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Are mapping conventions Euro-centric? Should that change?

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Svip
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#91

Posted 18 February 2014 - 09:06 AM

You say you are passionate about cartography, and yet you like Gall-Peters?  I hate you.

 

zdLKd3N.png

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hornedturtle
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#92

Posted 18 February 2014 - 09:07 AM

If changing the map served an actual purpose and there was an actual argument for it, I'd be on board. But to change it just so you can feel a bit better by "saving" those "oppressed" Asians, Africans, and South Americans is just stupid.

haha.
how do we solve world poverty?
Devolop planes to build infrastructure?
Provide training to help to create competitive production?
f*ck all that sh*t.....let's just make a new map.
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Frank Brown
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#93

Posted 18 February 2014 - 09:20 AM Edited by Vlynor, 18 February 2014 - 09:21 AM.

Melch:

This is actually pretty off topic, but I know you're big on the love everybody, fight poverty, f*ck oppression thing. I have to ask, what have you done to help fix the wrongs that need righting?

And please don't only say "raise awareness".

hornedturtle
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#94

Posted 18 February 2014 - 09:26 AM

This is actually pretty off topic, but I know you're big on the love everybody, fight poverty, f*ck oppression thing. I have to ask, what have you done to help fix the wrongs that need righting?

And please don't only say "raise awareness".


there is a good old saying, if you can't support yourself, you shouldn't give your sh*t away.

Also it's not as simple as throwing money at the problem, there needs to be an actual long term plan to restore said country to a self sufficient state.

To be honest I can't be f*cked going into further detail but basically I am not in a position to make the changes required to solve world poverty.

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#95

Posted 18 February 2014 - 09:29 AM

This is actually pretty off topic, but I know you're big on the love everybody, fight poverty, f*ck oppression thing. I have to ask, what have you done to help fix the wrongs that need righting?
And please don't only say "raise awareness".


there is a good old saying, if you can't support yourself, you shouldn't give your sh*t away.
Also it's not as simple as throwing money at the problem, there needs to be an actual long term plan to restore said country to a self sufficient state.
To be honest I can't be f*cked going into further detail but basically I am not in a position to make the changes required to solve world poverty.

That was aimed at Melchior, not you. My fault.
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#96

Posted 18 February 2014 - 12:38 PM

Y'know, when I opened this thread I thought I'd be looking at something related to a) having the prime meridian as the centre of maps (and thus Europe) or b) an xkcd-related map scale discussion.

 

Here I was, gall-peters in hand because area matters, and wanting to what in the hell did I just wade through. 

 

I'm just gonna comment on the turn-it-upside-down-because-otherwise-it's-just-Europe-being-racist (seriously, what am I reading?): surely it's now Africa being racist towards the Europeans? What makes that different? Using your...pretty retarded 'reasoning', of course. 


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#97

Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:06 PM

I want to add a citation to Melchior's original thesis here; white people have decidedly average sized penises. Literally, the white man is average in world phallus length. Asians generally have shorter penises. YOUR WHOLE ARGUMENT IS NOW INVALID MELCHIOR, BOW TO ME AND MY AVERAGE SIZED PENIS.


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#98

Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:08 PM

I want to add a citation to Melchior's original thesis here; white people have decidedly average sized penises. Literally, the white man is average in world phallus length. Asians generally have shorter penises. YOUR WHOLE ARGUMENT IS NOW INVALID MELCHIOR, BOW TO ME AND MY AVERAGE SIZED PENIS.

 

Melchior is of African descent. His schlong is a sword compared to your dagger.


Svip
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#99

Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:15 PM

 

I want to add a citation to Melchior's original thesis here; white people have decidedly average sized penises. Literally, the white man is average in world phallus length. Asians generally have shorter penises. YOUR WHOLE ARGUMENT IS NOW INVALID MELCHIOR, BOW TO ME AND MY AVERAGE SIZED PENIS.

 

Melchior is of African descent. His schlong is a sword compared to your dagger.

 

 

And yet he needs to make a topic talking about it.  Clearly he has some inferior complexities.

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Mr. House
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#100

Posted 18 February 2014 - 01:39 PM

 

I want to add a citation to Melchior's original thesis here; white people have decidedly average sized penises. Literally, the white man is average in world phallus length. Asians generally have shorter penises. YOUR WHOLE ARGUMENT IS NOW INVALID MELCHIOR, BOW TO ME AND MY AVERAGE SIZED PENIS.

 

Melchior is of African descent. His schlong is a sword compared to your dagger.

 

Hey, you never complained before.


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#101

Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:03 PM

 

 

I want to add a citation to Melchior's original thesis here; white people have decidedly average sized penises. Literally, the white man is average in world phallus length. Asians generally have shorter penises. YOUR WHOLE ARGUMENT IS NOW INVALID MELCHIOR, BOW TO ME AND MY AVERAGE SIZED PENIS.

 

Melchior is of African descent. His schlong is a sword compared to your dagger.

