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Why I personally dislike TLMC in GTA V.

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Gun Runner
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#1

Posted 28 February 2014 - 02:38 PM

Before I get flak for this, I loved TLaD in GTA IV. It was personally my favorite DLC, and what it brought to GTA IV was great.

 

Now, this is because Rockstar stopped caring, and probably because the 'love' for TBoGT was much more vocal than the love for TLaD.

 

Writing Fails.

 

In GTA V, a patchmember in a random encounter will say "We wiped out the AoD, they're gone." (paraphrasing, of course.) which make NO sense. The AoD is a multi-national club, while the Lost could possibly be multi-national, but they never say or mention that they are. And the AoD probably outnumbers The Lost possibly 1-5, if not more. And for a club that had probably just started in that area about a year beforehand, coming cross-nation from the burnt out LC Chapter, they wouldn't have the manpower nor firepower in order to expell the AoD from Los Santos/Blaine County. And besides, they had no real turf to speak of due to the Lost's weakness in San Andreas.

 

The Lost in LC had the Broker chapter, which is never really spoken about in-game, but exists due to some Lost patches having a 'Broker' bottom rocker. Why didn't these guys help? Johnny as standing president could have just called in the Broker chapter to help deal with the AoD and mafias, but he didn't. Leading the Alderney chapter to crumble. This technically means the Lost never had to leave LC in the first place. but they just decided to up and leave for LS.

 

Even then in LS, the Lost didn't have much, but the club grew like wildfire. But they do have a clubhouse in LS. Which now brings us back to the 'not calling for backup' situation. The LS Chapter justs sits around looking pretty, while the Blaine Chapter gets blown up by Trevor the poorly written character.

 

I won't even touch base on Trevor and the Lost, that's a different post for another time.

 

Shift in character traits.

 

Johnny, the man who could survive a merciless firefight, getting launch off his bike at nearly 100 MPH, Getting run over by a semi-truck, lit on fire, shot by police, then surviving, killing the entire LCPD police force and riding off into the sunset. NOPE. He takes ONE bottle to the head, and maybe a solid six stomps to the head from rubber-sole hiking boots. Some could argue "oh but the meth weakened him", which is bullsh*t. Johnny, as per all meth users, would have had significant skin tone changes and looks to his character model from TLaD. (Although Rockstar doesn't give two sh*ts.)

 

Generally stupid things.

 

I doubt that most of the Blaine/LS chapter came from LC, but when Trevor comes back to put the final nail in the Lost's coffin, there's that one patchmember... "You were unworthy of president, Billy Gray was the best we ever had."  I doubt he was from LS, and unless the Lost tracks EVERY chapter president, there's no real reason this one patchmember should know about Billy. And if he does, why does he idolize him? Johnny did more for the Lost then Billy ever could have, be it good or bad.

 

WHY DOES EVERYONE HAVE NEAR EXACT REPLICAS OF THE HEXER, IT WAS BUILT FOR JOHNNY BY ANGUS, CLAY AND BILLY FOR HIM, NOBODY ELSE SHOULD HAVE IT.

 

And besides the incorrect player models of the Lost, where prospects have wings and back patches, and several Road Captains, Sgt-At-Arms and Secertaries can spawn at the same location, the Lost never using the war wagons, and the general lack of Daemons as an alternative to the Hexer, that about sums it up. Still a smaller wall of text then Grevious' posts. If you read all the way through, good job.

 

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Black & White
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#2

Posted 28 February 2014 - 05:44 PM

The thing that annoyed me was the fact that the Angels of Death had a chapter in Los Santos and were huge there. Now that everyone is in Los Santos, they aren't to be seen. It just doesn't make sense. Rockstar have completely contradicted themselves and have literally took out the AOD out of the history books. In Liberty City, the Lost killed AOD members in one mission. I remember the gang wars. I guess I would of been okay with the AOD being wiped out in Liberty City, only because there was actually some proof of that. But now the AOD have simply disappeared without any explaination.

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Peachrocks
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#3

Posted 01 March 2014 - 12:20 AM Edited by Peachrocks, 01 March 2014 - 12:31 AM.

The amount of inconsistencies regarding how The Lost were handled in GTA V are absolutely mind boggling and the decision for Rockstar making them out to be generic goons is also absolutely mind boggling.

 

You've only scratched the surface regarding the inconsistency, it was as if everything about the Lost was done by someone who had a pet hate for TLAD. Much of it reads like bad fanfiction. Plot devices made deliberately to set up a character they hate for a fall (meth), an original character who is above the rules that hold the normal protagonists in line and kills the 'hated' character...

 

As for Billy, well stories is my guess. Stories of Billy's better days and although some of it does have theoretical explanations, theories and what not much of it does not. It's very disappointing for Rockstar's high standards and frankly amateur.

 

Oh and as for 'the Love of TBoGT' vs. Tlad, TLaD is a far deeper experience in terms of characters, Ballad was glam and fancy weapons. Mind you I liked Ballad too... far more than I liked most of GTA V's storyline... thanks for that Trevor.

 

Before I played TLAD I didn't give much of a crap for the biker theme, I still don't, at least not to the degree some of you do but it was the story, development and characters I really enjoyed. Unfortunately most of this goes over the heads of many people and Johnny is seen as a 'whining, depressed cry baby' and why those same people absolutely adore Trevor who is completely devoid of depth or consistency.

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Grievous
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#4

Posted 12 May 2014 - 12:56 PM Edited by Grievous, 12 May 2014 - 01:01 PM.

The Lost was at least given a huge amount of presence in Grand Theft Auto V in spite of it being a minor gang comparing to those featured more heavily in the storyline such as the cartel, the triads, the hood, or even the government agencies for that matter.

The Lost was either featured or mentioned in story missions, several random encounters, optional side missions, property missions, in-game television, in-game news on the radio and internet, bleeter messages, lifeinvader posts, and the bikers can also be found roaming the sandbox world.

That's a lot of work done for a gang that appeared with no relevancy to the central plot, and considering the shortcomings in the treatment of the game's other more noteworthy gangs such as Grove Street, it's hard for me to say that Rockstar "didn't care" regarding the Lost MC.

 

Also the more I think about it, the less I see in any sort of 'hatred' Rockstar had against Johnny. Killing him off in such lacklusting manner isn't as much as a statement akin to "boo, we hate the bikers trope" as much as it was a heartwrenching and disgusted 'goodbye' to their character and creation.

