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The IV versus V debate

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Gta Rory
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#1861

Posted 26 April 2014 - 10:33 PM Edited by Gta Rory, 26 April 2014 - 10:37 PM.

@jimbatron, I love this topic, good discussion.  However I respectfully disagree with you.  The characters aren't more realistic than in IV and even if they were, it doesn't matter because you can walk down the street with a machine gun and kill thousands of people without getting caught so who cares.

 

It's no so much about realism as much as it is about complex characters.  I don't understand the argument about how V is better because the three protagonists are just dirtbag criminals, and in IV Niko is always whining and wondering if he's making the right choices, so the V protagonists are better...

 

Michael sits in that therapist office and complains about the stupidest things I've ever heard, in one playthrough, you hear him cry about his highschool football days like five times....five too many for a gta game...

 

Niko complains about seeing dead children lined up against a church wall with their throats cut, and all of his best friends in the war getting betrayed and murdered by one of their own.  Niko is far more complex, and just better developed.  Many of the "drive here shoot this guy" missions that IV haters never stop complaining about, are there because you get tiny little bits of info about niko's past, and insight into who he is through passing dialogue...in V you get trevor's back story in one car ride with wade into Los Santos.  IV is a perfectly paced with a well crafted story/protagonist, whereas V seems like they couldn't decide what the story should've been, so they came out with the multiple protagonist idea as an excuse to slop a bunch of stuff into the game without developing things or explaining it well.

 

Also, you never mentioned the fact that Wade is able to find Michael in like a day because Norton never changed Townley or his family members' first names....so you're really going to put a story in which some meth tweaker can find one man in a huge urban area like Los Angeles in one day up against the incredible story we got from IV?  Dude.... I mean a lot of my favorite movies and games have their fare share of plot holes, but cmon this was the most lazily written story I've ever seen.  You change Michael's family members' last names but keep the same first names?  And this is how trevor finds them?  Booooo

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#1862

Posted 26 April 2014 - 10:37 PM

 

I don't agree that Niko is boring at all. He calls it like he sees it and walks the walk instead of just talking a bunch of garbage. Outside of Tommy Vercetti he is probably the most gangster out of all the protagonists. I just wish they let him at least get a taste of the good life in the game even if they decided to take it away at the end. He seemed like he had what it takes to be a boss.

 

Ah sh*t, something we can agree on.

 

I don't know how people can say Niko is boring. He's definitely one of my favorite protagonists in GTA.

 

Calling Niko boring simply says to me that the person saying it would rather Saints Row - a game of shallow, mindless fun. No story, no depth, no weight, just pointless fun. Load the game, blow up a truck, turn off console. That's fine, their play style is their prerogative. But Niko was one of the most developed characters R* have done - ahead of even Marston. He's only boring to those people who don't care about emotion of meaning, and i genuinely pity them, for they'll never experience that moment in TV and films where you feel the protagonist's pain and struggle and share their joy. If you can connect with a character, you wouldn't say Niko's boring. Some of the missions, perhaps, as you might get bored of "Drive here, kill him" (which as i said is in every single gta ever), but not the character.

I actually identify a lot with Michael. Recent events and struggles (and soon to be future struggles) have made me connect with him a lot. He's a lot like me in many ways, but at times, i even get broken in immersion with him. Certain hypocrisies for example.

 

Michael and Trevor both have a lot of depth even if they overdid the crazy on Trevor. I do wish they went more in depth with Franklin. I liked him but they didn't spend enough time with him. 

Franklin has about much depth as shallow frying. It's a travesty they didn't go into him more, but as i said before, this comes down to story length - Rockstar simply did not allow themselves enough space and time to do so. That's a fail.

Mchael and Trevor have some depth, even thought R* didn't deliver with the story, the dynamic behind them was good. There was an element of "for f*ck sake, guys, just bump heads and get it over with" or "kiss and make up", and i liked that. Despite disliking Trevor, I felt for him when he found out about Brad. In that instance, Michael had only a little sympathy; he must have known it was coming but even then, i felt for him too. That was where V's story was good - in that one moment where it comes to a head. That backstory was good, but the story never felt like there was anything else happening. It was just Trevor wanting to kill "Michael f*cking townley" and Michael saying how Trevor was crazy. I really felt for Franklin the most, because he seemed to be like "FFS guys, enough already. Jeez".

 

 

Trevor's an over the top cliche, 

 

I would disagree that Trevor is a cliche. Over the top, well, it would be hard to argue otherwise. However, cliche? I'm struggling to think of other fictional characters that I think Trevor comes from the same mould. Whether you like him or not, I think Trevor is one of the most original characters R* have come up with.