 

 

And yet he needs to make a topic talking about it.  Clearly he has some inferior complexities.

 

 

Not inferiority. He just wants to call you out on your average-sized dicks. Subconsciously implanting in your brain the idea that his ancestors, and him, have humongous ones.
 

 

 

 

I want to add a citation to Melchior's original thesis here; white people have decidedly average sized penises. Literally, the white man is average in world phallus length. Asians generally have shorter penises. YOUR WHOLE ARGUMENT IS NOW INVALID MELCHIOR, BOW TO ME AND MY AVERAGE SIZED PENIS.

 

Melchior is of African descent. His schlong is a sword compared to your dagger.

 

Hey, you never complained before.

 

 

I didn't, but that's because you hit every spot soooo right.

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Svip
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#102

Posted 18 February 2014 - 02:08 PM

Not inferiority. He just wants to call you out on your average-sized dicks. Subconsciously implanting in your brain the idea that his ancestors, and him, have humongous ones.

 

Well, it didn't work.  I don't have any issues or worries in that department.  It's like he is going to swoop in and steal ladies from me.  In addition, there are limits to what can fit inside a lady.

 

I still do not understand why he did it all in the cover of talking about map projections rather than just come out and say our penises are tiny.


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#103

Posted 18 February 2014 - 04:21 PM

....This thread is abomination. 

 

Sorry. I don't come flat out and say it, since I try to be nice to everyone, but since when do maps of the world affect the size of our penises? 


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#104

Posted 18 February 2014 - 05:14 PM

In addition, there are limits to what can fit inside a lady.

I've seen some videos that would suggest otherwise.

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#105

Posted 19 February 2014 - 01:29 PM Edited by Shyabang Shyabang, 19 February 2014 - 01:58 PM.

I still don't understand why maps should be horizontally based on the equator.

 

This is how the world map should look:

 

newworld.jpg

 

That map has Antarctica and the Arctic Ocean fused together.

Crossing the Arctic Ocean from Eurasia should get you to North America.

And crossing Antarctica from South America should get you to Africa, the Indian Ocean, or Australia/New Zealand (and the Pacific Ocean around Australia/New Zealand).


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#106

Posted 19 February 2014 - 09:08 PM

I think the idea that it's Euro centrism is a little off. If you look at the Soviet Union's maps, many had centered the world on Russia... Nazi German maps on Germany... and American maps centered on America..... the link at the bottom has like ten or fifteen maps centered on numerous countries.. PRC, even NZ.

 

Honestly, as a student of international politics/affairs and security policy and someone who should care... I frankly give a flying f*ck. I really just don't see it as an important issue. Countries will put themselves at the center of a flat map... it's the way it is. At the end of the day, the world is an oblate spheroid (fancy word for round) anyway so I see it as moot.

 

america-centered-world-map.jpg

 

World%2BMap%2BPacific.jpg

 

 

http://www.ucis.pitt...rismexcerpt.pdf

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#107

Posted 13 April 2014 - 05:26 AM

I'm not sure that maps were established or maintained as a means of cultural domination. If modern cartography has that effect or propagates a certain worldview it's worth looking into. Cartography is literally how we view the world so I don't understand the dismissive attitude Melchior is getting here. Size does matter to a lot of people in their understanding of things so I think it's a valid discussion to be had.

 

Culturally we believe that bigger is better, so if we have a map where a country is inaccurately displayed it could be having a psychological effect on people in either the 'big' or 'little' places. It might be part of the reason why the US populace only cares abstractly for problems elsewhere in the world, if they're so tiny on the map why should we care if their illiterate, or impoverished?

 

Practical reasons might and should dictate the use of certain maps in certain contexts. Global trade can't be upended to adjust a map but we shouldn't just exclude a line of inquiry because of established norms.

 

Also, if for nothing else I appreciate the upside down map as a good thought exercise. Looking up towards Antarctica with so many of the worlds major population centers concentrated at the bottom of the map. Would it be a different world if we understood it that way?
Blank-map-world-south-up.png


Rown :rampage:


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#108

Posted 14 April 2014 - 05:27 AM Edited by D4 Damager, 14 April 2014 - 05:28 AM.

OK I've done that thing that I do where I number points in longer posts when I quote them so that I don't trip over myself with the bbcode and create a formatting abortion.

 

1. I'm not sure that maps were established or maintained as a means of cultural domination. If modern cartography has that effect or propagates a certain worldview it's worth looking into. Cartography is literally how we view the world so I don't understand the dismissive attitude Melchior is getting here. Size does matter to a lot of people in their understanding of things so I think it's a valid discussion to be had.

 

2. Culturally we believe that bigger is better, so if we have a map where a country is inaccurately displayed it could be having a psychological effect on people in either the 'big' or 'little' places. It might be part of the reason why the US populace only cares abstractly for problems elsewhere in the world, if they're so tiny on the map why should we care if their illiterate, or impoverished?

