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One thing that bothered me about TLaD...

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Ledsbourne
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#1

Posted 22 February 2014 - 11:52 PM

I have just recently finished the game and was greatly pleased of it, in fact I liked it more than IV even thought I'm finding the story to be a bit too short and leaving too much to the player's imagination - however, one thing that really was awkward about it is how Johnny and Jim act during "Was It Worth It?". They manage to free themselves from Ray's basement, Jim kills Boccino's henchman with an effective cut, they have the guy who just wanted to kill them on gunpoint... and they run away. They're damn badass bikers who kill hordes of mobsters during gang wars, but somehow do not shoot one guy that is certainly going to f*ck them up now no matter what they try to do. They well know that he will try to kill them after they escape and if they kill him, they just risk that his mafia family, which is in fact quite a weak one, finds out who did it and targets them. And before anyone finds the dead bodies in restaurant's basement, the bikers will have some time to flee the city with the money...

 

I just can't find any even remotely relevant excuse as to why they just didn't finish him off there. It's out of the character for them and things just can't get worse anyway. Of course, I know he had to survive and end up killing Jim to add more drama to TLaD story and make sense along the story of GTA IV - but wouldn't it make more sense if they shoot Ray thinking they wounded him fatally, but he would somehow survive because of having a body armor or get seriously injured and appear with some bondage after that. Can anyone come with some other explanation for that?


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#2

Posted 23 February 2014 - 05:09 AM

That goes for a bunch of good stories. How come Luke Skywalker didn't cut off Darth Vader's hand while they were talking and Vader was distracted? It would have ruined future drama.

 

From the story point of view, I suppose they didn't know what kind of heat would have come down on them if they killed Ray... 

Oh, and continuity error. Ray had to be alive to tell Niko to kill Jim (or supposedly body double, more on that conspiracy theory later)

Considering Niko's story was designed before Johnny's, they had to alter Johnny's in an unbelievable manner since their hands were tied. They definitely could have done something different... like Ray's gun was kicked to an unreachable spot before Jim could cut up the mobster... or something, whatever.

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B Dawg
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#3

Posted 23 February 2014 - 11:35 AM

Jim was terribly tortured, he had no strenght to fight Niko. The other biker not putting up a fight is unexcusable!


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#4

Posted 23 February 2014 - 01:39 PM Edited by Peachrocks, 23 February 2014 - 01:40 PM.

Yeah Ray had to live the sequence because Niko kills him much later in the plot. There were better ways to handle this, like Johnny finding out Jim was held captive from Ashley and him rescuing him but Ray escaping before Johnny could kill him. A bit 'standard' or unoriginal or whatever but at least they wouldn't have left him alive for no reason and they still could have had Jim being on the receiving end of 'interrogation'.


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#5

Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:09 AM Edited by Black & White, 24 February 2014 - 12:10 AM.

Yeah, it didn't make much sense. He could of simply finished him. I have a scenario. I guess Jim and Johnny were pretty anxious and weren't thinking straight. Perhaps they thought that they could simply run away from that situation and not get bothered ever again. Ray was also extremely powerful and had connections to most of the gangs in Liberty City.

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#6

Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:57 AM

Yeah, it didn't make much sense. He could of simply finished him. I have a scenario. I guess Jim and Johnny were pretty anxious and weren't thinking straight. Perhaps they thought that they could simply run away from that situation and not get bothered ever again. Ray was also extremely powerful and had connections to most of the gangs in Liberty City.

 

Did Johnny and the Lost know the Pegorino family was falling apart at this point, though? Did anyone? Or was it just around the time that Stubbs told Johnny that both Johnny and Niko figured it out?


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#7

Posted 24 February 2014 - 01:19 AM

 

Yeah, it didn't make much sense. He could of simply finished him. I have a scenario. I guess Jim and Johnny were pretty anxious and weren't thinking straight. Perhaps they thought that they could simply run away from that situation and not get bothered ever again. Ray was also extremely powerful and had connections to most of the gangs in Liberty City.

 

Did Johnny and the Lost know the Pegorino family was falling apart at this point, though? Did anyone? Or was it just around the time that Stubbs told Johnny that both Johnny and Niko figured it out?

 

 

I couldn't imagine so. The Lost weren't really involved with the Pegorino family. They mainly dealt with Ray Boccino. The Lost never mentioned the status of the Pegorino family in the missions.


