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Military Crisis in Ukraine

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ShootPeopleNotDope
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#1141

Posted A day ago


 

You just have seen the logo similar to the swastika, and are already talking about the nazis. Have a look at the Finnish Air Force logo (nowdays, also here). Don't you think that there is nothing relating to nazizm? They just choose not suitable symbol for themselves. Also you may check the REAL nazi organisations in Russia like DPNI and NSS. They are at least dangerous people with broken system of outlook (btw, sivispacem, you have talked about xenophobia in Russia, so check DPNI and NSS, they are so).

You would have a point if the FAF logo had the swastika placed on 45° angle with a red, black, and white color scheme like those cute little armbands the RNU wore. The FAF is also not a nationalist paramilitary organization, so you can't really compare the two at all.

 

 


 

And what about Russian National Unity, they are relative to the Black Hundred Movement which I belong to. There is no nazizm ideas among normal 'ethnic Russian nation' organisations, we just hope and fight for the conservative culture and Slavic nation unition and welfare (no hateness to EU and the USA, just reasonable criticism, no hatred against Muslims till the moment they go against us, in Novorossia we are allies). And most people from the Black Hundred have higher education and know English.

 

The Black Hundred Movement? Is that name derived from the anti-Semitic, xenophobic, Russian nationalist movement of the early 20th Century?

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Dageron RUS
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#1142

Posted A day ago Edited by Dageron RUS, A day ago.

Vlynor

 

RNU introduced not the exact swastika, but modificated symbol which has related links to Kolovrat. Personally, I don't like both of these symbols, swastika, at least, is dirty symbol not only because of the Third Reich, but because it has occult meaning. In Russian community we had enough debates about this, even RNU were partically against their 1990's logo.

 

My ideal is the classic Russian two-head eagle and Orhodox Cross. Nothing more. Also it should be noted, that now there is a lot of symbols, labels, flags, emblems... most of them make strict associations which are not always right. The main thing - ideology and real deeds. K^2 will be surprised, but organisations I talked about are against Putin (RNU - definitely).

 

ShootPeopleNotDope

 

 

You would have a point if the FAF logo had the swastika placed on 45° angle with a red, black, and white color scheme like those cute little armbands the RNU wore. The FAF is also not a nationalist paramilitary organization, so you can't really compare the two at all.

That was a small evidense that: swastika symbol != nazi organization at all times. Just a case when symbol is inappropriate and provocative for unnecessary accociations.

 

The Black Hundred Movement? Is that name derived from the anti-Semitic, xenophobic, Russian nationalist movement of the early 20th Century?

You are talking about the time of Black Hundred creation: ~ 1905 year, early XX. There was no xenophobia and anti-Semitism terms that time, but the conflicts were. We honor them not for national conflicts, but for the ideology that ethnic Russians should have rights on their land, and also they fought against bolsheviks during the Civil War in 1917-1922, were consistent monarchists and supported the Tsar.

 

And for sure: we are not interested in ati-Semitism and related idiotic things (thike Mason conspiracy, Jews run the world, etc.), we just know our history, we are monarchists and prefer ideology of traditional culture and Slavic union with Russia-centrism. This is not xenophobia, but a dream about the ideal country, most nations have such dreams and ideals to be strong as 'somewhere in past', and try to reach this.

 

There is just the rule: not to repeat the bad, remember the good.


waymuu
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#1143

Posted A day ago

Those silly eastern europeans...


Vlynor
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#1144

Posted A day ago Edited by Vlynor, A day ago.

Vlynor

RNU introduced not the exact swastika, but modificated symbol which, it has related links to Kolovrat. Personally, I don't like both of these symbols, swastika, at least, is dirty symbol not only because of the Third Reich, it has occult meaning. In Russian community we had enough debates about this, even RNU were partically against their 1990's logo.

 

My ideal is the classic Russian two-head eagle and Orhodox Cross. Nothing more. Also it should be noted, that now there is a lot of symbols, labels, flags, emblems... most of them make strict associations which are not always right. The main think - ideology and real deeds. K^2 will be surprised, but organisations I talked about are against Putin (RNU - definitely).

ShootPeopleNotDope

 

 

The Black Hundred Movement? Is that name derived from the anti-Semitic, xenophobic, Russian nationalist movement of the early 20th Century?
You are talking about the time of Black Hundred creation: ~ 1905 year, early XX. There was no xenophobia and anti-Semitism terms that time. We honor them not for national conflicts, but for the ideology that ethnic Russians shoild have rights on their land, and also they fought against bolsheviks during the Civil War in 1917-1922.

