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Billy > Johnny

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Orto_Dogge
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#1

Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:06 PM Edited by Orto_Dogge, 15 April 2014 - 07:06 PM.

Yes, Billy is a better president, than Johnny. Let's take a look at things, people.
 
There were two most precious things in Liberty City in 2008, both worthing two million dollars. It thanks to Billy, The Lost were able to lay their hands on both of them.
 
First, it's heroin. After a week out of the rehab, Billy manages to find information about the biggest batch of drug on the East Coast. He destroys the blood enemies' HQ and in the process steals two million worth heroin. Pegorino Family and Russian Mafia were eliminated for that batch, but Billy was able to own it, being a leader of a small club of Alderney piss lickers.
More than that, he was able to strike a deal with Triads. Triads killed couple of Angels of Death for losing the stuff, but Billy came straight to their base of operation and found the courage to set the terms to their leader. Yes, he lost money on that deal, but he found the way to get rid of unloyal member, who was an obstacle for his way of running things. As he said: "This gang ain't big enough for two men pulling in different directions" and "This gang doesn't mean sh*t if the men don't follow their leader". It was egoistic, no doubt, but effective.
 
Second, it's diamonds. When Johnny, after all that time he was acting president, "made a couple of deals and they kind of worked", Billy created an alliance with the most influential crime family in their very own Alderney after a week out of the rehab. Ray Boccino provided the gang with the powerful weapon to sell and later gave them the opportunity to got a million just for being in the right place in the right time. Opportunity that Johnny shamefully trucked up.
 
Let's see, what Johnny achieved with his way of running things.
 
First, it was a civil war. Johnny didn't shut Brian up after "This sh*t's Cursed", when there was a chance, and took all the crap Brian gave him. Then he was too busy running errands for Elizabeta, Angus and Stubbs to notice, that his gang's falling apart. Despite being coward and douche, Brian gathered the majority of the club under the Billy's banner. Billy was a charismatic leader and an idol for his soldiers. Johnny was just a good friend for some old members.
Now let's see "End of Chapter" cutscenes one more time. Brian was offering a truce to Johnny! It was Johnny, who starts threatening Brian with his life during the official meeting, which led to civil war. Isn't this a stupid and haste decision? Is it worth of president? Yes, Brian was acting silly and offensive, but he was just an overgrown child. Johnny was the president. President could not afford himself a luxury of such actions. During the phone call to Angus Johnny tells, that it was Billy who started civil war. "That doesn't sound very presidential" — says Angus, critisizing Johnny's complains. Even Angus, people.
 
Second, it were wrong connections. Johnny sticked to sinking ship of Elizabeta Torres to the end, running small errands for her for a couple of thousands dollars. Billy set him up with such influential people as Thomas Stubbs and Ray Boccino, but Johnny acted as a douche with both of them, being a loyal friend of such a vulgar junkie as Liz at the same time.
Jim hooked him up with Malc and what Johnny made of this? Absolutely nothing. Jim traded the box of pipe bombs with Uptown Riders and that's it. Johnny just acted as the hitman for Liz with Malc, not setting up any deal or truce with his club. They didn't even become the friends.
Yes, in the end of the day, Boccino and Stubbs choose Johnny over Billy. But it was only because of Billy's arrest and Brian's incompetence. Johnny succesfully trucked up both opportunities with them.
 
Third, it's elimination of the club. What Ray offered to Johnny? Steal the diamonds from Gay Tony and get the million for that. What Johnny did? Destroyed his own club. He and Jim both were so vocal in criticizing Billy for his careless actions with Triads, but it was them, who started a war with the most powerful crime family in their city. Ain't hey just stupid?
Johnny could steal this batch of coke from Elizabeta and get away with it. But no, Johnny was loyal to crazy Liz to the end, but ripped off Ray just for being friend of Ashley. During "Museum Piece" Ray instructed Niko to give Johnny the half of money after the deal. He was honest with him. It was Johnny, who chose war over business.
And then, in Drusilla's basement, when he had the chance to kill Ray and cut all the ways for Alderney Mob to find out it was him (since Phil Bell and James Pegorino didn't know about the diamond deal until "No Way on the Subway") he choose running away. What the hell, people?
Ray needed his gang not for their muscle or abilities. He needed them just to got a distance from them diamonds. And offered a whole half. It was beautiful opportunity and Johnny lost it in the most senseless way.
And yes, he never avenged Jim and clubhouse. He just burned the whole place down and disband the gang. Beautiful decision.
 