Ledsbourne
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#8

Posted 24 February 2014 - 12:43 PM

I think Ray wasn't that powerful at all, he just tried to make himself look like a big boss. The five families never really took Pegorinos seriously and even Jimmy disliked and distrusted Ray. Phil Bell who was just an "associate" of the family had a bigger status and better reputation that Ray, who was seemingly a capo. And since Ray failed to succeed in the diamond situation, I doubt Jimmy would even bother with taking revenge on The Lost for his death, he would rather try to blame one of the families to get a reason to start a war with them.

 

Black & White's explanation about Johnny and Jim not thinking straight at the moment and just trying to run away seems quite believable thought.


Peachrocks
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#9

Posted 24 February 2014 - 03:09 PM

It's an oversight or more accurately they couldn't think of a better way to get Jim out of that basement while sparing Ray. The scenario needed to unfold differently for the same outcome but where have we heard that before? Still I can live with one minor plot inconsistency especially because there's a reason for it plot wise...

 

If they honestly believed Ray was powerful it'd be all the more reason to kill him in the hopes that it slow or hamper the response against them. They had just taken two million dollars from Ray, he is going to be sending a lot of resources to get it back. Johnny is of course unaware of the politics surrounding Ray and the fact he and his benefactors are crumbling until Stubbs tells him so and until then he seems legitimately concerned about him.

 

No... it simply doesn't wash, but as I said, I can live with a minor plot inconsistency especially because Ray simply had to die later in the plot. In hindsight, just writing the scenario differently would have been fine and not giving Jim and Johnny such an easy opportunity to kill him.


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#10

Posted 24 February 2014 - 05:52 PM

I felt like it made sense. Ray masqueraded as this big guy who had a lot of connections and influence, Jim probably thought that killing Ray would get not only them but the chapter in over their heads with the families.


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#11

Posted 24 February 2014 - 09:29 PM

I felt like it made sense. Ray masqueraded as this big guy who had a lot of connections and influence, Jim probably thought that killing Ray would get not only them but the chapter in over their heads with the families.

 

Are you kidding me? Johnny killed members of the Russian Mafia, the Jamaicans, the Albanian Mob and some more crime gangs. He blew up a popular politician with a rocket launcher. He could of easily killed Ray in the basement. Jim and Johnny could of easily buried him and nobody would know.

 

@ Ledsbourne - He was quite powerful. He was known for his violent temper and his disturbing ways of dealing with business. Very few people f*cked with him. All of them ended up dead in the end. He built several relationships with gangs. I remember when Niko was about to kill Ray, Ray was in a meeting with another gang. By then, he started moving into the drug business. He could of been something. Jimmy Pegorino relied on Ray as he was a good earner and Ray usually confronted Jimmy and gave him tips of up-coming deals.


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#12

Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:34 AM

 

 

 

Are you kidding me? Johnny killed members of the Russian Mafia, the Jamaicans, the Albanian Mob and some more crime gangs. He blew up a popular politician with a rocket launcher. He could of easily killed Ray in the basement. Jim and Johnny could of easily buried him and nobody would know.

 

 

 

This is where we differentiate between "canon" and "non-canon". According to the story, Johnny only has like 6 or 7 murders confirmed to progress the main story... less than either Niko or Luis. Of course, every GTA protagonist kills hundreds by the end of their story, but there's two realms of gameplay and cutscenes that don't always coincide. 

Oh... and just plain sh*tty character distortion. lol jonne in gta v lol gg cockstar


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#13

Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:48 PM

Are you kidding me? Johnny killed members of the Russian Mafia, the Jamaicans, the Albanian Mob and some more crime gangs. He blew up a popular politician with a rocket launcher. He could of easily killed Ray in the basement. Jim and Johnny could of easily buried him and nobody would know.

That is true but it doesn't mean in a story sense that Johnny would be able to take on all of these families. The Lost are a ragtag group of bikers too caught up in destroying themselves to be fit enough to compete in a war with the mafia. Him and Angus knew that they couldn't even compete with the Angels of Death let alone the families. In a gameplay sense Johnny could probably take on the entirety of every gang in Liberty City covering behind only a piece of concrete with an RPG but that is just stupid in story context.

