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Checkpoint Placement Guide

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GTAMYBABIES
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#31

Posted 30 March 2014 - 12:48 AM

Excellent work.
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Broughy1322
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#32

Posted 30 March 2014 - 12:56 AM

Yep, fair point.


Cuz05
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#33

Posted 30 March 2014 - 04:07 PM

What you will end up with is people missing the checkpoint and disliking your creation. I have seen it so many times. If you have any ability to use props...maybe the 10 dynamic ones? That would be the way to go. Otherwise...just let racers race.

Agreed.


Cuz05
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#34

Posted 02 April 2014 - 06:27 PM

Edited again with a note on spawns and another on CPing those tricky sweeping roads that I often find marked poorly.

 

Sooo, how about that pinnage? ;)

 

(don't want to have to edit it every couple of days for a bump...)


Cuz05
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#35

Posted 11 April 2014 - 12:27 PM

Well, I haven't thought of anything else to add to this so I reckon its done. I did ask about pinning it in a report but since it hasn't been, here's a bump.
Would strongly suggest that anyone serious about creating races for the masses and hoping for verification, checks their creations measure up to the standards detailed in the OP.

Aizcold
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#36

Posted 11 April 2014 - 12:45 PM Edited by ElvisGouranga, 11 April 2014 - 12:46 PM.

It might be worth mentioning the fact that the arrow on a checkpoint will always point in the direction of the next checkpoint in your guide. A lot of people seem to be unaware of this in my experience and think that that rotating the checkpoint also affects the direction in which it points while in fact it only determines how cars will respawn.

Because of the way checkpoints work, sometimes you will need to place two checkpoints quite close to each other to make sure that the first checkpoint indicates the corner properly and doesn't point the wrong way.

KimberJane
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#37

Posted 11 April 2014 - 12:53 PM

I have a couple of 68 checkpoint races as well...as long as you are building the course to the checkpoints and not the checkpoints to the course...you should be fine.
 
I linked this in my approved thread as well. Nice editing.

I have a 68 cp race too. It began life at around 50 but I've been tweaking it a lot. It's quite a diverse course but far from hard, and the added cp's have their purpose more of a guide than anything. I feel 68 is actually just enough.
What's really surprised me is how much fun can actually be had once you feel you have made a great race in regards you wanna get it perfect.

Cuz05
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#38

Posted 11 April 2014 - 06:44 PM

Fair point Elvis. I did kinda think it was clear from other points but I'll make it explicit.

Cuz05
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#39

Posted 12 April 2014 - 09:44 AM

It might be worth mentioning the fact that the arrow on a checkpoint will always point in the direction of the next checkpoint in your guide. A lot of people seem to be unaware of this in my experience and think that that rotating the checkpoint also affects the direction in which it points while in fact it only determines how cars will respawn.

Because of the way checkpoints work, sometimes you will need to place two checkpoints quite close to each other to make sure that the first checkpoint indicates the corner properly and doesn't point the wrong way.

1st point added. I think the 2nd is indirectly covered in other points, no?


Cuz05
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#40

Posted 16 May 2014 - 09:39 PM

Weeellll... Bump.

Yeah, still think this should be pinned.
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stronktank
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#41

Posted 09 June 2014 - 02:58 AM Edited by stronktank, 09 June 2014 - 02:59 AM.

Well Cuz, must say this is one of the most helpful topics for beginners and also think this should be pinned.

Just went through a massive list of nominations and the main problems with most races are: cp's,.. The nominated races are full of balloon poppers, or the opposite: you can't see the next cp,...

 

Anyway I've also quite had it with the 68 cp's limit races so I do think this is something that should be enlightened. So you and Luap seem to have one so can you post yours as I can't play Luaps,... Because I'm quite curious if I would like it,... And also thinking about making a new rule with only races under 65 cps, just to know people didn't alter other cps in function of reaching the maximum.


Cuz05
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#42

Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:37 PM

Cheers Stronk and here you go-

 

Leg It!

 

Couple of notes on this.

It's pretty old and I've not run it for a while so I'm not sure how I'd judge myself now. I did put quite a lot of work into at the time. Contrary to Luaps advice on this sort of thing, I had the start and finish and made the CPs fit. So they are stretched but I tweaked them an awful lot to provide adequate signposting.

You may find you remember parts as it's the closing act in my Rise/Fall lists. As such it was made to provide some vaguely open throttle relief after 9 tense and demanding lap races. Way back then you said it was pretty boring, I agreed with you tbh so it had a hefty re-route and benefited from that imo. It's still made with a decent number of racers in mind so it ain't gonna be one of those twisty dices with death that you like ;)

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who-dat
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#43

Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:47 PM

On certain turns, I place the CP as far away from the inside corner of a turn to keep people from cutting corners while still allowing a clean racing line.

LuapYllier
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#44

Posted 09 June 2014 - 06:59 PM

On certain turns, I place the CP as far away from the inside corner of a turn to keep people from cutting corners while still allowing a clean racing line.

Unless you put a prop in the inside of the corner it is very unnatural for any race driver to not shoot for the inside line on any corner. What you are doing is fighting the physics of racing in its purest sense.