 

Perhaps Cliche might have been the wrong word. Rockstar implies that Trevor was created to reflect the common GTA gamer - the one that goes crazy, runs people over, has huge shootouts for no reason. As Niko, seeing him say how he regrets killing, then go and kill 50 peds was unbalanced. Trevor was supposed to fix that. I felt that Trevor was nothing but that... let's call him an architype. Not quite a steroetype as it is the case. He's the over the top, kill everyone, go crazy, because everyone does, player. He's the guy who, in online, gets a tank and spams you with rockets. He's the guy who griefs you because he can, they guy in the chrome Adder, the Buzzard in BOGT. That's why i call him a cliche, because he's little more than those assholes you meet online, just in protagonist form. I found his character neither new nor exciting. Thought, tbh none of the three felt that new. Michael, maybe, but even then that's a push.

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Gta Rory
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#1863

Posted 26 April 2014 - 11:14 PM

@Mokrie Dela

 

Trevor is a complete knockoff of the Joker in the Dark Knight...


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#1864

Posted 26 April 2014 - 11:57 PM

Or maybe you just can't distinguish Joker and Trevor. Completely different characters and they have different traits. If you're comparing him to the Joker, you must be retarded, seriously.


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#1865

Posted 26 April 2014 - 11:59 PM

The joker? I don't see it at all, to be honest.


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#1866

Posted 27 April 2014 - 03:42 AM

@Mokrie Dela
 
Trevor is a complete knockoff of the Joker in the Dark Knight...


Uh...that's a big no. Maybe the Joker in the old Batman tv show with the POW ZAP SHBANGS

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#1867

Posted 27 April 2014 - 04:05 AM

@Mokrie Dela

 

Trevor is a complete knockoff of the Joker in the Dark Knight...

Close but no cigar, he's based on Charles Bronson. 


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#1868

Posted 27 April 2014 - 05:11 AM Edited by AceKingston, 27 April 2014 - 05:20 AM.

I do wish Niko did experience a taste of the American Dream life though. Like he could have at least been allowed to purchase and own businesses and a few nice, luxury properties of his choice. 

 

This was my biggest gripe with IV. As much as I love the game, the economy system is broken. Probably the 2nd worst in the series after GTA III. Algonquin is based of Manhattan one of the biggest financial centers in the world, yet you can't use a stock market? So much to spend on so little. Wall Street was poorly done tbh.

 

Although to be fair no GTA has had a really great economy system. If I had to rank them (of the ones I've played) it'd be like this:

 

1) GTA: SA: The best in the series. Probably because you had a lot to spend on but yeah pretty neat all the same.

 

2) GTA:VC: Assests thing is pretty cool and was very neatly done. Finish an asset get the cash. You can only pick up the full cash after a period of time. Very rewarding.

 

3) GTA IV + EFLC: Already explained.

 

4) GTA III: Broken as hell. You get so much and you have barely anything to spend on at all. For instance for the first missions you get $1000 instead of small amounts like $250.

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leldoge
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#1869

Posted 27 April 2014 - 08:06 AM

 

I do wish Niko did experience a taste of the American Dream life though. Like he could have at least been allowed to purchase and own businesses and a few nice, luxury properties of his choice.

 
This was my biggest gripe with IV. As much as I love the game, the economy system is broken. Probably the 2nd worst in the series after GTA III. Algonquin is based of Manhattan one of the biggest financial centers in the world, yet you can't use a stock market? So much to spend on so little. Wall Street was poorly done tbh.
 
Although to be fair no GTA has had a really great economy system. If I had to rank them (of the ones I've played) it'd be like this:
 
1) GTA: SA: The best in the series. Probably because you had a lot to spend on but yeah pretty neat all the same.
 
2) GTA:VC: Assests thing is pretty cool and was very neatly done. Finish an asset get the cash. You can only pick up the full cash after a period of time. Very rewarding.
 
3) GTA IV + EFLC: Already explained.
 
4) GTA III: Broken as hell. You get so much and you have barely anything to spend on at all. For instance for the first missions you get $1000 instead of small amounts like $250.

 

GTA IV is like a test run for HD GTA and Rage Engine. It's normal that there are less thing you can do than GTA V.
But GTA IV won because of its storylines. I loved how GTAIV connect the three protagonists by the Diamond storyline and Heroin storyline from the intro of GTA IV to the Ending of TBOGT. The missions are really linked up to form a story.

 

Yet, IMO we cannot compare SA with IV or even V, SA was using a well dev 3D engine while IV is a "test run" using the HD Rage engine. The 3D and HD series are different universe. You can't compare SA with GTA 1 right ?