The mobsters Johnny did kill in missions were more than likely just lowly regarded goons. Yeah they could have killed Ray, but someone would know. Either they'd see his body being dragged through the streets of LC to be buried or he would have likely informed some of his associates what he was going to do to Jim and Johnny and they would have made that connection. Even if that wasn't the case, Jim and Johnny did not know the extent of his influence. From what they knew of him he seemed highly regarded with a lot of connections, being able to supply The Lost with artillery like grenade launchers and all. Jim didn't have the time to sit around and weigh out the risks of taking out Boccino and was probably not thinking straight after being tortured so he just left it and fled.
 


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#14

Posted 25 February 2014 - 07:58 PM

 

Are you kidding me? Johnny killed members of the Russian Mafia, the Jamaicans, the Albanian Mob and some more crime gangs. He blew up a popular politician with a rocket launcher. He could of easily killed Ray in the basement. Jim and Johnny could of easily buried him and nobody would know.

Him and Angus knew that they couldn't even compete with the Angels of Death let alone the families.

The mobsters Johnny did kill in missions were more than likely just lowly regarded goons. Yeah they could have killed Ray, but someone would know. Either they'd see his body being dragged through the streets of LC to be buried or he would have likely informed some of his associates what he was going to do to Jim and Johnny and they would have made that connection. Even if that wasn't the case, Jim and Johnny did not know the extent of his influence. From what they knew of him he seemed highly regarded with a lot of connections, being able to supply The Lost with artillery like grenade launchers and all. Jim didn't have the time to sit around and weigh out the risks of taking out Boccino and was probably not thinking straight after being tortured so he just left it and fled.
 

 

 

So they say but over 50 Angels of Death MC members were massacred and slaughtered at their OWN clubhouse. There were many of them and not so many on the side of the Lost. If my memory is correct, there were 6 or 7 Lost MC members. But yeah, I couldn't say that I disagree with you. Sooner or later, Johnny would of been taken care off if he did murder Ray. The Pegorino family had some alliances with minor gangs in Liberty City. To avoid a war, I would assume that the gangs would pair up with the Pegorino family.

 

What I meant by "nobody would know".. if you compare to all of the people that were killed by Johnny, they were all gunned down and their bodies were left on the streets. Ray had a pretty good basement for proper burial.  :lol:  Seeing as you said that, I'm now starting to remember that Johnny didn't like pointless wars. The Lost MC inner circle was already f*cked up and some members split and set up a new faction. I seriously doubt Johnny would want to provoke another LC war, especially with the Mob. On saying that, Johnny managed to escape with all of the money that he stole during the diamond dealings. Ray was a caporegime. He ran a small faction of the Pegorino family. Jimmy Pegorino never really cared that Ray was killed, I doubt he would of cared if Ray was killed by an outsider. But he did have a wide range of influence and power.


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#15

Posted 25 February 2014 - 11:25 PM

Jim and Johnny had just stolen two million dollars from Ray. This is a point that cannot be stressed enough and funnily enough is completely ignored in the story. The fact there's another inconsistency here (why didn't they kill Ray) isn't exactly surprising.

 

Also it's Jim who is last seen with the money not Johnny (cough conspiracy theory cough).

 

One would logically think after doing something like that Ray and his organization is going to be sending any weight they can to retrieve the money in any way they can, through bodies or anything else whether Ray was dead or not.

 

Also Johnny conspires to steal the money or diamonds from Ray before taking them from Evan's corpse. Logically you can think he wouldn't have done that if he wasn't prepared for the consequences.

 

No matter how you look at it, it's inconsistent either way.


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#16

Posted 26 February 2014 - 02:10 AM

 

So they say but over 50 Angels of Death MC members were massacred and slaughtered at their OWN clubhouse. There were many of them and not so many on the side of the Lost. If my memory is correct, there were 6 or 7 Lost MC members. But yeah, I couldn't say that I disagree with you. Sooner or later, Johnny would of been taken care off if he did murder Ray. The Pegorino family had some alliances with minor gangs in Liberty City. To avoid a war, I would assume that the gangs would pair up with the Pegorino family.

 

What I meant by "nobody would know".. if you compare to all of the people that were killed by Johnny, they were all gunned down and their bodies were left on the streets. Ray had a pretty good basement for proper burial.  :lol:  Seeing as you said that, I'm now starting to remember that Johnny didn't like pointless wars. The Lost MC inner circle was already f*cked up and some members split and set up a new faction. I seriously doubt Johnny would want to provoke another LC war, especially with the Mob. On saying that, Johnny managed to escape with all of the money that he stole during the diamond dealings. Ray was a caporegime. He ran a small faction of the Pegorino family. Jimmy Pegorino never really cared that Ray was killed, I doubt he would of cared if Ray was killed by an outsider. But he did have a wide range of influence and power.

