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Here I critique user created races, starting with Luap

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IckyDoodyPoopoo
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#1

Posted 04 March 2014 - 05:00 AM Edited by IckyDoodyPoopoo, 04 March 2014 - 08:54 AM.

So, after roughly 2000 races and countless hours spent in the creator I've formed some opinions on how a race should be framed. Here I would like to express those opinions through critiques of created races. I'll start with some of LuapYllier's races since I've been meaning to try his library of races.
 
*Note: I'll post links if I can figure out how. I keep getting stuck in this site's link dialog box. I paste the link and hit OK but nothing happens. Surely I'm just being dense, maybe someone can let me know what I'm doing wrong.
*Nevermind, it was just IE 11 derpitude.
 
LuapYllier:
 
Battle of Sedan  - Fun fun, well paced, turny, easy to follow. C/P 10 hides behind a tree, in my opinion it should be closer to the corner, maybe with the edge resting on the curb. Grade: A
 
More to come shortly..

IckyDoodyPoopoo
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#2

Posted 04 March 2014 - 05:23 AM Edited by IckyDoodyPoopoo, 04 March 2014 - 09:11 AM.

LuapYllier:
Centrifugal Observations - Fantastic. I'm probably a bit partial to this track because one of my own races uses the same loop, but Luap's version is pretty perfect. C/Ps are spot on, the props are great, they really give the course a great feel while accentuating the trouble spots. Grade: A+
 
While I'm at the observatory, I wanna talk about Observe and Race...
 
Rockstar Verified:
Observe and Race - The C/Ps on this track are well placed. The course is fun to race and fun to hotlap, the only problem I have with the track is the choice of route. By choosing the counter-clockwise route, the creator has introduced the race population to a Turn of Death, i.e., a turn where everyone wrecks on their first time through. That turn, in this race, is the final turn; a tight, blind, upward-sloping turn that chews everyone up. Exacerbating the danger, the creator adds dynamic barrels and staggered cabins to the outside of the turn, so when the racer inevitable overshoots the turn, the barrels will spin him out and/or he'll catch the edge of one of the cabins. It's almost as though the creator wanted mayhem here?
Grade: C+

My version, much like Luap's but with a twist - All Snaked Out

IckyDoodyPoopoo
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#3

Posted 04 March 2014 - 05:48 AM Edited by IckyDoodyPoopoo, 05 March 2014 - 04:32 AM.

LuapYllier:
 
Classic Curvilinearity - Fun route, I love this area because it is relatively smooth. Checkpoints 12 and 13 are 'stacked', by this I mean that 13 is at a corner and 12 is too close so the driver gets no time to prepare, just "omg turn". You can move 12 back quite a bit without making the route unclear. C/ps 19 and 20 are also stacked, here you could completely remove 19 without compromising clarity. On the topic of C/P placement, Rockstar has a race (I think Old Downtown or Downtown Underground) that starts at the same place and has the same first turn as this race. After the first turn, Rockstar places  a  quick C/P on the right side of the next straight, so If you take the turn outside, inside, outside (which is generally the ideal to strive for on all turns) then you will miss the C/P! Thankfully, Luap's track makes no such mistake. Grade: B (Easily an A if not for those two C/P snafus)

Edit to update: Luap's fixes of the stacked C/Ps bump this track rating to A+. This track is fun and easy to navigate even at Turismo speeds.

IckyDoodyPoopoo
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#4

Posted 04 March 2014 - 06:15 AM Edited by IckyDoodyPoopoo, 04 March 2014 - 09:07 AM.

LuapYllier:
 
Compact Disco - Wow, fantastic. I ran this route in a compact- pure fun. Making this route easy to navigate must be no easy task, yet Luap nailed it here, I don't think it's possible to place those C/Ps more perfectly. The effort by the creator is plainly clear here as this track is better built than 99% of Rstar/Rstar verified tracks. Grade: A+

IckyDoodyPoopoo
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#5

Posted 04 March 2014 - 06:40 AM Edited by IckyDoodyPoopoo, 05 March 2014 - 04:37 AM.

