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Billy > Johnny

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Drunken Cowboy
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#31

Posted 17 April 2014 - 08:26 AM

I agree with chainsoar.

LancerG2
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#32

Posted 21 April 2014 - 08:49 AM

And I was seconds...

 

Too late.


Mein
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#33

Posted 25 April 2014 - 01:22 AM

You realise, of course, that Billy Grey was an unpredictable loud mouthed racist bigot who never got his drug habit under control and repeatedly dragged his unwilling 'brothers' into fights of his own making by screaming at them about 'loyalty' while failing to do absolutely anything of value for them in return, ever?

 

Right?

^^^ The most accurate post on here by far lol.

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aquahaze2
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#34

Posted 25 April 2014 - 04:10 PM

Really good points and I personally think billy was a better leader then jhonny to.....for the moment at least

See after reading this I was reminded of 2 other leaders, Hitler and his opponent. Hitler was a great leader and made Germany a "respectable" country again but only though means that would later destroy it, while his opponent realized that there was no easy way out and that they had to re build from the ground up over a long period of time witch dosent sound to to appealing.

Now the guy who posted this pretty much f*cked up his whole argument by getting mad and making stupid points but if you look at the original points they are for the most part true, even some of the ones posted out of rage make sense depending on how you look at it. Billy was greedy and fighting with everybody not doing any good for the club at all, but if he would have killed every AOD, triad, and mobster that wanted to kill him the Lost would have been as big as grove street from the 3-D universe. As unlikely as it sounds it was a all or nothing deal (kind of like hitler) while johnny was alot smarter with things making truces and not ripping everyone off in the process. He ripped ray of but ray was to stupid to not be killed in the end, you cant f*ck a mans girl, disrespect him to his face then make a totally honest business deal, its why he couldn't move up though the ranks of his family, and why people were opposed to him being so high up to begin with, he was actually a lot like billy.

In the end Johnny was a better leader in the long run but billy had the chance to be the greatest gang leader gta had ever seen and maybe if Johnny wanted to help take the risk they could have pulled it off. If you look at gta v the thing that made the most sense dident always turn out as the best choice, it was a all or nothing situation but they pulled it off (ending C) and maybe the lost could have to if billy would listen to reason, Johnny would have complied even if he dident agree as seen in the very mission.

So it depends on how you look at it, jhonny was either holding the club back or keeping it from being totally destroy while doing both at the same time, of course this all changes if you believe that Jim is alive and was the one who was talking to the F.I.B witch makes hella sense......
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aquahaze2
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#35

Posted 25 April 2014 - 04:18 PM

Also just as a final fact billy wasn't a bigot or racist since Johnny is at VP and clay is a Road Captain and Jim is treasurer, however Brian is secretary and was the only member definitely put in to position by Billy himself and there only 3 minorities in the gang (witch has obviously changed in gta v)its possible but you also have to remember that Jhonny,Michael (jhonnys brother), and billy were all childhood friends
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Orto_Dogge
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#36

Posted 25 April 2014 - 04:25 PM

Now the guy who posted this pretty much f*cked up his whole argument by getting mad and making stupid points

 

You f*cked up your whole post (which is pretty cool, by the way) by insulting me for no reason. Where exactly did I get mad or make stupid points?

 

Also, your point about Ray is pretty unaccurate. Johnny was always the one, who disrespects people in face, especially the ones who were kind to him, like Ray or Stubbs. Look at the final mission cutscene and his manners with Thomas Stubbs, who arrived in his clubhouse to help him out. The same goes for Johnny's relationships with Ray, where Ray always tried to help him in some way. Million for one mission is pretty good reward even by GTA standarts.


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#37

Posted 25 April 2014 - 04:35 PM

While I think you can blame Johnny for a lot of things, I don't think the civil war's one of them. Brian was under the impression Johnny had ratted them out. A good chunk of the club sided with him out of loyalty to Billy. There was no way for Johnny to prove his innocence because the record of the conversation he had with the fed was on his phone, but not the content. They fought. Johnny won.

 

Maybe you could argue that from the beginning Johnny should have put more effort into building relationships with the brothers to the point where they'd choose him over Brian, but since that point never gets brought up, there's no reason to believe that would have made much difference.

