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Should lying about being in the military land you in prison?

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theadmiral
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#31

Posted 05 January 2014 - 03:02 AM

 

How is manipulating someone into sex not comparable to rape? But again, this is for a different thread.

 

 

 

Wouldn't it be because one is consensual, even if under false pretenses,  and rape is not?


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#32

Posted 05 January 2014 - 03:03 AM

 

 

How is manipulating someone into sex not comparable to rape? But again, this is for a different thread.

 

 

 

Wouldn't it be because one is consensual, even if under false pretenses,  and rape is not?

 

 

This. If I tell you I'm a garbageman and I'm actually an electrical engineer, (don't ask why I chose these two), and you decide to sleep with me, I'm a borderline rapist?


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#33

Posted 05 January 2014 - 03:09 AM

 

 

How is manipulating someone into sex not comparable to rape? But again, this is for a different thread.

 

 

 

Wouldn't it be because one is consensual, even if under false pretenses,  and rape is not?

 

A child can "consent", a person who is black-out drunk can "consent", so you don't really have a point here. 

 

 

 

 

 

How is manipulating someone into sex not comparable to rape? But again, this is for a different thread.

 

 

 

Wouldn't it be because one is consensual, even if under false pretenses,  and rape is not?

 

 

This. If I tell you I'm a garbageman and I'm actually an electrical engineer, (don't ask why I chose these two), and you decide to sleep with me, I'm a borderline rapist?

 

Yes, you've manipulated another person to have sex with you, you have coerced them--albeit without drugs, alcohol, or physical violence--and that is evidently comparable to rape.

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theadmiral
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#34

Posted 05 January 2014 - 03:10 AM

So what about women who lie about their age? Are they rapists?


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#35

Posted 05 January 2014 - 03:14 AM

This is an entirely different subject, but if I said I was a police woman and we had sex, or if I said I was 21 and I was really 39 and I gave you a blowjob, you would feel raped and I should be branded a rapist? I'm guessing the answer is no.

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#36

Posted 11 April 2014 - 10:11 PM

Since Employers (by law) have to give Veterans privilege when applying, Yes making false statements about military service should grant jail time. Same goes for Politicians who inflate their service record, and if they never served then triple time in jail.

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#37

Posted 11 April 2014 - 10:23 PM Edited by Melchior, 11 April 2014 - 10:24 PM.

Rape by deception is a crime in a number of jurisdictions, but it's incredibly difficult to enforce, so it often isn't. It is within the realm of possibility that, were you to lie to someone about your religion, career or marital status, they would have you prosecuted. If you were literally pretending to be someone else- for instance, someone they met online- and they can prove it, you'd be convicted for rape.

 

As for my personal views on the matter, I'd say it's definitely rape. You can't consent to something you are being lied to about.


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#38

Posted 11 April 2014 - 10:34 PM

Since Employers (by law) have to give Veterans privilege when applying, Yes making false statements about military service should grant jail time. Same goes for Politicians who inflate their service record, and if they never served then triple time in jail.

Agree with that, the worst cases are those who lie about receiving medals. Though I believe they've revoked the Stolen Valor act, though I could be wrong but I think someone here linked to it at some point. A guy who had charges for Stolen Valor was acquitted because it was just a 'lie' or 'free speech'.

 

I feel that those who portray to be a member of the Armed Forces though they aren't should instead be given enlistment rather than jail. Put their money where their mouth is.

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Melchior
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#39

Posted 11 April 2014 - 10:37 PM

 

Since Employers (by law) have to give Veterans privilege when applying, Yes making false statements about military service should grant jail time. Same goes for Politicians who inflate their service record, and if they never served then triple time in jail.

Agree with that, the worst cases are those who lie about receiving medals. Though I believe they've revoked the Stolen Valor act, though I could be wrong but I think someone here linked to it at some point. A guy who had charges for Stolen Valor was acquitted because it was just a 'lie' or 'free speech'.

 

I feel that those who portray to be a member of the Armed Forces though they aren't should instead be given enlistment rather than jail. Put their money where their mouth is.