Cuz. I am gonna see if I can put a good word in for pinning this.
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Cuz05
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#45

Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:09 PM

Cheers Luap.

 

I agree, placing the CP away from the apex to prevent corner cutting is not a good move, people will naturally look for the fastest line and miss it, giving your race what will only feel like a broken section.

The usual method is indeed placing a prop on the the inside. Many racing crews adopt this method when designing a race for pure racing lines. I vary which prop and how I place it depending on the feel I'm going for.


Haha, just like that, cheers guys.


LuapYllier
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#46

Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:39 PM

We should look at maybe upgrading this now with some images and such. Some things I could see working well is...
Pictures of...
Stacked vs appropriate for aproaching a corner.
Single checkpoint in a corner vs two or three.
Proper spot on the corner for apex or corona at edge of curb.
Checkpoints along a long sweeping curve with no clear apex.
Proper spot for a hairpin.
What visibility vs non visibility looks like.
Map view images that show obvious gaps in good checkpoints...road visible in curves.
Maybe even images of some of the more difficult but often used roads with checkpoints properly placed for reference.

Just some ideas. I will see if I can provide anything useful for you.
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Cuz05
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#47

Posted 10 June 2014 - 07:27 AM Edited by Cuz05, 10 June 2014 - 07:29 AM.

Well thanks for the suggestions but I don't think pictures are going to be helpful.
Main reason for this is that in most of the examples you've posted there, there isn't a specific spot that will always work. There are so many factors in placement at a corner that giving an exact spot, as a picture would, could prove to be misleading in a number of ways.
As the line at the top of the OP states, I believe placement is something of an art and I would rather encourage people to explore that, with the guidelines as a basis, than attempt to copy their placement from a picture of an entirely different corner.
For me, its not rocket science and merely going from the few basics I put up will see you right 95% of the time.
I also detest bloated OPs... This one is as compact as I could make it whilst also being exhaustive.
Although your line 'what visibility vs non visibility looks like' gave me a chuckle :D

Nitty Don
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#48

Posted 10 June 2014 - 11:23 AM

What does it look like ? !! ;)

 

Pinned at last, still reckon 95% of the community here will not read though .. shame cos as you said a few basic pointers is all you really need to know to get started, the rest will come with experience.

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stronktank
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#49

Posted 10 June 2014 - 02:56 PM

Really glad this got pinned! Thanks Luap and moderators, and great work Cuz!

 

Cheers Stronk and here you go-

 

Leg It!

 

Couple of notes on this.

It's pretty old and I've not run it for a while so I'm not sure how I'd judge myself now. I did put quite a lot of work into at the time. Contrary to Luaps advice on this sort of thing, I had the start and finish and made the CPs fit. So they are stretched but I tweaked them an awful lot to provide adequate signposting.

You may find you remember parts as it's the closing act in my Rise/Fall lists. As such it was made to provide some vaguely open throttle relief after 9 tense and demanding lap races. Way back then you said it was pretty boring, I agreed with you tbh so it had a hefty re-route and benefited from that imo. It's still made with a decent number of racers in mind so it ain't gonna be one of those twisty dices with death that you like ;)

 

Hehe yeah I remember it, so I'm curious for a replay!

And what you're saying works perfectly as a creator tip! "When making races that might reach the maximum cp limit, try placing the start and finish first so it's easier to stretch the cp's."? Or something like that.


Cuz05
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#50

Posted 10 June 2014 - 03:08 PM

Haha, I'm really not sure it does! I had to spend ages going back and forth, finding zones that may just work with one less, zones that really needed one more, testing, testing and testing. It was a pain in the arse!
Especially since its a 5min PtP and needed to be run all the way thru, internet drop outs and all...
Don't do it at all might be a better tip, lol.

Nitty Don
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#51

Posted 10 June 2014 - 04:15 PM

I don't understand the anti max CP issue ? A race needs as many as it needs surely ? if this is 2 or 68 ?

 

If your putting 68 CP's on one straight road then yes I see the issue ! I would guess a lot of peeps try to get the max in as they think this would give them the max pay out and RP ?


Cuz05
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#52

Posted 10 June 2014 - 06:21 PM

I don't understand the anti max CP issue ? A race needs as many as it needs surely ? if this is 2 or 68 ?

 

If your putting 68 CP's on one straight road then yes I see the issue ! I would guess a lot of peeps try to get the max in as they think this would give them the max pay out and RP ?

I just say be wary of using all 68. It will often mean you've got too many or too few as you may have crammed them in just to use them up or stretched them waaayy out because you chose a route that actually needs more.

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who-dat
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#53

Posted 10 June 2014 - 06:40 PM Edited by who-dat, 10 June 2014 - 06:46 PM.

On certain turns, I place the CP as far away from the inside corner of a turn to keep people from cutting corners while still allowing a clean racing line.

Unless you put a prop in the inside of the corner it is very unnatural for any race driver to not shoot for the inside line on any corner. What you are doing is fighting the physics of racing in its purest sense.
Cuz. I am gonna see if I can put a good word in for pinning this.