 

And what did Billy do for his brothers during the events of the game? He only showed genuine interest in his own satisfaction and was willing to sell them out to save his own skin, something Johnny didn't do when given the chance.


 

How? Billy was in prison at the moment. Do you have any proof of that?

Civil War started, because the members of the Lost didn't want Johnny to be the president and he took the title without asking. That's why after "End of Chapter" Johnny says, that the only members left are Jim, Terry, Clay and Angus. Because only his friends support his candidature. Almost all other club members prefer Brian over Johnny.

Second reason for Civil War is Johnny's ignorance.

 

Johnny: Billy started Civil War.

Angus: That doesn't sound very presidential.

Johnny: I'm a president of a bunch of Alderney piss lickers, not the whole nation, so I'll be sounding how I want.

Angus: Just do things right for the brothers and not for your pride.

I don't remember exact words, but here it is. Replay it if you want proofs.

My bad. I mixed up the ending of This sh*t's Cursed with End Of Chapter. But even I would have killed all the asslickers like Brian.

 

During the events of End Of Chapter, Johnny has his own followers (the ones you usually go with during gang wars) and even after the event, there are still Lost members in and around the clubhouse saying 'Johnny! My main man!'

 

That brings another question, what was the Lost's opinion on Johnny's leadership before Clean And Serene?

 

Hard to say. It must have not been too good, since so many were willing to side with a sh*tdick like Brian over their V.P. My guess is that a lot were young and stupid and mistakenly looked up to Billy's recklessness.

This post right here deserves a /thread

You completely proved the topic wrong.


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#38

Posted 25 April 2014 - 09:07 PM

Now the guy who posted this pretty much f*cked up his whole argument by getting mad and making stupid points

 
You f*cked up your whole post (which is pretty cool, by the way) by insulting me for no reason. Where exactly did I get mad or make stupid points?
 
Also, your point about Ray is pretty unaccurate. Johnny was always the one, who disrespects people in face, especially the ones who were kind to him, like Ray or Stubbs. Look at the final mission cutscene and his manners with Thomas Stubbs, who arrived in his clubhouse to help him out. The same goes for Johnny's relationships with Ray, where Ray always tried to help him in some way. Million for one mission is pretty good reward even by GTA standarts.

I was just saying everyone got a little mad and made points that were defending there opinions, pretty much everyone was getting mad and making points that were just a little...off (like saying billy was a rasist or that jhonny/billy was a total piece of sh*t) but I dident mean to come off insulting because that would make me a pretty much a hypocrite lol

Anyway back to this awesome discussion, Jhonny may have been a real dick ti Stubbs but stubbs chose to side with jhonny for the reason that he was honest about everything, where is billy might have been smiles he would have crossed him givin half the chance, and thers the argument that billy was in jail but Stubbs could have pulled some strings and better yet to care of jhonny no problem, but he dident because like alot of people on here he just liked Johnny a little more (and I do mean liked, he trusted jhonny but only did things like tell him about billy and ray because he genuinely liked jhonny for whatever reason)

But the bigger picture is Ray who, in all honesty, probably would have kept his deal good with jhonny,but, him f*cking jhonnys girl, insulting him and his friends, and generally being a dick no one in there right mind would trust him and if you look at gta iv its kinda obvious that Ray was just to power hungry and not smart enough to be where he was. Ray acted like he owned the lost witch is why he sided with jhonny, billy wasent going to be owned by anyone. Not only that but Jhonny wasn't planning to rip of ray, it wasn't till lusie ambushed the deal that jhonny made an impulsive decision to take the money witch wasn't a bad deal seeing as how Ray would be killed by Niko soon but, and they probably could have gotten away with it if Jim dident go in alone ( again 95% that wasn't Jim witchs changes a lot of things). In all reality Ray thought he own Johnny,Niko,The Lost, and pretty much all of Alderney/liberty. Salvatore, playboy, sonny,ten penny all had the same kind of mentally that the were all big enough to do what they wanted when they wanted and even though for the most part Ray was honest, he was to arrogant with people witch is why Irish blooded phil held more respect then him in the family. Its not a question of rather he was honest but if jhonny was dumb for crossing him witch I dont think so. Niko/Luis would have done the same as well every other protagonist (is that the correct term for them?) Except maybe claude and mike (but with the slightest hint that somebody want ray dead he would hesitate, like even a random ped would be enough to convince him to kill anyone). But that's the great thing about gta, or really R*, theres no black and white characters. Just shades of f*cking Gray - officer McReary 2008