 

Why was their a need for a 'goodbye'? well it's something of a necessity I suppose; to cope with public reaction and expectations, in this economy they had to make compromises to please the market. For very much the same reason Ballad of Gay Tony and to some extent Grand Theft Auto V are what they are today is a reaction to how Grand Theft Auto IV and Lost and Damned were received. It's no secret the latter two were not always the more popular choices amongst the majority of gamers. It would have been suicide for the company to continue building their franchise on thematic elements that fail to resonate with their consumers.

 

Trevor stopping Johnny unapologetically wasn't the writer's way of saying "you're trash, you deserve to die", but rather the writer showing their frustration over the fact that they can't 'continue' with characters and thematic resembling to that of Johnny and The Lost and Damned.

 

You've all seen this before, or perhaps to some extent done it yourselves; when something you cared for, something you worked for, or something that brought you joy in making, suddenly faced with negative reaction from others or unpredicted events that sends your work astray, there's at times a fit of rage that bursts out, sometimes even ruining the thing you made in the process.

 

Imagine you baked a cake for someone, you baked it from your own intent, and for whatever reason the person you baked the cake for either rejected it outright or simply didn't liked the fact that 'you' were the one who baked it in the first place and refuse to eat it.

So you get disappointed, you're angry about it, and you toss the cake against the wall.

 

Rockstar weren't probably too happy either when they saw their fanbase preferring the more 'light hearted' Grand Theft Autos.

 

Hence Trevor, Rockstar's 'gift' and interpretation of their fans who appreciate more 'light hearted' contents in a Grand Theft Auto.

It's irony all throughout.

 

PS: I give the Topic Creator a medal of bravery for having attempted at making a wall of text that rivals my now trademarked rambling style.

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Dr. Robotnik
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#5

Posted 13 May 2014 - 07:58 AM Edited by Dr. Robotnik, 13 May 2014 - 06:11 PM.

 

Imagine you baked a cake for someone, you baked it from your own intent, and for whatever reason the person you baked the cake for either rejected it outright or simply didn't liked the fact that 'you' were the one who baked it in the first place and refuse to eat it.

So you get disappointed, you're angry about it, and you toss the cake against the wall.

 

Rockstar weren't probably too happy either when they saw their fanbase preferring the more 'light hearted' Grand Theft Autos.

 

Hence Trevor, Rockstar's 'gift' and interpretation of their fans who appreciate more 'light hearted' contents in a Grand Theft Auto.

It's irony all throughout.

 

So basically, Rockstar threw a contrarian temper tantrum and alienated a good portion of the fans who did enjoy TLAD. Great job, guys.

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Grievous
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#6

Posted 13 May 2014 - 10:11 AM

Johnny and Trevor's interaction was still arguably one of my favorite dramatic moments in the game; it was way more engaging to watch than, say, Trevor and Michael at the cemetery. That one didn't impress me all that much.

 

For all we know the best is still yet to come, the biker tropes may return in a full fledged Grand Theft Auto.

San Fierro and Las Venturas are still there to be tamed!


Peachrocks
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#7

Posted 13 May 2014 - 10:59 AM Edited by Peachrocks, 13 May 2014 - 11:18 AM.

While it's true The Lost featured a fair amount it was only in the capacity of generic mooks. I'd rather have them not feature at all. I hate doing and in most cases refuse to do any anti Lost mission in online or single. I don't even view them as The Lost we knew.

You may be right, it could have been Rockstars way of saying goodbye but It still alienates people who paid for and enjoyed the DLC. To make matters worse, the very in depth and multi layered Johnny is killed by the shallow, contradictory, simple minded and hypocritical Trevor who was solely designed to appeal to the shallow player who cares not for plot but random destruction.

It basically throws anyone who cared for storyline depth under the bus and gives them the finger and whether this was their intention only time will tell but it's for all these reasons that people are pissed.

I will agree obviously that the Trevor/Johnny interaction had more meaning but this is mostly because of Johnny's character, not Trevor's. Trevor is merely a tool in that scene (in more ways than one). The Michael/Trevor scene is meaningless because Trevor is a man who despite preaching loyalty is loyal only to himself and cares little for the feelings or needs of others.

That entire scene was based on Trevor feeling betrayed but he really brought it upon himself with his selfish behaviour. So obviously the scene loses meaning and drama.

That said it is good to hear from you again Grievous.
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Grievous
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#8

Posted 15 May 2014 - 05:57 PM

While it's true The Lost featured a fair amount it was only in the capacity of generic mooks. I'd rather have them not feature at all. I hate doing and in most cases refuse to do any anti Lost mission in online or single. I don't even view them as The Lost we knew.


Ironically thus far I've always found anti-Lost missions to be some of the best in modern Grand Theft Autos.
Chasing after Jason and Jim were the best bike chases in IV.
The two missions dealing with Brian in Lost & Damned were better paced and the goons more satisfying to kill than, say, the ones dealing with the Angels of Death oddly enough.
And the on-rail chase in Ballad of Gay Tony were you toss dozens of sticky bombs on defenseless bikers was also one of the best missions in the dlc.

I personally find the shooting mechanics in V to be a bit less amusing to play so I generally disliked shootouts in this one, but shooting at Lost bikers still feels more relevant than random Hispanic drug dealers, government agents, mercenaries, or whatever it is the story tosses at you.
The missions that puts you dealing with Lost mooks just feels less artificial compare to all your other targets, it felt less like engaging hordes of endless gang bangers that ambushes you in waves and more like, I don't know, engaging an already established gang?
Maybe the fact that all three story missions that you had attacking the Lost pitched you attacking their headquarters instead of random street fights.

I mean i'll take any of Trevor's missions any day over another shootout against the Ballas. The one at the sawmill in the woods in particular was just ... weird.

Never played Online, although I suspect the missions in Online are just one unrelated shootout to another where just about any gang gets their share of body count.
 

You may be right, it could have been Rockstars way of saying goodbye but It still alienates people who paid for and enjoyed the DLC. To make matters worse, the very in depth and multi layered Johnny is killed by the shallow, contradictory, simple minded and hypocritical Trevor who was solely designed to appeal to the shallow player who cares not for plot but random destruction.


I also just noticed that Johnny's last line was "I messed up" ...

It's a far cry from Victor Vance's "I think we have a deal my friend ha ha ha ha" *boom headshot*.

If anything, it's interesting to note that there are quite a number of people who remarked just how unsympathetic and detestable the protagonists of V are. I absolutely do not recall people lambasting at Niko Bellic's hypocrisy years ago, instead sympathies for Niko was felt althoughout.
Rockstar may have deliberately wanted to make V's protagonist incredibly difficult characters to relate to, but I don't know, it does feel sketchy.

