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Stephan90
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#61

Posted 26 April 2014 - 07:36 AM

The European "Elites" want a European superstate. But in fact, with their politics they are even destroying the social cohesion in the existing countries. I support Catalonias independence. Or at least it makes me angry that the Spanish government is deniying Catalonia a referendum.


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#62

Posted 26 April 2014 - 09:23 AM

The European "Elites" want a European superstate.


Let's not have this topic turn into you whining about the EU, again.
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RoadRunner71
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#63

Posted 26 April 2014 - 10:04 AM

Strangely enough, before the dear Catalonian president Artur Mas began his quest for the independence, everyday you could read in the news how they were shutting down public services in Catalonia and about corruption issues between the political caste that now leads the independentist movement, something that now seems forgotten.

I see the Catalonian independence as an attempt to make another little feud where the current leaders of the independist movements could countinue stealing with impunity. The people will stay in te same sh*tty situation but they won't care as the nationalism will still blind them.

About the right to decide, even if it may not be "democratic" to let some part of the society decide about their independence (what's currently democratic, anyway), you can't let either a country disintegrate for the sake of "democracy".
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#64

Posted 26 April 2014 - 05:46 PM Edited by Palikari, 26 April 2014 - 05:47 PM.

I support Catalonias independence. Or at least it makes me angry that the Spanish government is deniying Catalonia a referendum.

Do you hate Catalonia, right? Independence from Spain would ruin Catalonia.

 

Angry why? National sovereignty belongs to all Spaniards. It's all Spaniards who decide the borders of Spain. A referendum would be illegal and unconstitutional. The same happens in your country and mine. The only Constitution in the world that allows unilateral seccession is Ethiopia's Constitution, adopted in 1995.

Most Catalans don't support independence, by the way. Only 27% of Catalans voted for separatist parties.


About the right to decide, even if it may not be "democratic" to let some part of the society decide about their independence (what's currently democratic, anyway), you can't let either a country disintegrate for the sake of "democracy".

Right to decide? All Spaniards have right to decide their borders. National sovereignty belongs to all Spaniards. To carry out a referendum against the law and to deprive most Spaniards of exercising their right to vote on such important national affair is not democratic.

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#65

Posted 26 April 2014 - 05:58 PM

 

About the right to decide, even if it may not be "democratic" to let some part of the society decide about their independence (what's currently democratic, anyway), you can't let either a country disintegrate for the sake of "democracy".

Right to decide? All Spaniards have right to decide their borders. National sovereignty belongs to all Spaniards. To carry out a referendum against the law and to deprive most Spaniards of exercising their right to vote on such important national affair is not democratic.

 

I agree. Just that if you lived here you'd be hearing almost everyday this "right to decide" thing used as an accepted term when talking about this matter. If they did a referendum, it should be statewide.

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#66

Posted 26 April 2014 - 06:06 PM

I agree. Just that if you lived here you'd be hearing almost everyday this "right to decide" thing used as an accepted term when talking about this matter. If they did a referendum, it should be statewide.

 

"Right to decide" is just an euphemism to "right to seccession". That right does not exist anywhere, with some exceptions.

 

It's funny how separatists talk about a "right to decide", but Catalans have no right to decide how many taxes they pay or that their taxes don't be wasted funding separatism and buying all the media to make non-separatist media disappear. Catalans can't even decide the language their children take classes in at school!

 

Separatists are a bunch of totalitarian hypocrites.


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#67

Posted 27 April 2014 - 05:25 PM Edited by Melchior, 27 April 2014 - 05:26 PM.

So separatism is only legitimate, if the entity they're separating from agrees to it on their own terms? So if Chechnya wanted to leave Russia, that wouldn't be on? What about that affair with Kosovo- was that an undemocratic farce? Irish independence? French Indo-China? The American Revolution? The list is endless. 

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#68

Posted 28 April 2014 - 10:04 AM Edited by Myron, 28 April 2014 - 10:04 AM.