..I think
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aquahaze2
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#39

Posted 25 April 2014 - 09:14 PM

Also sorry I read over that and theres a lot of mistakes with spelling and stuff like that, its because im on my phone on a bus and its pretty hard to see what you just typed lol

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#40

Posted 12 May 2014 - 11:59 AM

It's worth noting that the great majority of the Alderney Lost Brotherhood sided with Brian during the civil war; unless Brian proved to be unbelievably convincing at pointing all blames of Billy's incarceration on Johnny, the size of followers on Johnny's side was ridiculously slim compared to the legion protecting Brian.

Then it is shown in Grand Theft Auto V that other members Lost also stood by Billy over Johnny.

 

The point being that aside from Terry, Clay, Jim and Angus, all the Lost bikers seem more in line with Billy Grey's method of leadership than that of Johnny.

Of course aside from the back-story of Johnny negotiating a truce with the Angel of Death, all of Johnny's other actions as club president has lead to unsavory results: weak alliance with the drug trade, diamond fiasco, and culminating in exile from Liberty City to end up as meth junkies on the other side of the country.

 

Makes one wonder if the lifestyle of the One Percenter Lost Motorcycle Club is even fit for Johnny to begin with, as in, shouldn't he have started a club of his own, one that fits with his doctrine?


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#41

Posted 12 May 2014 - 07:05 PM

Details! All the bikers that sided with Billy/Brian were your generic pretty face 'weekend bikers' as Johnny likes to call them. All the hardcore bikers (the ones you lead in Gang Wars), the people who have been there from the start sided with Johnny. Billy, or even The Lost as a whole were changing for the worse. That's my input on it. Regardless of who was the better leader, I still side with Johnny.


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#42

Posted 13 May 2014 - 08:55 AM

All we need now is a Flashback DLC set in either the 60s , 70s , 80s , or heck even 90s , detailing the exploits of other biker gangs , their miseries and downfall , and pull out an Assassin's Creed style by making the protagonist the father of Billy Grey , then we get all these 'emotional bonding' between father and son moments and have a better understanding on the logistic between all these miserable characters , oh and it will also not so subtly reveal that Johnny was in fact a government agent , and he was the one that caused Billy Grey to go mad with drugs in the first place , sabotage from within , think about it , why else would Johnny have wanted to make a stable alliance with the Angels of Death ? establishing a drug trade with the Angels of Death allows them to reach across their global network , and blow the whole stint in one single masterful promotion worthy stroke ...
Johnny Klebitz , thanks to the power of milking a franchise with flashback dlcs , will become a much more complex and subsequently hated character , while Billy Grey becomes one of the finest tragic hero in our twenty first century writing fictions , and all we can do is gasp ! ...
 
Awesome plot twist ; then in turn by that logic Trevor becomes everybody's hero too ! ...

 

Nah who are we kidding , all we want is more Grand Theft Autos set with biker motifs , rollercoaster plot twists comes second ...


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#43

Posted 13 May 2014 - 11:35 AM

The reason for the truce was supposedly because the Angels were too numerous though a game can never actually present such facts accurately. In a way it's because he was trying to protect his brothers from being meaninglessly slaughtered, its just some didn't agree with this line of thought.

Many factors in the storyline like this one however are left rather unclear and all we have is speculation. We don't see or hear the full picture so all we can do is come to our own conclusions. There's not enough proof on either side.
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Grievous
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#44

Posted 15 May 2014 - 06:01 PM

This is most certainly a controversial statement, but I suddenly find Johnny Klebitz to be an odd choice for a Grand Theft Auto protagonist.
Niko Bellic and Michael De Santa too to some extent also falls to this basket, but Johnny's case is particularly noticeable: Billy Grey on the other hand, although less nuanced as a character than Johnny, seems to embrace the world of Grand Theft Auto more easily. He, like Trevor, indulges in sex, drugs, random violence, lies and theft. Johnny meanwhile feels uncomfortable in these activities. The 'best' moments for Johnny, as he himself at times openly states, are those where he is just riding around town with Jim Terry and Clay.