 

Right so if I pretend to be a school teacher, I should be forced to teach?

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#40

Posted 11 April 2014 - 10:38 PM

Sure.. since you want to be one, why not?


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#41

Posted 12 April 2014 - 04:10 AM Edited by Lil ski, 12 April 2014 - 04:14 AM.

f*ck yeah they should be jailed! Or at least a huge ass fine (which would go to a military charity like The Wounded Warrior Program.) I hate seeing that disgraceful sh*t. Especially those who claimed that they were ex special forces or some sh*t and got 2000 confirmed sniper kills like it's their KD ratio. And also seeing fakers in uniform wearing SF and Ranger tabs and sh*tload of badges (all worn incorrectly btw.). Look if you want the glory of being a soldier/marine/airman/sailor and have some "cool" war stories, then sign your ass up. Otherwise don't perpetrate the real men and women who put their lives on the line and the real SF guys who went through life threatening training just to earn that damn tab!
You know what, f*ck a jail sentence. It should be 100% legal grounds for a service member or vet to beat that nigga's ass when they bust him out.

(Lol funny story; years back there was an Army Times article that had an active duty faker who claimed to everyone and his girlfriend that he had the Medal of Honor, a DSM and 10 Purple Hearts and a bunch of bullsh*t. They had his sad face in full uniform on the FRONT PAGE with big red letters "FRAUD!!". He looked so embarrassed. f*cking dick cheese ..)

Phew....sorry about the rage guys but being an active duty SM and seeing that disgraceful sh*t all the time really grinds my black nuts! :pp

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#42

Posted 12 April 2014 - 04:13 AM

Unless you're doing it for some sort of personal gain, no it shouldn't be illegal. Otherwise, we would have to imprison everyone who has ever posted that copypasta about having over 300 confirmed kills.

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Lil ski
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#43

Posted 12 April 2014 - 04:24 AM

Unless you're doing it for some sort of personal gain, no it shouldn't be illegal. Otherwise, we would have to imprison everyone who has ever posted that copypasta about having over 300 confirmed kills.


Well yeh that's what it's pretty much goes down to; personal gain. Obviously it's not applying to those who are like joking around in a story online or an actor playing a role or something. But mostly those who go up to the VA or on TV claiming they're an ex SF sergeant major who served in Vietnam but he really didn't do sh*t. Or a faker who is parading around in a uniform and wearing outrageous skill badges and tabs and telling everyone who was this and that and trying to suck up the glory and probably a paid meal from a generous thankful civilian or any other perks and benefits for being in the military.

D4 Damager
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#44

Posted 12 April 2014 - 04:41 AM

Sure.. since you want to be one, why not?

OK I just thought I'd point out that there is a huge difference between 'wanting to be' and 'pretending to be' which you appear not to have grasped.
 
As a small example: Me pretending to like you is at the opposite end of the spectrum to wanting to like you. They both suggest that I don't like you but they have completely different connotations and shades of meaning. Just like pretending to be a soldier and wanting to be a soldier.
 
Not to mention that your proposal is, quite frankly, insane. In your demented world I would almost be rewarded for pretending to be somebody who I wasn't, so right away I'd pretend to be a millionaire investment banker -- and then I'd pretend to have a supermodel wife.


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#45

Posted 12 April 2014 - 05:51 AM

Honestly I think it should only be punishable in some cases, if you are going around telling people casually that you are in the military for no explicit reason I think that's 'fine' I say 'fine' because its not really fine at all its just weird and creepy, I don't think it should be a punishable offence though.

 

If you are lying about military service to claim some kind of benefit especially a monetary one then I think this should be punishable, not because its specifically about the military but because it's just straight up fraud like lying about your income or many other methods of fraud.

 

Although lying about military its especially creepy, damn right strange and morally wrong I think people get way too caught up in it and treat it like its some kind of capital offence! Especially in more militarily proud countries like America and parts of Europe. I think it should be treated like any other kind of lying, if you tell someone you meet in a bar that you earn a million dollar salary yes its wrong of course it is, its straight up lying, however it shouldn't be treated the same as for example lying about your income to avoid income tax.