I actually understand, why bikers in GTA V think, that Billy was the better leader than Johnny. I can even understand, why they can't believe in him being a snitch. 
 
It's charisma over stupidity, not another way around.
 
I, personally, hate being in one team with people like Billy. I'm more like Johnny Klebitz. I'm not always able to fight stupidity in face of people like Brian, and just like Johnny prefer to mock them. I'm not always able to argue with orders and have a senseless polemic with flamboyant confidence in face of people like Billy. But hey, I'm not a president of the outlaw biker gang. And even if I ever will be (which is quite doubtful) — I'll make a terrible president.
 
And even then I will never try to rip off the wise guys.
 
So Billy, being a difficult person for us to understand, was still more able for such job than Johnny.
 
Who is still my favourite character.
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#2

Posted 16 April 2014 - 12:25 AM

- The civil war started because Billy started poisoning Brian and the club against Johnny so Billy could get what he wanted. Billy wanted ultimate totalitarianism. Johnny says "I don't give a f*ck about all that leadership stuff. Far as I'm concerned, all us brothers are equal." 

- Elizabeth was being brought down by snitches and government pressure, as was Ray. At least Liz was an honest business woman with the Lost, but Ray only looks after himself. 

- The Triads were about to come down on the Lost for their heroin. They only realized it was "cursed" after they shot up China town. Originally, as shown in TBoGT, Billy was going to set up Johnny for his demise, but when Billy accidentally got arrested, Billy used that to blame Johnny, and then he turned states on the club.

 

Billy may have gotten some holds on things, but they were for his own selfish and reckless desires. Johnny wanted the club to be a lifestyle, but was rational enough to see that "business has to be kept afloat or we're f*cked", and preferred just getting sh*tfaced, riding, and fighting with fists and baseball bats over SMGs. In a way, that's another theme of TLaD. Billy is "the man" to the club, always there to try to undermine the lower and middle classes to the upper class gets what they want. Johnny tried to live equally and peacefully with his brothers and the AoD, but trying to clean up the mess that Billy started proved that the world isn't ready for Johnny's noble idea of living without corruption. 

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B Dawg
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#3

Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:20 AM Edited by B Dawg, 18 April 2014 - 10:30 AM.

Besides, Angus was criticizing Billy's actions in 'End Of Chapter', not Johnny's complaints. Johnny becomes president after the whole mission and cutscenes. Angus supports Johnny and his actions throughout the whole game though.


Orto_Dogge
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#4

Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:24 AM

 The civil war started because Billy started poisoning Brian and the club against Johnny

 

How? Billy was in prison at the moment. Do you have any proof of that?

Civil War started, because the members of the Lost didn't want Johnny to be the president and he took the title without asking. That's why after "End of Chapter" Johnny says, that the only members left are Jim, Terry, Clay and Angus. Because only his friends support his candidature. Almost all other club members prefer Brian over Johnny.

Second reason for Civil War is Johnny's ignorance. As I said, he was too busy running errands for other people, while Brian gathered his very own soldiers against him. And after that, during the meeting with Brian, Johnny let his anger took over him, and made a war instead of truce.

 

Johnny says "I don't give a f*ck about all that leadership stuff. Far as I'm concerned, all us brothers are equal." 

 

When did he say that?

 

At least Liz was an honest business woman with the Lost, but Ray only looks after himself. 

 

False.

Elizabeta never gave a share from the deals to Johnny, but only paid him as a henchman.

Ray was going to give him half of the sum from the deal. One million dollars. More than he would get for himself, actually.

Ray was far more honest with the Lost. If money argument is not enough, take a look at cutscenes. Liz never explains background for her missions, while Ray tells Johnny everything about Brian and diamonds during their two meetings.

You thesis is wrong.

 

The Triads were about to come down on the Lost for their heroin.

 

 

You can't know what Triads were going to do. As far as we know, Billy managed to go into their base and strike a deal with their leader.

 

Billy may have gotten some holds on things, but they were for his own selfish and reckless desires.

