Quantcast

Jump to content

» «
Photo

"There's always a man, he just wears a different uniform."

23 replies to this topic
Drunken Cowboy
  • Drunken Cowboy

    Proud Asshole

  • BUSTED!
  • Joined: 18 Sep 2013
  • United-States
  • Best Poster [GTA] 2014
    Best Topic [GTA] 2013

#1

Posted 28 March 2014 - 02:46 AM

When Johnny told this to Leavis on their second encounter, what exactly did it mean?

I interpreted it as like "We all have our own causes and ambitions" or something like that, but it's an interesting phrase that I haven't heard anywhere else.

Any idea what it means?


Niobium
  • Niobium

    fu*k your santa hats. they're too mainstream

  • Members
  • Joined: 13 Oct 2013
  • Canada
  • April Fools Winner 2015

#2

Posted 28 March 2014 - 03:09 AM

I think it means, "It doesn't matter what the uniform is. He is still always a man." It means that the person's appearance doesn't matter.

universetwisters
  • universetwisters

    Traum - Tagtraum - Am Fenster

  • Members
  • Joined: 26 Feb 2011
  • United-States
  • Best Workshop 2014
    Most Improved 2014
    Funniest Member 2014
    April Fools Winner 2015

#3

Posted 28 March 2014 - 03:21 AM

I think it has to do with authority, like there's always going to be someone in a higher position than you. 

 

This is going to be debatable, no doubt, but just for the sake of explanation, I'm going to say that Johnny's pretty low on the ladder of authority. Now take a look at the cops. They try to arrest Johnny and put a stop to his fun and they wear badges and the like. Then take a look at Stubbs. He tries to do the same, stopping the fun of whatever political party he opposes, or whatever, politics aren't my strong point. But yeah, he wears a suit and tie, compared to the cops, who wear badges. So in that context, which I'm assuming is the literal context of the phrase, there's always a "man", but he wears a different uniform, with "uniform" standing in for their occupation or place on the ladder of authority.

 

Not only that, but when you hear Johnny use the word "man" in that sentence, the old allusion of the saying "the man" being used by hippies, bikers, people stuck in the 1960s-1980s, etc. being used to refer to the head of "the establishment", or whatever they're protesting against. I'm probably overthinking this way too big, but that's just my take on the meaning.

  • archiebunker, B Dawg, HaythamKenway and 3 others like this

Drunken Cowboy
  • Drunken Cowboy

    Proud Asshole

  • BUSTED!
  • Joined: 18 Sep 2013
  • United-States
  • Best Poster [GTA] 2014
    Best Topic [GTA] 2013

#4

Posted 28 March 2014 - 03:26 AM

I think it has to do with authority, like there's always going to be someone in a higher position than you. 

 

This is going to be debatable, no doubt, but just for the sake of explanation, I'm going to say that Johnny's pretty low on the ladder of authority. Now take a look at the cops. They try to arrest Johnny and put a stop to his fun and they wear badges and the like. Then take a look at Stubbs. He tries to do the same, stopping the fun of whatever political party he opposes, or whatever, politics aren't my strong point. But yeah, he wears a suit and tie, compared to the cops, who wear badges. So in that context, which I'm assuming is the literal context of the phrase, there's always a "man", but he wears a different uniform, with "uniform" standing in for their occupation or place on the ladder of authority.

 

Not only that, but when you hear Johnny use the word "man" in that sentence, the old allusion of the saying "the man" being used by hippies, bikers, people stuck in the 1960s-1980s, etc. being used to refer to the head of "the establishment", or whatever they're protesting against. I'm probably overthinking this way too big, but that's just my take on the meaning.

 

Does he say "a man" or "THE man"? I'm like 80% sure it's the former (since I beat TLaD five times), but yeah. I suppose your first theory isn't bad. I don't think it's as literal as nobum interpreted it to be, but I'm still not sure it's anything we proposed.


And while Googling the quote to see if it was like an old adage or something, I found this.

It's amazing what kind of fanboyism I missed out on buying this game a couple years late.

http://www.wikihow.c...-Johnny-Klebitz

  • universetwisters likes this

universetwisters
  • universetwisters

    Traum - Tagtraum - Am Fenster

  • Members
  • Joined: 26 Feb 2011
  • United-States
  • Best Workshop 2014
    Most Improved 2014
    Funniest Member 2014
    April Fools Winner 2015

#5

Posted 28 March 2014 - 03:29 AM

 

I think it has to do with authority, like there's always going to be someone in a higher position than you. 