 

I don't get why many people have to be so black and white about these subjects as if there has to be one for all rules and that different things can't apply to different situations.


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#46

Posted 12 April 2014 - 06:09 AM

 

Sure.. since you want to be one, why not?

OK I just thought I'd point out that there is a huge difference between 'wanting to be' and 'pretending to be' which you appear not to have grasped.
 
As a small example: Me pretending to like you is at the opposite end of the spectrum to wanting to like you. They both suggest that I don't like you but they have completely different connotations and shades of meaning. Just like pretending to be a soldier and wanting to be a soldier.
 
Not to mention that your proposal is, quite frankly, insane. In your demented world I would almost be rewarded for pretending to be somebody who I wasn't, so right away I'd pretend to be a millionaire investment banker -- and then I'd pretend to have a supermodel wife.

 

If you pretend to be something or someone, doesn't that mean in some sense that you WANT that? Grasped or not, I don't really give a sh*t. If you reply to me with a smartass remark, I'll answer with one.

 

I was sharing an opinion of mine alone that if you lie that you're a member of whatever branch and done so and so, that they should be given enlistment rather than jail time. While in jail, you're learning nothing, you're only wasting time until your release. So my opinion of those that lie about such grand statements of military service should be given exactly that. You all act as if it's something new. Did you know that in the past, convicts were offered military service over actual prison time. Some of them turned out to be great soldiers, etc (convicts) while others were not so much.

 

You claim you were in so and so and done so and so and been so and so, why not give them the chance to atleast fill the shoes of those they pretend to be?

 

So I say unto you, if you lie about being a teacher, then become one if you wish or ordered. Then you'll see eye to eye from which you're lying about. There's no grand harm in a statement as such, perhaps some think of it as too much or idiotic but I'm an eye for an eye type of guy. Who gives a sh*t.. don't stomp by balls over it. Just stfu and reply with something on topic rather than expressing your disliking to a post. Capisce?


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#47

Posted 12 April 2014 - 08:32 AM

Should lying about being in the military land you in prison? I saw a news story about a guy who claimed to be the one who killed Osama when it turns out he never searved a day in the military but he has spent time in prison. So this brings the question do you think lying and profiting from lying to people about military experience land you in prison?

But he was not in prison because he was impersonating an army personnel...

 

Still, it is wrong to claim to be a veteran of war if you are not. Or an officer. Veterans deserve our respect, and so do dedicated army officers. Pretending to be one should land you in jail, where your hainey would be pounded by big black inmates.


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#48

Posted 13 April 2014 - 11:07 PM

Rape by deception is a crime in a number of jurisdictions, but it's incredibly difficult to enforce, so it often isn't. It is within the realm of possibility that, were you to lie to someone about your religion, career or marital status, they would have you prosecuted. If you were literally pretending to be someone else- for instance, someone they met online- and they can prove it, you'd be convicted for rape.

 

As for my personal views on the matter, I'd say it's definitely rape. You can't consent to something you are being lied to about.

So if I tell a girl that I'm a musician, rather than I'm a bum who pretty much does nothing, I'm a rapist?

 

Well sh*t I better bust out my secret identity and weapon stash earlier than planned.


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#49

Posted 13 April 2014 - 11:18 PM Edited by Vlynor, 13 April 2014 - 11:18 PM.

Rape by deception is a crime in a number of jurisdictions, but it's incredibly difficult to enforce, so it often isn't. It is within the realm of possibility that, were you to lie to someone about your religion, career or marital status, they would have you prosecuted. If you were literally pretending to be someone else- for instance, someone they met online- and they can prove it, you'd be convicted for rape.

 

As for my personal views on the matter, I'd say it's definitely rape. You can't consent to something you are being lied to about.

 

What If I told someone I'm an engineer, when I really just build bird houses? Or if I tell them I make $40,000 a year instead of $38,000. If I was impersonating John Smith, sure. But is telling someone a lie about your life really considered rape? At what point would it turn from a harmless lie to you being classified as a rapist?


