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Why a female protagonist doesn't fit in GTA (debunked)

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Fortress
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#61

Posted 14 May 2014 - 02:16 AM

What is the difference? That men are the type of people who do all the dirty stuff and women sit at home? You do know there's women who do crime and stuff, right? I pointed that out in an example in the OP.

 

You're not understanding me.

 

 

I'm not saying there are factual differences. That isn't what the problem is.


universetwisters
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#62

Posted 14 May 2014 - 02:18 AM

 

What is the difference? That men are the type of people who do all the dirty stuff and women sit at home? You do know there's women who do crime and stuff, right? I pointed that out in an example in the OP.

 

You're not understanding me.

 

 

I'm not saying there are factual differences. That isn't what the problem is.

 

Alright then, so which part aren't I understanding? That GTA isn't the game to test a female protagonist on? So far that seems to be the jist of what you're saying.


Fortress
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#63

Posted 14 May 2014 - 02:29 AM

 

 

What is the difference? That men are the type of people who do all the dirty stuff and women sit at home? You do know there's women who do crime and stuff, right? I pointed that out in an example in the OP.

 

You're not understanding me.

 

 

I'm not saying there are factual differences. That isn't what the problem is.

 

Alright then, so which part aren't I understanding? That GTA isn't the game to test a female protagonist on? So far that seems to be the jist of what you're saying.

 

 

the problem lies in the general audience.


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#64

Posted 14 May 2014 - 02:32 AM

 

 

 

What is the difference? That men are the type of people who do all the dirty stuff and women sit at home? You do know there's women who do crime and stuff, right? I pointed that out in an example in the OP.

 

You're not understanding me.

 

 

I'm not saying there are factual differences. That isn't what the problem is.

 

Alright then, so which part aren't I understanding? That GTA isn't the game to test a female protagonist on? So far that seems to be the jist of what you're saying.

 

 

the problem lies in the general audience.

 

 

The general audience who, for the most part, has been accepting of the other protagonist choices? The general audience who make female avatars for GTA Online? 


Fortress
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#65

Posted 14 May 2014 - 04:37 AM

 

 

 

 

What is the difference? That men are the type of people who do all the dirty stuff and women sit at home? You do know there's women who do crime and stuff, right? I pointed that out in an example in the OP.

 

You're not understanding me.

 

 

I'm not saying there are factual differences. That isn't what the problem is.

 

Alright then, so which part aren't I understanding? That GTA isn't the game to test a female protagonist on? So far that seems to be the jist of what you're saying.

 

 

the problem lies in the general audience.

 

 

The general audience who, for the most part, has been accepting of the other protagonist choices? The general audience who make female avatars for GTA Online? 

 

 

And how many female avatars are there, exactly, compared to the number of male avatars?


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#66

Posted 14 May 2014 - 05:39 AM

The number of Female character is GTAO is actually pretty high, Atleast from what I have seen. 

 

I've always believed that if there were to ever be a female protagonist in GTA it really has to be done right. I'm positive Rockstar could pull it off. 


B Dawg
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#67

Posted 14 May 2014 - 02:18 PM

the problem lies in the general audience.

Yea well f*ck em :p them and their sh*tty complaints at GTA IV and all. Give us a bank robbing Catalina like character :p


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#68

Posted 14 May 2014 - 02:23 PM

why would you want to play as the weaker sex.


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#69

Posted 14 May 2014 - 05:47 PM

I haven't done any research about this, but does anyone know if Rockstar has any female writers?

 

I've heard many times that a lot of men have difficulty writing believable female characters (and vise versa for women having difficulty writing believable male characters). There's got to be some truth to that.


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#70

Posted 14 May 2014 - 08:03 PM

I haven't done any research about this, but does anyone know if Rockstar has any female writers?

 

I've heard many times that a lot of men have difficulty writing believable female characters (and vise versa for women having difficulty writing believable male characters). There's got to be some truth to that.

So you hire women?


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#71

Posted 14 May 2014 - 10:42 PM

 

I haven't done any research about this, but does anyone know if Rockstar has any female writers?