I don't think the shallow players who care nothing but random destruction actually even 'get' the full extent of Trevor's characterization. As in, I don't think these players will even pause for a moment to reconsider Trevor's actions and behaviors aside from 'finding it funny'.
But such players were always there, they've certainly played Lost and Damned too.

My point is that Trevor as a character is still an intimate creation by Rockstar. The character design is there to fulfill their own intentions, which in Trevor's case is their attempt to reconcile the story to gameplay segregation of a Grand Theft Auto game by making a playable character that feels natural to play within the context of a sandbox game. A character that behaves consistently with the same insane universe he inhabits in.

I was about to continue with a controversial statement here, but I better dump it in another neighboring topic instead.
 

It basically throws anyone who cared for storyline depth under the bus and gives them the finger and whether this was their intention only time will tell but it's for all these reasons that people are pissed.


I'm pretty sure we haven't heard the last from the Lost yet in upcoming DLC, consider these two elements:

- The meth business. Trevor took out the Lost in order to secure the monopoly on the meth market, specifically so that he alone can secure the trades with the Chinese Triads. Which the plan didn't work since the Triads had preferred operating their trades with the O'Neil brothers, and subsequently the reason why the Triads surfaced in the last quarter of the story to bring retaliation is because Trevor's attitude had lead to no one thriving in the meth business, and in one of the game's endings at least, also killed off one of the Triad leaders.
So let's sum this up: the O'Neils are all dead, both the Triad's and Lost's presence in Blaine County are crippled under Trevor's actions, and Trevor himself still hasn't found a buyer to properly fund his Enterprise.
This meth subplot is basically left without an end, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a continuation to this ...

- Secondly there is much talk about the DLC focusing with the opening of the casino located at East Vinewood. It just so happens that is located right next to the East Vinewood bar that is full of Lost bikers; it's not made clear whether this is the Lost's Los Santos clubhouse or just a bar they hang out often, but unlike Hookies, another bar often visited by the Lost, this one seems more likely to be one of their base of operations.
The opening of the prestigious casino right next to this unsavory local biker business is bound to have some repercussions. If the protagonist are on friendly term with the casino managers they may be tasked in persuading the Lost to leave, maybe by stealing a firetruck and hosing the bikers one by one, I don't know. Reversely if the protagonists are not on friendly terms with the casino, they may deviously lure the Lost bikers into storming the casino floors. Creating a bit of mayhem, and possibly even steal some horses from the hippodrome just behind the casino.

Bikers on real horses, that'll seal the modern cowboy image.
 

I will agree obviously that the Trevor/Johnny interaction had more meaning but this is mostly because of Johnny's character, not Trevor's. Trevor is merely a tool in that scene (in more ways than one). The Michael/Trevor scene is meaningless because Trevor is a man who despite preaching loyalty is loyal only to himself and cares little for the feelings or needs of others.

That entire scene was based on Trevor feeling betrayed but he really brought it upon himself with his selfish behaviour. So obviously the scene loses meaning and drama.


I still like the fact that Trevor was simply too upset about the fact that Michael was still alive, and basically had Johnny confronted Trevor sooner rather than now, it would have played out quite differently.
Assuming Johnny doesn't yell out Trevor's berserk button, "Hey I'm talking to you, motherf***er!"

The cemetery scene just kind of feels loose.
I would have rather the fact that Michael wanted Trevor dead in the first place to be put forward, meaning I find the fact that 'Michael wanted Trevor to be the one in the grave' to be the more interesting source of drama rather than the not-so-hard-to-figure-out bit about learning 'who is the grave' which they focused on too much and for not real payoff either.

In any case it's a pity they had to fit Franklin into all this, and Franklin didn't solved any of the issues other than shouting at the other two to be cool and stop moaning, and Michael and Trevor both obey like scared children caught with their hand in the cookie jar for the first time, it's really odd, especially Trevor would always commands people to shut up or talk whenever he needs either of it. Anywya.
 

That said it is good to hear from you again Grievous.


Honestly I didn't expected to be back so soon, then again I didn't expect to leave so suddenly back in December either! Sudden time constraints and all, didn't even get to finish my third playthrough of V!
I was hoping that by the time I have the time to come back on the forum the dlc would have came out, or at least been announced by now, in order to push the conversation somewhere further than it has been for, what, nine months now?

When I do have the time, I do get to send off my imperial wall of text armada.
But when I don't have the time, the fleet stays docked, rusted, and hides in the Bermuda triangle, where not even Trevor Philips can breach through. Ever.

Peachrocks
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#9

Posted 15 May 2014 - 11:27 PM

The GTA IV Lost missions were different because they made more sense from the point of view of the character and made it seem justified. This is what it's about to me and why I can like these missions despite identifying with The Lost because I can relate to the point of view of the other guy.

 

This is NOT true with Trevor, or any of the online missions for that matter, some of it is 'gun down and shoot' but one mission has you acquire a Lost van for Trevor solely for the purpose of getting together with Ashley to agitate Johnny. You can play these missions on your own if you want. I know I do.

 

In Jim's chase, the Lost have taken two million from Ray. Or that's what Niko believes. Ray was planning to rip The Lost off most likely because he sent men to Libertonian to ambush Johnny. The point is, Niko and the player believe someone has ripped Ray off. 

 

In Jason's case, Niko is merely acting on someone else's orders. One could argue he's doing this for the sake of protecting Roman and Jason is hardly innocent. It's one of the least 'justified' kills Niko makes in the entire game though and personally I didn't like this mission too much like many of the Faustin chain. 

 

Brian's missions were more than a little justified. Though of course I find them iffy too because if Johnny had called Brian's actions into question in front of the whole Lost MC and the fact he abandoned Billy, the war probably wouldn't have occurred but there's not much 'typical' gta style in that.

 

Luis' mission again is justified. Self defense and The Lost just stole stuff from them.

 

Most of Trevor's actions are 'just because' and 'lol random violence' and are impossible to identify with. I don't agree on Franklin and Michael being difficult to identify with either. Franklin has really questionable moments for sure and Michael has brain farts in a terrible attempt to make Trevor look like a victim but on the most part I still identify and understand both characters and their motivations pretty well.