 

This is going to be debatable, no doubt, but just for the sake of explanation, I'm going to say that Johnny's pretty low on the ladder of authority. Now take a look at the cops. They try to arrest Johnny and put a stop to his fun and they wear badges and the like. Then take a look at Stubbs. He tries to do the same, stopping the fun of whatever political party he opposes, or whatever, politics aren't my strong point. But yeah, he wears a suit and tie, compared to the cops, who wear badges. So in that context, which I'm assuming is the literal context of the phrase, there's always a "man", but he wears a different uniform, with "uniform" standing in for their occupation or place on the ladder of authority.

 

Not only that, but when you hear Johnny use the word "man" in that sentence, the old allusion of the saying "the man" being used by hippies, bikers, people stuck in the 1960s-1980s, etc. being used to refer to the head of "the establishment", or whatever they're protesting against. I'm probably overthinking this way too big, but that's just my take on the meaning.

 

Does he say "a man" or "THE man"? I'm like 80% sure it's the former (since I beat TLaD five times), but yeah. I suppose your first theory isn't bad. I don't think it's as literal as nobum interpreted it to be, but I'm still not sure it's anything we proposed.

 

 

He said "a man" in the cutscene, but I'm going off on a whim and assuming that when he said "man", he meant an authoritative figure, such as how people back then used "man", "the man", etc. to describe those kinds of people. I remember my dad saying that a few times and his vocabulary was pretty much spot-on with Johnny's, what with him calling people "buddy" regardless of their context and so forth, just to name an example. You gotta give it to Rockstar for making accurate dialogue for who is basically the "blue collar patriot" of IV's trio.

 

I heard in an interview with Luis' voice actor that they didn't get any of his dialogue anywhere near accurate to real life and the voice actor himself had to change it around.


Drunken Cowboy
  • Drunken Cowboy

    Proud Asshole

  • BUSTED!
  • Joined: 18 Sep 2013
  • United-States
  • Best Poster [GTA] 2014
    Best Topic [GTA] 2013

#6

Posted 28 March 2014 - 03:38 AM

Sounds interesting.
Can you link that interview if you still know where it is?

Niobium
  • Niobium

    fu*k your santa hats. they're too mainstream

  • Members
  • Joined: 13 Oct 2013
  • Canada
  • April Fools Winner 2015

#7

Posted 28 March 2014 - 03:46 AM Edited by nobum62, 29 March 2014 - 03:46 AM.


I think it has to do with authority, like there's always going to be someone in a higher position than you. 
 
This is going to be debatable, no doubt, but just for the sake of explanation, I'm going to say that Johnny's pretty low on the ladder of authority. Now take a look at the cops. They try to arrest Johnny and put a stop to his fun and they wear badges and the like. Then take a look at Stubbs. He tries to do the same, stopping the fun of whatever political party he opposes, or whatever, politics aren't my strong point. But yeah, he wears a suit and tie, compared to the cops, who wear badges. So in that context, which I'm assuming is the literal context of the phrase, there's always a "man", but he wears a different uniform, with "uniform" standing in for their occupation or place on the ladder of authority.
 
Not only that, but when you hear Johnny use the word "man" in that sentence, the old allusion of the saying "the man" being used by hippies, bikers, people stuck in the 1960s-1980s, etc. being used to refer to the head of "the establishment", or whatever they're protesting against. I'm probably overthinking this way too big, but that's just my take on the meaning.

 
Does he say "a man" or "THE man"? I'm like 80% sure it's the former (since I beat TLaD five times), but yeah. I suppose your first theory isn't bad. I don't think it's as literal as nobum interpreted it to be, but I'm still not sure it's anything we proposed.

And while Googling the quote to see if it was like an old adage or something, I found this.
It's amazing what kind of fanboyism I missed out on buying this game a couple years late.
http://www.wikihow.c...-Johnny-Klebitz
He called the police "the man" several times. Before Billy got arrested, when Johnny was riding his bike with professional ass-kisser Brian, he asks if Brian has ever been to jail. Brian says that "the only people who go to jail are the ones dumb enough to get thenselves caught. Except for Billy. He got unlucky." (He said Billy didn't count because he's a motherf*cking ass-kisser.) Johnny says that "it don't matter how smart you are. If the man wants you he'll eventually get you" or something like that. But he says "the man".
  • B Dawg and universetwisters like this

universetwisters
  • universetwisters

    Traum - Tagtraum - Am Fenster

  • Members
  • Joined: 26 Feb 2011
  • United-States
  • Best Workshop 2014
    Most Improved 2014
    Funniest Member 2014
    April Fools Winner 2015

#8

Posted 28 March 2014 - 04:01 AM

Sounds interesting.
Can you link that interview if you still know where it is?