The weirdest part is that it actually Plays Well to just ride along town with Johnny's brothers. The occasional bike theft for Angus and road rash races didn't hurt, but then the gang wars started to make things a bit unhinged since it served no narrative purpose and very little to gameplay purposes as well. I even recall reading at least one review where the reviewer thought that most of the story missions fitted Niko Bellic better, where the high body count and at times random shootouts just don't feel to be quite part of Johnny's design.

So ... I don't know. I think Johnny had always kind of been the odd one to begin with, and this is a serie where the lesser evil ones generally don't thrive.
He was the least 'Grand Theft Auto'-ish protagonist, ironically making him one if not the most interesting one.

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#45

Posted 15 May 2014 - 08:36 PM Edited by B Dawg, 15 May 2014 - 08:41 PM.

Then they should have let us play as the Angels Of Death in the first place. Then the tradition of killing The Lost since IV would be justified and the protagonist would have no moral bullsh*t to hold him back from wrecking havoc all over the city, then nobody would have complained about Johnny or his companions getting slaughtered.

 

Both gangs, The Lost and the Angels Of Death haven't been done any justice in GTA V, the AoD somehow extinct by a weakened Lost Liberty Chapter, Johnny being the Vice or President of the Los Santos Chapter (did he kill their leader too? He can't be the only president of all the Lost Chapters), Terry and Clay, from badass no mercy can take a crap ton of bullets bikers to generic pussies...

 

Hell I personally prefered the looks of the Angels Of Death, and pre-TLAD Lost bikers as opposed to the pretty face modern wear whatever you want bikers. TLAD was perfectly executed gameplay wise (wish it included some melee-combat missions with the Baseball Bat), the protagonist gang and story is debatable.

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Peachrocks
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#46

Posted 16 May 2014 - 04:19 AM Edited by Peachrocks, 16 May 2014 - 04:20 AM.

This is most certainly a controversial statement, but I suddenly find Johnny Klebitz to be an odd choice for a Grand Theft Auto protagonist.Niko Bellic and Michael De Santa too to some extent also falls to this basket, but Johnny's case is particularly noticeable: Billy Grey on the other hand, although less nuanced as a character than Johnny, seems to embrace the world of Grand Theft Auto more easily. He, like Trevor, indulges in sex, drugs, random violence, lies and theft. Johnny meanwhile feels uncomfortable in these activities. The 'best' moments for Johnny, as he himself at times openly states, are those where he is just riding around town with Jim Terry and Clay.The weirdest part is that it actually Plays Well to just ride along town with Johnny's brothers. The occasional bike theft for Angus and road rash races didn't hurt, but then the gang wars started to make things a bit unhinged since it served no narrative purpose and very little to gameplay purposes as well. I even recall reading at least one review where the reviewer thought that most of the story missions fitted Niko Bellic better, where the high body count and at times random shootouts just don't feel to be quite part of Johnny's design.So ... I don't know. I think Johnny had always kind of been the odd one to begin with, and this is a serie where the lesser evil ones generally don't thrive.He was the least 'Grand Theft Auto'-ish protagonist, ironically making him one if not the most interesting one.

I actually agree with Johnny being the odd one out but not for this reason. At least not directly.

The thing about Johnny to remember is that he cares too much. I've said it loads of times but I think the implications are sometimes overlooked.

Why didn't Johnny want the war? Because brothers would die and if Angus was to be believed it was a war they couldn't win at that time, Billy was only in it for pride and his own selfish reasons. I don't think Johnny objects to random violence and the general GTA thing, he objects to that when the consequences could or will directly hurt his brothers.

That's why he's the odd ball, unlike the other protagonists (aside Michael) he's got something other than himself to look out for. Even with Michael it's less true than it is with Johnny but it still does impact his character. Niko and Roman doesn't really apply seeing as Roman causes many of his own problems and many of Niko's too...
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#47

Posted 16 May 2014 - 03:54 PM

You just reminded me that Lost & Damned's gang war featured an experience bar of sorts for the various Lost bikers as well as an in-game acknowledgement of deceased bikers with the memorial wall in the clubhouse.
It's the only Grand Theft Auto that gives a permanent in-game and visual reaction to the lives of npcs dear to the protagonist. It's quite a statement.