 

As for Lost vs. Ballas shoot outs, it really makes no difference to me. For me it's all about why. Why are the characters involved in a conflict. I find when the reasons are as trivial and unplanned as Trevor's a lot of the potential immersion and enjoyment just dies. I don't think the Ballas were developed anywhere near well enough to understand them where as the development on The Lost was done in TLAD.

 

I'm quite sure we haven't heard the last of The Lost and I honestly wonder whether that is a good thing. I sense more pointless slaughter in The Lost's future which of course is not what the people who are disillusioned want to see. Trevor's storyline never being finished is just one more thing in the story that doesn't make sense or was wrapped up properly. Hell the entire story itself wasn't finished properly no matter which ending is chosen. Whether there's something to it, I don't know but I don't expect Angus coming back and being a supporting character for the protagonist/s which would probably be the only way we would get a remotely satisfactory explanation to the crap that was taken on TLAD fans.

 

Michael should have wanted Trevor dead and should have killed him numerous times throughout the plot and only can when it makes no sense to do so @_@. The whole cemetery scene and what follows just smells of 'we need this to happen in this particular way to make the story on', it felt extremely forced.

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Dr. Robotnik
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#10

Posted 16 May 2014 - 06:58 AM

 I absolutely do not recall people lambasting at Niko Bellic's hypocrisy years ago, instead sympathies for Niko was felt althoughout.

In Niko's "defense", while he's nowhere near the moral, honest person he makes himself out to be (and the writers did a surprisingly subtle job of illustrating this, far apart from the scene with Darko), he has a good amount of introspective moments ("I was very young. And very angry. Maybe that is no excuse…"). They may not be enough to make him sympathetic, but they're there.

 

The same can't really be said for Trevor. He candidly admits to being a "bad person" at times, but he's rarely shown to be as affected by killing as someone like Niko, and when he does angst, it's usually about what someone's done to him. His claim to Michael that "no one gives a f*ck about me" is, aside from being unsympathetic, just plain untrue; Ron and Wade very much do care about him, and aren't serving him purely out of fear. And yet he abuses them in every way possible for no real reason, even though loyalty is supposed to be the closest thing he has to a redeeming quality.


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#11

Posted 16 May 2014 - 07:51 AM Edited by Dr. Robotnik, 16 May 2014 - 07:53 AM.

My point is that Trevor as a character is still an intimate creation by Rockstar. The character design is there to fulfill their own intentions, which in Trevor's case is their attempt to reconcile the story to gameplay segregation of a Grand Theft Auto game by making a playable character that feels natural to play within the context of a sandbox game. A character that behaves consistently with the same insane universe he inhabits in.


I was about to continue with a controversial statement here, but I better dump it in another neighboring topic instead.
 

The problem with that being that the universe as it's portrayed in GTA V isn't quite crazy enough to justify Trevor, and the story takes itself too seriously, with the same result. Trevor's also a solution to a problem I never really thought existed to begin with, though I know others don't feel the same way.

 

I felt Saints Row 2 integrated gameplay and story much better; the universe in that game is unrealistic enough to justify carnage, but realistic enough to have pathos (whereas Saints Row III goes so far into "carnage" territory, the pathos mostly disappears). By the same token, the protagonist in SR2 is what I'd consider to be "Trevor done right"; ruthless in general, loyal to his allies, and utterly merciless to his enemies. "Mostly amoral with some moral characteristics" rather than "deliberately immoral with inconsistent moral characteristics".

 

And beyond that, the rampages that Trevor's meant to justify aren't terribly feasible in the game itself, at least not without cheats; the cops are so aggressive, and money to cover the necessary expenses so scarce, that the player will probably lose much motivation to fulfill Trevor's purpose early on. Something I also feel SR2 did better, since the police AI is much more forgiving, and thus rampages, if the player so desires them, are actually fun.

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Grievous
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#12

Posted 16 May 2014 - 04:51 PM

I'm quite sure we haven't heard the last of The Lost and I honestly wonder whether that is a good thing. I sense more pointless slaughter in The Lost's future which of course is not what the people who are disillusioned want to see. Trevor's storyline never being finished is just one more thing in the story that doesn't make sense or was wrapped up properly. Hell the entire story itself wasn't finished properly no matter which ending is chosen. Whether there's something to it, I don't know but I don't expect Angus coming back and being a supporting character for the protagonist/s which would probably be the only way we would get a remotely satisfactory explanation to the crap that was taken on TLAD fans.


Yes I must say now that I reread my post I realized whether it is in continuation of the meth ordeal or the casino opening, it's pretty much a guarantee at this point that the Lost are going to act as additional cannon fodders ... But that said, Rockstar can always create a strong Lost biker character that acts as Trevor's personal antagonist to fight against.
We'll see.

Michael should have wanted Trevor dead and should have killed him numerous times throughout the plot and only can when it makes no sense to do so @_@. The whole cemetery scene and what follows just smells of 'we need this to happen in this particular way to make the story on', it felt extremely forced.


I forgot to add that the reason why I mentioned the cemetery scene in the first place is because I've seen many people commenting it as one of the emotional/dramatic highlight scene of the game ... if anything, even Trevor's conversation with Michael in his house just before the cemetery encounter, was much better.

And speaking of which ...

The same can't really be said for Trevor. He candidly admits to being a "bad person" at times, but he's rarely shown to be as affected by killing as someone like Niko, and when he does angst, it's usually about what someone's done to him. His claim to Michael that "no one gives a f*ck about me" is, aside from being unsympathetic, just plain untrue; Ron and Wade very much do care about him, and aren't serving him purely out of fear. And yet he abuses them in every way possible for no real reason, even though loyalty is supposed to be the closest thing he has to a redeeming quality.


I looked at Trevor's anger in relation to Michael from this perspective: Michael is the one who brought Trevor into the criminal life in the first place, as Trevor explains it to Lamar. After Trevor's life as an air force pilot fell moot, he was very much confused as to what he ought to do with his life, until that fateful evening where Michael bumps into him and asks him to help getting rid of a corpse.
Then years later Michael 'went soft' and started having ideas of building a clean and safe family. And how does Michael went about to secure this position? he makes a deal with FIB agent Dave Norton, and although never explicit, it is suggested that Michael wanted Norton to kill Trevor outright in North Yankton. Out of dumb luck, Brad gets into the line of fire and gets the bullet instead.

Trevor is shown to have 'hypothesized' many explanations as to what might have actually happened in North Yankton, but for the most part he was bemoaning the loss of Michael.
So when Michael turns out to be alive and well, it was becoming a bit more obvious day by day that, well, "nobody really gave a f***" about Trevor to begin with. Michael made Trevor into his criminal accomplice when he needed it, and decided to get rid of him when he thought retiring. And Trevor just had to be this guy with severe abandonment issues as a result of childhood trauma.

