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Do you agree with R* and their ridiculous excuse? 3D and HD universe..

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ChrisMathers3501
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#91

Posted 04 April 2014 - 05:28 PM

 

Willie was an annoying dickhead in V, but he sounded serious in Vice City.
Your theory could be true, but might not apply to all characters.


Willy was the only member of LV that didn't appear in Vice City.

 

LoveFist-Artwork.jpg

 

Oh, oh, what's that?  What's that on the left?  An appearance by Willy MacTavish.


freedom
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#92

Posted 04 April 2014 - 05:31 PM Edited by freedom, 04 April 2014 - 05:34 PM.

It's more like if characters from the Tim Burton movies had random cameos in the Nolan films. That wouldnt make sense would it?

 
Dude, Batman is a pretty major character in both Tim Burton's Batman movies & Nolan's Batman movies.
 
Characters can be in both, there is no conflict there. This is the point in having different universes; to reinterpret characters & places in fiction.
I'm talking about Jim Carrey's Riddler showing up in a Nolan film. Wouldn't happen since they are separate universes.

 

You still aren't grasping the concept. The same character can be portrayed in the exact same way, by the exact same actor, in a different universe without conflict. Why? Because it's a different universe! It's not the same instance of the character & is not canonical with any other universe of the fiction, no matter how similar. Just like in the hypothetical multiverse another you could exist in another universe exactly the same as you are in this universe, but it's not the same instance of the you that is in this universe.

You're right though, of course Jim Carrey's Riddler would never have shown up in Nolans films, because that would be goofy & probably confusing for alot of people, not because the portrayal &/or interpretation of characters are locked to one universe.

 

 

There is nothing complex to understand about the "universes" concept. It's not a science.

 

Well, no offence, but you seem to be having trouble with it, as do some others here.

 

 

It's just what R* decides to do. You're never going to see Tommy Vercetti in a GTA game ever again unless R* decides so (which isnt likely) It would be boring to have the same protagonists over and over, but the fans cant accept that. Hence the "universe" explanation.

 

It's got nothing to do with the fans not accepting it, that would be childish. Rockstar started afresh because they wanted to reinterpret the locations they'd done previously & they didn't want to feel the need to account for the inevitable inconsistencies & prior fiction of said locations & characters.

 


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#93

Posted 04 April 2014 - 05:41 PM

I honestly couldn't care less. Its R*'s product so their excuse is not ridiculous, its their vision for the game. The lack of TV or CJ has not effected these games one bit.


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#94

Posted 04 April 2014 - 06:51 PM

 

 

Willie was an annoying dickhead in V, but he sounded serious in Vice City.
Your theory could be true, but might not apply to all characters.


Willy was the only member of LV that didn't appear in Vice City.

 

LoveFist-Artwork.jpg

 

Oh, oh, what's that?  What's that on the left?  An appearance by Willy MacTavish.

 

 

He didn't appear in the game... And that's why Chips can't say that he sounded different in the 3D era, because he never had a speaking appearence in Vice City.


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#95

Posted 04 April 2014 - 06:57 PM Edited by Zee, 04 April 2014 - 07:11 PM.

It's more like if characters from the Tim Burton movies had random cameos in the Nolan films. That wouldnt make sense would it?

 
Dude, Batman is a pretty major character in both Tim Burton's Batman movies & Nolan's Batman movies.
 
Characters can be in both, there is no conflict there. This is the point in having different universes; to reinterpret characters & places in fiction.
I'm talking about Jim Carrey's Riddler showing up in a Nolan film. Wouldn't happen since they are separate universes.
 
You still aren't grasping the concept. The same character can be portrayed in the exact same way, by the exact same actor, in a different universe without conflict. Why? Because it's a different universe! It's not the same instance of the character & is not canonical with any other universe of the fiction, no matter how similar. Just like in the hypothetical multiverse another you could exist in another universe exactly the same as you are in this universe, but it's not the same instance of the you that is in this universe.
You're right though, of course Jim Carrey's Riddler would never have shown up in Nolans films, because that would be goofy & probably confusing for alot of people, not because the portrayal &/or interpretation of characters are locked to one universe.
 