I for one would like to see the Ottoman Empire restored. The Ottoman Turks did not agree to Serbian, Greek, Bosnian, Albanian, Armenian, Romanian, Syrian and Egyptian states being formed or returned.

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#69

Posted 28 April 2014 - 10:11 AM

So separatism is only legitimate, if the entity they're separating from agrees to it on their own terms? So if Chechnya wanted to leave Russia, that wouldn't be on? What about that affair with Kosovo- was that an undemocratic farce? Irish independence? French Indo-China? The American Revolution? The list is endless. 

If it's something that affects the whole country, the whole country should have a word on it. Catalonia is not a colony or an occupied territory. At least that's how I feel about it.


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#70

Posted 28 April 2014 - 10:23 AM Edited by Doc Rikowski, 28 April 2014 - 10:28 AM.

If you had lived in Spain for a couple of years it would be clear to you that a Catalan is from a completely different "country" and heritage than someone from Madrid.

Same for a Basque and even a Valencian or Galician (they even speak different languages).

That is only valid, of course, unless you are of Castilian heritage and living in one of those regions.

It is a complicated situation because all these regions are "ethnically" mixed, a bit like the East Ukrainian situation but less dramatic

(beside of course the ETA separatism which was and is pretty much very dramatic).

 

As far as I could experience Spain is a country that resulted by the union of different nationalities and cultures.

Not really comparable to other western European countries like Portugal, France and even Italy (which has a similar history in terms of ethnical mixture and dialects)

that share a common heritage and language in the majority of regions.

I mean, Spain national anthem has no lyrics exactly cause they couldn't agree on them nor wanted to use one language over the others.

 

Does all this mean that independence is the solution?

That is really up to the people of each region.

Vote it and decide.

Majority rules.

It's not fair but that's how it works in our system.


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#71

Posted 28 April 2014 - 10:25 AM

I think I'm right in saying that there isn't an outright majority of Spanish Catalan who support Catalan independence. Perhaps if the Spanish government did more to provide them with greater regional autonomy there would be less support for independence; the same is probably true of the UK and Scotland for instance.
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SouthLand
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#72

Posted 28 April 2014 - 11:24 AM

The European "Elites" want a European superstate. But in fact, with their politics they are even destroying the social cohesion in the existing countries. I support Catalonias independence. Or at least it makes me angry that the Spanish government is deniying Catalonia a referendum.

 

Do you also support Bavaria's independence? ;)

 

 

 

Strangely enough, before the dear Catalonian president Artur Mas began his quest for the independence, everyday you could read in the news how they were shutting down public services in Catalonia and about corruption issues between the political caste that now leads the independentist movement, something that now seems forgotten.

I see the Catalonian independence as an attempt to make another little feud where the current leaders of the independist movements could countinue stealing with impunity. The people will stay in te same sh*tty situation but they won't care as the nationalism will still blind them.

About the right to decide, even if it may not be "democratic" to let some part of the society decide about their independence (what's currently democratic, anyway), you can't let either a country disintegrate for the sake of "democracy".

 

You just nailed it there.

 

 

 

I support Catalonias independence. Or at least it makes me angry that the Spanish government is deniying Catalonia a referendum.

Do you hate Catalonia, right? Independence from Spain would ruin Catalonia.

 

Angry why? National sovereignty belongs to all Spaniards. It's all Spaniards who decide the borders of Spain. A referendum would be illegal and unconstitutional. The same happens in your country and mine. The only Constitution in the world that allows unilateral seccession is Ethiopia's Constitution, adopted in 1995.

Most Catalans don't support independence, by the way. Only 27% of Catalans voted for separatist parties.


About the right to decide, even if it may not be "democratic" to let some part of the society decide about their independence (what's currently democratic, anyway), you can't let either a country disintegrate for the sake of "democracy".

Right to decide? All Spaniards have right to decide their borders. National sovereignty belongs to all Spaniards. To carry out a referendum against the law and to deprive most Spaniards of exercising their right to vote on such important national affair is not democratic.