Trevor isn't very young either, it's been years that all of these events has been sulking deep into his life, I'm not surprised by the time we get to play as him he has distanced so much from any shrew of morality around him.
In fact, the mere fact that he is aware of the monster he is, well, it's kind of commendable ... at least I think in part that's what it was intended as part of his character's design process.

As for Ron and Wade ... well, I don't think they're quite 'willingly loyal' to Trevor. Personally I think they're just scared of being left alone too. They suffer from abandonment issues as much as Trevor, and Trevor just took advantage of it.

Wade is shown to be simply naïve to begin with, and Ron just ...

Man, I don't know, something still tells me that Ron was the one who trashed Trevor's trailer and then blamed it on the Lost. I don't know why, I can just feel it, it doesn't make sense for the Lost to not even burn the whole trailer down, instead the mess that took place looked more like a house disturbance, a dispute between a man and his wife.
And when you just look back at the way Ron talks and idolizes Trevor ...
Well, anywya.


The problem with that being that the universe as it's portrayed in GTA V isn't quite crazy enough to justify Trevor, and the story takes itself too seriously, with the same result. Trevor's also a solution to a problem I never really thought existed to begin with, though I know others don't feel the same way.
 
I felt Saints Row 2 integrated gameplay and story much better; the universe in that game is unrealistic enough to justify carnage, but realistic enough to have pathos (whereas Saints Row III goes so far into "carnage" territory, the pathos mostly disappears). By the same token, the protagonist in SR2 is what I'd consider to be "Trevor done right"; ruthless in general, loyal to his allies, and utterly merciless to his enemies. "Mostly amoral with some moral characteristics" rather than "deliberately immoral with inconsistent moral characteristics".
 
And beyond that, the rampages that Trevor's meant to justify aren't terribly feasible in the game itself, at least not without cheats; the cops are so aggressive, and money to cover the necessary expenses so scarce, that the player will probably lose much motivation to fulfill Trevor's purpose early on. Something I also feel SR2 did better, since the police AI is much more forgiving, and thus rampages, if the player so desires them, are actually fun.


As I recall Trevor does justify himself in one of the bounty missions as being "Diversification personified, or personified diversification". It rang true to me in part because most of the side missions V has to offer are exclusive to Trevor, namely bounty, deer hunting, arms trafficking, and score based rampages. This is in contrast with Franklin and Michael, where apart from friend-hangout activities and Strangers & Freaks subplots, don't have specific side missions tied to themselves.

Trevor's story missions, and specifically the way he behaves in story missions also reminds me a lot of older Grand Theft Auto protagonists, the kind that expects business deals to always be successful, or always has a keen ability to deliver disproportionate retribution whenever something just displeases him.
What makes Trevor a bit more different than past protagonist is indeed as you've noted, the fact that it looks 'misplaced' in relation to the actual universe created in V. The stakes and morals seems to have shifted, the goofy fun just don't mesh itself so well with the rigid construct of this modern universe.

It further feeds into Trevor's characterization of the 'loony' one, because he is so used to behave under a certain system and structure but finds himself unable to get what he wants in this new system.
To put it another way, you don't play V the same way you play San Andreas, yet Trevor expects the laws and rules of V to obey the same way San Andreas did.
The moments he rages upon the fact that things don't work the same anymore were some nostalgic humorous moments to me.
I guess it's also why it makes me slightly more biased as to not immediately despise and hate on Trevor.

Saints Row 2 didn't made much of an impression on me compared to its sequels. However I do recall that fans of the series finding the protagonist's behavior in 2 very violent and somewhat creepy, to the point where in The Third and IV the story has often lampshaded on this notorious fact.
Odd isn't it? sometimes you wonder if we shouldn't switch the fans of Saints Row with that of Grand Theft Auto ...

Peachrocks
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#13

Posted 17 May 2014 - 03:53 PM Edited by Peachrocks, 17 May 2014 - 03:54 PM.

Odd about people saying that about the sr2 being creepy, I personally don't think so. Well whatever.

As for Ron trashing the trailer I must ask two things. Why would he and secondly why would he say later that he didn't see the Lost members who trashed the trailer at the airfield if he himself did it. Trevor isn't a smart man, if Ron really did it he could paint literally anybody as the fall guy.

Grievous
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#14

Posted 17 May 2014 - 04:59 PM Edited by Grievous, 17 May 2014 - 05:00 PM.

I'm just trying to imagine this conversation.

Lost Biker 2: Yo man, Johnny Klebitz is dead!
Lost Biker 1: Did you searched the local hospital?
Lost Biker 2: Yeah man, Johnny's dead, for real, the local cannibal did it, even kept a piece of John-john's brain!
Lost Biker 1: For real? man we ought to give him a medal, Johnny was a wimp, we're better without him.
Lost Biker 3: Oy! our base at Stab City is a graveyard! what do we do? what do we do?!!
Lost Biker 1: Good thing we left the weekend warriors in charge of Stab City, not a big loss as far as I'm concerned.
Lost Biker 4: OH MAH GAWD! They shot Terry and Clay ?!!
Lost Biker 1: That's impossible!
Lost Biker 4: I just saw their body left rotting in the desert highway by the woods! they're being devoured by coyotes, vultures, and local carnivorous elk!
Lost Biker 5: And bigfoot too.
Lost Biker 4: Yeah and bigfoot too was chewing of them bodies, or at least we think that was bigfoot, anyway it's crazy man, what are we going to do, what are we going to do?!!
Lost Biker 3: We can call in our squadron from Sandy Shore Airfield and drag Trevor through the desert, Achilles style!
Lost Biker 2: We still have large crates of explosives, also at Sandy Shore Airfield, let's blow his house to kingdom come!
Lost Biker 1: NO! Silence! I have a better plan ... we sneak into his trailer van ...
Lost Biker 2: Yeah? and then?
Lost Biker 1: We steal his pisswasser beer ...
Lost Biker 3: And then? and then?!!
Lost Biker 1: We throw his tables and stuff upside down all over the place ...
Lost Biker 4: Oh mah gawd this is so exciting, what's the kicker? we set it on fire?
Lost Biker 1: Better ... we ...
Lost Biker 5: Oh man the suspense is killing me!
Lost Biker 1: We piss on his bed, on his sink, and on the kitchen floor!
Lost Biker 2 3 4 5 in unison: That's ... GENIUS!
Lost Biker 1: For Terry and Clay!
Lost Biker 2 3 4 5 in unison: For Terry and Clay!
Lost Biker 1: But remember, we sure as hell ain't doing it for Johnny. *spits on the floor*
Lost Biker 2 3 4 5 in unison: *spits on the floor*
Lost Biker 5: Hey someone spat on my boots!