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#50

Posted 14 April 2014 - 12:59 AM

 

Rape by deception is a crime in a number of jurisdictions, but it's incredibly difficult to enforce, so it often isn't. It is within the realm of possibility that, were you to lie to someone about your religion, career or marital status, they would have you prosecuted. If you were literally pretending to be someone else- for instance, someone they met online- and they can prove it, you'd be convicted for rape.

 

As for my personal views on the matter, I'd say it's definitely rape. You can't consent to something you are being lied to about.

 

What If I told someone I'm an engineer, when I really just build bird houses? Or if I tell them I make $40,000 a year instead of $38,000. If I was impersonating John Smith, sure. But is telling someone a lie about your life really considered rape? At what point would it turn from a harmless lie to you being classified as a rapist?

 

When they're having sex with you under false pretences. For instance, lying about your religion or marital status. So, a girl says she can only marry a Jew, you have lots of sex with her before telling her the truth and leaving- there was a high profile case of someone being convicted of this exact thing in Israel. Or you tell her you aren't married and are looking for a relationship when neither of those things are true. 

 

The line between exaggeration and rape by deception is hard to draw, that's why it isn't enforced, even in jurisdictions where it's illegal de jure.  


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#51

Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:06 AM Edited by D4 Damager, 14 April 2014 - 01:44 AM.

1. If you pretend to be something or someone, doesn't that mean in some sense that you WANT that? Grasped or not, I don't really give a sh*t. If you reply to me with a smartass remark, I'll answer with one.

 

2. I was sharing an opinion of mine alone that if you lie that you're a member of whatever branch and done so and so, that they should be given enlistment rather than jail time. While in jail, you're learning nothing, you're only wasting time until your release. So my opinion of those that lie about such grand statements of military service should be given exactly that. You all act as if it's something new. Did you know that in the past, convicts were offered military service over actual prison time. Some of them turned out to be great soldiers, etc (convicts) while others were not so much.

 

3. You claim you were in so and so and done so and so and been so and so, why not give them the chance to atleast fill the shoes of those they pretend to be?

 

4. So I say unto you, if you lie about being a teacher, then become one if you wish or ordered. Then you'll see eye to eye from which you're lying about. There's no grand harm in a statement as such, perhaps some think of it as too much or idiotic but I'm an eye for an eye type of guy. Who gives a sh*t.. don't stomp by balls over it. Just stfu and reply with something on topic rather than expressing your disliking to a post. Capisce?

 

OK I've numbered your paragraphs so it's clear what part of your post I'm responding to as I can't get the hang of this quoting the same person multiple times lark.

 

1. Not at all. I once dressed up as Bob Marley to go to a fancy dress party but that doesn't mean I wanted to actually be him. The only thing that it signified is that I had a dreadlock hat and some baggy clothes in my wardrobe and thought that it would be fun. Of course, some people really do pretend to be things precisely because they want to be those things but generally pretending to be someone doesn't mean that you aspire to be them. 

 

2. Yeah I did know about people being sentenced to enlistment in lieu of jail, but they all committed crimes and that was only in a time of war where if they'd've stayed out of jail they'd've probably been conscripted anyway sooner or later. And of course most of the units of the US Armed Forces actively bar people who are being told to enlist by a judge from enlisting.

 

Of course, in peacetime conscripting people who have lied about being soldiers would just mean that you're paying these people from Federal budgets to do nothing in particular, and (probably) rewarding them for pretending to be a soldier in the first place (I say probably here because the likelihood is that most people who impersonate soldiers for personal gain do not draw a higher income than the soldier that they are impersonating.

 

3. Because that just isn't how any sane person's world would work. In order to become a doctor you have to qualify as a doctor -- likewise for teachers and soldiers. So just tossing those who pretend to work in those jobs in at the deep end would just be punishing everyone else for that one person's folly. Even if you were to just put those people into training for those jobs it would be a logistical nightmare (and a budgetary one in public funded occupations like the army) because those people probably lack the qualifications or the mindset to do those jobs effectively.