Racers can still take an inside line WHILE ON THE TRACK, INSTEAD OF BEING ON A SIDEWALK/GRASS
I don't see how racing and going off the road, onto and over the sidewalk and possibly into the grass to cut a turn THAT IS NOT INTENDED TO BE CUT is "fighting the physics of racing in its purest sense". My turn(s) all have an entry point, apex, exit point, all on a solid, standard racing line, but I CHOOSE TO MAKE THE RACERS TAKE A TURN WHILE STAYING ON THE TRACK.

I honestly feel like a lot of you 'racers' have only really gotten into the racing in this game, and don't have much if any experience racing in other games, let alone real world experience.

Cuz05
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#54

Posted 10 June 2014 - 06:59 PM

Well that's a nice reasonable response.... cough...

Just use a prop man. It is a valid suggestion, believe me.

who-dat
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#55

Posted 10 June 2014 - 07:21 PM Edited by who-dat, 10 June 2014 - 07:22 PM.

It is a valid suggestion, and I've used props on some of the turns I'm describing, but not all are suitable for a prop; ie people getting stuck on said prop.

I've got nothing but reasonable responses....cough...., about my suggestion to place some CPs away from the apex of a turn and more in the center of the intersection to promote people staying on the track. FYI, I have plenty of races with CPs tucked in tight on turns, but SOME TURNS on races I DESIGN, I PREFER THE RACE TO BE ON THE TRACK AS OPPOSED TO THE GRASS INSIDE OF A TURN.

Lots of people on these boards have this mentality of 'this is how I/we do it, and I/we enjoy it, so that's the way it's SUPPOSED to be done!'....

stronktank
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#56

Posted 10 June 2014 - 08:19 PM

I don't understand the anti max CP issue ? A race needs as many as it needs surely ? if this is 2 or 68 ?

 

If your putting 68 CP's on one straight road then yes I see the issue ! I would guess a lot of peeps try to get the max in as they think this would give them the max pay out and RP ?

 

You or Cuz or any experienced creator won't make a bad race with 2 or 68 cps. But this is a guideline, for beginners, and I must say I can at least suggest you 20 races with terrible 68 cp placement,... Most of the time when I start a race (that is the time I check the amount of cps) and I see it's "a 68" there is a huge "sigh". It almost seems like most of them just try the creator and want to make a long race without thinking about start or finish, so they end up in one random bad placed race,... And there are so many of them,... Yeah I do think this is an issue, go check out the nominations list in the approved customs races,...


Cuz05
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#57

Posted 10 June 2014 - 09:00 PM

I agree with every word you say there Stronk but I don't think I'll emphasize the point further. Simply because if you follow the basics properly, you won't have the sort of problems those tracks have. The creator will see himself stepping away from the basics and then maybe twig as to why they say what they do.

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Cuz05
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#58

Posted 10 June 2014 - 09:08 PM

It is a valid suggestion, and I've used props on some of the turns I'm describing, but not all are suitable for a prop; ie people getting stuck on said prop.

I've got nothing but reasonable responses....cough...., about my suggestion to place some CPs away from the apex of a turn and more in the center of the intersection to promote people staying on the track. FYI, I have plenty of races with CPs tucked in tight on turns, but SOME TURNS on races I DESIGN, I PREFER THE RACE TO BE ON THE TRACK AS OPPOSED TO THE GRASS INSIDE OF A TURN.

Lots of people on these boards have this mentality of 'this is how I/we do it, and I/we enjoy it, so that's the way it's SUPPOSED to be done!'....

 

 

There is no 'supposed to be done', there's functional and dysfunctional. If you have a corner where the fastest line available sees you miss the CP then you have dysfunctional.

If people are getting stuck on a prop then you have either placed the prop wrongly or used an unsuitable prop.

 

We can all read here and capital letters are not necessary, I can see the small letters just as well as the big ones.

You are complaining about mentality but you have been given very REASONABLE advice on the sorts of things that help and hinder race creation and replied with some rather intense attitude.

If there is a problem with the community on these forums then it is caused by people like you, who cannot take advice without taking offence. Neither of your replies have even hinted at being REASONABLE.

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stronktank
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#59

Posted 10 June 2014 - 09:42 PM

I agree with every word you say there Stronk but I don't think I'll emphasize the point further. Simply because if you follow the basics properly, you won't have the sort of problems those tracks have. The creator will see himself stepping away from the basics and then maybe twig as to why they say what they do.

 

True. Though it's a pity as those take the most time on both racing them and giving them proper feedback. Anyway I'll make it more clear in the 'rules' that a race should be 'finished', so that I can remove the 'unfinished' more easily.


Cuz05
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#60

Posted 10 June 2014 - 10:00 PM

Yeah Stronk. Kinda OT, lol, but that's why I decided not to review a race more than twice a little while ago. It's great to be able to help people polish their races but the thread just doesn't have the capacity to be a creator school. Which was actually the whole reasoning behind making this guide in the 1st place.

Quite simply, if you cannot get your race to sit within the kind of boundaries posted here, after being sent to it a couple of times, then you've a long way to go before considering yourself an approved creator and need to get running and testing more before applying.





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