 

I've heard many times that a lot of men have difficulty writing believable female characters (and vise versa for women having difficulty writing believable male characters). There's got to be some truth to that.

So you hire women?

 

 

I know for TLAD, Rockstar talked to a bunch of bikers and cops that dealt with them.


chrisscorsese88
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#72

Posted 14 May 2014 - 10:47 PM

why would you want to play as the weaker sex.

 

All human beings are created equal, calling women "the weaker sex" is sexist.


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#73

Posted 14 May 2014 - 10:59 PM

 

why would you want to play as the weaker sex.

 

All human beings are created equal, calling women "the weaker sex" is sexist.

 

 

but

 


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#74

Posted 14 May 2014 - 11:02 PM

I really wish you would use constructive arguments rather than silly stuff like that.


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#75

Posted 14 May 2014 - 11:11 PM Edited by Blennerville, 14 May 2014 - 11:16 PM.

ok, women cant take punches as well as men - so it just wouldnt make sense to play as one in GTA - fighting against men.


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#76

Posted 14 May 2014 - 11:16 PM

Are you kidding? I've seen plenty of women who can take men. I realize not every single female is a bodybuilder, but to generalize that females cannot take on men is hilarious and naive. Fighting has to do with skill, not genetics.  ;)


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#77

Posted 15 May 2014 - 12:06 AM

My ex beat up a guy pretty good. He had a black eye and everything.

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#78

Posted 15 May 2014 - 12:32 PM Edited by Blennerville, 15 May 2014 - 12:33 PM.

why is there one league for women and another for men, why dont women boxers/fighters compete with the mens - because they would get destroyed, they cannot compete with men (in the vast majority of situations, sports etc..)

Im sorry if some people cant accept this, but that doesnt change the fact that men are much stronger than women (accept in cases where you have a nancy boy against a big tomboy)

 

A female lead character just wouldnt work in GTA unless, they changed the game a bit to accommodate for it (bad idea imo, R* would mess it up and you all would be complaining), or the game went very wacky like Saints row (which also wouldnt be good), or if they let you design your own character.


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#79

Posted 15 May 2014 - 12:47 PM

Haven't you played Metroid or Tomb Raider? Those female protagonists have killed plenty of males in their respective canon story lines as well as other-worldly creatures. I know I'm comparing apples to oranges here, but the fact remains that it all depends on the person, and if Rockstar created the right female protagonist for their game, it will work no doubt.


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#80

Posted 15 May 2014 - 09:46 PM

why is there one league for women and another for men, why dont women boxers/fighters compete with the mens - because they would get destroyed, they cannot compete with men (in the vast majority of situations, sports etc..)

Im sorry if some people cant accept this, but that doesnt change the fact that men are much stronger than women (accept in cases where you have a nancy boy against a big tomboy)

 

It seems like you're nitpicking with that. When I ran track and did competitive swimming, I swam against girls too.


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#81

Posted 24 May 2014 - 12:44 AM Edited by Dark Bordeus, 24 May 2014 - 12:57 AM.

 
Gameplay of female protag

 

With the points you mentioned, a female protag could theoretically work but it's still not likely to make it due to lack of immersion. Women can rob banks, but a bank robbery led by women will never be as rough-and-tough as a male centered bank robbery. Female robbery. Male robbery.

Women can commit crimes, as you mentioned in your opening post. But it's not a matter of black-and-white "can and cannot"...what is the magnitude of the crimes they can commit? Look at the article yu posted. Small time stuff.
Look at what Catalina did in "small town bank"...just that. A small town bank, a kiddie robbery.
 
Can you imagine a woman doing the Union Depository mission? Can you imagine a woman holding a mini-gun and raging it across a parking lot full of cops?
 
It'd give everything a very chessy and childish feel. It'd take GTA into a Saints Row type of direction that would look odd and just kill the immersion completely. If a female protag was in the game, she'd probably have the most boring missions in the game. 

