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General North Korea discussion

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theadmiral
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#1

Posted 15 December 2013 - 05:34 PM

I'm sure all of you that follow the news are aware of the purge / execution of Kim Jong-Un's uncle and his closest inner circle that occurred recently, including the footage of the guy being seized in public during a party meeting and hauled out to his untimely demise.

 

I was watching a bunch of documentary films, tourist travel videos, and various propaganda films on youtube the other night and found a lot of the material absolutely fascinating.

 

These people seem absolutely normal up to a certain point, then they go off on some absolutely mad rant that seems entirely pre-rehearsed. When asked questions, they do not know the answers and just change the subject.

 

Do you think:

 

The average North Korean is brainwashed, or just speaks this way out of fear?

 

That Kim Jong-Un will last his lifetime as the leader of North Korea?

 

That any meaningful change will happen there during our lifetime?

 

That we will see a unified Korea, ever?

 

That the international community will do something about genocide and concentration camps that are increasingly reaching the levels of Nazi Germany?

 

Why do you think the international community is so compelled to intervene in places where the human rights abuses seem to be on a much smaller scale than what goes on here?

 

Why are high level party officials that have been part of the establishment for decades suddenly being purged? Is anything big going on, or is this just business as usual?

 

One of the most compelling films I saw was one about a Nepalese eye surgeon who goes over there and does 1000 cataract surgeries to help the blind see. Every single person who had their sight restored, instead of thanking the doctor, went to portraits of Kim-Il Sung and Kim Jong-Il and praised them, proceeding to state that they will work even harder now, and take up arms and wipe all enemies of the state from the planet - To raucous applause from everyone else in the room.


Mr. House
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#2

Posted 15 December 2013 - 05:44 PM Edited by Nale Dixon, 15 December 2013 - 05:46 PM.

The average North Korean is brainwashed, or just speaks this way out of fear?

The latter.

 

That Kim Jong-Un will last his lifetime as the leader of North Korea?

Probably.

 

 

That any meaningful change will happen there during our lifetime?

I don't know

 

That the international community will do something about genocide and concentration camps that are increasingly reaching the levels of Nazi Germany?

Well it's not close to Nazi Germany, but there are obviously f*cked up things happening. It's the wrong question though because;

Why do you think the international community is so compelled to intervene in places where the human rights abuses seem to be on a much smaller scale than what goes on here?

'The international community' doesn't really give a sh*t about stopping genocide or anything like that, but regardless there are places where much worse atrocities happen every day and they are not discussed nearly as much as North Korea. North Korea is quite frankly much more hyped up in terms of danger to 'freedom' and crimes against humanity than most other dictatorial countries are and it's because North Korea refuses to play ball and stay in line with Western Policy.

 

If western countries intervene in any other country it's because they have a vested interest in doing so and are able to without public pressure causing the government to meltdown.

Why are high level party officials that have been part of the establishment for decades suddenly being purged? Is anything big going on, or is this just business as usual?

No idea, I don't exactly know or care too much about the inner workings of the North Korean government, but it could be anything from suppressing an attempted coup to those members calling Kim Jong Un chubby when he was a kid.

 

One of the most compelling films I saw was one about a Nepalese eye surgeon who goes over there and does 1000 cataract surgeries to help the blind see. Every single person who had their sight restored, instead of thanking the doctor, went to portraits of Kim-Il Sung and Kim Jong-Il and praised them, proceeding to state that they will work even harder now, and take up arms and wipe all enemies of the state from the planet - To raucous applause from everyone else in the room.

If it was on camera then it was either state sanctioned and therefore the people were forced to do that, or is outright fake.


D4 Damager
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#3

Posted 17 December 2013 - 03:02 AM Edited by D4 Damager, 17 December 2013 - 03:05 AM.

1. The average North Korean is brainwashed, or just speaks this way out of fear?

 

2. That Kim Jong-Un will last his lifetime as the leader of North Korea?

 

3. That any meaningful change will happen there during our lifetime?

 

4. That we will see a unified Korea, ever?

 

5. That the international community will do something about genocide and concentration camps that are increasingly reaching the levels of Nazi Germany?