 

There is nothing complex to understand about the "universes" concept. It's not a science.

 
Well, no offence, but you seem to be having trouble with it, as do some others here.
 
 

It's just what R* decides to do. You're never going to see Tommy Vercetti in a GTA game ever again unless R* decides so (which isnt likely) It would be boring to have the same protagonists over and over, but the fans cant accept that. Hence the "universe" explanation.

 
It's got nothing to do with the fans not accepting it, that would be childish. Rockstar started afresh because they wanted to reinterpret the locations they'd done previously & they didn't want to feel the need to account for the inevitable inconsistencies & prior fiction of said locations & characters.
That's the thing, though. I understand they want to do that and have no issue with it. You're actually the one who's not understanding here. I have no problem with Rockstar starting over and using new characters. I'm just saying it's the same universe.

I mean, Willy is not the same Willy from Vice City? Even though he looks and sounds the exact same and has the same voice actor? What?

Willy was in Vice City, he was in the rigged Limo, and Tommy saved him. 30 years later, he's in Whisky a Go Go in Los Santos 2013. Why would that be so hard to accept? It's years later and there is no need to mention tommy so he's not mentioned. You dont need it to be an entire different universe to understand why tommy isnt there. Willy in V is LITERALLY like having Jim Carrey as the Riddler in the Nolan films, because that's exactly what happened here. Same actor and everything. It's the same guy.

And you keep comparing GTA to comic books, and it's apples to oranges. When you literally have characters from the old games appear in the new games, yeah, they're still connected. It's the same universe, but time has passed and there all new characters in the world. I can accept that without needing them to be quarantined to an entire alternate universe.
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#96

Posted 04 April 2014 - 07:11 PM Edited by liquidussnake119, 04 April 2014 - 07:11 PM.

If people want to believe it's all connected just let them.  No use getting worked up about it when they're never going to let it go.


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#97

Posted 04 April 2014 - 07:11 PM Edited by Ash_735, 04 April 2014 - 07:13 PM.

and has the same voice actor? What?

Willy was in Vice City, he was in the rigged Limo, and Tommy saved him. 30 years later, he's in Whisky a Go Go in Los Santos 2013. Why would that be so hard to accept? It's years later and there is no need to mention tommy so he's not mentioned. You dont need it to be an entire different universe to understand why tommy isnt there. Willy in V is LITERALLY like having Jim Carrey as the Riddler in the Nolan films, because that's exactly what happened here. Same actor and everything. It's the same guy.


Erm, Willie was voiced by Craig Conner (Rockstar North's audio lead) in GTAV, he was voiced by someone else in Vice City, unless you're saying all Scottish people sound the same? :p He even looks different, granted his only showing in VC was for that one mission, but detail wise he's completely different.

You say comparing it to comic books is like comparing Apples to Oranges, well guess what, they're not different, it's even the same method Lazlow spoke about many times in chats when describing the difference universes "think of it like Comic Books, that's what we went with".

edit:

If people want to believe it's all connected just let them.  No use getting worked up about it when they're never going to let it go.


I'm not getting worked up, just pointing out that it does make sense, and it's something that's been done in many video games, movies and comics, but apparently it can't be done in the Holy Grand Theft Auto despite Rockstar already doing so when they ditched the 2D Era.

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#98

Posted 04 April 2014 - 07:11 PM

I want III characters to return.. And i want PC version of the game. Keep dreaming.


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#99

Posted 04 April 2014 - 07:17 PM Edited by Zee, 04 April 2014 - 07:18 PM.

and has the same voice actor? What?Willy was in Vice City, he was in the rigged Limo, and Tommy saved him. 30 years later, he's in Whisky a Go Go in Los Santos 2013. Why would that be so hard to accept? It's years later and there is no need to mention tommy so he's not mentioned. You dont need it to be an entire different universe to understand why tommy isnt there. Willy in V is LITERALLY like having Jim Carrey as the Riddler in the Nolan films, because that's exactly what happened here. Same actor and everything. It's the same guy.