Look at all these missions in GTA, like "Mr. Phillips" where Trevor assaults a biker camp with his shotgun. A woman just wouldn't work in that setting. The image is not something we can get used to. In Online, it is different. Online has a very unrealistic, tongue-in-cheek, harmless fun approach to it anyway. And most people play female characters because to stare at a female ass instead of a male one while playing the game.

 

Can you imagine Black Project, Three Leaf Clover, Paleto Score, or any good high-profile GTA mission being done by a woman? No.

Even with the 3-protag structure, the woman would always have the most boring role.
The men would be in the heat of it, doing the grunt work in the major shootout. She'd be sniping at the back. She'd be flying the chopper waiting for extraction. She'd by providing reconnaissance with binoculars. She'd be hacking sh*t.



 
Story/narrative of female protag
 
Another challenge. GTA is about the world of crime and the world of crime is a world ruled by men. All the male protags in GTA have filled commoner roles in the crime world and this was enough to keep this interesting.

Tommy- mafia hitman
CJ- ghetto gangbanger
Niko- hired gun
Mike- Bank robber
Trevor- drug dealer
Franklin- gangbanger, and repo muscle
 
These are all generic, common, "average joe" archetypes for men in the crime genre. They keep the story realistic and connections with the character realistic because the character is not some magical 1-in-a-million wonderboy.
 
Now look at generic female roles in the crime genre. Stripper, prostitute, or trophy wife of a rich bastard. How do you write a compelling story about these roles? How do you make it interesting? And how do you incorporate it with GTA gameplay (driving and shooting)

All the male criminal archetypes mentioned above fit perfectly into the driving+shooting that the series is built upon.
 
To give the character any interest, they'd have to give her a position that is as interesting as the positions that men are given to by default. But this would make her the magical 1-in-a-million wundergirl type character. Like the Dovahkin of GTA6. A woman bank robber? A woman hitman? It's doable, but is it realistic? No. It'd inevitably feel shoehorned and give the story and incredibly cheesy and corny veneer.
 
A woman, who just so happens to have incredible physical resilience and that she can boost herself out of stripping and whoring and become a mafia Hitwoman. Dafuq.
 
Or they could take her in the direction of the incredibly cliche attractive, sexy, female assassin. The type that  poisons her lipstick and kisses men to kill them, or has blades hidden in her high heels. Give her a James Bond type feel
 
It just doesn't work, nor fit with GTA.
 
 
Not to mention negative press...

You can never please the feminists. First they will complain that there are no female protags, and when R* puts one in they will say that she is "a digusting, vile, woman who is a whore that kills for money" even though ALL gta protags are criminal scumbags.
 
Just like every character in the world of GTA, and every protagonist, she will have to be a morally despicable criminal. She will be a c*nt, a whore, a bitch, a criminal scumbag.

 

They'd want a woman in the game that was the type to dance with deers in the forest and make tea for rabbits. They'd want the woman to be smart, calculated, sassy, tasteful, and politically correct...something that violates everything GTA is about.

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#82

Posted 24 May 2014 - 01:08 AM

 

But it's not a matter of black-and-white "can and cannot"...what is the magnitude of the crimes they can commit? Look at the article yu posted. Small time stuff.

Look at what Catalina did in "small town bank"...just that. A small town bank, a kiddie robbery.

 

Did you read through the rest of my post with real life examples, such as Bonnie & Clyde and Griselda Blanco? I wouldn't say those are all small time.

 

 

It'd give everything a very chessy and childish feel. It'd take GTA into a Saints Row type of direction that would look odd and just kill the immersion completely. If a female protag was in the game, she'd probably have the most boring missions in the game. 

 

You're making the implication the GTA series isn't already going in that direction. Trevor was thrown in there just to be the "crazy guy", Luis was just the guy who blindly did what people told him to do, and so forth.

 

 

Look at all these missions in GTA, like "Mr. Phillips" where Trevor assaults a biker camp with his shotgun. A woman just wouldn't work in that setting. 

 

How can it not work? You also mention later in that post something about "an image". Is that image what's keeping you from seeing the points? Try to read with an open mind next time, as opposed to referring to cliches in films.