...

Yep, Ron trashing the trailer makes a heap more sense to me.

Spoiler
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Peachrocks
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#15

Posted 17 May 2014 - 06:55 PM

Well this question might be answered in future.

 

Who knows, maybe it was some immature prospect who did it? Maybe someone was looking for something of Trevor's and trashed the trailer and pinned the blame for it on The Lost.

 

I just don't get the significance of Ron's line, just how much of a look did he get at the guy/s who did it. It's just an extremely odd thing to say, even more so if Ron actually did make a mess. Why put something in there like that if they aren't going to come back to it...

 

Oh wait, the ending for the game doesn't make sense either. Never mind, nothing to see here @_@.


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#16

Posted 17 May 2014 - 09:29 PM

What if...

 

Spoiler


Peachrocks
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#17

Posted 18 May 2014 - 07:09 AM

What if...
 

Spoiler


Some say Jim did it for some reason if he was still alive. Maybe they are haunting it together.

Ghosts of the damned? Where they have to send Billy and Brian to hell... Permanently

Grievous
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#18

Posted 19 May 2014 - 06:29 PM

I think the purpose as to Ron's comment on the Sandy Shores airstrip bikers not being the same bikers who trashed Trevor's trailer is ... because the plot wanted to show that Trevor didn't really give a damn about who trashed his trailer in the first place and just needed an excuse to take over the Sandy Shores airstrip because as the only playable character who had the absolute highest piloting skills he needed a free hangar to store the various airplanes and helicopters the player can purchase over the in-game internet even though it is a gameplay feature the game itself never bothered to properly explain?

As to the conspiracy of Ron being the one who trashed Trevor's trailer ... well, Ron behaves like a Stockholm Syndrome victim. He is un-shamelessly loyal to Trevor in spite of all of his abuse, and he can't spend more than two minutes alone in Blaine County without Trevor around. Barely completing the mission where Trevor sets foot in Los Santos Ron sends a message to Trevor imploring his return, to which the player, as Trevor, can reply "stop being a pussy and get back to work/clean my sh*t up". You can also call Ron, to which a backstory is revealed that not only was Trevor the one who chased Ron's wife away in the first place, but Ron also completely approves of Trevor's action. This unconditional support over a person's actions and reasoning is a step beyond being an ass-kisser and more like ... well, whatever it is the writer thought worth making.
Ron was also incredibly jealous of Mrs Madrazo, who was 'stealing' his position of being Trevor's housemaid.

Further more, even if it was some ... misguided, or immature Lost prospect who trashed Trevor's trailer ... where did these Lost prospect came from?
I mean, the Lost over at Stab City were completely tweaked out junkies, it's unlikely they're capable of travelling all this way to Sandy Shores in the first place. The mission where Trevor returns to Stab City to throw sticky bombs also shows that the 'new' Lost reinforcement who arrived to take care of the funeral were disgusted over Stab City's bikers being incapable of avenging the fallen ones and kill Trevor. A couple of those new reinforcements even repeatedly kicked one of the Stab City bikers to death.
But it doesn't make sense either that some prospect of these supposedly 'more hard core' version of the Lost would just contend himself with stealing pisswasser beer, flipping over a table, and breaking a cartoon toy figurine.

"Ain't we a bit old for stealing clubhouse flags and stuff?"

Peachrocks
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#19

Posted 19 May 2014 - 07:28 PM Edited by Peachrocks, 19 May 2014 - 07:29 PM.

I think the purpose as to Ron's comment on the Sandy Shores airstrip bikers not being the same bikers who trashed Trevor's trailer is ... because the plot wanted to show that Trevor didn't really give a damn about who trashed his trailer in the first place and just needed an excuse to take over the Sandy Shores airstrip because as the only playable character who had the absolute highest piloting skills he needed a free hangar to store the various airplanes and helicopters the player can purchase over the in-game internet even though it is a gameplay feature the game itself never bothered to properly explain?

 

 

So in other words you have nothing conclusive and believe Ron's incredibly off words were merely meant to highlight Trevor's nature that was highlighting over a hundred times in the plot. Could be I guess... Not mocking you either. Based on how many times Rockstar do go over this particularly er um... quality... of Trevor's it wouldn't surprise me.

 

Much like other things, there's not enough proof either way. I get the sense though that this scene and line could be relevant.

 

 

As to the conspiracy of Ron being the one who trashed Trevor's trailer ... well, Ron behaves like a Stockholm Syndrome victim. He is un-shamelessly loyal to Trevor in spite of all of his abuse, and he can't spend more than two minutes alone in Blaine County without Trevor around. Barely completing the mission where Trevor sets foot in Los Santos Ron sends a message to Trevor imploring his return, to which the player, as Trevor, can reply "stop being a pussy and get back to work/clean my sh*t up". You can also call Ron, to which a backstory is revealed that not only was Trevor the one who chased Ron's wife away in the first place, but Ron also completely approves of Trevor's action. This unconditional support over a person's actions and reasoning is a step beyond being an ass-kisser and more like ... well, whatever it is the writer thought worth making.
Ron was also incredibly jealous of Mrs Madrazo, who was 'stealing' his position of being Trevor's housemaid.

 

Ron is incredibly... annoying character. Annoying isn't quite right but I do not like him much. Mostly because he's the biggest form of the plot device of 'oh someone has to be Trevor's friend for no good reason', because the reality is nobody would put up with that crap, even out of fear because Trevor is honestly too stupid and has incredibly obvious weaknesses.

 

Wade I can borderline accept because he at least appears to be not too bright though how he tracked down Michael despite this I find more than a bit odd. Maybe he's a sleeper agent of some sort (not bloody likely but a man can dream about a more satisfying demise to Trevor than ending A yes?)

 

Patrica Madrazo also falls under this heading but it's within reason to believe that she was only protecting her husband from Trevor and to a lesser degree herself. However that whole plotline is full of contradictions and nonsense.