 

And for sure: we are not interested in ati-Semitism and related idiotic things (thike Mason conspiracy, Jews run the world, etc.), we just monarchists and prefer ideology of traditional culture and Slavic union with Russia-centrism. This is not xenophobia, this is an ideal of country, most nations have such dreams and ideals be strong as 'somewhere in past', and fight for it.

 

RNU is a member/affiliate of the World Union of National Socialists.

 

http://nationalsocia...net/members.htm

 

Scroll down to Russia. 

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Dageron RUS
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#1145

Posted A day ago

See more about the split in the organization. That part is no more exists.

English wiki has one article for RNU, while Russian one has two: 2000 and 1990.
 


Vlynor
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#1146

Posted A day ago

See more about the split in the organization. That part is no more exists.

English wiki has one article for RNU, while Russian one has two: 2000 and 1990.
 

 

The 2000 article says the following:

 

New "Russian National Unity" (All-Russian public patriotic movement) - Russian ultra-nationalist and unregistered paramilitary organization formed in 2000 as a result of the split of a single organization " Russian National Unity (1990) . " Governed by a board of regional commanders. Is a member of the International Organization " World Union of National Socialists "

 

And the 1990 article links to this website:

 

http://soratnik.com/

 

Which states goals of forming a unified, national-socialist Russia. 

 

Forgive the poor Google translations. 


ShootPeopleNotDope
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#1147

Posted A day ago Edited by ShootPeopleNotDope, A day ago.

Vlynor

RNU introduced not the exact swastika, but modificated symbol which, it has related links to Kolovrat. Personally, I don't like both of these symbols, swastika, at least, is dirty symbol not only because of the Third Reich, it has occult meaning. In Russian community we had enough debates about this, even RNU were partically against their 1990's logo.

 

My ideal is the classic Russian two-head eagle and Orhodox Cross. Nothing more. Also it should be noted, that now there is a lot of symbols, labels, flags, emblems... most of them make strict associations which are not always right. The main think - ideology and real deeds. K^2 will be surprised, but organisations I talked about are against Putin (RNU - definitely).

 

The RNU are against their own logo? What? I would imagine the only reason there's debates about this is because it makes the movement look bad from an outsider's perspective. It's not a serious condemnation of Nazism, but simply a PR move. A lot of fascist/neo-Nazi organizations tend to stray away from traditional far-right symbols for the same reason.

 

The Black Hundred Movement? Is that name derived from the anti-Semitic, xenophobic, Russian nationalist movement of the early 20th Century?
You are talking about the time of Black Hundred creation: ~ 1905 year, early XX. There was no xenophobia and anti-Semitism terms that time. We honor them not for national conflicts, but for the ideology that ethnic Russians shoild have rights on their land, and also they fought against bolsheviks during the Civil War in 1917-1922.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the second sentence. Are you suggesting that the Black Hundreds was not an inherently anti-Semitic movement? Or that it can simply be dismissed because anti-Semitism was rampant and largely unopposed at the time?

 

So you honor them for their populist nationalism, and rabid anti-communism? Hmm, what other ideologies consider both core tenets?

 

Would you consider your movement to be right-wing, left-wing, or neither?

 

 


That was a small evidense that: swastika symbol != nazi organization at all times. Just a case when symbol is inappropriate and provocative for unnecessary accociations.

I'm well aware that the swastika is not always a Nazi symbol, but when it's placed at a 45° angle, complete with the same color scheme used by the Nazis, and is worn on an armband by far-right nationalist paramilitaries, it's definitely a Nazi symbol.

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Dageron RUS
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#1148

Posted A day ago Edited by Dageron RUS, A day ago.

Vlynor

 

The 2000 year organisation is not led by Barkashov. During last 14 years it spent vast range of crizis and Demushkin in fact destroyed it. No one needs fake organisation of 5 persons which exists only on paper, let them make alliances how they want. The info I have 1990's RNU part is still led by Barkashov and take part in the East Ukraine events, cleaned from the ultra-nazi ideology which is mostly replcaed with rational and common national unity idea. At least, I saw Barkashov reports and info about soldiers they send to Novorossia.