Erm, Willie was voiced by Craig Conner (Rockstar North's audio lead) in GTAV, he was voiced by someone else in Vice City, unless you're saying all Scottish people sound the same? :p He even looks different, granted his only showing in VC was for that one mission, but detail wise he's completely different.You say comparing it to comic books is like comparing Apples to Oranges, well guess what, they're not different, it's even the same method Lazlow spoke about many times in chats when describing the difference universes "think of it like Comic Books, that's what we went with".
Alright granted, if its not the same voice actor from Vice City then i admit I'm wrong there.

As for what Lazlow said, I think the fans think more about this "universe" thing than the creators do. I mean, really, every time they talk about this subject they say something different. They basically intentionally left it ambiguous so that the fans can interpret it how they like.


Some fans think its the same world, and simply time has passed and the characters are different, and the cities just look different because its a suspension of disbelief to aid the narrative.

Other fans will think GTA is actually about a series of islands that exist in alternate dimensional temporal realms with rifts in the 4th dimension where there are Characters that sound, look and act like their exact counterparts in the OTHER dimension but due to some weird twilight zone logic they actually different or something, well thats okay too.

Ultimately, you, the fan get to make up what you want, because chances are you're thinking about it harder than R* are.
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TheDeaconBosco
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#100

Posted 04 April 2014 - 07:38 PM Edited by TheDeaconBosco, 04 April 2014 - 07:38 PM.

 

 

and has the same voice actor? What?Willy was in Vice City, he was in the rigged Limo, and Tommy saved him. 30 years later, he's in Whisky a Go Go in Los Santos 2013. Why would that be so hard to accept? It's years later and there is no need to mention tommy so he's not mentioned. You dont need it to be an entire different universe to understand why tommy isnt there. Willy in V is LITERALLY like having Jim Carrey as the Riddler in the Nolan films, because that's exactly what happened here. Same actor and everything. It's the same guy.

Erm, Willie was voiced by Craig Conner (Rockstar North's audio lead) in GTAV, he was voiced by someone else in Vice City, unless you're saying all Scottish people sound the same? :p He even looks different, granted his only showing in VC was for that one mission, but detail wise he's completely different.You say comparing it to comic books is like comparing Apples to Oranges, well guess what, they're not different, it's even the same method Lazlow spoke about many times in chats when describing the difference universes "think of it like Comic Books, that's what we went with".
Alright granted, if its not the same voice actor from Vice City then i admit I'm wrong there.

As for what Lazlow said, I think the fans think more about this "universe" thing than the creators do. I mean, really, every time they talk about this subject they say something different. They basically intentionally left it ambiguous so that the fans can interpret it how they like.


Some fans think its the same world, and simply time has passed and the characters are different, and the cities just look different because its a suspension of disbelief to aid the narrative.

Other fans will think GTA is actually about a series of islands that exist in alternate dimensional temporal realms with rifts in the 4th dimension where there are Characters that sound, look and act like their exact counterparts in the OTHER dimension but due to some weird twilight zone logic they actually different or something, well thats okay too.

Ultimately, you, the fan get to make up what you want, because chances are you're thinking about it harder than R* are.

 

Willy wasn't in Vice City though... He was the only member of the band that didn't appear in the game. I think you and Ash are mistaking him for Dick, which was the one with the Soccer Jersey Kilt, and Ginger hair back in VC.

 

Willy's ONLY appearance besides V is in one of VC's art works, in which he inexplicably had black hair back then.

 

Willy-GTAVC-artwork.png

 

Want some proof? Listen to what Kent Paul has to say about that.

 

 

Listen 14 seconds in, and you'll see.


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#101

Posted 04 April 2014 - 07:40 PM

They'd have to pay the voice actors (who are mostly big name actors) a huge sum to return considering how expensive these games are becoming. They use no names because it's cheaper, and they can use more money to build the game.


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#102

Posted 04 April 2014 - 07:41 PM Edited by liquidussnake119, 04 April 2014 - 07:42 PM.

 

Ultimately, you, the fan get to make up what you want, because chances are you're thinking about it harder than R* are.

 

Best stance.  People get too hung up on canon where it doesn't matter much.

I mean, if you want to believe that it's all connected or the same universe, that's cool. 

 

I like to believe that events from the 3D era happened, but just slightly different.  Like instead of wasting his time in the hood after getting Sweet out, CJ decided to instead go back to being a real player in Venturas.  That's why Grove Street is still run by Ballas.


