etc etc

Maybe it was just a movie lol

 

---

 

@ StreetMix: do you actually ever question the news or if they say on CNN pigs are flying you actually believe it? ;)

 

@ Nipperkins: so retarded we gave civilization to the Western world. ;)





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