LuapYllier:
 
Coupe D'etat - Another fun, tight, creative route. The C/P placement is clear but many of the  turn C/Ps, I feel, are placed too early in the turns. This makes it difficult for the driver to get a feel for the apex point. At first I thought that the creator did this purposefully to allow corner cutting, however after passing C/P 16 several times( it wonkily points you into a slab of concrete, 10 yards before the apex of the turn) I've come to opine that the C/P placement here is not the creator's best effort. Good route, easy to follow, tough to keep on the fastest racing line since the C/Ps often point you off of it. Grade B-

Edit to update: Minor placement adjustments on several of this track's C/Ps have turned this track from "Where exactly is this turn" into a fun and challenging drive. Grade: A

IckyDoodyPoopoo
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#6

Posted 04 March 2014 - 06:55 AM Edited by IckyDoodyPoopoo, 04 March 2014 - 09:09 AM.

LuapYllier:
 
Daemon Dance - Another fantastically intricate track. Again, making a route like this easy to navigate is a tough ask but Luap comes through with ease and aplomb. On this track, Luap tends to put the turn C/Ps behind the apex which makes it much easier to focus on the apex through the meat of the turn. Grade: A+

IckyDoodyPoopoo
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#7

Posted 04 March 2014 - 07:23 AM Edited by IckyDoodyPoopoo, 05 March 2014 - 05:20 AM.

LuapYllier:
 
Danger Zone - I feel like this is one of Luap's earliest efforts, created before he really got a feel for C/P placement because there are a bunch of stacked checkpoints, a bunch of "omg, I need to be over there?" moments, and a couple of points where I was plain lost (on the second lap no less). This route is another ambitious undertaking with long straights to set up jumps, and some tight switch backs yet this effort falls short. It's a concept course, I cant imagine it would make for good races, lol at hotlapping it and I can't imagine running it more than a few times just for fun. Grade: D +  (C/Ps 30 and 31 should be in the dictionary for "Checkpoint Stacking")

Edit to Update: Luap's revisions of this track allow the driver to appreciate the creative use of the natural terrain without requiring mental gymnastics to navigate the course. I do feel that C/P 7 leading to the first jump (not the one on the jump) can be deleted, this would give the driver more time to prepare for the jump. Likewise Deleting C/P 11 leading into the dinosaur would give the driver time to size up the complex situation ahead. Also I would consider combining C/Ps 31 and 32 (the airport switch back) into one switch back C/P since it's easy to overshoot C/P 32. Finally, losing C/p 53 might make the final switchback easier to navigate, after 8 laps on this track I still feel well out of sorts at that spot. Maybe add tire stacks to accentuate the entrance. Grade: B

IckyDoodyPoopoo
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#8

Posted 04 March 2014 - 09:24 AM Edited by IckyDoodyPoopoo, 04 March 2014 - 10:33 AM.

DrAtomic1

LSC Great Eight - I hotlapped this about 20 laps on a bike to get the world record tattoo and I just now ran it in a sports car. I cant judge this track on the checkpoints since Rockstar hacked it up when they verified it (such a shame), for what it's worth the track is still very easy to follow. I do believe that C/Ps should point down the direction that you are headed on curved roads and I think that DrAtomic1 probably achieved that in his version, such a pity that some intern at Rockstar probably ran 4 laps then spent 20 minutes in the editor to chop up a race that took the original creator hours to get just right.

With that said, what really strikes me about this race is the poor use of props in the second switchback. The barriers are stifling, they don't allow you to take a natural line, they decrease the number of available lines (which affects races by limiting your ability to pass on the turn) and finally, they don't follow the curve of a good turn. They're like a rounded V, a driver wants to make parabola's, not Vs. The creator cuts off a lot of space on the outside of the turn, to what end? If the goal is make the turn tighter then the props should either follow a smooth curve around the apex or follow the line of the natural terrain, in this case, the edge of the freeway.