 

And at that point, I just stopped reading. Your arguments either had to do with not being able to "picture" a female criminal due to what you've seen in films, or about how "cheesy" it would look even though you mentioned "holding a mini-gun and raging it across a parking lot full of cops" and somehow, it's more realistic if a guy does it rather than a woman doing it.

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Dark Bordeus
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#83

Posted 24 May 2014 - 02:12 AM Edited by Dark Bordeus, 24 May 2014 - 02:17 AM.

 

But it's not a matter of black-and-white "can and cannot"...what is the magnitude of the crimes they can commit? Look at the article yu posted. Small time stuff.
Look at what Catalina did in "small town bank"...just that. A small town bank, a kiddie robbery.

 
Did you read through the rest of my post with real life examples, such as Bonnie & Clyde and Griselda Blanco? I wouldn't say those are all small time.

 


The Griselda Blanco example is thrown around here a lot and is hardly valid. That's why I flat out ignored it. And Catherine Williamson is the wussified-version of bank robberies.

 

Griselda is just a real-life Elizabeta. A drug lord, but someone who pulls strings and oversees operations. If GTA was a micromanagement drug empire game like this then she'd work. But can you imagine her storming hideouts, attacking camps, robbing banks, and all that stuff? No. She'd hire men to do the brute work, just as Elizabeta hired Niko to run her drugs instead of doing it herself. She's an overseer.

 

 

 

 

It'd give everything a very chessy and childish feel. It'd take GTA into a Saints Row type of direction that would look odd and just kill the immersion completely. If a female protag was in the game, she'd probably have the most boring missions in the game. 

 

You're making the implication the GTA series isn't already going in that direction. Trevor was thrown in there just to be the "crazy guy", Luis was just the guy who blindly did what people told him to do, and so forth.

 

It's not about personality. It's about the role itself. Niko was the most emotional and morally grounded protag, but still a gun for hire.

 

Luis was a henchman. Trevor was a drug dealer.

 

These are very realistic roles in the world of crime and the men who played them could actually play them in real life.

 

A female Mafia hitman, hired gun, or brutish drug dealer (not the Elizabeta type, the Trevor type, a drug dealer who does the dirty work himself) as a woman? It's incredibly unrealistic and it'd look odd.

 

Read the point again, and again. As many times as you need to understand it.

 

Elaborate on what you mean when you say "and so forth"

 


How can it not work? You also mention later in that post something about "an image". Is that image what's keeping you from seeing the points? Try to read with an open mind next time, as opposed to referring to cliches in films.

 

And at that point, I just stopped reading. Your arguments either had to do with not being able to "picture" a female criminal due to what you've seen in films, or about how "cheesy" it would look even though you mentioned "holding a mini-gun and raging it across a parking lot full of cops" and somehow, it's more realistic if a guy does it rather than a woman doing it.

 

 

Oh look, you oversimplified my argument and then pretended to invalidate it due to your own misinterpretations of it. Actually try to understand what it is saying.

 

 

it's more realistic if a guy does it rather than a woman doing it.

 

 

Look at a bunch of real-life bambambam shootouts. Like the North Hollywood Shootout, blasting a minigun across a parking lot is exaggerated obviously for cinematic purposes...but its not too far from cops-and-robber shootouts that do occur. These shootouts do exist, and are 99.99% only been able to be performed by men.

 

You failed to understand everything in my post. Ask yourself, when was the last time you saw a woman in a video game engaging in giant-as-f*ck firefights that wasn't 1) a fantasy game 2) a joke game like Saints Row

 

A woman doing a badass high-octane shootout that looks like a AAA action movie just wouldn't work. As I mentioned, the female protag would be confined to the laid-back missions and roles.

 

>The men would be in the heat of it, doing the grunt work in the major shootout.

She'd be sniping at the back. She'd be flying the chopper waiting for extraction.

She'd by providing reconnaissance with binoculars. She'd be hacking sh*t.

 

 

A woman protag could work, but it wouldn't work well. Not in a game like this.