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#1870

Posted 27 April 2014 - 01:34 PM Edited by SonOfLiberty, 27 April 2014 - 01:35 PM.

I do wish Niko did experience a taste of the American Dream life though. Like he could have at least been allowed to purchase and own businesses and a few nice, luxury properties of his choice.

 
This was my biggest gripe with IV. As much as I love the game, the economy system is broken. Probably the 2nd worst in the series after GTA III. Algonquin is based of Manhattan one of the biggest financial centers in the world, yet you can't use a stock market? So much to spend on so little. Wall Street was poorly done tbh.
 
Although to be fair no GTA has had a really great economy system. If I had to rank them (of the ones I've played) it'd be like this:
 
1) GTA: SA: The best in the series. Probably because you had a lot to spend on but yeah pretty neat all the same.
 
2) GTA:VC: Assests thing is pretty cool and was very neatly done. Finish an asset get the cash. You can only pick up the full cash after a period of time. Very rewarding.
 
3) GTA IV + EFLC: Already explained.
 
4) GTA III: Broken as hell. You get so much and you have barely anything to spend on at all. For instance for the first missions you get $1000 instead of small amounts like $250.
I've always thought R* should've added some sort of debt deduction system as I couldn't picture Niko buying a lavish mansion, but I agree the economy system sucks.

Even some more clothing stores would've been better.

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#1871

Posted 27 April 2014 - 01:52 PM Edited by Andreas, 28 April 2014 - 05:04 PM. Removed quote-train.

I've always thought R* should've added some sort of debt deduction system as I couldn't picture Niko buying a lavish mansion, but I agree the economy system sucks.


Even some more clothing stores would've been better.

@ SonOfLiberty

 

Okay, forget the mansions, but Niko should have been able to buy a decent home in the suburbs, which would have been nice, or even an apartment somewhere in downtown Algonquin. And Ace Kingston is right, Rockstar should have made that stocks and shares feature for Niko in GTA IV, Liberty City was much more suited to it. New York is world-known for it's Stock Exchange, Los Angeles is not known for that, Rockstar really got it the other way around. A few businesses for Niko to own would have been very complimentary to the rest of the stuff I stated. I just think Niko should have had a small taste of the American good life for all the troubles he went through.

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#1872

Posted 27 April 2014 - 03:04 PM

I would've loved to obtain Bulgarin's house or a flat in Suffolk.

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#1873

Posted 27 April 2014 - 05:38 PM

There should have also been a garage and some rare cars you could buy in IV. V's car storage system isn't ideal but IV is just some parking spaces on the street. 


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#1874

Posted 27 April 2014 - 08:05 PM

One negative aspect of gta v to me is its rushed feeling, the game feels like its a beta version.

 

How? and don't mention the word 'story', like everyone else who I have seen say this.

Do us all a favor and please just stop talking about the story and gameplay elements. In all honesty, nobody cares...

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#1875

Posted 27 April 2014 - 08:34 PM




One negative aspect of gta v to me is its rushed feeling, the game feels like its a beta version.

 
How? and don't mention the word 'story', like everyone else who I have seen say this.
Do us all a favor and please just stop talking about the story and gameplay elements. In all honesty, nobody cares...

He wants to make rules about what we can debate. It's adorable in a annoying you don't decide what we talk about kinda way
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CantThinkOfOne2013
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#1876

Posted 27 April 2014 - 08:54 PM Edited by Andreas, 28 April 2014 - 05:04 PM. Removed quote-train.

He wants to make rules about what we can debate. It's adorable in a annoying you don't decide what we talk about kinda way

I simply asked heroe how he thought the game was rushed without mentioning story because I have seen a lot of people say that GTA V was rushed and the only thing they can say in their defence is 'story', I wasn't trying to make rules about what you debate.


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#1877

Posted 27 April 2014 - 09:11 PM Edited by Andreas, 28 April 2014 - 05:03 PM. Removed quote-train.

I simply asked heroe how he thought the game was rushed without mentioning story because I have seen a lot of people say that GTA V was rushed and the only thing they can say in their defence is 'story', I wasn't trying to make rules about what you debate.

Wouldn't it just be best to not assume he's going to do that? You should've just asked him why and then waited for his response. If he said, "the story felt rushed" and nothing else, then say, "What else do you think is rushed about V?" in a polite manner.

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#1878

Posted 27 April 2014 - 09:14 PM

In regards to wht he said about it feeling rushed and like a beta...look at all the issues and glitches. And no, I don't mean online

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#1879

Posted 27 April 2014 - 10:05 PM

To be fair, Single player does not have many issues or glitches compared to online, it's almost absent apart from a few which is inevitable. IV is still bugged and glitched till this day so I don't know what you are talking about.


