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"K-Enemies" Versus "R-Enemies"

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D- Ice
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#1

Posted 30 April 2014 - 12:54 PM Edited by D- Ice, 30 April 2014 - 12:59 PM.

I was playing Fallout 3 several days ago, when I received quite a shock. The loading screen that came up displayed my stats, saying that I has only killed 70-odd humans and a slightly larger number of other creatures. This was all when I had only the final mission in the main storyline left, and was just exploring the wastelands planning to complete the side-quests.

If we are to compare this to the likes of GTA IV, you would've killed as much people perhaps within the first third of the game, and in missions only - without all the free-roam fights that I got into in Fallout.

 

The somewhat odd-sounding title of this thread relates to reproductive strategies. And the topic is how you want the enemies to be like in the next GTA game - plentyful and easy to dispatch ("R-enemies"), or fewer with killing each one a challange ("K-Enemies"). I have been debating this issue for years here, but that shock from fallout reminded/inspired me to make a thread about the subject here.

 

With GTA, I have noticed a steady and clear move from having few, difficult and memorable enemies to more and easier enemies. It is very clear to see this progresson from GTA 3 to VC, and then to SA, then to the PSP games LCS and VCS, then to IV and finally now in V killng dozens of ridiculously easy cannon-fodder enemies is quite routine.

 

Personally, I really dislike this evolution in GTA games for three main reasons:

 

  1. The need for worthy opponents. When you routinely kill dozens of enemies in missions, killing each individual becomes lke killng ants. I'd much rather have fewer, more difficult enemies, where I have to consider each individual's strengths and weaknesses to come up with a strategy. I don't want to just think about if I have to kill 30, 40, or 50 similarly-easy cannon-fodder enemies.
  2. It is unrealistic when, for example in GTA V:
    Spoiler
    It is also unrealistic that you routinely kill dozens of men in the middle of the streets in US cities in broad daylight and can easily get away with it, and everything is normal the next day. I understand that most games aren't realistic, but they need to have some feasibility for me to take them seriously.
  3. It makes the entire premise of missions and the story incredibly dull and irrelevant. Why would I care if I pissed off a lowly two-bit hoodlum or an incredibly powerful and influencial and well connected corrupt businessman or politician, if both can just as easily call up an army of heavily-armed gangsters after you? All these details of the story become largely irrelevant, and you really can't feel an escalation of violence with the game progression - it all becomes a rather dull killing spree.

Please do share and discuss how you'd like your enemies in the next GTA game - large numbers of easily klled cannon-fodder enemies that swarm you like angry lemmings on PCP, or smaller numbers of more challanging and unique enemies, with different tactics, strategy and AI.

I'd be very interested in hearing everyone's thoughts. :)

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B Dawg
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    Looks like the diversion worked!

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#2

Posted 30 April 2014 - 07:15 PM Edited by B Dawg, 30 April 2014 - 07:16 PM.

It would be nice if bosses would return in the next GTA, the only ones I can remember are Big Smoke in SA and Sonny/Lance in VC (not sure, haven't played VC in a long time) Why should the protagonist be the only one with a lot of health and be unaffected by euphoria bullet impact? We need some resistant enemies, hell even mini-bosses every few missions that take more than 1 headshot or 5 bodyshots to kill and are accurate with their weapons. It would be something new and fresh and actually more realistic against the player.

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D- Ice
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#3

Posted 01 May 2014 - 09:47 PM Edited by D- Ice, 01 May 2014 - 09:50 PM.

It would be nice if bosses would return in the next GTA, the only ones I can remember are Big Smoke in SA and Sonny/Lance in VC (not sure, haven't played VC in a long time) Why should the protagonist be the only one with a lot of health and be unaffected by euphoria bullet impact? We need some resistant enemies, hell even mini-bosses every few missions that take more than 1 headshot or 5 bodyshots to kill and are accurate with their weapons. It would be something new and fresh and actually more realistic against the player.

Bosses were great - Ialso really miss not having them.

But I don't necessarily want the leaders of criminal organisations, the bosses, to be the most difficult enemies. In reality they aren't difficult to kill per se - it is the professional bodyguards they hire to protect them, and the hitmen and mercenaries they hire against enemies who are the real problems in gun fights. These are the people I'dlike to have "Boss Battles" against.

 

I also don't want there to be just regular enemies and bosses. I want there to be a multitude of different enemy types, each with unique AI and strengths and weaknesses. As you progress through the game, I also want enemies to become progressively more difficult. For example from fighting street gangs protecting crack dens to professional bodyguards protecting an organised crime boss or corrupt businessman, to private military contractors protecting politicians ormulti-billionaire businessmen.

Similarly, getting on the wrong side of low-level gangs because of storyline events or actions you do in free-roam will get you retaliation that's easy to deal with - some gangsters in a car doing a drive-by on you. If you piss off a more powerful organised crime syndicate, you'll likely get a more professional hitman sent after you, to shoot you with his Lupara (sawn-off shotgun) or submachine gun. Piss off the most powerful organisations in game, and expect heavily armed mercenary death squads or sophisticated assassination plots.

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B Dawg
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    Looks like the diversion worked!

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#4

Posted 02 May 2014 - 08:18 AM Edited by B Dawg, 02 May 2014 - 12:51 PM.

Similarly, getting on the wrong side of low-level gangs because of storyline events or actions you do in free-roam will get you retaliation that's easy to deal with - some gangsters in a car doing a drive-by on you. If you piss off a more powerful organised crime syndicate, you'll likely get a more professional hitman sent after you, to shoot you with his Lupara (sawn-off shotgun) or submachine gun. Piss off the most powerful organisations in game, and expect heavily armed mercenary death squads or sophisticated assassination plots.

Like the GTA III mafia that kill you on sight? :lol:

 

I like how in Vigilante: Vice City some criminals had that devastating pump shotgun or how in IV they had more health and more powerful weaponry with each successful level. They take a lot of bullets if not shot in the head and they throw grenades making camping at mid-range suicidal, forcing you to always move close quarters or snipe from a distance.

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D- Ice
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#5

Posted 02 May 2014 - 09:48 PM Edited by D- Ice, 02 May 2014 - 09:53 PM.

Haha I remember just how terrified I was from those guys back when I was first playing GTA 3. In fact, it was just recently that I dared venturing back into Portland after they start wielding shotguns. In GTA 3 and VC, shotguns were by far the most intimidating weapons the NPCs can possibly have. Thanks for brining up all the great nostalgic memories. :)

 

My idea is very similar to that. But rather than just wandering the streets and only shooting you when you go into their territory, the people the send after you (drive-by gangsters/hitmen/death squads/assassins/etc...) would track you down wherever you are in the city - kind of like the hitmen sent after you in LCS or the hit squads in VCS. Though of course, street gangs will still roam the streets, attacking you if you're on bad terms with them.

I'd imagine that would make for some very interesting scenarios - like if you are in street gang territory, there will likely be a shootout between the hitman sent after you and local gangsters. Or imagine running into a police station with a heavily-armed death-squad after you - it will be similar to this scene in Terminator 1. :devil:

 

The enemies won't just get more difficult because of their weapons, but also with better AI - street gangs have bad weapons skill and fight individually, hitmen have good weapons skill and fight individually, and death squads have good weapons skill but fight in tactical teams. With the increasing health, I don't want it to just be somethng programmed into the game, but you should be able to see them wearing better armour. Imagine a death squad after you wearing the typeof armour you wore in GTA V in

Spoiler
In situations like that, the smart option is to run - not just mowing them down too like every other enemy in GTA these days.





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