 

3. Practical reasons might and should dictate the use of certain maps in certain contexts. Global trade can't be upended to adjust a map but we shouldn't just exclude a line of inquiry because of established norms.

 

4. Also, if for nothing else I appreciate the upside down map as a good thought exercise. Looking up towards Antarctica with so many of the worlds major population centers concentrated at the bottom of the map. Would it be a different world if we understood it that way?
 

<image>

Rown :rampage:

Before I spout off it's probably best if I note that much of this is just theory. Cartography isn't my forté although I do have a strong interest in sociology.

 

1. I don't think cartography was ever really intented to be used as a tool of subjugation against Africans (at the time when much of Africa was being mapped the West was already doing much of that in a much less subtle manner through missionaries and the slave trade) but maps have definitely been used as tools for jingoistic propaganda in the past. The British Empire was always daubed in red on maps and seeing much of the world under our control probably led to a much greater sense of patriotic pride and an ability to feel more powerful than other countries. However the countries that could be psyched out by such map-making tricks (Russia, France, Germany, Austria-Hungary) were all countries that had access to their own maps. Control in the countries that were controlled was much less subtle and more brutal than that.

 

Do I think that the current map-making system propagates a 'Euro-centric' point of view? Not really, or at least not any more. Now they're just that way for navigation purposes and most people know that the scale of Mercator Projection goes badly wrong the further you go from the Equator.

 

I know my opinion isn't really valid on this issue but I do think that since much of the population of the Earth lives above the Equator, it makes sense for those countries to be slightly more prominent. And on the whole we've got bigger issues to face up to than this stuff.

 

Oh, and as for why Melchior got a bit of stick in this thread, it's probably down to the title which apparently mentioned penis sizes (and which Otter has since edited to make more sensible).

 

2. I think that's more down to sociological reasons than maps. We all find it much more difficult to relate to somebody who's not in our in-group and that probably explains why we're often so ambivalent towards their plight.

 

And regarding the US only caring for the rest of the world in abstract terms, I don't think that's necessarily fair. Your news is more centred on your own people than, say, the BBC news over here but that's because you have a much bigger population and landmass. Regardless of that it's pretty normal for the news and polls to be focused more on your country than any others -- and I don't think that's because of mapping conventions, just down to people being more interested in the fates of people who are like them.

 

3. The established norms are changing; the Mercator projection is on the way out apart from in navigation, and flat projections of the world are being gradually replaced by globes. My own position on the matter is that it doesn't really make a difference what size a particular country is on a map -- it doesn't affect my view of Norwegians that their country is dwarfed by Greenland, and we really do have bigger fish to fry in terms of Africa than just flipping the map around to please some revisionists with an agenda.

 

4. This is probably as much down to the amount of exposure I have had to maps that are the 'right' way round in my lifetime as anything else, but I'm quite happy to see much of the landmass and population at the top. Would I care if it was the other way round though? Not really, although I'd probably not understand the rationale for a change so late in the day.

 

D4's Take on Penis Sizes

 

Apologies for the slightly lengthier than originally planned comment about penises, but it's tenously related to the original argument at hand and so I thought I'd pop it in here.

 

Firstly, the common mapping of penis sizes in the world (clicky) is open to question because it's based on a lot of different studies done in different places and at different times which probably had different sample sizes and which may have even been conducted in different ways. With that in mind I take the conclusions with a pinch of salt. But looking at the conclusions from the map it doesn't exactly point towards Africans being extraordinarily well-hung and everyone else being pitifully inadequate. South-East Asians clearly seem to have smaller penises than everyone else but the rest of the countries seem to cluster between 5.1 and 6.1 inches on average (there are only 3 countries with an average length of over 6.3 inches that I can see and they don't really have too much in common). So that's between 12.9 and 15.6cm for the majority of the world between the USA and Afghanistan, after which sizes go down. That's hardly a massive difference and could easily be explained away by differences in measuring techniques or even just by the age of people who are surveyed (it's estimated that penises lose about 1/2 an inch in length between the ages of 30 and 50 so it's entirely possible that Ghanaian researchers chose more virile young men than American researchers did, for example).

 

Anyway, it shouldn't be a surprise that the biggest penises belong to a sub-section of Africans. If anything it should be obvious. Africa has the greatest genetic diversity of any continent and Sub-Saharan Africa the greatest of any region, which ties in with the 'Out of Africa' theory of global migration. So by the same logic we should expect to find both the largest penises and the smallest penises in the world in ethnic groups in Sub-Saharan Africa. Not much word on the latter front yet, but I believe...

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#109

Posted 23 June 2014 - 07:11 PM

So this thread talks about continents and dicks ... wow ..


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#110

Posted 23 June 2014 - 07:23 PM

A two month bump for that sh*t post isn't going to fly.
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#111

Posted 01 September 2014 - 10:20 AM

From a picture posted by the Economist on Facebook.

Article here: http://www.economist...ruesizeofafrica

I thought this could be interesting for some of the people in this topic.

997056_10152655312289060_914238348497415





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