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#103

Posted 04 April 2014 - 07:45 PM

and has the same voice actor? What?Willy was in Vice City, he was in the rigged Limo, and Tommy saved him. 30 years later, he's in Whisky a Go Go in Los Santos 2013. Why would that be so hard to accept? It's years later and there is no need to mention tommy so he's not mentioned. You dont need it to be an entire different universe to understand why tommy isnt there. Willy in V is LITERALLY like having Jim Carrey as the Riddler in the Nolan films, because that's exactly what happened here. Same actor and everything. It's the same guy.

Erm, Willie was voiced by Craig Conner (Rockstar North's audio lead) in GTAV, he was voiced by someone else in Vice City, unless you're saying all Scottish people sound the same? :p He even looks different, granted his only showing in VC was for that one mission, but detail wise he's completely different.You say comparing it to comic books is like comparing Apples to Oranges, well guess what, they're not different, it's even the same method Lazlow spoke about many times in chats when describing the difference universes "think of it like Comic Books, that's what we went with".
Alright granted, if its not the same voice actor from Vice City then i admit I'm wrong there.
As for what Lazlow said, I think the fans think more about this "universe" thing than the creators do. I mean, really, every time they talk about this subject they say something different. They basically intentionally left it ambiguous so that the fans can interpret it how they like.
Some fans think its the same world, and simply time has passed and the characters are different, and the cities just look different because its a suspension of disbelief to aid the narrative.
Other fans will think GTA is actually about a series of islands that exist in alternate dimensional temporal realms with rifts in the 4th dimension where there are Characters that sound, look and act like their exact counterparts in the OTHER dimension but due to some weird twilight zone logic they actually different or something, well thats okay too.
Ultimately, you, the fan get to make up what you want, because chances are you're thinking about it harder than R* are.
Willy wasn't in Vice City though... He was the only member of the band that didn't appear in the game. I think you and Ash are mistaking him for Dick, which was the one with the Soccer Jersey Kilt, and Ginger hair back in VC.
 
Willy's ONLY appearance besides V is in one of VC's art works, in which he inexplicably had black hair back then.
 
Willy-GTAVC-artwork.png
 
Want some proof? Listen to what Kent Paul has to say about that.
 

 
Listen 14 seconds in, and you'll see.

Yeah like I said im not too familiar with the members of Love Fist. It's hard to remember since it 's been so long and they had a small part, but I mean, come on! It's Love Fist, THE band from Vice City! If they wanted to start fresh, couldnt they have used a new character? If the point isnt that its a nice little nod to the old fans, then what the hell is the point???

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#104

Posted 04 April 2014 - 07:47 PM

 

He didn't appear in the game... And that's why Chips can't say that he sounded different in the 3D era, because he never had a speaking appearence in Vice City.

 

He didn't NEED to speak in Vice City.  The fact that he was in GTA: Vice City at ALL, even just in an artwork, shows that when Trevor went into the Tequi-La-La bar looking for a tooth, he came face to face with a 3D character in an HD setting, which means, with no stretch of logic or leap of the imagination whatsoever, that if R* wanted to bring back Tommy or CJ or Donald Love, or WHO THE f*ck EVER from the 3D games, they easily could, with no problem whatsoever, but they haven't, and that's that.

 

Also, let me take this moment to address something about the two versions of Liberty City (there's actually 3 counting the top-down era but I won't get into that).  The 3D era had the Three Families and the Sicilians and the HD era had the Five Families in the Commission and Pegorino's Alderney mob.  Okay.  So they never came into contact with one another.  What's the big deal?  I mean, GTAV still has most of the gangs from San Andreas, GTAIV just happened to bring some new mafia families to the table is all.  Besides, WHY would we have heard from the Three Families anyway?  The Leones destroyed the other two before their leader was killed in GTA3, so the idea that they have problems of their own would be an understatement.  sh*t happens off-screen too, you know.  It's not like we were there to watch Toni get fat or Johnny get hooked on meth.

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#105

Posted 04 April 2014 - 07:53 PM

He didn't appear in the game... And that's why Chips can't say that he sounded different in the 3D era, because he never had a speaking appearence in Vice City.