ShootPeopleNotDope

 

The RNU are against their own logo? What? I would imagine the only reason there's debates about this is because it makes the movement look bad from an outsider's perspective. It's not a serious condemnation of Nazism, but simply a PR move. A lot of fascist/neo-Nazi organizations tend to stray away from traditional far-right symbols for the same reason.

You are definitely right, and this is an idiotic PR of swastika logo, such actions make more bad outlook by ordinary patriots and people, than anything good. So it were real debates regarding the proper logo. Since the old RNU effectives were replaced with the younger ones, that question became serious: you may be brave, you may love Russia and nation, be a patriot, but don't want to be associated with nazizm (while the organisation name and formilated ideology is OK: national unity, nothing provoking). This is the only info I know.

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the second sentence. Are you suggesting that the Black Hundreds was not an inherently anti-Semitic movement? Or that it can simply be dismissed because anti-Semitism was rampant and largely unopposed at the time?

You see, there were a lot of controversy things with the Jews in Russia at the beginning of XX century. If I start telling here that they had dishonest usurious business and therefore were blamed as like as because of their attitude to ethnic Russians which resulted in riots, then everyone call me as anti-Semite. So I would say that it were a lot of violence from both sides and a lot of point of views I don't want to share and reopen old questions.
 

 

So you honor them for their populist nationalism, and rabid anti-communism? Hmm, what other ideologies consider both core tenets?

Russian Black Hundreds first of all were brave soldiers (unofficial Empire army, due to the modern definition: military volunteers and vigilante groups) and defenders of ethnic Russian civillians in vast range of internal conflicts. It's normal when people save lifes of their nation-brothers, the problem is that national conflicts existed (and still exist in other cases). Also Black Hundreds were Christian Orthodox People, so let's remember the good things about them and honor as consistent defenders against any threat.
 
About the idiologies: anti-communism is good till this ideology is against cosmopolitism and idea of nation negation, but when anticommunism becomes hatred to the nation, it's bad (Russians are often associated with communism while they are suffered from it most of all, and it is bad when anticommunism becomes rusophobia). Other ideologies you linked to, I don't accept, they are not relative to Black Hundred. Black Hundred is directly based on the idea of Christian and traditional culture, while fascism/national-socialism is in touch with occult movements and open anti-Christian things in behaviour.

 

Would you consider your movement to be right-wing, left-wing, or neither?

Unfortunally left/right is outdated classification. Neither will be proper definition. From the left side: no huge business, nationalization, social goods, censorship (due to the nation interests), labor is important and should be proclaimed as the nation purpose. From the right side: private property, small business. And other things I dont know how to classify: traditional culture, conservative ideology, main value in life - family, children and parents, mutual assistance, parenting, education. So, everything for nation to be healthy and self-confident.


sivispacem
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#1149

Posted A day ago

You just have seen the logo similar to the swastika, and are already talking about the nazis. Have a look at the Finnish Air Force logo (nowdays, also here). Don't you think that there is nothing relating to nazizm? They just choose not suitable symbol for themselves. Also you may check the REAL nazi organisations in Russia like DPNI and NSS. They are at least dangerous people with broken system of outlook (btw, sivispacem, you have talked about xenophobia in Russia, so check DPNI and NSS, they are so).


The difference between the two is that the Finnish Air Force introduced that emblem in 1918 when the symbol stood for luck and success, whereas the RNU group was formed in 1990, well after the fall of the Third Reich.


I can't be the only one who sees the irony in this given that the main allegation levelled against the current regime in Kiev by separatists and the Russian state-sponsored media is that they're neo-Nazis; as if the movement were partially a rallying against the far right. And yet the individuals in command of the separatist units and heavily involved in the fighting against Ukrainian troops are members of Fascist paramilitaries.

Stalin would be spinning in his grave to see the Russian state actively sponsoring neo-Nazi paramilitaries to conduct foreign operations.
 

Unfortunally left/right is outdated classification.

From my experience, the main people who make the argument that right and left aren't sufficient for categorisation when it comes to Fascism are Fascists.

Also, "anti-Communism" isn't an ideology. It's what Fascists and neo-Nazis call their beliefs so they don't have to call them Fascist or neo-Nazi. Case in point "rock against Communism", which is really just a synonym for white power, neo-Nazi punk from the 80's and early 90's.
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Dageron RUS
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#1150

Posted A day ago Edited by Dageron RUS, A day ago.