 

 

No. It was Johnny, who killed his own brothers for the title of president. And it was Johnny, who steals from the mob and set up his best friends.

Billy wanted to get rid of Johnny, yes, but in the end it was for the prosperity of the club. As we can see after his arrest, majority of the club was at his side.

Billy is "the man" to the club, always there to try to undermine the lower and middle classes to the upper class gets what they want.

 

This is the right leadership for the gang.

 

Johnny tried to live equally and peacefully with his brothers and the AoD

 

This is the wrong leadership for the gang.

 

but trying to clean up the mess that Billy started

 

What mess, exactly? Brian's loyalty? Billy was able to control him, it is strange thing, that Johnny couldn't.

War with Angels of Death? But Johnny and Jim continued to fight Angels without any payback from them.

Connection with Ray Boccino? But this was an opportunity to earn million dollars.

I can't see any mess after Billy. Civil War was the product of Johnny's taking over the title. If he wanted brothers to be so equal, as you said, why didn't he set ip some election, by the way?

 

world isn't ready for Johnny's noble idea of living without corruption

 

 

Especially for the noble idea of stealing from the mob.

 

Besides, Angus was criticizing Billy's actions in 'End Of Chapter', not Johnny's complaints.

 

Johnny: Billy started Civil War.

Angus: That doesn't sound very presidential.

Johnny: I'm a president of a bunch of Alderney piss lickers, not the whole nation, so I'll be sounding how I want.

Angus: Just do things right for the brothers and not for your pride.

I don't remember exact words, but here it is. Replay it if you want proofs.


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#5

Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:30 AM

Holy f*ck, you're oddly committed to this...
I'll try to re-reason with you when I feel like a two hour text disection project, but until then, team Johnny!
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B Dawg
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#6

Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:48 AM Edited by B Dawg, 16 April 2014 - 09:04 AM.

How? Billy was in prison at the moment. Do you have any proof of that?

Civil War started, because the members of the Lost didn't want Johnny to be the president and he took the title without asking. That's why after "End of Chapter" Johnny says, that the only members left are Jim, Terry, Clay and Angus. Because only his friends support his candidature. Almost all other club members prefer Brian over Johnny.

Second reason for Civil War is Johnny's ignorance.

 

Johnny: Billy started Civil War.

Angus: That doesn't sound very presidential.

Johnny: I'm a president of a bunch of Alderney piss lickers, not the whole nation, so I'll be sounding how I want.

Angus: Just do things right for the brothers and not for your pride.

I don't remember exact words, but here it is. Replay it if you want proofs.

My bad. I mixed up the ending of This sh*t's Cursed with End Of Chapter. But even I would have killed all the asslickers like Brian.

 

During the events of End Of Chapter, Johnny has his own followers (the ones you usually go with during gang wars) and even after the event, there are still Lost members in and around the clubhouse saying 'Johnny! My main man!'

 

That brings another question, what was the Lost's opinion on Johnny's leadership before the events of 'Clean And Serene'?


Dr. Robotnik
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#7

Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:53 AM Edited by Dr. Robotnik, 16 April 2014 - 08:51 AM.

While I think you can blame Johnny for a lot of things, I don't think the civil war's one of them. Brian was under the impression Johnny had ratted them out. A good chunk of the club sided with him out of loyalty to Billy. There was no way for Johnny to prove his innocence because the record of the conversation he had with the fed was on his phone, but not the content. They fought. Johnny won.

 

Maybe you could argue that from the beginning Johnny should have put more effort into building relationships with the brothers to the point where they'd choose him over Brian, but since that point never gets brought up, there's no reason to believe that would have made much difference.

 

And what did Billy do for his brothers during the events of the game? He only showed genuine interest in his own satisfaction and was willing to sell them out to save his own skin, something Johnny didn't do when given the chance.


 

How? Billy was in prison at the moment. Do you have any proof of that?

Civil War started, because the members of the Lost didn't want Johnny to be the president and he took the title without asking. That's why after "End of Chapter" Johnny says, that the only members left are Jim, Terry, Clay and Angus. Because only his friends support his candidature. Almost all other club members prefer Brian over Johnny.

Second reason for Civil War is Johnny's ignorance.

 

Johnny: Billy started Civil War.