 

I found the interview for you. Shame I couldn't find any interviews from Scott Hill, though.

 

@nobum62 - Considering that point, I do think Johnny's still got that 1970s vocabulary, what with referring to authoritative figures as a whole as "the man".


Raiden雷電
  • Raiden雷電

    I Am Lightning, The Rain Transformed

  • Members
  • Joined: 03 Sep 2011
  • United-States

#9

Posted 28 March 2014 - 04:15 AM Edited by TensaZangetsu, 28 March 2014 - 04:23 AM.

 

Sounds interesting.
Can you link that interview if you still know where it is?

 

I found the interview for you. Shame I couldn't find any interviews from Scott Hill, though.

 

@nobum62 - Considering that point, I do think Johnny's still got that 1970s vocabulary, what with referring to authoritative figures as a whole as "the man".

 

that was a pretty damn good interview, Mario seems like a pretty cool guy to hang out with.

 

Here is an old interview with him back from 2009:

 


universetwisters
  • universetwisters

    Traum - Tagtraum - Am Fenster

  • Members
  • Joined: 26 Feb 2011
  • United-States
  • Best Workshop 2014
    Most Improved 2014
    Funniest Member 2014
    April Fools Winner 2015

#10

Posted 28 March 2014 - 04:28 AM

that was a pretty damn good interview, Mario seems like a pretty cool guy to hang out with.

 

 

Here is an old interview with him back from 2009:

 

-snip-

 

 

I'd probably be able to hear him better if it wasn't for the music.

 

But yeah, I've read some interviews on him and he doesn't seem like the kind of person who would go off and kill dudes on a whim, or fit the role of Luis for that matter.

 

I think it's funny how I use my dad earlier in the thread as an example of someone who used "the man" in a vocabulary sense, and we bring up Luis. Luis is the Spanish equivalent for Lewis, which happened to be my Dad's name.  :ph34r:


Peachrocks
  • Peachrocks

    Peon

  • Members
  • Joined: 20 Jun 2013
  • None

#11

Posted 28 March 2014 - 04:30 AM Edited by Peachrocks, 28 March 2014 - 04:34 AM.

The man does usually refer to authority or in some cases societies standards and expectations. In this case it means someone to answer to or accountability.

 

Johnny's basically referring to the fact that he and The Lost is no longer free to do as it wishes because it's constantly caught up in Billy's meaningless wars which is why Johnny sounds and is so disillusioned throughout the story, particularly with Billy who presumably used to be different and less obsessed with war and more about 'having fun'.

 

Billy is the 'man' Johnny refers to here and why he wears a different uniform.

 

Let's just say one of the biggest reasons I like TLAD is how much this phrase and Johnny's dislike for conformity resonates with me.

  • B Dawg, Deadly Target, HaythamKenway and 1 other like this

Raiden雷電
  • Raiden雷電

    I Am Lightning, The Rain Transformed

  • Members
  • Joined: 03 Sep 2011
  • United-States

#12

Posted 28 March 2014 - 05:35 AM

 

that was a pretty damn good interview, Mario seems like a pretty cool guy to hang out with.

 

 

Here is an old interview with him back from 2009:

 

-snip-

 

 

I'd probably be able to hear him better if it wasn't for the music.

 

But yeah, I've read some interviews on him and he doesn't seem like the kind of person who would go off and kill dudes on a whim, or fit the role of Luis for that matter.

 

I think it's funny how I use my dad earlier in the thread as an example of someone who used "the man" in a vocabulary sense, and we bring up Luis. Luis is the Spanish equivalent for Lewis, which happened to be my Dad's name.  :ph34r:

 

He mentions in the interview though that he and Luis are very similar minus the killing and crimes and whatnot. He says he and his mother are the same way Luis and his mom are. I really wonder How it is for him in the clubs though in real life. He says something about money to get into the club. I wonder how many people he's had to knock out because they didn't follow the rules lol. It also mentions that he looks like Kratos from God of War without the body paint and facepaint. Can you just imagine him voicing Kratos? LOL!


Drunken Cowboy
  • Drunken Cowboy

    Proud Asshole

  • BUSTED!
  • Joined: 18 Sep 2013
  • United-States
  • Best Poster [GTA] 2014
    Best Topic [GTA] 2013

#13

Posted 28 March 2014 - 09:25 PM

In summation, I guess Peachrocks is right.
"Someone's always giving us grief, so we always have someone to give the finger to."