 

That is just one sliver of the Angels, it's said that they're pretty much a worldwide organization while the Lost only have a few known chapters and they're pretty weak in comparison. During the Clubhouse attack though The Lost did have the advantage despite their lack of numbers, disorienting and killing much of their gang with a grenade launcher made it hell of a lot easier I'd think :lol: There's no way a small, shattered gang like The Lost could take on all of the East Coast AOD chapters.

True that the basement would have been an easier way to conceal it, but not for long I'd imagine. Some of Ray's friends would have likely found him, made the connection to Johnny and would have lubed up all of the families to f*ck the remnants of their chapter right in the ass for good. That's why I feel it makes sense.. with so much infighting was Jim really going to put the entirety of The Lost's nuts on a chopping block just for one second for machismo revenge? Keep in mind I am talking about how Jim and Johnny would see this. In reality if Ray was killed there probably really wouldn't be all that great of a consequence, but in their perception Ray was mobster with a lot of stripes that obviously had enough clout to get connections for a damn grenade launcher :pp


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#17

Posted 26 February 2014 - 02:24 AM

The "not knowing" thing is also just implemented to keep a fun video game, a fun video game.

You think the cops would just forget about Niko after a triple-homicide and a nap in his bed?

And you think Johnny and Jim could easily escape Little Italy if they shot off a gun? (I'm surprised they got outta mob territory as easily as they did.)

But then again, if Johnny can sneak past TSA on a load f*cking motorcycle with an RPG in his anus and escape, you'd think he'd be able to flee some mobsters... I guess the criminals in this game are just far more resourceful than the cops.


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#18

Posted 26 February 2014 - 12:01 PM

Well, cannon-wise, Johnny didn't hesitate to launch a full scale attack on the state penitentiary with just 2 more helpers, killed heaps of guards, cops and antiterrorists and all that just to kill one guy. I really doubt he would think about the consequences of killing a mobster who just burned his best friend with a blowtorch, f*cked his on-and-off girlfriend right in his face and wanted him dead for stealing 2 million dollars :p And he did consider killing him anyway after Jim died, but Stubbs calmed him down about it.

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#19

Posted 26 February 2014 - 09:08 PM

Ah.. Perhaps Johnny was thinking of setting some kind of alliance with the Pegorino family. Once Ray was told by Niko that Johnny had stole the money, Ray probably told members of the Pegorino family. Maybe that's why he didn't kill Ray. It would of made a bigger problem. But as you said, he killed everyone in the federal prison just to kill one single person. Ah, well.. life goes on.  :lol: 


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#20

Posted 27 February 2014 - 12:01 AM

If we're talking "what bothered us about TLaD", that state pen thing is definitely f*cking up there.

An intense finale, granted, but holy sh*t was it ridiculous. Ironically enough, it seemed like Luis's ending was the most believable of the trilogy, driving a motorcycle up to a speeding plane rather than dirt bike jumping onto an attack helicopter in downtown LC or storming the prison with your drinking buddies.

Would have been more believable if they did something like stopping a prison transport or something... but hey, I did have plenty of fun with it.

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#21

Posted 27 February 2014 - 02:56 AM

If we're talking "what bothered us about TLaD", that state pen thing is definitely f*cking up there.

An intense finale, granted, but holy sh*t was it ridiculous. Ironically enough, it seemed like Luis's ending was the most believable of the trilogy, driving a motorcycle up to a speeding plane rather than dirt bike jumping onto an attack helicopter in downtown LC or storming the prison with your drinking buddies.

Would have been more believable if they did something like stopping a prison transport or something... but hey, I did have plenty of fun with it.

The discrepancy between the necessary story progression and gameplay is always so mucky in GTA games. Johnny will raid an entire prison killing tons of cops in the process but he won't smoke those few cops that were arresting Billy and rescue him. Somehow we as players can make sense of this though :lol:


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#22

Posted 27 February 2014 - 01:18 PM

If we're talking "what bothered us about TLaD", that state pen thing is definitely f*cking up there.

An intense finale, granted, but holy sh*t was it ridiculous. Ironically enough, it seemed like Luis's ending was the most believable of the trilogy, driving a motorcycle up to a speeding plane rather than dirt bike jumping onto an attack helicopter in downtown LC or storming the prison with your drinking buddies.