Angus: That doesn't sound very presidential.

Johnny: I'm a president of a bunch of Alderney piss lickers, not the whole nation, so I'll be sounding how I want.

Angus: Just do things right for the brothers and not for your pride.

I don't remember exact words, but here it is. Replay it if you want proofs.

My bad. I mixed up the ending of This sh*t's Cursed with End Of Chapter. But even I would have killed all the asslickers like Brian.

 

During the events of End Of Chapter, Johnny has his own followers (the ones you usually go with during gang wars) and even after the event, there are still Lost members in and around the clubhouse saying 'Johnny! My main man!'

 

That brings another question, what was the Lost's opinion on Johnny's leadership before Clean And Serene?

 

Hard to say. It must have not been too good, since so many were willing to side with a sh*tdick like Brian over their V.P. My guess is that a lot were young and stupid and mistakenly looked up to Billy's recklessness.

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B Dawg
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#8

Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:08 AM Edited by B Dawg, 16 April 2014 - 09:16 AM.

And another point on the Brian and the Civil War thing, it was clear obvious to me that he was going to have Johnny killed. The moment Johnny and his brothers come Brian starts the conversation with: 'Here comes Tweedle Dum and Tweedle f*cking Dumber! Billy was always good to you and you ratted him out!' even though it was Billy who tried to get his own brothers killed.

 

Amazing how complex and good this story is that it actually produced some Billy followers :p


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#9

Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:11 AM

Holy f*ck, you're oddly committed to this...
I'll try to re-reason with you when I feel like a two hour text disection project, but until then, team Johnny!

I'm not oddly commited to anything.

It's not a secret, that you are the fanboy of Johnny and spread the word of it through whole forum. It's not my speculation or offense, it's a fact proven by some of your threads and posts.

I have a point about Billy. Point is kind of fresh and kind of sensible.

And it's funny to see reaction of a commited person like you.

But we still can have a decent discussion, if you'll refrain from swearing and personal references.

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Dr. Robotnik
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#10

Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:13 AM

I guess the quote from Angus is meant to indicate that Johnny could have resolved the dispute with Brian peacefully if he'd tried, but I don't see how he could have. Brian hated his guts and was firmly convinced he'd sold out Billy; I can't imagine he and his faction would have ever done anything but just try to kill him.

 

That and Brian was apparently in on the plan to off Johnny using the Triads, given the look he shares with Billy and the fact that he makes a point of staying behind.

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Orto_Dogge
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#11

Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:42 AM

Oh, we can discuss matters of Triads' ambush and Civil War infinitely. We know too little about them to make any decisions. Let's try to focus on something more clear, like Johnny's and Billy's decisions as presidents, not their inner intrigues.

Johnny led the gang to its end, is he not? He tried to rip Ray off and started war, that was pretty UNcivil.

And it's thanks to Billy Johnny was introduced to such people as Tom Stubbs and Ray Boccino. They are pretty good connections for a gang like Lost, don't you think?

And Johnny worked for Elizabeta as a petty hired gun. Being a gang's leader, he took a role of fresh-off the boat immigrant in the start of his career (I mean Niko, yes).

What do you think of that?

Especially Dr. Robotnik and B Dawg. I want to discuss it with you, fine people.


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#12

Posted 16 April 2014 - 10:39 AM

Connection to Ray was not a good thing to the club. Johnny did want to rip him off during the diamonds deal, indeed, but Ray has planned the same thing - weren't there actually Ray's goons waiting for Johnny outside the museum? Generally speaking, starting any deals with Boccino would end destructive for the club.

 

As for civil war, Brian lured Johnny and his companions to the docks and had all his firepower focused there, so it's pretty clear that he's the one who made an ambush. Brian's faction might have been strong in numbers, however I think they were exaggerating by saying it was the majority. Johnny still had the treasurer, road captain and sergeant of arms on his side, so all the "powerful" people inside the club. He also can get a constant "supply" of brothers for gang wars throughtout the game.

 

As for Billy, he broke the truce with AoD which soon costed the lives of some Lost members. Stealing heroin was absolutely pointless as he pretty much gave it all back during "This sh*t's cursed" and admitted to Triads that his gang did it, do you think they would just let it go like that without a revenge? They were far more powerful than Boccino's Alderney goombas in fact, so ripping them off wasn't such a good idea.