And there's a two minute "documentary" called "Styling the Past with Scott Hill." (You can find it on Google, I can't easily embed links on my phone...)
Unfortunately, it isn't an interview with him about GTA, but it's does give a great display of who he is. He drives a pick-up in the backwoods, restores old relics and works with his hands, plays guitar, is pretty burly with a beard and long hair, seems like he would be able to contribute the "1970's rebel patriot" talk...
I hope to God he didn't have sh*t to with his character in V...
  • Niobium likes this

Ledsbourne
  • Ledsbourne

    Peon

  • Members
  • Joined: 30 Sep 2011
  • None

#14

Posted 29 March 2014 - 01:50 AM

Even GTA Vice City had the mission called "Messing with the Man" for that Big Mitch Baker guy, which was basically causing as much chaos and damage as possible :p Also I think "the man" is mentioned in some random conversations with Terry, Clay and Jim. Well, clearly it means authoritative figure/government.

 

As for the quote, I don't think it should be taken out of context. I just watched that scene on Youtube. It's Leavis who mentions "the man" first, but I think Johnny's response meant that everyone has some nonconformity and anger inside them, implying that the poor Leavis should be really frustrated with his job serving the rich - or maybe trying to provoke him to do some crazy stuff while he works there. The whole conversation is really interesting in fact and I can't say I'm happy with my tries of explaining my point of view here, maybe that's due to late time, so I'll try to elaborate some more tomorrow and find better words to express it.

  • Niobium likes this

Peachrocks
  • Peachrocks

    Peon

  • Members
  • Joined: 20 Jun 2013
  • None

#15

Posted 29 March 2014 - 04:19 AM

Well Leavis is attempting to understand Johnny and Johnny is attempting to understand Leavis. It's a really good exchange between two very different characters and one of the most memorable in TLAD and there's a lot of competition there.

 

Johnny can't understand why anyone would want to basically play servant to rich people and Leavis can't understand (or feigns inability to understand) why Johnny chooses to live such a lawless life. I say feigns only because Stubbs says that Leavis has a package for Johnny after their first meeting which contains a rocket launcher which I always found rather odd.

 

I think that's what you are ultimately trying to say :).

 

Fact is we know nothing about Leavis or about the circumstances of his job. A lot of people hate their job but someone like Leavis would have to say that he doesn't because of it's part of the image that his job requires and who knows what requirements he has in day to day life.

 

Leavis doesn't quite understand Johnny's answer which of course he can't because he doesn't know what's going on in Johnny's life but I think it's at that moment Johnny has an incredibly sad realization. He knew it of course but only when he puts it in those words he realizes how much things are in the crapper and how many different things he's tried and found a problem with because of human nature for greed and power which even The Lost weren't exempt to which Johnny didn't want to face the reality of.

  • Ledsbourne likes this

Shiest Bubble
  • Shiest Bubble

    Snitch

  • The Lost MC
  • Joined: 23 May 2008
  • Suriname

#16

Posted 29 March 2014 - 02:19 PM

He's obviously referring to an oppressive authoritative figure that acts in self-interest when he says " the/a man" in this context. I always interpreted this as an attack on Billy, as around this time Johnny is realizing Billy never really gave a sh*t about his brothers and only acted in the interest of quenching his bloodthirst and greed. It contrasts Johnny's and Thomas Stubbs relationship, a person he once viewed as being a part of "the man" was a better friend and more genuine with him than someone that was supposed to be his brother for life. He realizes that it doesn't take a suit and a political podium to be "the man" and that "a man" exists on every level of society.

  • archiebunker, B Dawg, Ledsbourne and 2 others like this

Black & White
  • Black & White

    Homie

  • Members
  • Joined: 22 Nov 2013
  • United-States

#17

Posted 29 March 2014 - 02:28 PM

He realizes that it doesn't take a suit and a political podium to be "the man" and that "a man" exists on every level of society.

 

Yep.  :^:


OTF_Crow
  • OTF_Crow

    President of The Feared MC

  • Members
  • Joined: 24 Aug 2013
  • None

#18

Posted 30 March 2014 - 11:08 PM

It means there is always someone to answer to/take orders from

LancerG2
  • LancerG2

    The Lost MC [Vice President]

  • Members
  • Joined: 10 Dec 2013
  • Australia

#19

Posted 01 April 2014 - 05:57 AM Edited by LancerG2, 01 April 2014 - 05:57 AM.

"Excuse me sir, but could you- Dude it is the 21st Century!"
- Best Quote from the Mission.