 

 

Further more, even if it was some ... misguided, or immature Lost prospect who trashed Trevor's trailer ... where did these Lost prospect came from?
I mean, the Lost over at Stab City were completely tweaked out junkies, it's unlikely they're capable of travelling all this way to Sandy Shores in the first place. The mission where Trevor returns to Stab City to throw sticky bombs also shows that the 'new' Lost reinforcement who arrived to take care of the funeral were disgusted over Stab City's bikers being incapable of avenging the fallen ones and kill Trevor. A couple of those new reinforcements even repeatedly kicked one of the Stab City bikers to death.

 

We can't know that for sure about every single Lost member in Stab city. I remember that kicking scene but I'm not sure where the whole reinforcement stuff stands. What makes you think they came from elsewhere? Not saying there isn't anything on that but I can't stand playing those missions and do not dive very deep into them because I'm too busy trying to kill Trevor and fail the mission in various ways enough times so I can skip slaughtering The Lost.

 

 

But it doesn't make sense either that some prospect of these supposedly 'more hard core' version of the Lost would just contend himself with stealing pisswasser beer, flipping over a table, and breaking a cartoon toy figurine.

"Ain't we a bit old for stealing clubhouse flags and stuff?"

 

Maybe they aren't ;)

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Dr. Robotnik
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#20

Posted 20 May 2014 - 05:58 AM

Patrica Madrazo also falls under this heading but it's within reason to believe that she was only protecting her husband from Trevor and to a lesser degree herself. However that whole plotline is full of contradictions and nonsense.

She might also just have Stockholm syndrome, like Michael says. Living with an abusive husband can't have been good for her self-esteem.


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#21

Posted 20 May 2014 - 10:20 AM

So Trevor's plan was to abuse the abusive husband to get on his hands an abused wife and take it as his own wife so that he may be the one who abuses her instead.

 

Wait, suddenly I'm making a weird connection between this, and the Johnny Ashley Billy triangle.

 

I'm scared.


LeopardGecko
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#22

Posted 01 June 2014 - 09:56 PM Edited by LeopardGecko, 01 June 2014 - 10:08 PM.

These are some unusual things about the Lost MC in GTA 5 that I noticed:

-In GTA TLAD,the full name of the club was The Lost Brotherhood MC,but in GTA 5 I never heard anyone use their full name,everyone(including their members)just calls them The Lost,Lost MC or The Lost MC.

-Every Daemon has the Lost MC logo on the seats,even those used by civilian NPCs.If Rockstar could make a different version of the same bike for civilians and biker gangs in GTA 4(Zombie and Hellfury),why didn´t they make different,unmarked Daemon for civilians?They should have also made the Lost MC Hexers that have their logos,while civilians would ride the unmarked ones?Also,why don´t the Lost bikers ride Daemons alongside Hexers outside of missions(because it looks weird that a group of bikers all ride the same bike)and why don´t civilians ride Hexers?I know those are small details,but it would be better if they did it like they did in GTA 4 and TLAD.

-Is the Bagger a Lost MC bike?It is shown next to Lost MC members in Underbelly of paradise http://img4.wikia.no...LostMC-GTAV.png and it can even be found in their hideout in singleplayer https://www.youtube....h?v=HxQ0aibm8rY ,but other than that,it´s never used by them.(I personally think that Rockstar should have also made a Bagger with the Lost MC logo that is used by them,they have little variety of the bikes they use in GTA 5)

-Why do prospects already have patches on their back?Why do some members have a different patch with a giant eagle carrying a woman http://img4.wikia.no...lPatch-GTAV.jpg ?Also,why are there multiple members with the same rank next to each other?If they can program that two people with same facial features don´t spawn next to each other,why didn´t they do that with rank patches?And why don´t all members have a full patch with the bottom rocker like this http://prod.cloud.ro...q4XwD6g/0_0.jpg ,instead most of them wear this http://img1.wikia.no...mbers4-GTAV.jpg ?Again,those are small errors,but it would be better if they didn´t made them.

-The member that you can find in some random encounter and bring him to their clubhouse tells Michael/Franklin that Angels Of Death are history.Did that mean that the Lost chase them away from San Andreas or wiped them out completely?They maybe did expand from Alderney and Liberty,but I can´t really see a club that just recently got more than two chapters(and one of those two was almost wiped out and forced to relocate to San Andreas)wiping out an international club like AOD.

-How did the Lost MC recover?In GTA 4 and EFLC we see that the Aldreney chapter was almost wiped out because of the internal war and the war with various other gangs(AOD,Pegorino mafia...)and Liberty chapter was weakened by Niko(while chasing Jason Michaels)and Luis(in that deal in TBOGT that the Lost ambushed),and no other chapter was mentioned.I guess the Alderney chapter relocated to San Andreas and recovered(either before or after moving),but in Underbelly of paradise they are described as one of the most powerful biker gang in US,how did they not just recovered but also expanded so fast?

-If the Lost and Uptown Riders are allied because of Johnny´s and Jim´s friendship with Malc and DeSean,why do the Lost bikers attack Franklin when he comes at their clubhouse even if he wears the UR clothes?

 

I know it sounds like a rant,but it´s not.Those are just a few things I think could have been made better.I feel like they just threw the Lost MC in GTA 5 just because they needed a biker gang riding chopper bikes in Blaine County,but they made no effort to make and explain their story or program their NPCs and vehicles,it´s just slightly better than what they did with the bikers from GTA SA(they were just thrown in the game,but there was nothing about them other than their presence,no missions,no informations,no character ever mentioned them,their MC didn´t even have a name,they weren´t even a real gang unless the game is modded).I would personally be happier if they used AOD in GTA 5 instead of Lost,they were enemies in previous games and Johnny,Terry and Clay would then still be alive.

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Grievous
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#23

Posted 01 June 2014 - 10:57 PM

The Angels of Death are "a myth" in today's San Andreas, how?

  1. To fuel some fan fiction dreams for the question of "where are they hiding?".
  2. Maybe Johnny Klebitz really was That Badass and squashed AoDs with his Hexer during the 2008-2013 time span. May even explain why he lost it, fallen in battle. And sought meth for comfort.
  3. The Angels of Death simply abandoned their Blaine County post. According to in-universe lore, they're an international gang. They may have relocated elsewhere, like Australia.

 

How did the Lost MC recover and expanded so quickly?

  1. Five years time span magic.
  2. Maybe Johnny did recovered the two million dollar briefcase and used it to fund the coast to coast operation. And in the meantime had enough spare change to become a severe meth addict.
  3. Exciting backstory reserved for DLC, who knows.