 

4. An eye for an eye is concerned almost exclusively with physical harm. It dictates that you should be punished in the same manner/to the same degree that you committed your crime, or it may refer to old systems like the Weregild where each criminal action was met by a certain financial penalty. Your proposal is not in keeping with that at all because in many cases it actually rewards people for their lies whilst punishing others. You're conflating an eye for an eye with putting yourself in someone else's shoes and coming up with something that flies in the face of all logic.

 

My posts are on topic. You were responding to the topic title when you said that instead of jail people should be enlisted for pretending to be soldiers, since then I have replied and so have you. I am now replying again and not once have we deviated from the topic at hand -- which concerns how people who impersonate soldiers should be punished.

 

Also Jesus man learn to take some criticism. You post an idea on a public forum and are this hurt when somebody deigns to point out its flaws? I'll admit I was curt with you in my first post but that was because I thought you were trolling Melchior. Now that it's become apparent that you were actually serious I'm filled with a strange sense of pity.

 

---

 

And regarding these posts:

 

 

So if I tell a girl that I'm a musician, rather than I'm a bum who pretty much does nothing, I'm a rapist?

 

Well sh*t I better bust out my secret identity and weapon stash earlier than planned.

 

 

What If I told someone I'm an engineer, when I really just build bird houses? Or if I tell them I make $40,000 a year instead of $38,000. If I was impersonating John Smith, sure. But is telling someone a lie about your life really considered rape? At what point would it turn from a harmless lie to you being classified as a rapist?

 

Neither of those cases are rape.

 

Melchior may have misled you to an extent because in the UK (and, I believe, in most American states) there is no crime of rape by deception, but deception can cause consent to be invalid and make the sex that you obtained rape. However the only things that count as deception or fraud in these circumstances are deceptions related to your identity or as to the nature of the sexual act between you. So it's illegal to pretend to be someone's husband or to pretend that the sex is something else (ie: a method of injecting an anti-aging cream) but all other deceptions are not covered, you could even pretend to be somebody's boyfriend and get off on a technicality (People vs Morales).

 

As an aside, there are some quite bizarre cases covered under this law so I'll just share some links.

 

R v Williams [1923]

Papadimitropoulos vs R [1957]

R vs Tabassum [2000]

 

There used to be a lesser crime in the UK called 'Procurement of a Woman by False Pretences' which governed what I can only presume to be smaller lies; however that was written out of law in the 2003 revision to the Sexual Offences Act (I can't find any record of anyone being charged with only this crime anyway).

 

And even if that law were still around neither of you would be convicted because charges would never be brought in such cases (it's difficult enough to get enough evidence to secure convictions in normal rape cases) and even if they were the prosecution would be hard-pressed to convince the jury that your lies were the only factor that caused them to have sex with you. In fact, I'm convinced that the reason this law was written out of statute is because it was only applicable in a very narrow set of circumstances (such as saying that you were going to pay someone for sex and then not paying them, or you pretending to be of a certain religious persuasion to have sex with someone who would never have sex with you otherwise) and was basically an unknown even amongst high-powered prosecutors.

 

TL;DR: Yeah you can say whatever you want, and be who you want too to an extent, just make sure that you get someone's consent before sex (consent to actual sex and not to something else like a gynecological exam)...

 

EDIT: Tightened up the formatting a bit.

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#52

Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:13 AM

It's a crime in quite few US states, I believe. Mainly Southern and Midwestern states for some reason.


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#53

Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:36 AM Edited by D4 Damager, 14 April 2014 - 01:42 AM.

It's a crime in quite few US states, I believe. Mainly Southern and Midwestern states for some reason.

Fair point well made, however I still think the majority have no such laws, with most such cases except for an incredibly limited number coming under the scope of normal rape laws. I can find definite records of laws of that nature in Massachusetts, California, Tennessee, Alabama and Michigan but I think that with the exception of the Massachusetts law they're more a remnant of a bygone age where men apparently used to pretend that they were a girl's husband in order to get into her skirt or corset or whatever.