I can't be the only one who sees the irony in this given that the main allegation levelled against the current regime in Kiev by separatists and the Russian state-sponsored media is that they're neo-Nazis; as if the movement were partially a rallying against the far right. And yet the individuals in command of the separatist units and heavily involved in the fighting against Ukrainian troops are members of Fascist paramilitaries.

I will be very suprised if Barkashov's name and anything about RNU will be mentioned in any official Russian media area... As have already mentioned, the external aesthetics and chosen symbols are not always correspond to the actual fact of ideology. Not the words are important, but the real deeds.

 

Different organizations are involved in Ukraine events: here are patriots of the Russian Empire and the Soviet Union. War reconciled many people who previously were in conflict, external common enemy was the common factor for everyone. It is possible pull facts and photos, but the concept won't change. We do not allow radicalism in our ranks. But if someone is brave and can fight against Ukraine, everyhing else is secondary, just be a part of mainstream.

 

To complete image: the real Russian neo-Nazi organisations DNPI and NSS are against Donbass rebellion and supported a lot Ukraine Azov batallion with volunteers, which dead in Donbass region not so time ago.

 

Stalin would be spinning in his grave to see the Russian state actively sponsoring neo-Nazi paramilitaries to conduct foreign operations.

To be honest: Stalin would deal with the whole Ukraine in the couple days, conquered not only the Donbass, but Kiev. Denial of the Soviet Union outskirts independence was one of the most important internal politics mainstream.

 

Also, "anti-Communism" isn't an ideology. It's what Fascists and neo-Nazis call their beliefs so they don't have to call them Fascist or neo-Nazi. Case in point "rock against Communism", which is really just a synonym for white power, neo-Nazi punk from the 80's and early 90's.

This this substitution of concepts. For example: liberal, democratic and anti-Soviet movement in the Eastern Europe (the Warsaw Pact countries) in the late 1980s was anti-communist. Not a fascist. Anti-communism is a component of any ideology that does not support lack of private property and denial of a nation conept (including the right to self-determination if not in conflict with other nations).


Svip
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#1151

Posted A day ago


Also, "anti-Communism" isn't an ideology. It's what Fascists and neo-Nazis call their beliefs so they don't have to call them Fascist or neo-Nazi. Case in point "rock against Communism", which is really just a synonym for white power, neo-Nazi punk from the 80's and early 90's.

This this substitution of concepts. For example: liberal, democratic and anti-Soviet movement in the Eastern Europe (the Warsaw Pact countries) in the late 1980s was anti-communist. Not a fascist. Anti-communism is a component of any ideology that does not support lack of private property and denial of a nation conept (including the right to self-determination if not in conflict with other nations).

 

 

Which just underlines his point:  Saying you are anti-communist avoid saying what you are for.  The liberal and democratic movements in Eastern Europe just happened to be anti-communist, because communism (at least Soviet communism) were at odds with their ideologies.  Moreover, these movements might have used the label 'anti-communist', but they certainly used it together with other far more descriptive labels (such as 'liberal' and 'democratic').


Dageron RUS
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#1152

Posted A day ago Edited by Dageron RUS, A day ago.

Russia still has communism threat inside and people who glorify everything related to SU, without definition what was good and bad. So the anti-communism in the ideology of Russian-centric patriots is an evidence of their opposition to SU radical patriots.

And I have said what for we are.

From the left side: no huge business, but nationalization, social goods, censorship (due to the nation interests), labor is important and should be proclaimed as the nation purpose. From the right side: private property, small business. And other things I dont know how to classify: traditional culture, conservative ideology, main value in life - family, children and parents, mutual assistance, parenting, education. So, everything for nation to be healthy and self-confident.

RoadRunner71
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#1153

Posted A day ago Edited by RoadRunner71, A day ago.

MichaelJacksoneatingcornpops.gif

I find funny those people who dream with their countries forming a huge empire like 300 years ago, thinking it would be the solution for every problem, yet they can't manage to make their current country a decent country.

sivispacem
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#1154

Posted A day ago

I can't be the only one who sees the irony in this given that the main allegation levelled against the current regime in Kiev by separatists and the Russian state-sponsored media is that they're neo-Nazis; as if the movement were partially a rallying against the far right. And yet the individuals in command of the separatist units and heavily involved in the fighting against Ukrainian troops are members of Fascist paramilitaries.