 
He didn't NEED to speak in Vice City.  The fact that he was in GTA: Vice City at ALL, even just in an artwork, shows that when Trevor went into the Tequi-La-La bar looking for a tooth, he came face to face with a 3D character in an HD setting, which means, with no stretch of logic or leap of the imagination whatsoever, that if R* wanted to bring back Tommy or CJ or Donald Love, or WHO THE f*ck EVER from the 3D games, they easily could, with no problem whatsoever, but they haven't, and that's that.
 
Also, let me take this moment to address something about the two versions of Liberty City (there's actually 3 counting the top-down era but I won't get into that).  The 3D era had the Three Families and the Sicilians and the HD era had the Five Families in the Commission and Pegorino's Alderney mob.  Okay.  So they never came into contact with one another.  What's the big deal?  I mean, GTAV still has most of the gangs from San Andreas, GTAIV just happened to bring some new mafia families to the table is all.  Besides, WHY would we have heard from the Three Families anyway?  The Leones destroyed the other two before their leader was killed in GTA3, so the idea that they have problems of their own would be an understatement.  sh*t happens off-screen too, you know.  It's not like we were there to watch Toni get fat or Johnny get hooked on meth.

This is where I'm coming from. I can accept the fact that over time, some things changed in Liberty and LS, and some things stayed the same. I can accept that without it needing to be some alternate universe or another Dimension or some sh*t.

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#106

Posted 04 April 2014 - 08:03 PM

Maybe one day, Donald Love will return from where ever he came and explain to us what the big idea is.

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#107

Posted 04 April 2014 - 08:05 PM

It's not an excuse though, it's a design decision. 3D era is done bro, sorry you can't let go.


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#108

Posted 04 April 2014 - 08:11 PM Edited by Zee, 04 April 2014 - 08:12 PM.

It's not an excuse though, it's a design decision. 3D era is done bro, sorry you can't let go.

....Except for all the characters, brands, and in the case of gta4, even Donald Love himself.

6qYskYF.jpg

Other than that, the 3D will never bee heard of again, bro. Totally.

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#109

Posted 04 April 2014 - 08:12 PM Edited by Ash_735, 04 April 2014 - 08:14 PM.

Also, let me take this moment to address something about the two versions of Liberty City (there's actually 3 counting the top-down era but I won't get into that).  The 3D era had the Three Families and the Sicilians and the HD era had the Five Families in the Commission and Pegorino's Alderney mob.  Okay.  So they never came into contact with one another.  What's the big deal?  I mean, GTAV still has most of the gangs from San Andreas, GTAIV just happened to bring some new mafia families to the table is all.  Besides, WHY would we have heard from the Three Families anyway?  The Leones destroyed the other two before their leader was killed in GTA3, so the idea that they have problems of their own would be an understatement.  sh*t happens off-screen too, you know.  It's not like we were there to watch Toni get fat or Johnny get hooked on meth.


Just to dispute this, in GTA IV it's actually detailed in Police Records AND on the Internet that the Five Familes have been around dating back to the 1940s, face it, the events of GTA3 DID NOT happen in the HD era.

I swear, do I have to bring out Batman again?

edit: @Above, now we're just getting into Easter Eggs, I suppose you think CJ is now a model for Fruntalot?

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#110

Posted 04 April 2014 - 08:39 PM

Right. I understand it now. GTAIII and 4 are completely separate universes, and nothing from gta4 is the same. Also, every other game is also part of the Grand Theft Auto canon, it's just a different "Universe". Even Battletoads.

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#111

Posted 04 April 2014 - 10:08 PM

they are different universes but they are also the same universe

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#112

Posted 04 April 2014 - 11:00 PM

Willy got lost in the kaze and ended up in the HD universe for 30 years


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#113

Posted 04 April 2014 - 11:17 PM

250px-Lazlow-GTAVC-artwork.jpgLazlow_cara.jpg
 

 

 

Same name different people?