Would have been more believable if they did something like stopping a prison transport or something... but hey, I did have plenty of fun with it.

Yeah, the ending was way over the top, but it was one of the best final missions in GTA so I'm not complaining. There was a mission with stealing prison bus already in TLaD, and stopping the transport to kill the prisoner was in GTA IV, so no point adding another one. The most realistic way to handle that would be probably having a random member of The Lost get arrested and finishing Billy behind the bars, but that wouldn't be spectacular at all... Final mission that makes the player wander around a prison with a glass shatter, definitely not GTA style :p

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#23

Posted 25 May 2014 - 06:32 PM

If we're talking "what bothered us about TLaD", that state pen thing is definitely f*cking up there.

An intense finale, granted, but holy sh*t was it ridiculous. Ironically enough, it seemed like Luis's ending was the most believable of the trilogy, driving a motorcycle up to a speeding plane rather than dirt bike jumping onto an attack helicopter in downtown LC or storming the prison with your drinking buddies.

Would have been more believable if they did something like stopping a prison transport or something... but hey, I did have plenty of fun with it.

I don't have a problem with "Out of Commission" or "A Revenger's Tragedy", since I don't think the cops in the game's universe care if criminals kill each other.

 

I didn't have too big a problem with this either. Sure, it's over-the-top, but Stubbs was pulling strings for them, and I don't think it was quite the massacre story-wise that it was in gameplay.


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#24

Posted 26 May 2014 - 06:41 PM

Supposedly, the Rhino tank was planned to make an appearance in both IV and Lost & Damned.
It would have made more sense to crush through the penitentiary gates with a tank than just tossing a homemade pipe bomb.

It kind of itched me however that Stubbs had also said that Johnny ought to call him in case more assistance is needed during the cutscene; gameplay wise however, you can't call Stubbs until after the end credits.

Terry's van magically gave everything for free though, although I doubt that was what Stubbs meant by additional assistance ...

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#25

Posted 26 May 2014 - 08:19 PM Edited by B Dawg, 26 May 2014 - 08:20 PM.

Supposedly, the Rhino tank was planned to make an appearance in both IV and Lost & Damned.
It would have made more sense to crush through the penitentiary gates with a tank than just tossing a homemade pipe bomb.

I didn't know pipe bombs would work :lol:

Haven't you heard of Rocket Launchers? That makes it believable.


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#26

Posted 26 May 2014 - 10:56 PM

Any explosive works and in fact Johnny has a line for each.
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#27

Posted 27 May 2014 - 04:28 AM

Any explosive works and in fact Johnny has a line for each.

 

"Watch me blow open this door with this propane tank I awkwardly kicked all the way from a hot dog stand over here!"

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#28

Posted 27 May 2014 - 04:06 PM

 

Any explosive works and in fact Johnny has a line for each.

 

"Watch me blow open this door with this propane tank I awkwardly kicked all the way from a hot dog stand over here!"

 

Everytime I die on the Dukes/Broker island, the first thing I do is shoot the propane tank on the hot dog stand :)

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#29

Posted 27 May 2014 - 09:49 PM


 


Any explosive works and in fact Johnny has a line for each.

 
"Watch me blow open this door with this propane tank I awkwardly kicked all the way from a hot dog stand over here!"
 
Everytime I die on the Dukes/Broker island, the first thing I do is shoot the propane tank on the hot dog stand :)

That damn one on the corner? I have crashed into it too many a' times...

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#30

Posted 28 May 2014 - 02:00 PM

 

 

Any explosive works and in fact Johnny has a line for each.

 

"Watch me blow open this door with this propane tank I awkwardly kicked all the way from a hot dog stand over here!"

 

Everytime I die on the Dukes/Broker island, the first thing I do is shoot the propane tank on the hot dog stand :)

 

The good old days... I died, ran for the cop car in East Island City, crashed it into the burger stand,  died, ran for the cop car in East Island City, crashed it into the burger stand, died, ran for the cop car in East Island City, crashed it into the burger stand, died, ran for the cop car in East Island City, crashed it into the burger stand, died, ran for the cop car in East Island City, crashed it into the burger stand, died, ran for the cop car in East Island City, crashed it into the burger stand, died, ran for the cop car in East Island City, crashed it into the burger stand, ahhhh these were the days ;)





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