 

Not killing Boccino when they had a chance to do it with Jim is another story, one thing that doesn't make sense for me within the story, but I've already made a topic about it a while ago.

 

And Tom Stubbs was a connection made by that Dave Grossman guy, not by Billy himself. If anything, Billy should have visited Stubbs by himself as a chapter president to set up a relationship on good terms with him. In the end, as wicked as it may sound, a corrupt politician was one of the last people who stayed loyal to the petty Lost Motorcycle gang... And Johnny was all ready to actually deal with Boccino and would probably succeed at it if it wasn't for Stubbs telling him that Pegorino's are a sinking ship without his help.

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Orto_Dogge
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#13

Posted 16 April 2014 - 11:00 AM

Connection to Ray was not a good thing to the club. Johnny did want to rip him off during the diamonds deal, indeed, but Ray has planned the same thing - weren't there actually Ray's goons waiting for Johnny outside the museum? Generally speaking, starting any deals with Boccino would end destructive for the club.

Of course Ray sent his goons to the meeting, it was his deal after all.

In his conversation with Niko before the deal, he instructed him to give Johnny the half. So his intentions are clear. He didn't plan to cheat Johnny.

So your thesis is false. Connection with Boccino was supposed to be good for the club and it's Johnny's fault that it wasn't.

 

As for civil war, Brian lured Johnny and his companions to the docks and had all his firepower focused there, so it's pretty clear that he's the one who made an ambush.

Johnny has his firepower focused there too. He brought his whole gang along, including random bikers from Gang Wars.

And it was Johnny, who first reveals his intentions to kill Brian, not the other way around.

 

 

Brian's faction might have been strong in numbers, however I think they were exaggerating by saying it was the majority. Johnny still had the treasurer, road captain and sergeant of arms on his side, so all the "powerful" people inside the club. He also can get a constant "supply" of brothers for gang wars throughtout the game.

Majority is always about the numbers.

If four people bend over twenty people for some ideas, it doesn't make them majority. It makes them bullies.

Jim, Terry and Clay were personal friends of Johnny. Brian led just fellow members. Because members actually respected Billy.

Jim, Terry and Johnny were outcasts within the club. They were old and thought only about business and money. Biker gangs are not about this. That's why they are make terrible leader, when Billy was gone.

 

As for Billy, he broke the truce with AoD which soon costed the lives of some Lost members.

That's what the Lost MC about, isn't it? About gang war with Angels of Death.

Johnny's decisions put way more brothers in coffins. And it was not about biker gang, it was about greed.

 

Stealing heroin was absolutely pointless as he pretty much gave it all back during "This sh*t's cursed"

Yes, Billy made a hard and doubtful decision. He could get the money, but decided to get the loyalty within the club instead. That's why he sacrificed heroin for killing Johnny, He didn't want a civil war. Because gang is supposed to have one leader.

 

and admitted to Triads that his gang did it, do you think they would just let it go like that without a revenge? They were far more powerful than Boccino's Alderney goombas in fact, so ripping them off wasn't such a good idea.

False.

Triads never done any damage to Lost and Alderney Mob actually destroyed it.

 

Not killing Boccino when they had a chance to do it with Jim is another story, one thing that doesn't make sense for me within the story, but I've already made a topic about it a while ago.

Cool.

 

And Tom Stubbs was a connection made by that Dave Grossman guy, not by Billy himself.

Why don't you say, that Tom Stubbs was a connection made by Leavis, then?

Johnny didn't want to communicate with people like Dave Grossman and people like Stubbs. It was Billy's call to actually affiliate the gang with such individuals. Billy made the right connections. Johnny made wrong.

 

If anything, Billy should have visited Stubbs by himself as a chapter president to set up a relationship on good terms with him. In the end, as wicked as it may sound, a corrupt politician was one of the last people who stayed loyal to the petty Lost Motorcycle gang... 

Billy doesn't need to run errands for nobody, it's Johnny's prerogative.

And Stubbs was loyal to Johnny, not for any gang.

 

And Johnny was all ready to actually deal with Boccino and would probably succeed at it if it wasn't for Stubbs telling him that Pegorino's are a sinking ship without his help.