I will be very suprised if Barkashov's name and anything about RNU will be mentioned in any official Russian media area... As have already mentioned, the external aesthetics and chosen symbols are not always correspond to the actual fact of ideology. Not the words are important, but the real deeds.
What, like defending Russian military police and service personnel who conducted massacres of Chechen civilians during the First and Second Chechen wars on the grounds that Chechens were subhuman and deserved to be slaughtered, campaigning for a racially pure Russia Russia, supporters the expulsion of all races with "homelands outside Russia" and having members who kidnapped and executed ethnic Dagestani citizens, desecrated Jewish cemeteries and fire-bombed the headquarters of organisations campaigning against racism?

Real deeds are indeed important. The reason this kind of thing avoids substantial public discussion in the Russian media is because the Kremlin has effectively supplied and armed a neo-Nazi organisation to fight alleged and imaginary neo-Nazis in Ukraine. Even the most brainwashed of Russian mass media consumers would start asking questions about who the real fascists were in that situation. You can't expect reasonable, free and unbiased discussion from the state-run media of a spookocracy where the public is deliberately starved of independant information and external analysis in favour of Stalinist ultra-nationalist propaganda.


You still aren't really responding to my comments about anti-Communism not being a defined analogy but a euphemism for Fascism and neo-Nazism. Saying that there's a pro-Communist underbelly and that not all people opposed to communism are Fascists doesn't change the fact that the only organisations that categorise themselves as explicitly anti-Communist are Fascist.
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George Apatic
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#1155

Posted 18 hours ago

LOL. 

I see that a lot of people think that Putin is interested in saving Russians, that he is Russian nationalist, that he want to protect Donbass and Lugansk from ukrainian nazis.

You should understand: Putin is the first enemy for every Russian man. He is national traitor and coward.

 

He prefer to watch how ukrainian forces killed Russians in East Ukraine, than military intervation that can save a lot of lives of peaceful people.

 

Please don't think that we are watching russian TV channels or another pro-goverment media. Actually we hate it.

 

And btw u should know that there is very massive and strong media-attack to the Strelkov and his forces. Just because Putin is afraid of this situation. He want to "drop" Novorossiya and forget about it like about terrible nightmare. 

 

I think your President will never have no doubt to start intervention in situation like this (particularly after Vietnam, Iraq, Afgan, Syria and so on, and on, and on... lol). 

 

You are calling us "victims of Russian propaganda". Did u ever think that real victims of propaganda are you? It's very сгеу irony of fate.

 

Sorry about my English I had no practice for many years.

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sivispacem
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#1156

Posted 17 hours ago

I can't help but notice that you appear to have signed up to this forum solely to respond to this thread. Albeit in a way which doesn't, strictly speaking, address any of the points that have been made.

In a game of "balance of probability", who is the more likely victim of propaganda? The citizens of the authoritarian counterintelligence state languishing at the bottom of most freedom indices, or the citizens of the liberal democracy near the top of it?

ShootPeopleNotDope
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#1157

Posted 17 hours ago Edited by ShootPeopleNotDope, 17 hours ago.

He may not realize it, but he's actually doing wonders to prove the point that the separatists are more-or-less a coalition of Russian neo-Nazi/fascist organizations. I mean, that avatar says it all.

 

I gotta say, I did Nazi that coming.

 

(Sorry, I couldn't resist. Kinda like the ordinary working people living under the boot of the separatists. BOOM.)

 

(Sorry for that too^)

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sivispacem
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#1158

Posted 3 hours ago

Amnesty International have just released a fairly substantial report on events in Eastern Ukraine.

http://www.amnesty.o...ture-2014-07-11

The net conclusion seems to be that there's significant empirical evidence of organised abduction, torture and in some cases murders being conducted by so-called "freedom fighters" in the the East, specifically targeting journalists and pro-Ukrainian activists. For the sake of balance it does also mention abductions and beatings conducted by pro-Kiev militias but the crux is that these attacks are overwhelmingly being conducted by separatist militias.



And people have the audacity to call it a popular movement. If it was truly "popular" they wouldn't need to abduct and torture their opponents.

K^2
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#1159

Posted An hour ago

I mean, that avatar says it all.

To be fair, the avatar is of a character from a famous Soviet mini-series Seventeen Moments of Spring. This character is a Soviet spy working under cover in Germany during WWII. Hence the Nazi uniform. So this isn't some pro-Nazi thing. Just the opposite, in fact.

That said, he's totally brain-washed.




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