 

 

I have heard from a lot of guys who own small/medium business that if Independence is declared in Catalonia there are going to have to leave and shut down their business.

 

So separatism is only legitimate, if the entity they're separating from agrees to it on their own terms? So if Chechnya wanted to leave Russia, that wouldn't be on? What about that affair with Kosovo- was that an undemocratic farce? Irish independence? French Indo-China? The American Revolution? The list is endless. 

 

They have always been Spanish. Andorra, is a small country that has been independent for hundreds of years just the same as San Marino, Catlonia just wants the independence for stupid economical lies.

 

 

 

If you had lived in Spain for a couple of years it would be clear to you that a Catalan is from a completely different "country" and heritage than someone from Madrid.

Same for a Basque and even a Valencian or Galician (they even speak different languages).

That is only valid, of course, unless you are of Castilian heritage and living in one of those regions.

It is a complicated situation because all these regions are "ethnically" mixed, a bit like the East Ukrainian situation but less dramatic

(beside of course the ETA separatism which was and is pretty much very dramatic).

 

As far as I could experience Spain is a country that resulted by the union of different nationalities and cultures.

Not really comparable to other western European countries like Portugal, France and even Italy (which has a similar history in terms of ethnical mixture and dialects)

that share a common heritage and language in the majority of regions.

I mean, Spain national anthem has no lyrics exactly cause they couldn't agree on them nor wanted to use one language over the others.

 

Does all this mean that independence is the solution?

That is really up to the people of each region.

Vote it and decide.

Majority rules.

It's not fair but that's how it works in our system.

 

Make Spain's economy become better and you will see how most of the Catalans who support independence will "forget" about wanting to secede. :)

 

 

I think I'm right in saying that there isn't an outright majority of Spanish Catalan who support Catalan independence. Perhaps if the Spanish government did more to provide them with greater regional autonomy there would be less support for independence; the same is probably true of the UK and Scotland for instance.

 

Catalonia has:

 

-It's own police force: Mossos d'Esquadra

-Catalan government forces kids to study only in Catalan in public schools (Spanish is treated as a foreign language)

-All street signs and street names are in Catalan.

-If you open a shop, the sign has to be in Catalan or you get a fine.

 

And so on... Plus, the Catalan government likes to brainwash  kids too support the independence:

 

escuela-cat_560x280.jpg

 

adoctrinamiento-en-la-escuela-catalana-1

 

adoctrinamiento+independentista+en+el+co

"I am showing you a drawing made by own of my students. Kids learn, kids feel and the show it how they can"

 

 

20130704esteladas.jpg

 

"Schools in Catalan now and always."

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sivispacem
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#73

Posted 28 April 2014 - 12:10 PM

Which is nice and all, but kind of ignores the biggest issue for most Catalan, which is the lack of economic independence. Despite being economically the largest Spanish region it has significantly lower GDP per capita than other comparable areas and very high living costs. The success of the independence movement goes hand in hand with Spanish government economic mismanagement during the recession and the particularly severe effects on the secondary industrial sector which is larger in Catalonia than anywhere else in Spain.
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#74

Posted 28 April 2014 - 12:17 PM

I see no problem in teaching children about their language and culture and I think it's very important to keep small, yet distinct cultures like this alive. I don't know enough about the situation to say whether I think they should secede, but I think they should at least be allowed to decide for themselves. 

 

Southland: I can't tell from your posts if you support Catalonian nationalism or if you are against it? How different is the situation between Catalonian and Basque nationalism? From my understanding, Basque is more distinct from Spanish and it's supporters are more popular and extreme? That said, I know very little details about the situation.


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#75

Posted 28 April 2014 - 12:55 PM

The basque one has a more "cultural" background. The basque nationalism mainly began with the arrival of workers of other parts of Spain to the basque territory with the industrialization, which used to be a very traditional and conservative territory and some considered the Spanish immigration as a menace to their lifestyles and culture. It has a more radical base than the catalonian one.