I know.

But Johnny never avenged his brothers.


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#14

Posted 16 April 2014 - 01:29 PM Edited by Peachrocks, 16 April 2014 - 01:30 PM.

Holy f*ck, you're oddly committed to this...
I'll try to re-reason with you when I feel like a two hour text disection project, but until then, team Johnny!

Yeah there's an odd tone of fanaticism in the message here and it's really hard to reason with it. I had enough of that from Trevor fanboys, I don't really want to deal with it again especially over something like this...

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#15

Posted 16 April 2014 - 02:39 PM

Stubbs wasn't that great connection at first sight. Remember that he originally pushed Johnny into working for him by blackmailing him? And when you're a criminal, it's generally better to steer away from the government. Even if the partnership is fruitful, it might always turn into a dead end, like with Michael and his deal with FIB.

 

Grossman, well, I think that he could definitely be useful to the club, but that was more of a clash of philosophies and principles than anything else. It's implied that Billy let pretty much anyone in the club, while Johnny wanted the club to be more subtle and covert. "We don't need numbers, we need brothers." The more people you let in, the higher chance someone might squeal, especially those "weekend warriors", not loyal to the idea of the Lost to the bone, like Grossman.

 

As for Johnny ripping Ray off and the fallout of it - yeah it's definitely Johnny's own fault. I assume Johnny planned, now that the Alderney chapter was pretty much a history, on leaving the city anyway. So why not rip Ray off and get an extra million? Additionally, Johnny obviously still had feelings for Ashley and he knew, or at least assumed that, Ray was using her. The fact that Johnny was blinded with a grudge and wanted to get back at Ray didn't help.

 

 

Jim, Terry and Johnny were outcasts within the club. They were old and thought only about business and money. Biker gangs are not about this. That's why they are make terrible leader, when Billy was gone.

But that was the whole point. You can't run around like a maniac, stir sh*t up. Johnny and co. knew that being outlaws, just doing whatever the hell you want, not caring about consequences, creates nothing but trouble and the club wouldn't survive if it continued. Sooner or later, cops, AoD, feds or whoever Billy pis*ed off would stomp the club into the ground. And Johnny didn't betray the idea of the Lost either. He wasn't going to move into a mansion, start legit business or whatever. He just wanted himself, and his brothers, to survive and live freely, independently and peacefully.

 

Finally, you really think leadership shouldn't care about people under them? I mean, the fact that people in power care only about themselves and run lower classes into the ground is one of the worst things about our society and fight against this is one of cornerstones of the Lost MC's philosophy.

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#16

Posted 16 April 2014 - 02:42 PM

 

Holy f*ck, you're oddly committed to this...
I'll try to re-reason with you when I feel like a two hour text disection project, but until then, team Johnny!

Yeah there's an odd tone of fanaticism in the message here and it's really hard to reason with it. I had enough of that from Trevor fanboys, I don't really want to deal with it again especially over something like this...

 

The only odd tone of fanaticism on this forum is you guys, protecting Johnny Klebitz together by all costs, claiming as fanboys anyone who has something to say.

I personally liked Johnny more before I see you bunch of fanboys here.


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#17

Posted 16 April 2014 - 03:16 PM

Stubbs wasn't that great connection at first sight. Remember that he originally pushed Johnny into working for him by blackmailing him? And when you're a criminal, it's generally better to steer away from the government. Even if the partnership is fruitful, it might always turn into a dead end, like with Michael and his deal with FIB. 

 

Please, tell it to Jon Gravelli. :)

 

Grossman, well, I think that he could definitely be useful to the club, but that was more of a clash of philosophies and principles than anything else. It's implied that Billy let pretty much anyone in the club, while Johnny wanted the club to be more subtle and covert. "We don't need numbers, we need brothers." The more people you let in, the higher chance someone might squeal, especially those "weekend warriors", not loyal to the idea of the Lost to the bone, like Grossman.

Johnny's philisophy can be as pure and beautiful as it is, but it's absolutely senseless for the gang.

Gang needs numbers. And gang need connections.