I guess thus with the end of the Alderney clubhouse, Johnny just crawls back to Ashley a lot more easily than before as she's the only thing left that he could care for.
And since Ashley only cared about the crystal ...

But I still don't see why Rockstar would bother depicting the final end to Johnny in V.
If they could close off Niko Bellic with the simple mention of "He went off the radar/He retired", then I sure as heck don't see why they had to pull such a drastic move with Johnny Klebitz.

Billy was only in it for pride and his own selfish reasons.


Which is a very natural way of thinking for the standard Grand Theft Auto protagonist!
And it's worked alright for over ten years ... sort of.

I suddenly have this epiphany: they should have made both Billy Grey and Johnny Klebitz playable characters! Each has its own different playstyle, for example the Lost bikers' experience bar is only relevant and available when playing as Johnny; with Billy instead we get to increase his own personal life bar with consumption of drugs alcohol and "the occasional bit of the hole".

And then comes this controversial moment where the player has to choose the fate of the two characters midway through the plot, branching into two completely different second and third act!
Does Johnny gets to watch as Billy gets hauled to jail, or did Billy's deal with the Triads succeeded? You decide!

Lost & Damned: Remastered Director's Cut, using new graphic visuals, including all new weapons such chains and butterfly knives, vehicles such as Vietnam-era-certified helicopter of doom, country radio stations and more republican space rangers episodes!

I'll buy it for sure!

Then they should have let us play as the Angels Of Death in the first place. Then the tradition of killing The Lost since IV would be justified and the protagonist would have no moral bullsh*t to hold him back from wrecking havoc all over the city, then nobody would have complained about Johnny or his companions getting slaughtered.


FAKE SPOILER: it turns out Trevor is a Angels of Death sleeper agent!!
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#48

Posted 17 May 2014 - 04:00 PM

The thing is the theme for tlad is significantly different as to require a different style of protagonist. That's why Billy is the antagonist because his values and beliefs clash with the protagonist even though Billy might work as a protagonist in a standard gta game.

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#49

Posted 17 May 2014 - 05:05 PM

Personally I don't expect to see a protagonist in line with Johnny in the next eventual biker themed Grand Theft Auto, it'll be a blend of Billy and Trevor instead.

It'll still have a sorry ass ending, so all is well!

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#50

Posted 20 May 2014 - 09:02 AM Edited by Dr. Robotnik, 20 May 2014 - 09:03 AM.

The thing is the theme for tlad is significantly different as to require a different style of protagonist. That's why Billy is the antagonist because his values and beliefs clash with the protagonist even though Billy might work as a protagonist in a standard gta game.

Even if Billy were a protagonist, he would probably come across as unsympathetic, because he's a leader rather than a subordinate. GTA protagonists are sympathetic partly because they're often at the whims of their criminal bosses. Take that away and give them responsiblities, and they just look like abusive assholes.


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#51

Posted 20 May 2014 - 10:09 AM Edited by Grievous, 20 May 2014 - 10:14 AM.

GTA protagonists are sympathetic partly because they're often at the whims of their criminal bosses. Take that away and give them responsiblities, and they just look like abusive assholes.


That'll explain why I was never much of a fan of Tommy Vercetti, after the first couple of introductory missions.
Tom Sizemore then spends the rest of the game yelling of the phone, while Ray Liotta goes "yeah cool story bro bye bye".

Victor Vance was alright though ... for about the five missions where he was his own boss acting on his own authority.

EDIT: wait a second ... So That's Why they had to add the whole FIB thing in V, to act as the 'bigger fish' that barks over at Trevor. Otherwise Trevor would have been unconditionally his own man and abusing his authority without restraints.
Now we can't have that now could we? let's put in his corrupt government agents to act as the bigger bad and make out violent protagonist look ... sympathetic. Somewhat.

Whatever. An unsympathetic biker leader as the playable character can't be worse.

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#52

Posted 22 May 2014 - 06:54 AM Edited by Dr. Robotnik, 22 May 2014 - 07:20 AM.