If I'm not mistaken, the catalonian one has always have a bigger economical background than the basque one, yet still have some cultural elements. Historically, Catalonia has identified more with Europe than with Spain.

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#76

Posted 28 April 2014 - 01:42 PM

I see no problem in teaching children about their language and culture and I think it's very important to keep small, yet distinct cultures like this alive. I don't know enough about the situation to say whether I think they should secede, but I think they should at least be allowed to decide for themselves. 

 

Southland: I can't tell from your posts if you support Catalonian nationalism or if you are against it? How different is the situation between Catalonian and Basque nationalism? From my understanding, Basque is more distinct from Spanish and it's supporters are more popular and extreme? That said, I know very little details about the situation.

The Basque language is a language isolate which doesn't have anything in common with the Spanish language, whereas Catalan has quite a lot in common with Spanish and French, so culturally and educationally the Basque region probably differs more from Spain than Catalonia does.

 

And you're probably right with regards to the Basque movement being more popular among the people, most of the major political parties in the Basque Country are nationalist and proudly so, and they also have a presence in the regional government of Navarre, and in some districts of France. The more militant and radical arms of the Catalan movement are also not as famous or popular as ETA, the Basque equivalent, probably because they killed very few people.

 

 

Which is nice and all, but kind of ignores the biggest issue for most Catalan, which is the lack of economic independence. Despite being economically the largest Spanish region it has significantly lower GDP per capita than other comparable areas and very high living costs. The success of the independence movement goes hand in hand with Spanish government economic mismanagement during the recession and the particularly severe effects on the secondary industrial sector which is larger in Catalonia than anywhere else in Spain.

 

Yeah, that's the nail on the head right there. Support for independence was much lower during the boom years, and much of the nationalist rhetoric is accompanied by potshots at the central government.

 

The ability to have your own police force, and to have street signs in your own language, is not at all comparable to any significant degree of economic independence.


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#77

Posted 28 April 2014 - 01:46 PM

Which is nice and all, but kind of ignores the biggest issue for most Catalan, which is the lack of economic independence. Despite being economically the largest Spanish region it has significantly lower GDP per capita than other comparable areas and very high living costs. The success of the independence movement goes hand in hand with Spanish government economic mismanagement during the recession and the particularly severe effects on the secondary industrial sector which is larger in Catalonia than anywhere else in Spain.

 

A lot of big corporations in Catalonia, have said that if Catalonia becomes independent, they are going to move to another place. Plus, the EU said that Catlonia would be out of the Euro Zone if they declare independence... What currency are they going to have?

 

D44DCBC319B9F36910FCC0683834102B.jpg

 

 

 

I see no problem in teaching children about their language and culture and I think it's very important to keep small, yet distinct cultures like this alive. I don't know enough about the situation to say whether I think they should secede, but I think they should at least be allowed to decide for themselves. 

 

Southland: I can't tell from your posts if you support Catalonian nationalism or if you are against it? How different is the situation between Catalonian and Basque nationalism? From my understanding, Basque is more distinct from Spanish and it's supporters are more popular and extreme? That said, I know very little details about the situation.

 

1. I think that teaching kids about their culture and their land in school is totally acceptable. HOWEVER, forcing kids to defend the independence is unacceptable. Kids should decide by themselves what do they think of the independence and why.

 

This is the flag that represents ALL Catalans including myself: bandera-catalan.jpg

 

This flag represents ONLY the Catalans who want independence. bandera_de_cataluna_estelada_postal-r348

 

2. I am a Catalan that doesn't support Independence. Basically because i feel Spanish and Catalan equally and, there is no need to become Independent when we can all sit together and fix some issues.

 

 

The basque one has a more "cultural" background. The basque nationalism mainly began with the arrival of workers of other parts of Spain to the basque territory with the industrialization, which used to be a very traditional and conservative territory and some considered the Spanish immigration as a menace to their lifestyles and culture. It has a more radical base than the catalonian one.