 

As for Johnny ripping Ray off and the fallout of it - yeah it's definitely Johnny's own fault. I assume Johnny planned, now that the Alderney chapter was pretty much a history, on leaving the city anyway. So why not rip Ray off and get an extra million? Additionally, Johnny obviously still had feelings for Ashley and he knew, or at least assumed that, Ray was using her. The fact that Johnny was blinded with a grudge and wanted to get back at Ray didn't help.

That's exactly the kind of egoism Billy is always blamed for.

 

But that was the whole point. You can't run around like a maniac, stir sh*t up. Johnny and co. knew that being outlaws, just doing whatever the hell you want, not caring about consequences, creates nothing but trouble and the club wouldn't survive if it continued. Sooner or later, cops, AoD, feds or whoever Billy pis*ed off would stomp the club into the ground. And Johnny didn't betray the idea of the Lost either. He wasn't going to move into a mansion, start legit business or whatever. He just wanted himself, and his brothers, to survive and live freely, independently and peacefully.

The Lost are supposed to be the rebels and gangbangers. Even if your middle age is rapidly approaching it doesn't mean that you should drag your whole gang to peaceful and prosperous life. Civil War has showed us, that majority of the gang disagrees with Johnny's views on life.

 

 

Finally, you really think leadership shouldn't care about people under them? I mean, the fact that people in power care only about themselves and run lower classes into the ground is one of the worst things about our society and fight against this is one of cornerstones of the Lost MC's philosophy.

I can't imagine a leader, who kills almost all of his soldiers.

 

Thanks for your beautiful and sensible answer by the way, it was a pleasure to read it!


Peachrocks
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#18

Posted 16 April 2014 - 04:24 PM

Holy f*ck, you're oddly committed to this...
I'll try to re-reason with you when I feel like a two hour text disection project, but until then, team Johnny!

Yeah there's an odd tone of fanaticism in the message here and it's really hard to reason with it. I had enough of that from Trevor fanboys, I don't really want to deal with it again especially over something like this...
The only odd tone of fanaticism on this forum is you guys, protecting Johnny Klebitz together by all costs, claiming as fanboys anyone who has something to say.
I personally liked Johnny more before I see you bunch of fanboys here.

Case and point... Some of what you are saying has real merit and it's stuff I hadn't considered but the way in which you are saying it in such an antagonising manner makes me want to have nothing to do with it.

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#19

Posted 16 April 2014 - 07:26 PM

I can't imagine a leader, who kills almost all of his soldiers.

I can't imagine a leader, who kills his best soldiers for not being 'blind', brainless followers.

 

And how are Jim, Terry and Clay outcasts? How did they even get to their positions? Treasurer, Sergeant At Arms and Road Captain? Those are the respected ones. Stating that they are old, and only care about business and money is incorrect. They obviously enjoy hanging out with Johnny, having friendly races and killing 'assholes' in Gang Wars

 

About the diamond deal, Luis screwed up the deal. Would Johnny ever see that precious money bag that would help out The Lost big time? I thought it was a good move to take it. If it wasn't for Luis, both Niko and Johnny would have been happy people, but the story is the way it is :p

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nobum62
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#20

Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:38 PM

ray is honest? no he's not. if you kill niko in the museum mission, this is what ray says:

 

http://youtu.be/EWrEbVmOZBE?t=54s

 

f*ck ray, he deserved to be betrayed

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chainsoar
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#21

Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:52 PM

You realise, of course, that Billy Grey was an unpredictable loud mouthed racist bigot who never got his drug habit under control and repeatedly dragged his unwilling 'brothers' into fights of his own making by screaming at them about 'loyalty' while failing to do absolutely anything of value for them in return, ever?

 

Right?

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#22

Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:59 PM

ray is honest? no he's not. if you kill niko in the museum mission, this is what ray says:

 

http://youtu.be/EWrEbVmOZBE?t=54s

 

f*ck ray, he deserved to be betrayed

I think the question isn't if Ray deserved to be betrayed, it's whether or not betraying him was a smart thing to do, for Johnny or the club that he's supposed to be leading.

 

And the linked quote may make Ray sound like a dick, but he doesn't really come across as dishonest, at least not at that point. If he was planning to rip Johnny off, why didn't he tell Niko at the restaurant to kill Johnny and take the money? There was no one in earshot he needed to lie to, and Niko probably would have done it without complaint.