I get the impression that this area is a natural Corner of Death and the creator is keeping the racers from wrecking on the wall. If that's the case then the racing population would be better served by a smoothly sloping parabola that hugs the outside freeway wall for a bit and slopes out to a point 4 car widths away from the apex. The other option is to run tall props (maybe containers) along/inline with natural freeway barrier on the outside of the turn.

Grade: B


Here is a track that employs both natural sloping barriers that direct you along the driving line and straight line barriers that just say "don't go this way". Notice that the straight lined containers don't impede the driving line at all.
http://socialclub.ro...QQ?platformId=1

If you don't have time to run that then just check out the lobby photos on these tracks to see what the props on the outside edge of a switch back should look like:
http://socialclub.ro...EA?platformId=1
http://socialclub.ro...HA?platformId=1

LuapYllier
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#9

Posted 04 March 2014 - 11:26 AM

I am not exactly sure why you created an account, started a thread focused with my name in it, and drilled down on me personally. You would have been more than welcome to post your comments in my thread.

 

However, thanks for the feedback. 

I will look into the areas mentioned.

 

(just want to assure everyone that this is not me on an alt or anyone that I know that I am aware of. Really weird)


GTARACER93
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#10

Posted 04 March 2014 - 12:40 PM

What is the point to this? 


LuapYllier
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#11

Posted 04 March 2014 - 01:07 PM Edited by LuapYllier, 04 March 2014 - 01:13 PM.

Danger zone by the way was my very first track and was not meant for racing...more of a holy sh*t track.
@GTARACER
I'm really not sure what to make of it. I saw it early this morning and actually avoided reading it until I was fully awake because I fully expected it to be a huge flamball made by someone disgruntled.

I don't know.

IckyDoodyPoopoo
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#12

Posted 04 March 2014 - 02:38 PM

Goodness, I didn't mean to drill or single you out Luap, sorry man. Perhaps I set the wrong tone with the thread title. My intent here was to play through some of forum approved tracks and Rockstar verified tracks and give technical reviews for each one I played. Maybe I'll just do some of the verified ones and be done with it.

 

As for the account, I've been wanting to register and submit some tracks to the approved races thread for some time... I've just been waiting for the track votes to start registering to see how many likes I have on each track so I could see If it's worth it to go back and clean up my old tracks before submission. Maybe I shouldn't submit any now since Luap is on the voting board, lol.


LuapYllier
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#13

Posted 04 March 2014 - 03:26 PM

I initially thought it was going to be someone mad at my judging and was going to rip apart my own work as some sort of justice. You didnt do that so no problem...just seems wierd that you called me out specifically. Your welcome to nominate tracks in the approved threadand everyone is always welcome to post feedback on any track there as well. I treat everyone equally.

deffjeff87
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#14

Posted 04 March 2014 - 10:01 PM

I initially thought it was going to be someone mad at my judging and was going to rip apart my own work as some sort of justice. You didnt do that so no problem...just seems wierd that you called me out specifically. Your welcome to nominate tracks in the approved threadand everyone is always welcome to post feedback on any track there as well. I treat everyone equally.

I was thinking Icky was getting ready to roast you Laup lol but Icky are you just picking random ppl or are you got a certain way of doing this? Im not hating just would like to know whats happening cause i would like you to check out some of my maps too

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LuapYllier
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#15

Posted 05 March 2014 - 01:50 AM

For what it's worth I updated the above tracks. Not sure if you planed on rerunning them or not. Looks like your going alphabetically? lol


Curlypyebs
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#16

Posted 05 March 2014 - 02:01 AM

Icky and Luap sitting in a tree.....

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IckyDoodyPoopoo
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#17

Posted 05 March 2014 - 03:43 AM Edited by IckyDoodyPoopoo, 05 March 2014 - 05:21 AM.

Jeff, I'd definitely like to do your tracks, let me know which ones.