If I'm not mistaken, the catalonian one has always have a bigger economical background than the basque one, yet still have some cultural elements. Historically, Catalonia has identified more with Europe than with Spain.

 

My mom comes from the south of Spain (Extremadura) and she has been called "xarnega" (A disrespectful way to call someone who came from the south of Spain looking for a job)

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#78

Posted 28 April 2014 - 02:08 PM Edited by RoadRunner71, 28 April 2014 - 02:10 PM.

Still, it's more related to the economic side. It's like saying that *instert country here* immigrants come to steal our jobs, just that in this case the immigrants belong to the same country. The original Basque nationalism revolved around race and culture, as consequence of the sociocultural changes the immigration was bringing; the conservative Basque culture saw their traditions jeopardized.


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#79

Posted 28 April 2014 - 02:09 PM

Southland- my understanding was that it wasn't the consideration of alternate currencies for an independent Catalonia or the big business arguments that many Catalans found persuading but the fact that the central Spanish government spent a great deal of money supporting the tertiary banking and service sector with investment to dull the pain of recession, and also invested heavily in agriculture whereas secondary industry like high tech manufacturing and technical support services which represent a larger proportion of jobs in Catalonia than elsewhere in Spain were perceived to be ignored.

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#80

Posted 28 April 2014 - 02:21 PM Edited by SouthLand, 28 April 2014 - 02:23 PM.

Still, it's more related to the economic side. It's like saying that *instert country here* immigrants come to steal our jobs, just that in this case the immigrants belong to the same country. The original Basque nationalism revolved around race and culture, as consequence of the sociocultural changes the immigration was bringing.

 

Yes, in the Basque Country 99% of the people who support independence are because they feel culturally different.

 

In Catalonia 50% of the people who want independence are for cultural matters and 50% for economical

 

 

Southland- my understanding was that it wasn't the consideration of alternate currencies for an independent Catalonia or the big business arguments that many Catalans found persuading but the fact that the central Spanish government spent a great deal of money supporting the tertiary banking and service sector with investment to dull the pain of recession, and also invested heavily in agriculture whereas secondary industry like high tech manufacturing and technical support services which represent a larger proportion of jobs in Catalonia than elsewhere in Spain were perceived to be ignored.

 

Sorry. I didn't understand you well.

 

I agree, to some extent but, let's focus on something here, imagine you are given 1,000,000$ to fix you house... You are going to fix the most important things first and finally the least. Same happens with Spain, the government decided to invest money on the "poorer" areas first and try to adapt them to the XXI century and they did.

 

-Thing is, that while Catalan politics cry about how Spain steals, the Catalan government is stealing a lot of money from the Catalans. For example, the government of Catalonia asked Spain if they could build a highway and Spain said yes. The highway is already paid but, the Catalan Government refuses to give up the concession to the business that build the Highway and therefore the toll prices are very high.

 

-Catalonia has a public TV station called "TV3" that all catalans pay with their taxes and this station has six channels... SIX CHANNELS for a region of 7.000.000 people they are INSANE!

This are the Channles TV3 has:

TV3

TV3HD
33/Super3
Esport 3
3/24
TV3CAT

 

And while the administration of Artur Mas is doing economical reforms and destroying our health system, the Catalan Goverment spends money on buying new studio for the news channel and giving money to villages in Africa so they can learn Catalan.

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#81

Posted 28 April 2014 - 02:54 PM

But Catalonia has the highest regional GDP in Spain. Economically, it's the most important region. I do find it a bit strange that the Spanish government gave what appeared to be preferential treatment to olive farmers in Andalusia with significant economic subsidies whilst largely ignoring the second largest element of the largest regional economy in Spain.

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#82

Posted 28 April 2014 - 03:13 PM

But Catalonia has the highest regional GDP in Spain. Economically, it's the most important region. I do find it a bit strange that the Spanish government gave what appeared to be preferential treatment to olive farmers in Andalusia with significant economic subsidies whilst largely ignoring the second largest element of the largest regional economy in Spain.