 

 

 

EDIT: wait a second ... So That's Why they had to add the whole FIB thing in V, to act as the 'bigger fish' that barks over at Trevor. Otherwise Trevor would have been unconditionally his own man and abusing his authority without restraints.
Now we can't have that now could we? let's put in his corrupt government agents to act as the bigger bad and make out violent protagonist look ... sympathetic. Somewhat.

Whatever. An unsympathetic biker leader as the playable character can't be worse.

 

Especially since they could've just as easily had Trevor work for the FIB willingly by having Steve Haines come to him and say, "Hey, you can kill people, they just have to be people I want to kill, too."

 

And that might've been a better use of Steve Haines as a character, since I found him more interesting when they played up his power-hungry, intimidating, antisocial aspects and made him a kind of counterpoint to Trevor in the same way that Dave Norton balanced out Michael.

 

But I still don't see why Rockstar would bother depicting the final end to Johnny in V.
If they could close off Niko Bellic with the simple mention of "He went off the radar/He retired", then I sure as heck don't see why they had to pull such a drastic move with Johnny Klebitz.

 

Heck, if they'd made the AOD Trevor's antagonists and had them track down and kill off Johnny K and the remainder of the Lost in the interim between games, I wouldn't have minded. That seems more plausible than what they ended up doing, especially since the feud with the Deadbeats never really gets resolved in the DLC itself.


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#53

Posted 22 May 2014 - 02:55 PM

The feud between the Lost and Angels of Death was presented as being part of the main conflict in the Lost & Damned during the pre-release materials, I was kind of disappointed to see how little their impact actually struck.

Something tells me the fact that Trevor gets a hold of the Only strip club in Los Santos is somehow going to bite him in the face in V's DLC.
As stereotypical as it may seem, I'm having a hunch the Angels of Death will make an appearance at the Vanilla Unicorn in V's DLC, only for Trevor mistaking them as the Lost, and then Angels gets to strip him naked.

As for Steven Haines' missed opportunity as a character ... Merryweather can always scoop back in to steal the spotlight, and flash lots of money in Trevor's face to hire him and make him into their personal one man army in cleaning up any loose ends regarding the biker and cartel issues in Blaine County, or something like that.

In any case none of this bodes well for representations of the Lost, or Johnny's heritage.

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#54

Posted 24 May 2014 - 05:51 AM

just to point something out, nobody wants a AOD dlc, think of all the fat screaming 12 years olds on any video game shouting racist remarks, now give them a game based around neo Nazi bikers

 

its not that it cant be pulled off, i didn't hate Gerald even though he said the N-word one to many times, or Rocco for his book of slurs. its possible to make a game with a character even a protagonist that has unredeemable characteristics and has been done in film and tv (ex : American history X which is a technically i guess) but when you bring in gta online....think of the children, the dumb ass children  


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#55

Posted 25 May 2014 - 04:11 PM Edited by Grievous, 25 May 2014 - 04:24 PM.

If we are to believe the Lost in V, Angels of Death's presence are "history" in San Andreas.
In one of the dlc ideas I proposed, we'll be essentially playing as a derelict remnant of Blaine County's AoD, and not tight organized like the ones we're previously accustomed to back in Liberty City.
As such, this solitary group of AoD that were in hiding ever since the Lost took over are a far cry from the utterly remorseless killers with politically incorrect stigmas. Rather it's a sad depressing bunch of homeless bikers that only managed to resurface after Trevor Philips' intervention with the Lost.

I agree though it'll be insane to make playable AoD the same vein as, say, the Civil Border Patrol that Trevor came across in V.
I'm playing this small side mission for the second time and I frankly can't comprehend the logistic behind it. It's satire beyond boundaries, not exactly entertaining on its own.

EDIT: Besides it's not like the Lost MC is actually any better.
Aside from Johnny's little posse, every other Lost group, both major and minor we came across weren't really the nicest bunch or shows sympathetic ethical perspective.
Billy Grey's presidency of the Lost led to no good.
Brian Jeremy's civil war showed that a good portion of the Lost is willing to kill Johnny and co.
And the Lost we came across in V are either tweaked out meth users, or somewhat extreme caricatures of the 'outlaw bikers'.
They didn't exactly shown signs relating to politically incorrect sentiments, but it wasn't that far out either.

Johnny's little posse was the odd bunch, the outlaws within the outlaw institution.
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