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#1880

Posted 27 April 2014 - 10:08 PM

A lot, if not most, of the issues SP has right now was introduced from patches. It was not from release.

 

Also, every game has glitches. If glitches = rushed game to you, then I can only call you stupid.


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#1881

Posted 27 April 2014 - 10:47 PM

Oh noes Mr GTA V called me stoopid. Words hurt. People like you are the reason this thread got locked once already

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#1882

Posted 27 April 2014 - 11:05 PM

Way to not even touch the topic at hand. I didn't call you stupid. I said if you think all games with glitches in them = rushed, then you're stupid. You didn't fully clarify whether you meant that.

 

"Oh no, Mr. terrible reading comprehension didn't understand what I was saying!"

 

Give me a break.


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#1883

Posted 27 April 2014 - 11:19 PM

To be fair, Single player does not have many issues or glitches compared to online, it's almost absent apart from a few which is inevitable. IV is still bugged and glitched till this day so I don't know what you are talking about.


That's fine, keep thinking that way. Both IV and V has glitches but I found the ones in V to be more aggravating. I mean IV's were at least a little bit humorous.

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#1884

Posted 27 April 2014 - 11:22 PM

I think I've figured out why V's story is so lacking.

It's the heists.

You've got six heists. Now it might not apply to every one but:

 

you select your crew. En route, the conversation might change with each member. Packie talks about LS, for example. And the dialogue throughout the missions are different for each crewman.

Then there's the variations in the heists themselves. Hire one driver and he might not be on time on picking you up or not know the route on how to escape. Hire a better one and it'll go better. Hire a lame gunman and he freaks out. A good one shoots better.
So each heist is scripted in several different ways, and it varies depending on who you chose.

Then all of that work and space is doubled with the heist's second method.

I suspect that's where Rockstar's efforts have gone. The story lacks because Heists took more work than we thought.

Or not, i dunno, just thought i'd voice that.

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#1885

Posted 27 April 2014 - 11:27 PM

Way to not even touch the topic at hand. I didn't call you stupid. I said if you think all games with glitches in them = rushed, then you're stupid. You didn't fully clarify whether you meant that.
 
"Oh no, Mr. terrible reading comprehension didn't understand what I was saying!"
 
Give me a break.


Give me a break with you thinking that GTA had little to no issues at launch because it did and it's only gotten worse. But people like you refuse to believe or accept that so I may as well have told this to a mosquito

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#1886

Posted 27 April 2014 - 11:29 PM

I'm just saying because I'm not experiencing anything game breaking at all at the moment. And yeah, I still remember the swing glitch in IV which was funny as hell :D


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#1887

Posted 27 April 2014 - 11:51 PM

I'm just saying because I'm not experiencing anything game breaking at all at the moment. And yeah, I still remember the swing glitch in IV which was funny as hell :D


That's fine. Some people are lucky. Some aren't. At least you admit there are issues even though you haven't experienced them

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#1888

Posted 27 April 2014 - 11:59 PM

Please point me to where I said GTA V had little to no issues at launch

 

I'd love to see where I said that :)


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#1889

Posted 28 April 2014 - 02:44 AM

I absolutely love V but there are some things about it that annoy the sh*t out of me.

Character movement is a world better than IV's but it still needs some work:

- If they'd speed up the transition animations a bit, I would not so often die unnecessarily when being attacked from all sides. (I'm. Just. Trying to. Turn around. Ugh!!!)

- If they increased the trigger area for ladders, I wouldn't fall off of buildings trying to climb down.

- If they decreased the turning radius, I could shimmy my way on ledges better and without falling off when trying to line up a jump.

- If there are two objects I can hide behind, both within close proximity, I'm going for the one I am facing, not necessarily the one that's a hair closer to me. Fix this. It's still a better cover system than IV.

I can't remember if IV respected the menu option of radio off, but V doesn't. Grrrr.

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#1890

Posted 28 April 2014 - 04:26 PM Edited by Andreas, 28 April 2014 - 05:03 PM. Removed quote-train.

I simply asked heroe how he thought the game was rushed without mentioning story because I have seen a lot of people say that GTA V was rushed and the only thing they can say in their defence is 'story', I wasn't trying to make rules about what you debate.

Not exactly. I haven't played V yet but I myself am disappointed with some of the absent features such as crouching and night clubs. Crouching is like a basic feature so when people say  "rushed" they don't necessarily mean rushed they mean it's just carelessness. If they do, I think carelessness is more appropriate.





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