 

Okay. But that is not a reason to secede. Catalans think that if they secede they are going to become the "Switzerland of the Mediterranean" A lot of counties are not going to let that happen.

 

Plus, i can tell you that Catalonia is one of the most corrupt areas in Spain.

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#83

Posted 28 April 2014 - 03:37 PM

 

But Catalonia has the highest regional GDP in Spain. Economically, it's the most important region. I do find it a bit strange that the Spanish government gave what appeared to be preferential treatment to olive farmers in Andalusia with significant economic subsidies whilst largely ignoring the second largest element of the largest regional economy in Spain.

 

Okay. But that is not a reason to secede. Catalans think that if they secede they are going to become the "Switzerland of the Mediterranean" A lot of counties are not going to let that happen.

 

Plus, i can tell you that Catalonia is one of the most corrupt areas in Spain.

 

Do you have any facts to support either of your points? Which countries would stand in the way of an independent Catalonia and why? And how do you know that Catalonia is any more corrupt than Extremadura, Madrid, Murcia, or any of the other regions?

 

Just to clarify, I want actual evidence in answer to my last question -- surveys and statistics, not just anecdotes.


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#84

Posted 28 April 2014 - 03:49 PM

 

 

But Catalonia has the highest regional GDP in Spain. Economically, it's the most important region. I do find it a bit strange that the Spanish government gave what appeared to be preferential treatment to olive farmers in Andalusia with significant economic subsidies whilst largely ignoring the second largest element of the largest regional economy in Spain.

 

Okay. But that is not a reason to secede. Catalans think that if they secede they are going to become the "Switzerland of the Mediterranean" A lot of counties are not going to let that happen.

 

Plus, i can tell you that Catalonia is one of the most corrupt areas in Spain.

 

Do you have any facts to support either of your points? Which countries would stand in the way of an independent Catalonia and why? And how do you know that Catalonia is any more corrupt than Extremadura, Madrid, Murcia, or any of the other regions?

 

Just to clarify, I want actual evidence in answer to my last question -- surveys and statistics, not just anecdotes.

 

 

 

Can you read Spanish? If so, I can show you different articles that make my point clear.


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#85

Posted 28 April 2014 - 03:56 PM Edited by Josh, 28 April 2014 - 04:13 PM.

Yes I can and I'd be very interested in viewing some articles on the subjects that I mentioned.

 

EDIT: Removed massive quote-train.


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#86

Posted 28 April 2014 - 04:48 PM Edited by Stephan90, 28 April 2014 - 04:51 PM.

 

The European "Elites" want a European superstate. But in fact, with their politics they are even destroying the social cohesion in the existing countries. I support Catalonias independence. Or at least it makes me angry that the Spanish government is deniying Catalonia a referendum.

 

Do you also support Bavaria's independence? ;)

 

Bavaria is the most prosperous state in Germany. They speak a strong dialect. Sometimes when I go to work at BMW, some people seem to speek another language. And there is a really small, regional party that wants independence from Germany.

 

Sure, they could have referendum but they would never vote against Germany because: Bavaria was never oppressed by the central government. The economical situation in Bavaria has been constantly on a good level in the last decades. Bavaria has the strongest voice of all states in the federal government through the CSU party. They can speak their dialect and write in high German.


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#87

Posted 29 April 2014 - 10:37 AM

Yes I can and I'd be very interested in viewing some articles on the subjects that I mentioned.

 

EDIT: Removed massive quote-train.

 

Okay buddy you are going to have a lot of work to do:

 

Everything is in Spanish

 

Articles about the corruption involving CIU (The political party that runs Catalonia with Artur Mas as it's president)

 

(All sources involve right wing press and left wing press)

 

- http://es.wikipedia....iki/Caso_Millet ( Wikipedia)

 

-http://www.publico.e...converge-en-ciu

 

-http://www.elconfide...ubierto--118825

 

-http://www.lamarea.c...ndependentista/

 

-http://www.abc.es/es...1312302027.html

 

-http://www.larazon.e...no#.U199Z6KvhGQ

 

-http://www.elconfide...eranista-120773

 

 

Articles about the how the Generalitat (Catalan government) gives away money to stupid organizations in recession times.