For what it's worth I updated the above tracks. Not sure if you planed on rerunning them or not. Looks like your going alphabetically? lol


I've updated my reviews of Classic Curvilinearity, Coup D'etat and Danger Zone.

deffjeff87
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#18

Posted 05 March 2014 - 06:13 AM

GO SPEED RACER GO

http://rsg.ms/1fS270h

 

Combo #2

http://rsg.ms/OZ4uGn

 

Dare Devil

http://rsg.ms/1fS1i7L

 

GSRG and Dare Devil are old maps that havent been worked on in a month or 2 but go ahead and give them your honest opinion on what needs to be fixed. As i go through the testing phase ill send you the maps to check out. Then send them to the Approved Thread.


IckyDoodyPoopoo
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#19

Posted 05 March 2014 - 09:08 AM

deffjeff87:

Go Speed Racer Go - So this is a "Find your own way/Choose your own way... sometimes" type of novelty track I presume? If so, then I don't see by what metrics I can judge this. The reviews I've been giving here have been mostly based on how easy a course is to navigate. Your track is purposefully ambiguous, and it's not clear where you are trying to be ambiguous, where you are trying to be clear and where you just have ran out of checkpoints. I don't think I'm capable of giving this a productive review.

IckyDoodyPoopoo
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#20

Posted 05 March 2014 - 09:51 AM Edited by IckyDoodyPoopoo, 05 March 2014 - 10:19 AM.

deffjeff87:

Dare Devil - This is a fun track! I can't imagine how fun it would be with a full lobby, pure mayhem! With that said, there are a few spots where it's impossible to navigate from C/Ps alone. I'm just gonna list the changes I think you should make.

-After C/P 13, place another C/P just outside the gas station on the street. Very Important.
-After 37, Place 2 C/Ps along the path leading to 38. It's confusing here. Very Important.
-The final jump, this is where your track goes from fun mayhem to sorta ridiculous. Move the jump so the racer lands with enough time to do something about the turn into the next lap. I would remove the slanted bus leading in and pull the ramps back, maybe all the way to the intersection. Very Important
-After 42 decide if you want the racer to switch back through the grass or if you want him to use the street. If you chose street then place a couple C/Ps along that rounded curve to force the driver out there. Minimally Important.
-I think you should put C/P 2 on top of the middle container so that it's clearly visible from C/P 1. I don't think that will change the frequency of missing the C/P on the jump. Just a suggestion.

As is, this track is odd in that 95% of it is very easy to navigate with perfectly placed checkpoints then there are spots where the driver is left with no clue where to go. Clearly, a lot of time, effort and care must have been put into this track, it's 100 times better than Jumps Jumps Jumps, and with a few tweaks it will earn top honors. Grade: C+

LuapYllier
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#21

Posted 05 March 2014 - 11:30 AM Edited by LuapYllier, 05 March 2014 - 11:33 AM.

For what it's worth I updated the above tracks. Not sure if you planed on rerunning them or not. Looks like your going alphabetically? lol


I've updated my reviews of Classic Curvilinearity, Coup D'etat and Danger Zone.

 

 

Thanks for the updates. Unfortunately that is as far as my changes are going to go on Danger Zone. The original design had very simple switchbacks on all three legs where it was basically just one checkpoint on the road and a 180 degree turn. This did not go well with everyone smashing into each other. So I added the props to show where to turn around but without the entry checkpoints no one uses them. Additionally the checkpoints are as close to the jumps as possible to keep people from skipping the jumps which actually became the norm among friends before I added the barriers.

 

Thanks for the feedback.

 

I'm still not really sure why you felt the need to start another thread to do reviews when we already are doing one. Would you like to be a judge in the Approved thread? We are about to lose another judge to retirement. 


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#22

Posted 05 March 2014 - 11:49 AM Edited by DrAtomic, 05 March 2014 - 11:50 AM.