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B Dawg
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#23

Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:53 PM

You realise, of course, that Billy Grey was an unpredictable loud mouthed racist bigot who never got his drug habit under control and repeatedly dragged his unwilling 'brothers' into fights of his own making by screaming at them about 'loyalty' while failing to do absolutely anything of value for them in return, ever?

 

Right?

Racist bigot you say? Then why isn't he with the Angels Of Death :lol: he would have fit in with them anyway.

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#24

Posted 16 April 2014 - 10:40 PM

I change my mind. I want out of this discussion.

Jesus, man. I know it's weird coming from me, but "it's just a game".

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trailerparkboys420
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#25

Posted 17 April 2014 - 01:03 AM

When you said Johnny took the title of presidency in the club without asking "would prove your thesis incorrect". He's entitled to become president because he is the vice president, and yes Billy has made some successes with the heroin and weakening the Angels of Death but they are still very risky decisions that if even Johnny was loyal, Billy's arrogant, sarcastic way of handling business (especially with someone like Ray Boccino) could've landed the club down the wrong path and don't forget the Angels of Death were a worldwide motorcycle club, so Johnny has every right to be paranoid about ripping off the heroin and the triads could have retaliated as well. I've got to be honest here though, but as much as I like Johnny, I think you've brought up such an overlooked topic that it stirs up my opinions about Johnny and Billy.


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#26

Posted 17 April 2014 - 04:45 AM

Case and point... Some of what you are saying has real merit and it's stuff I hadn't considered but the way in which you are saying it in such an antagonising manner makes me want to have nothing to do with it.

Don't.

 

 

I change my mind. I want out of this discussion.

Jesus, man. I know it's weird coming from me, but "it's just a game".

Don't worry, it doesn't look weird. It looks hypocritical.

 

 

ray is honest? no he's not. if you kill niko in the museum mission, this is what ray says:

 

http://youtu.be/EWrEbVmOZBE?t=54s

 

f*ck ray, he deserved to be betrayed

 

By regretting Niko's death in sarcastic manner? I don't think so.

 

 

You realise, of course, that Billy Grey was an unpredictable loud mouthed racist bigot who never got his drug habit under control and repeatedly dragged his unwilling 'brothers' into fights of his own making by screaming at them about 'loyalty' while failing to do absolutely anything of value for them in return, ever?

 

Right?

Funny, Johnny destroyed his club by his personal antipathy for Ray Boccino and later died because of drug habit.

You know that, right?

 

When you said Johnny took the title of presidency in the club without asking "would prove your thesis incorrect". He's entitled to become president because he is the vice president, and yes Billy has made some successes with the heroin and weakening the Angels of Death but they are still very risky decisions that if even Johnny was loyal, Billy's arrogant, sarcastic way of handling business (especially with someone like Ray Boccino) could've landed the club down the wrong path and don't forget the Angels of Death were a worldwide motorcycle club, so Johnny has every right to be paranoid about ripping off the heroin and the triads could have retaliated as well. I've got to be honest here though, but as much as I like Johnny, I think you've brought up such an overlooked topic that it stirs up my opinions about Johnny and Billy.

1) Obviously, if members don't want you to be the president you can't just take the title. You need to put it up to discussion.

2) Billy's arrogant way of handling business (especially with someone like Ray Boccino) didn't land the club down any wrong path. And Johnny's arrogant way of handling business (especially with Ray Bocino) actually did.


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#27

Posted 17 April 2014 - 04:56 AM

I think we found the CantThinkOfOne of the TLaD section... And by the way, I can swear when I f*cking want.  

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chainsoar
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#28

Posted 17 April 2014 - 05:03 AM Edited by chainsoar, 17 April 2014 - 05:04 AM.

Holy sh*t, the unwarranted aggression in here...I should've read more of the thread before posting. I'm done.

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trailerparkboys420
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#29

Posted 17 April 2014 - 05:20 AM

I think this guy works for R* or something. Something smells f*ckey

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Dr. Robotnik
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#30

Posted 17 April 2014 - 05:29 AM Edited by Dr. Robotnik, 17 April 2014 - 06:07 AM.

Can't you just take the middle ground and say Billy and Johnny were both sh*t leaders? I think that was what the DLC meant to imply anyway.   :p





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