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#114

Posted 04 April 2014 - 11:23 PM

 

Also, let me take this moment to address something about the two versions of Liberty City (there's actually 3 counting the top-down era but I won't get into that).  The 3D era had the Three Families and the Sicilians and the HD era had the Five Families in the Commission and Pegorino's Alderney mob.  Okay.  So they never came into contact with one another.  What's the big deal?  I mean, GTAV still has most of the gangs from San Andreas, GTAIV just happened to bring some new mafia families to the table is all.  Besides, WHY would we have heard from the Three Families anyway?  The Leones destroyed the other two before their leader was killed in GTA3, so the idea that they have problems of their own would be an understatement.  sh*t happens off-screen too, you know.  It's not like we were there to watch Toni get fat or Johnny get hooked on meth.


Just to dispute this, in GTA IV it's actually detailed in Police Records AND on the Internet that the Five Familes have been around dating back to the 1940s, face it, the events of GTA3 DID NOT happen in the HD era.

I swear, do I have to bring out Batman again?

edit: @Above, now we're just getting into Easter Eggs, I suppose you think CJ is now a model for Fruntalot?

 

 

 

To substitute Batman for some guy named Ralph, "I don't give a f*ck about RALPH!"

 

But in a more polite rejoinder, CJ modeling for Fruntalot?  ...Well, why not?  Does it make any less sense than him working for Zero's dork ass?

 

It's not an excuse though, it's a design decision. 3D era is done bro, sorry you can't let go.

 

It's an excuse for a poor design decision.  Even R* knows when their sh*t stinks.  Nobody else seems to though, which is why they ARE the best.


250px-Lazlow-GTAVC-artwork.jpgLazlow_cara.jpg
 

 

 

Same name different people?

Only if a haircut makes you a different person.

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#115

Posted 04 April 2014 - 11:46 PM

Ahh I see you're taking the "f*ck logic IM RIGHT" stance here. Well I think we can end this here.

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#116

Posted 04 April 2014 - 11:56 PM

Ahh I see you're taking the "f*ck logic IM RIGHT" stance here. Well I think we can end this here.

If anyone is saying "f*ck logic" its Rockstar for not keeping the 3D and HD era characters separate.
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#117

Posted 05 April 2014 - 12:07 AM

250px-Lazlow-GTAVC-artwork.jpgLazlow_cara.jpg
 

 

 

Same name different people?

That could be aging and a different haircut. 


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#118

Posted 05 April 2014 - 12:13 AM Edited by ainsz, 05 April 2014 - 12:22 AM.

Ahh I see you're taking the "f*ck logic IM RIGHT" stance here. Well I think we can end this here.

If anyone is saying "f*ck logic" its Rockstar for not keeping the 3D and HD era characters separate.

You don't think that the odd cross over of certain things from the 3D and 2D era to HD are purely for the sake of fan service and to pay homage, adding to the superficial lore GTA has.

Rockstar have done well to differentiate the 3 'eras' allowing them to reinvent the series with each hardware leap but by allowing certain parts of the series to continue throughout; such as the series' legacy of in game branding and pop culture, the series has gained a recognisable identity.

Though Rockstar like to f*ck with continuity as well. I was pissed when I saw Lazlow in person and given a major role in V.

BlackNoise
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#119

Posted 05 April 2014 - 12:41 AM

Anybody who says, "R* could just update their look" doesn't understand R*'s reasoning. They don't want to. Why would they? The characters in the 3D era are based on the stylized art we use to see as box art and in other areas of the game. It's not just the limitations of the consoles at that time.  

 

Max Payne is a terrible example, because it's a series, but it's also the name of the main character. It was also never supposed to be as stylized as the characters in the 3D era GTAs.  

 

If R* ever remakes the 3D era GTA games, they will probably do it by getting closer to that original concept art. They wont update the characters to make them more realistic. That 3D era aesthetic is iconic for the series, and I'm glad R* respects that. 

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    That's, just, like, your opinion man

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#120

Posted 05 April 2014 - 12:56 AM

Why was it that these sort of threads never popped up after the release of IV? It's was known the moment we saw a difference between III LC and IV LC, but nobody complained "Why the f*ck is Claude?" or "Where the f*ck is Toni?"

It seems here that if Rockstar screws with SA it hits closer to home than any other GTA. And I fail to understand why.
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