DrAtomic1

LSC Great Eight - I hotlapped this about 20 laps on a bike to get the world record tattoo and I just now ran it in a sports car. I cant judge this track on the checkpoints since Rockstar hacked it up when they verified it (such a shame), for what it's worth the track is still very easy to follow. I do believe that C/Ps should point down the direction that you are headed on curved roads and I think that DrAtomic1 probably achieved that in his version, such a pity that some intern at Rockstar probably ran 4 laps then spent 20 minutes in the editor to chop up a race that took the original creator hours to get just right.

With that said, what really strikes me about this race is the poor use of props in the second switchback. The barriers are stifling, they don't allow you to take a natural line, they decrease the number of available lines (which affects races by limiting your ability to pass on the turn) and finally, they don't follow the curve of a good turn. They're like a rounded V, a driver wants to make parabola's, not Vs. The creator cuts off a lot of space on the outside of the turn, to what end? If the goal is make the turn tighter then the props should either follow a smooth curve around the apex or follow the line of the natural terrain, in this case, the edge of the freeway.

I get the impression that this area is a natural Corner of Death and the creator is keeping the racers from wrecking on the wall. If that's the case then the racing population would be better served by a smoothly sloping parabola that hugs the outside freeway wall for a bit and slopes out to a point 4 car widths away from the apex. The other option is to run tall props (maybe containers) along/inline with natural freeway barrier on the outside of the turn.

Grade: B


Here is a track that employs both natural sloping barriers that direct you along the driving line and straight line barriers that just say "don't go this way". Notice that the straight lined containers don't impede the driving line at all.
http://socialclub.ro...QQ?platformId=1

If you don't have time to run that then just check out the lobby photos on these tracks to see what the props on the outside edge of a switch back should look like:
http://socialclub.ro...EA?platformId=1
http://socialclub.ro...HA?platformId=1

 

The root cause sits with the guard rail placement, the barriers are placed back while still creating the curving causing the curve to be somewhat of a V-shape. I prolly should have pushed back the second part of the barrier wall a bit. It always bothered me a little bit as well but I choose to keep it like that because else people go full speed and crash over the end road barrier in the turn. Never been a big fan of the blue walls or containers for blocking off roads, i tried it without barriers too but that didnt work out too well either with people going on the wrong side of the road. It would have been a lot easier if the guard rail gap were a bit bigger like it is on the other side. On the plus side it is now a challenging corner to take well. 

 

Ps. why not join us as a judge in this thread: http://gtaforums.com...d-custom-races/ ?


IckyDoodyPoopoo
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#23

Posted 05 March 2014 - 12:19 PM Edited by IckyDoodyPoopoo, 05 March 2014 - 12:24 PM.

deffjeff87:

Combo #2 - This is a solid route through Vinewood hills and it's easy to follow but there are just way too many checkpoints. I get that your goal is for every checkpoint arrow to point along the driving line. This a good goal (and a tough one) to aspire to but this checkpoint clutter distracts the driver from the road and from natural obstacles. In my opinion, you can mostly, if not totally, reach your goal with half the checkpoints. Through the Grapevine and Nurburing are good examples of what I'm talking about, almost all of the checkpoint arrows point you in the right direction yet the courses have low checkpoint density. In fairness, those hills in Vinewood are tighter and more loopy than the hills in the Grapevine area but you don't need to place a C/P every 200 yards to achieve your goal here.

I have confidence that you can figure out how to clean this up. Maybe run through Going Down a couple of times to get some ideas. It's not too tough, it's just a lot of placing-replacing... trial and error.

Here is my suggestion for the first third of the track:
Remove C/P 4, 6 (I know you want 5 to be very angled but...), 8, 10, 13, 15, pull 16 back so it is in view of the previous straight, remove 17, 18, pull 19 back a bit, remove 20, 22 pull 23 back to the previous intersection, remove 25 and 27

Also C/P 38 is stacked on the upcoming corner C/P, this gives the driver no time to prepare for that tight switchback.

As it stands, this track is a reasonable drive and easy to navigate but the checkpoint spam detracts from its overall drive-ability. It's gonna take a couple hours of work, but I think you can turn this track into something better than anything Rstar is associated with. Grade: B-

GTAMYBABIES
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#24

Posted 05 March 2014 - 12:40 PM Edited by GTAMYBABIES, 05 March 2014 - 12:42 PM.