 

 

- http://www.hispaniai...s-separatistas/

 

- http://www.larazon.e...ra#.U19_jqKvhGQ

 

- http://www.gaceta.es...lleres-sexuales

 

- http://www.lavozlibr...alana-de-dardos

 

- http://www.lavozlibr...braran-en-julio

 

- http://www.teinteres..._780524077.html

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sivispacem
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#88

Posted 29 April 2014 - 10:56 AM

I don't mean to be rude, but do you have anything from a source that's not mass media? Like perhaps an academic study, or an EU fact-finding mission, or a Spanish government reports, or statistics from one of the Spanish quangos or NGOs that look into that kind of thing.

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#89

Posted 29 April 2014 - 02:32 PM

OK to put it bluntly I'm not very impressed with your sources. You've provided me with lots of newspaper 'shock' stories about how the Catalan government spends €156,139 on 'advertising abortions and sex workshops' and how the darts team gets €1.2million. I just thought I'd say that both of those sums are outrageously small in comparison to the €16.5billion fiscal deficit that Catalonia runs under and are therefore just shock stories designed to turn the Spanish speakers of Catalonia against their leaders.

 

You've provided a lot of reports from very politically conservative newspapers, which wasn't what I asked for at all.

 

To reiterate, I asked for proof, in the form of a survey or a report, that Catalonia was any more corrupt than say Valencia, the Balearic Islands, or any other area of Spain. I also asked for proof (which I doubt you'll find in Spanish or in English) that Catalonia would be kept out of Europe by countries other than Spain. From the research that I've done it's pretty clear that there would be very little to stop Catalonia from gaining many of the benefits of EU membership without actually being in the EU, and that there is very little that the Spanish government can do to prevent Catalans from taking advantage of the Schengen agreement.

 

Of course, the reason why I sit on the fence with regards to Catalan independence is mainly due to their massive debt levels -- it's not difficult to foresee a Catalan state that is born in a situation similar to Greece's situation.

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#90

Posted 30 April 2014 - 09:16 AM Edited by Palikari, 30 April 2014 - 09:34 AM.

You've provided a lot of reports from very politically conservative newspapers, which wasn't what I asked for at all.

Most of those newspapers aren't conservative at all: Público is far-left, El Confidencial is centrist, La Marea is left-wing, ABC and La Razón are center-right, La Gaceta is right-wing, La Voz Libre is center-left and Te Interesa is centrist.

 

So very politically conservative?

 

I also asked for proof (which I doubt you'll find in Spanish or in English) that Catalonia would be kept out of Europe by countries other than Spain. From the research that I've done it's pretty clear that there would be very little to stop Catalonia from gaining many of the benefits of EU membership without actually being in the EU, and that there is very little that the Spanish government can do to prevent Catalans from taking advantage of the Schengen agreement.

 

If Catalonia became independent, it would be out of the EU authomatically. The Treaties (TEU, TFEU...) would not be applied on Catalonia, because the Agreements have been done by the Government of Spain and the EU, not the Catalan government. This is what EU leaders such as Durao Barroso have said many times, and also it's in the Treaties; read articles 4.2, 49 and 52 of the TEU. 

 

Why would the EU give benefits to a non-EU state who voluntarily left the EU secceding?

 

Decissions in the EU are take UNANIMOUSLY. So if Catalonia became independent and all EU countries agreed that Catalonia gets the benefits without being in the EU and/or that Catalonia should enter the EU (*), if Spain doesn't agree, if Spain says "no", it's NO.

 

(*) Something almost impossible, given that many EU countries also have separatist problems.

 

So all would be in Spanish hands!





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