But I don't want this to turn into a blind-as-sh*t argument like the 10 yr olds on this forum get into. I think we're above that.
So, to further this dicussion without turning it into an argument I present you with the following idea:

 

Write up a hypothetical GTA game with a female protag. Give us her name, who she is, what she does. What would her place in the story be. How would the missions play out.

 


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#84

Posted 24 May 2014 - 02:25 AM

 

But can you imagine her storming hideouts, attacking camps, robbing banks, and all that stuff? No. She'd hire men to do the brute work, just as Elizabeta hired Niko to run her drugs instead of doing it herself.

Considering that point, why didn't Tommy hire people to do his work once he got to power in Vice City? He had all those guys under him and he doesn't use them once.

 

 

Oh look, you oversimplified my argument and then pretended to invalidate it due to your own misinterpretations of it. Actually try to understand what it is saying.

 

Ever think about doing that yourself? Literally every thing you mentioned after that was one of what I said, either stating that it was "cheesy" or "wouldnt fit GTA"

 

 

Look at a bunch of real-life head on shootouts. Like the North Hollywood Shootout, blasting a minigun across a parking lot is exaggerated obviously for cinematic purposes...but its not too far from cops-and-robber shootouts that do occur. These shootouts do exist, and are 99.99% only been able to be performed by men.

 

99.99%? Are those actual numbers or are they pulled out of the air?

 

 

But I don't want this to turn into a blind-as-sh*t argument like the 10 yr olds on this forum get into. I think we're above that.

 

Don't you think you're doing that too? "I don't think it would fit because it would make GTA cheesy" while you have a drug junkie flying a biplane into a cargo jet. "It wouldn't fit GTA" when you have protagonists who are actually reluctant to commit crime, as opposed to willing to do it.

 

That being said, considering your statement "A woman doing a badass high-octane shootout that looks like a AAA action movie just wouldn't work", is that a fact or your opinion? And if the latter, is it because you didn't see female protagonists in video games before? If I recall, Rockstar's known for taking risks and doing things other game companies wouldn't think of doing (or at least they used to). If they could do all that and still make GTA unique, what makes you think rockstar can't do a female protagonist that, in the bold case you identified, did Franklin-esque "laid back missions"? What's keeping you from opening your mind to new ideas?

 

 

Write up a hypothetical GTA game with a female protag. Give us her name, who she is, what she does. What would her place in the story be. How would the missions play out.

 

I've actually been doing something like that for another game project. Without delving into the details, it focuses on her and her ragtag bunch of friends who grew up watching too many movies and playing too many video games raising hell in their small town, somewhat of a mix of "New Kids" with hints of "Ghosts/Aliens" and "Real Ultimate Power". And before you dismiss it as a "joke game" (which I fail to see from a series that's as popular as it is, despite how much I dislike it), keep in mind it doesn't fit your criteria all the way because it isn't GTA.


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#85

Posted 24 May 2014 - 02:54 AM Edited by Dark Bordeus, 24 May 2014 - 02:56 AM.

*removing all other quotes for aforementioned reasons of not wanting to turn this into another one of those back-and-forth multi-quote arguments that last multiple pages and accomplish nothing*

 

 

 

I've actually been doing something like that for another game project. Without delving into the details, it focuses on her and her ragtag bunch of friends who grew up watching too many movies and playing too many video games raising hell in their small town, somewhat of a mix of "New Kids" with hints of "Ghosts/Aliens" and "Real Ultimate Power". And before you dismiss it as a "joke game" (which I fail to see from a series that's as popular as it is, despite how much I dislike it), keep in mind it doesn't fit your criteria all the way because it isn't GTA.

 

 

Well, best of luck with your game project but that's not what I am on about right now. Just to take this into a more productive direction, I want to avoid the catfight style argument and go into the intelligent discourse that I know we both are capable of.

 

Put yourself in the shoes of a godlike creator who is making GTA 6. Don't reference your other project. Give me a head-on description of the next GTA game which you are the godlike producer on.

 

Tell me everything you can about the female character. You claim that it could work, so demonstrate it.

Give us her name, who she is, what she does. What would her place in the story be. How would the missions play out. What her plotline would be.