Dr. Robotnik
  • Dr. Robotnik

    Punk-ass Bitch

  • Members
  • Joined: 12 Dec 2012

#20

Posted 01 April 2014 - 06:38 AM

"Excuse me sir, but could you- Dude it is the 21st Century!"
- Best Quote from the Mission.

Cracks me up every time, partially because I had no idea Scott Hill had that much range; the imitation is so spot-on it sounds like a different person.

 

To be completely honest, I feel this line doesn't make much sense in context, because it hardly has anything to do with answering the question Johnny was asked-namely, whether or not rebelling against "the man" has given Johnny any satisfaction.

 

Although, that might be the point; that Johnny is avoiding the question because he doesn't want to admit that this rebellion has never really given him any purpose or peace of mind, and thus that his life has been wasted.

 

Or, maybe what Johnny is trying to say is that the old man asking him the question is "the man" and part of the oppressive establishment, and he doesn't want to answer because he feels the question is loaded and designed to make him feel uncomfortable and complacent.

 

I really don't know. This part of the scene still comes off as a little odd to me.

  • Drunken Cowboy and Niobium like this

Peachrocks
  • Peachrocks

    Peon

  • Members
  • Joined: 20 Jun 2013
  • None

#21

Posted 01 April 2014 - 09:18 AM

The line about Johnny mocking Leavis' manner is on their first meeting. The line where Johnny says the topic title is in the second mission so he's had some time to reflect on Leavis. He reflects on that perhaps different people find happiness in different ways which is why he asked Leavis what he did precisely because Johnny's life is in the crapper. He didn't particularly care about making that clear to Leavis, he simply wanted to understand if doing what he did made him happy since Johnny had been unable to find happiness or satisfaction himself despite trying so hard and in so many ways.

 

As I've said elsewhere, Johnny's biggest weakness as a character is that he cares too much and takes the burden of the world on his shoulders. Ultimately he joined The Lost because of the fact he saw the world as corrupt, he says as much when the two undercover officers approach Jim and Johnny over the stolen bikes.

 

Johnny believed that The Lost would be free from such corruption and he could then protect the brothers and 'freedom' he treasured so much since joining the army was ruled out for him due to said corruption, if he couldn't protect his country then his brothers would have to do. Perhaps before Billy 'changed' and before what he did to Angus it was the ideal Johnny wished for. However corruption would soon destroy The Lost from within as well...

 

Johnny is also realitively tolerant for as long as people are not outright hostile to him or if they are intolerant themselves (e.g the AoD). Leavis is one of the few exceptions but that's because his lifestyle so strongly conflicts with Johnny's beliefs. He's ultimately serving the people who have made the world a corrupt 'sh*thole' in Johnny's eyes. However upon reflection he attempts to try understand Leavis' reasons which is why he asked the question he did, even as he's asking it, he's not quite sure how to phrase it in a way in which his meaning is clear.
 

  • HaythamKenway, Drunken Cowboy and Niobium like this

Niobium
  • Niobium

    fu*k your santa hats. they're too mainstream

  • Members
  • Joined: 13 Oct 2013
  • Canada
  • April Fools Winner 2015

#22

Posted 01 April 2014 - 10:20 PM

He's ultimately serving the people who have made the world a corrupt 'sh*thole' in Johnny's eyes.
 


So did John Marston. He believed the federal agents he was helping were also corrupt scumbags. Another similarity between John and Johnny.

Peachrocks
  • Peachrocks

    Peon

  • Members
  • Joined: 20 Jun 2013
  • None

#23

Posted 02 April 2014 - 03:51 AM

He's ultimately serving the people who have made the world a corrupt 'sh*thole' in Johnny's eyes.


So did John Marston. He believed the federal agents he was helping were also corrupt scumbags. Another similarity between John and Johnny.

I was referring to Leavis working at Jousters and why Johnny had such a hostile reaction to him. Still sure Johnny working for Stubbs and being blackmailed over those he cares for is a definite similarity but a key difference in this case is that there are so many villains in positions of power who have wrecked Johnny's life whereas John at least had a small chance to carve his own path because he wasn't completely surrounded by corruption as it had yet to form.

Orto_Dogge
  • Orto_Dogge

    GMF

  • Members
  • Joined: 04 Aug 2008
  • Russia

#24

Posted 15 April 2014 - 08:36 PM

It's the obvious reference to perpetual presence of some higher authority, despite chosen lifestyle and job.

Even Johnny, who has been living the life of a rebel and outlaw, giving the man a finger all the time, facing the problem of disagreement with orders he's given, when Billy got out of a rehab.

Billy is the man in different uniform.

You can't escape the presence of authority or law.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users