 

6. Why do you think the international community is so compelled to intervene in places where the human rights abuses seem to be on a much smaller scale than what goes on here?

 

7. Why are high level party officials that have been part of the establishment for decades suddenly being purged? Is anything big going on, or is this just business as usual?

 

One of the most compelling films I saw was one about a Nepalese eye surgeon who goes over there and does 1000 cataract surgeries to help the blind see. Every single person who had their sight restored, instead of thanking the doctor, went to portraits of Kim-Il Sung and Kim Jong-Il and praised them, proceeding to state that they will work even harder now, and take up arms and wipe all enemies of the state from the planet - To raucous applause from everyone else in the room.

I'm not really used to the new bbcode formats so I've just numbered your questions.

 

1. With every leader who fosters a cult of personality as strong as Kim Il-Sung did there are always some people who truly do believe everything that they say. Kim Jong-Un is the continuation of that legacy. However the vast majority of citizens -- even members of the armed forces and camp guards -- are just saying paying lip service to these beliefs to avoid punishment. If you were to go to North Korea, with a camera or not, you would not be able to get the truth out of any person there due partially to suspicion of foreigners but mainly due to the fear of ending up in a concentration camp.

 

2. It would take a huge effort for anybody to oust him from within due to the continued purges that Jong-Un is not stopping and may even be scaling up. And the West cannot interfere due to fears of a missile attack on Seoul which is a little too close to the border for comfort, since the two countries are still in a state of de jure war.

 

3. Without meaning to be flippant, that very much depends on how long we live. It is possible that after Jong-Un a more progressive, western-educated and moderate leader will relax things slightly. But it is never in the interests of despots to relinquish power, and despotic regimes tend to breed more despotic regimes to take their place. A look at most of post-colonial Africa will bear this out -- so any change of regime may not bring about an increase in the quality of life of the general population. Even in Britain we didn't get things right in our first revolution and needed a second to install what would eventually morph into our current political system. So I guess my answer is that some change is inevitable, but whether or not it will be meaningful is next to impossible to say because it depends on a myriad of factors.

 

4. Korea will eventually be unified. It is not natural for a people of exactly the same heritage to be spread between two adjoining countries with such a disparity in living conditions. I believe that it is in the nature of the world to eventually see that (broadly speaking, and notwithstanding flukes and aberrations like slavery) all people of a certain ethnic group will have their own homeland, as has been the case in Europe since the breakup of Yugoslavia. Therefore the unification of Korea is inevitable. Whether or not it will be peaceful or soon is impossible to say -- but a regime cannot function based on extractive principles for an indefinite length of time.

 

5. The only thing the international community can do is sanction the Kim family and the state. There can be no talk of a military intervention -- it would place a major economic centre at reasonable risk of attack. Someone with a background in military logistics, like sivispacem, would probably be able to go into more detail here.

 

And it's important to note that North Korea's concentration camps aren't nearly as problematic as NAZI ones. As callous as this probably sounds, they only contain, for the most part, North Korean citizens.

 

6. Well, the West is not compelled to intervene anywhere -- look at the Central African Republic, or to go back in time somewhat, the actions of the Soviets during the Hungarian Uprising. A few factors that probably make an intervention in North Korea much less likely are the fact that the people are so under the thumb of Un that there is no possibility of a popular uprising à la Syria which would make it viable to secure a UN resolution necessary for military action. And then there is the threat to Seoul which has already been discussed.

 

There is also the issue of Russia and China. North Korea is an artificial state created in the aftermath of the Second World War after the partition of former axis territories -- just as Germany and Austria were partitioned. The principles by which the Kim family governs are/were largely Stalinist in their inspiration due to it falling under Soviet influence, while the South was under Western influence.