 

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#86

Posted 24 May 2014 - 03:09 AM

*removing all other quotes for aforementioned reasons of not wanting to turn this into another one of those back-and-forth multi-quote arguments that last multiple pages and accomplish nothing*

 

 

 

I've actually been doing something like that for another game project. Without delving into the details, it focuses on her and her ragtag bunch of friends who grew up watching too many movies and playing too many video games raising hell in their small town, somewhat of a mix of "New Kids" with hints of "Ghosts/Aliens" and "Real Ultimate Power". And before you dismiss it as a "joke game" (which I fail to see from a series that's as popular as it is, despite how much I dislike it), keep in mind it doesn't fit your criteria all the way because it isn't GTA.

 

 

Well, best of luck with your game project but that's not what I am on about right now. Just to take this into a more productive direction, I want to avoid the catfight style argument and go into the intelligent discourse that I know we both are capable of.

 

Put yourself in the shoes of a godlike creator who is making GTA 6. Don't reference your other project. Give me a head-on description of the next GTA game which you are the godlike producer on.

 

Tell me everything you can about the female character. You claim that it could work, so demonstrate it.

Give us her name, who she is, what she does. What would her place in the story be. How would the missions play out. What her plotline would be.

 

 

I can tell you more through PM if you're really interested. But you gotta keep in mind it isn't a GTA game. The only things they really have in common are that they're open world and have criminal elements. The crime in GTA comes from criminal motives be it wealth, power, etc. whereas in my project, it comes from small town boredom/playing too much video games and the bulk of the crimes you commit are stuff like drug dealing, street racing, and other antisocial activities. It wouldn't be like comparing apples to oranges, but more like granny smith apples to mcintosh apples.


Dark Bordeus
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#87

Posted 24 May 2014 - 01:12 PM Edited by Dark Bordeus, 24 May 2014 - 01:13 PM.

Are you even reading my posts? I'm asking you to write up a female character for GTA 6, not tell me about your already existing game character.

Is English not your first language? Or is reading comprehension just a "thing" for you?

 

 

 

Put yourself in the shoes of a godlike creator who is making GTA 6. Don't reference your other project. Give me a head-on description of the next GTA game which you are the godlike producer on.

 

Tell me everything you can about the female character. You claim that it could work, so demonstrate it.

Give us her name, who she is, what she does. What would her place in the story be. How would the missions play out. What her plotline would be.

 


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#88

Posted 24 May 2014 - 04:18 PM Edited by universetwisters, 24 May 2014 - 04:40 PM.

I didn't know how specific or so you were being. How would you write one?

 

And to be fair, you didn't put "don't reference your project" until after I posted mine. Now isn't that a bit silly?


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#89

Posted 24 May 2014 - 04:37 PM

Dark Bordeus, I think you're really over-thinking this. universetwisters does not work for Rockstar, and hypothetically no matter what answer he gave you, it would be different than what the writers at Rockstar would give you. I personally cannot think of a good background/story for a female protagonist in a future GTA, but that doesn't mean Rockstar aren't creative enough to think of something that works themselves. If Rockstar wants to eventually include a female protagonist, it will work, and if they don't want to, then you have nothing to worry about.  :p

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#90

Posted 24 May 2014 - 05:26 PM

While I disagree with the 'female protagonists can't work' bullsh*t, I do agree that it would be unrealistic if a woman performed the minigun section of the Paletto Bay heist.

 

I'm an average sized woman, 5'7'', roughly 150 pounds, but let's face it: There is NO way I could put on that absurdly heavy body armor and tote around a gun that probably weighed at least 80 pounds. I'd be totally exhausted after only a couple of seconds, and I'd probably end up knocking myself over.

 

However, I think it's safe to assume that most men wouldn't last too long doing that either. I guess what I'm trying to say is anything that would require tons of brute strength couldn't be done by most women. However, it does not take tons of brute strength to use a shotgun, so there's no reason why a female protagonist couldn't do a shootout mission like 'Mr. Phillips.'

 

 

Stuff like the Paletto Bay heist, while fun, are completely unrealistic.

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