Aren't the Lost and Uptown Riders on friendly terms?

  1. It actually wasn't very clear in Lost and Damned just how much on friendly terms the Uptown Riders and the Lost were. Conversations with Malc indicated that he himself didn't knew much of the difference between the Lost and the Angels of Death, thinking they shared the same mentality and code.
  2. Every time Malc and DeSean appeared, Johnny was either alone, or with Jim, Terry and Clay, and never brought other Lost bikers around. And besides Malc and DeSean, Johnny never spoke or rode with any other Uptown Riders either, so it's also possible that it was only Johnny and Malc who were simply on good terms, didn't meant that both motorcycle club had an alliance.
  3. The five year span in between may have changed the Uptown Riders to a degree that the Lost simply don't consider them an ally anymore. Also, it's worth remembering that V showed that other Lost bikers disliked Johnny Klebitz and preferred Billy Grey. So it's not so far fetched that with Johnny dead, the Lost stops seeing any reason to be friendly with the Uptown Riders (and Franklin doesn't receive the Uptown Rider outfits until After Johnny's demise).

B Dawg
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#24

Posted 02 June 2014 - 08:54 AM

Maybe Johnny Klebitz really was That Badass and squashed AoDs with his Hexer during the 2008-2013 time span. May even explain why he lost it, fallen in battle. And sought meth for comfort.

Johnny: My bike! My beautiful bike! *cries* I let down my bike!

 

It's plausible :lol: but why not take another one from other Lost members.

 

@LeopardGecko It's sad how every Lost member in V is a skinny prettyface weak ass bitch, as opposed to big, buff and fat Alderney bikers, hell even regulars with face tattoos.

 

I mean, check this badass motherf*cket out :lol:

OzEpAfh.jpg

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Niobium
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#25

Posted 02 June 2014 - 02:04 PM

 

@LeopardGecko It's sad how every Lost member in V is a skinny prettyface weak ass bitch, as opposed to big, buff and fat Alderney bikers, hell even regulars with face tattoos.

 

 

ikr. even johnny looks like a skinny douche in V. i liked him more when he was buff and bulky in EFLC


Legomanarthur
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#26

Posted 02 June 2014 - 04:54 PM

Well I never noticed this topic before, and I don't have the energy to read everything that had been posted since then but I totally agree with you.

 

The way that the Lost are running everything in LS/BC is impossible and just poorly written. Yet I never met the biker who talk briefly about the death of the AoD (and I would like to, but well...). I mean it is clearly said in TLaD that the AoD is the most powerful biker gang in the West coast and the East coast too, well even in almost every state of America and more (gtawikia). It don't make any sense that the Lost, who are only based in Alderney and Liberty City could "destroy" the entire AoD in only 5 years (at least in LS/BC and maybe LC). In the end of TLaD, everything is lost (and damned) there's only Johnny, Angus, Terry, Clay and maybe about 10 members left who can still run the Lost in Alderney/LC, (there's also the lost in Broker, but I have no information on them so I can't tell) but as it is hinted during friend activities, Clay talk about going to the West coast sometimes, it happened, but there's no chance for them to take over the whole place without any problems. At least some AoD members from another place would have taken over the West coast again... I just... don't understand... :bored:

 

Well yeah, I understand, it's just poorly written and R* seems to don't give a f*ck anymore about TLaD... :sui:

 

For the Hexer, I can understand why it is everywhere. I think that the Johnny's Hexer was unique because of the people who made it. They might have added things that aren't present in the original Hexer, I can't tell you what, as I'm far away from being a bike expert. So that's maybe the reason why it is everywhere in BC, hell,  you can even see an Hexer inside Yusuf's appartment. But I don't know why the Lost members only uses two bikes as their rides (again it's just poorly written I guess).

 

Damn R*, why? Why so much hate on the Lost? Why so much bad writting? Why Trevor? :rol:

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LeopardGecko
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#27

Posted 02 June 2014 - 05:38 PM

Well I never noticed this topic before, and I don't have the energy to read everything that had been posted since then but I totally agree with you.

 

The way that the Lost are running everything in LS/BC is impossible and just poorly written. Yet I never met the biker who talk briefly about the death of the AoD (and I would like to, but well...). I mean it is clearly said in TLaD that the AoD is the most powerful biker gang in the West coast and the East coast too, well even in almost every state of America and more (gtawikia). It don't make any sense that the Lost, who are only based in Alderney and Liberty City could "destroy" the entire AoD in only 5 years (at least in LS/BC and maybe LC). In the end of TLaD, everything is lost (and damned) there's only Johnny, Angus, Terry, Clay and maybe about 10 members left who can still run the Lost in Alderney/LC, (there's also the lost in Broker, but I have no information on them so I can't tell) but as it is hinted during friend activities, Clay talk about going to the West coast sometimes, it happened, but there's no chance for them to take over the whole place without any problems. At least some AoD members from another place would have taken over the West coast again... I just... don't understand... :bored:

 

Well yeah, I understand, it's just poorly written and R* seems to don't give a f*ck anymore about TLaD... :sui:

 

For the Hexer, I can understand why it is everywhere. I think that the Johnny's Hexer was unique because of the people who made it. They might have added things that aren't present in the original Hexer, I can't tell you what, as I'm far away from being a bike expert. So that's maybe the reason why it is everywhere in BC, hell,  you can even see an Hexer inside Yusuf's appartment. But I don't know why the Lost members only uses two bikes as their rides (again it's just poorly written I guess).

 

Damn R*, why? Why so much hate on the Lost? Why so much bad writting? Why Trevor? :rol:

That biker that talks about AOD and Lost is on this video at 1:23:00

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chainsoar
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#28

Posted 04 June 2014 - 11:58 PM

It just bugs me in general that The Lost in GTA V are a complete bunch of absolute cocks. They're just overall presented as dumb, poorly organised and just...sh*t.

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LancerG2
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#29

Posted 08 June 2014 - 04:25 AM

 

That biker that talks about AOD and Lost is on this video at 1:23:00

 

 

That biker sounds like a total badass. Seems to be the only one that actually stands out with Terry, Johnny, and Clay.


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#30

Posted 09 June 2014 - 07:54 PM Edited by B Dawg, 09 June 2014 - 08:17 PM.

Why I Personally love TLMC Brotherhood in GTA IV: TLAD

 

dFaMShT.png

 

PxBvPlX.png

 

Some dead skinny prettyface deadbeats. Hardcore bikers only!

 

Ub7IfAf.png

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