 

But yeah your post inspired me to further edit my original post.

 

Also regarding your post on the Jewish bachelor rape case: This is an interesting link. Not all was as it seemed in that case.


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#54

Posted 14 April 2014 - 01:46 AM

Coming from a military family (I'm the only male who isn't going into the army after graduating in my family) there's obviously some sort of honor in being in the service. My grandad was in WW2, my uncle was in Vietnam, my dad completed his paratrooper training for the 82nd airborne and was stationed in Panama during the late 1970s when we expected another Vietnam war, and my brother joined the Marines. I considered enlisting to be a paratrooper, but the idea of not going into the 82nd like my dad was is kinda a bummer since I wanted to be just like him to a T. Also, the idea of being shot at by Koreans or Russians or whoever we're fighting next year is a major turn off.

 

But yeah, back to my point above, there's obviously some deal of respect we gotta have for people who enlist to join the army. They sign up to fight and sometimes give their lives so we can fly the flag in our backyard and have Forth of July picnics without being blown up by communist bombs. I probably sound like a die-hard patriot now, which I usually don't, seeing as I'm pretty much anti-war. But yeah, we gotta respect our troops overseas and our veterans. What those people are doing are looking for fame and respect in something they didnt - they couldn't do. I don't think they should be jailed. Rather they should be ashamed of themselves.


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#55

Posted 14 April 2014 - 09:00 AM

I think lying about military service for the sake of creating a more positive image of yourself shouldn't be illegal even though it is despicable and cowardly. Lying isn't a crime unless it's under very specific circumstances, examples being perjury or for the obstruction of justice.

 

I would be more worried about a person lying about being a police officer because that carries more authority. Military service members command respect, but not authority. Your everyday service member cannot detain you or question you, but a police officer can even out of uniform (so long as they have their badge on them).

 

This gets into the realm of impersonation, which is and should be a crime. Impersonating a police officer is a serious crime, but so too is impersonating a service member and people have been arrested for it. However, the impersonation needs to be more serious than just saying "I am X." Anyone can say they are anything and it doesn't amount to much. But if you wear the uniform or take actions that only a service member/police officer are allowed to take, then that is impersonation and a desecration of the service you are imitating.

 

So should people be criminally charged for saying, "I'm a soldier?" No, just in the same way they should not be charged for saying "I'm a pilot" if they're not a pilot. As long as they don't actually try to fly a plane, they're just being liars, and everyone is a liar.


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#56

Posted 14 April 2014 - 10:08 PM

It's one thing to joke around with someone, wear a soldier's costume for Halloween (worn out of regs and nowhere near the real uniform.) or an actor playing as a soldier in a movie. This isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the guys who are serious as sh*t and flat out impersonating a service member or falsifying their service; not only just parading around in uniform in military functions with outrageous medals looking like goddamned Noreaga and telling fake war stories. But f*cking going to the VA office and reaping benefits that they didn't earn and falsifying a DD-214 (military service record.) to get some disabilities. Hell or even scamming a thankful civilian who might offer to pay his meal at Applebee's.

These jack f*cks here deserve to get an ass beating by every real vet they come across:

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(^Lol this is the guy who I mentioned in my previous post who's picture was front page of the Army Times.)



They should go to jail for fraud by reaping benefits from the VA and impersonating a service member. (Yes in response to a previous post; you go to jail the same way for impersonating a police officer as well.)
If not jail, then they will automatically serve in the armed forces with no choice in MOS. No, your ass is gonna get signed up as a 11Bang-Bang (infantryman) or 19D (CAV scout) and get front loaded to nearest deploying unit who is getting sent down to Kunar on the most sh*ttiest COP (outpost) in Afghanistan. Put your money where your mouth is.
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gtamann123
  • gtamann123

    Bang Bang, Skeet Skeet

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#57

Posted 14 April 2014 - 10:32 PM

I agree with someone who impersonates a serviceman having to pay a hefty fine that goes to benefit actual servicemen. 





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