What is the point to this? 

To review tracks and promote them. We have no shame in this subsection.
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LuapYllier
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#25

Posted 05 March 2014 - 01:08 PM

@Dr. I imagine since obviously he was well aware of our thread based on the title and the content here he must not like something about orur format or the rules or standards and decided to do it his own way. Thats cool I guess. More the merrier I suppose.

GTARACER93
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#26

Posted 05 March 2014 - 02:19 PM

 

What is the point to this? 

To review tracks and promote them. We have no shame in this subsection.

 

The O.p intentions were not clear at first and this could have been just an attempt to mock  Lupa. 

I know what the thread was about. 


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#27

Posted 07 March 2014 - 06:01 PM

deffjeff87:

Combo #2 - This is a solid route through Vinewood hills and it's easy to follow but there are just way too many checkpoints. I get that your goal is for every checkpoint arrow to point along the driving line. This a good goal (and a tough one) to aspire to but this checkpoint clutter distracts the driver from the road and from natural obstacles. In my opinion, you can mostly, if not totally, reach your goal with half the checkpoints. Through the Grapevine and Nurburing are good examples of what I'm talking about, almost all of the checkpoint arrows point you in the right direction yet the courses have low checkpoint density. In fairness, those hills in Vinewood are tighter and more loopy than the hills in the Grapevine area but you don't need to place a C/P every 200 yards to achieve your goal here.

I have confidence that you can figure out how to clean this up. Maybe run through Going Down a couple of times to get some ideas. It's not too tough, it's just a lot of placing-replacing... trial and error.

Here is my suggestion for the first third of the track:
Remove C/P 4, 6 (I know you want 5 to be very angled but...), 8, 10, 13, 15, pull 16 back so it is in view of the previous straight, remove 17, 18, pull 19 back a bit, remove 20, 22 pull 23 back to the previous intersection, remove 25 and 27

Also C/P 38 is stacked on the upcoming corner C/P, this gives the driver no time to prepare for that tight switchback.

As it stands, this track is a reasonable drive and easy to navigate but the checkpoint spam detracts from its overall drive-ability. It's gonna take a couple hours of work, but I think you can turn this track into something better than anything Rstar is associated with. Grade: B-

Thanks for the quick timly reviews and ya GO SPEED RACER is one of those choose your own routes and Dare Devil is pretty intense when its a full lobby. As for Combo #2 i wanted to remove some CP's but id rather get feedback before i start removing them. Will do these to the best of my ability and ill hit you up again.  Do you have any maps that you want us to try out also?


Fachuro
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#28

Posted 08 March 2014 - 10:34 AM

The Economist

http://rsg.ms/PbNkFD

1_0.jpg

 

Need for Grapeseed

http://rsg.ms/PbNDjB

1_0.jpg

 

Midtown Madness

http://rsg.ms/PbNKM1

1_0.jpg

 

Having seen you actually be serious about this, which I doubted at first reading the thread title, I'm gonna give your reviews a go with some of my tracks :p  These have also just been submitted to Luap's thread for review.


IckyDoodyPoopoo
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#29

Posted 08 March 2014 - 10:54 AM Edited by IckyDoodyPoopoo, 08 March 2014 - 10:57 AM.

Do you have any maps that you want us to try out also?


Just the ones that I submitted to the Approved Races thread. Particularly the last 2, they're relatively new so I haven't yet been able to follow someone through the course and see where they have trouble.

If you post any feedback, I guess it's better to do so in the Approved Racers thread. When I started this thread, I didn't realize all opinions are welcome in that thread (I had just skimmed the first page and the last flame filled pages). I thought is was judges only. Derp on me.

IckyDoodyPoopoo
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#30

Posted 08 March 2014 - 11:01 AM

Fachuro,

I'm gonna run through these and I'll post reviews in the Approved Races thread.




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