 

Then during the Korean War, while the Soviets refused to send ground troops, China did. About 180,000 Chinese troops died during the course of the war. Now I'm not saying that China and Russia are still backing North Korea because that is definitely not the case as relations have frozen a bit. This is mainly due to China and Russia believing that the Kim family are overly aggressive in their foreign policy. But Russia maintain a lot of economic presence in the DPR due to the DPR having a sizable debt to them, and China also has economic interests there. Both of these countries have a permanent seat in the security council of the UN and therefore have veto power over new resolutions. They've both voted together to prevent resolutions being passed on Syria and a failure to get them both to at least abstain would mean that any decision to act taken by the USA, the UK or anyone else would contravene international law.

 

Finally, there is the fact the the DPR has never gravely wronged any country other than the South militarily. Libya, on the other hand, was very much a sponsor of world terrorism and has, as a state, been behind murders on Western soil. I may be wrong but North Korea has not been involved in such incidents and therefore the isolated nature of the country makes it much easier for them to just be allowed to get on with things -- rightly or wrongly.

 

7. Something big may be going on, but as I've said earlier in this post the Kim family took quite a lot of its philosophy from Stalin and his domestic policies in the USSR. Both Stalin and Mao -- the two leaders who had the greatest influence on the growth of the North Korean state -- regularly engaged in purges of high-ranking members of the military and of high ranking politicians who could rival them for power (this is mirrored in the Korean purges of the late 1950's). Since his uncle was apparently the person who was in charge of the country when his father was gravely ill and was also one of the most powerful man in Korea as a vice chairman of the National Defence Commission along with a couple of other men it is possible that younger Kim was threaten by his political gravitas and as such had him purged. Likewise it is also possible that he is slowly removing all links to his father's regime in order to have his own appointees in critical positions.

 

Or it could be possible that there was evidence that his uncle really was trying to seize power...

 

And regarding the documentary, I saw the same one a year or so ago, I think on National Geographic. Unless the cameras are secret ones there is no way you can be sure that the reactions aren't scripted as Nale Dixon suggests. And even if they were secret cameras North Korean people are told from a very young age that foreigners are evil imperialists and are incredibly suspicious of us and likely to lie, especially with a gun pointed in their direction.

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El_Diablo
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#4

Posted 04 February 2014 - 06:08 AM Edited by El_Diablo, 04 February 2014 - 06:09 AM.

I'm glad you've discovered North Korea.

welcome to the club (not being sarcastic).

 

it's one of the most incredible places on Earth and is near the top of my bucket list for places to visit.

the countryside mountains and coastal beaches of NK are also absolutely beautiful. it's such a shame that the people unfortunate enough to be born there cannot enjoy it. it deserves more fascination and study than it receives. I know that most of the world tries to ignore NK as much as possible because they simply want to refrain from agitation. and who can blame them?

 

but this is the wrong approach.

we should be spotlighting the sh*t out of nations/governments like this one. the only reason they've been allowed to oppress their people for as long as they have been is due to their extreme isolationism. Dennis Rodman might be an absolutely ridiculous human being but we NEED him (anyone) to do what he's doing. the more exposure that the infamous Hermit Regime has, the more difficult it will be for them to maintain their brutal grip over the populace.

 

as for your query, I'd rather not start this topic on a massive multi-quote, so I'll just lump it all together and begin addressing in relative order.

Do you think:

 

The average North Korean is brainwashed, or just speaks this way out of fear?

That Kim Jong-Un will last his lifetime as the leader of North Korea?

That any meaningful change will happen there during our lifetime?

That we will see a unified Korea, ever?

That the international community will do something about genocide and concentration camps that are increasingly reaching the levels of Nazi Germany?

Why do you think the international community is so compelled to intervene in places where the human rights abuses seem to be on a much smaller scale than what goes on here?

Why are high level party officials that have been part of the establishment for decades suddenly being purged? Is anything big going on, or is this just business as usual?

 

One of the most compelling films I saw was one about a Nepalese eye surgeon who goes over there and does 1000 cataract surgeries to help the blind see. Every single person who had their sight restored, instead of thanking the doctor, went to portraits of Kim-Il Sung and Kim Jong-Il and praised them, proceeding to state that they will work even harder now, and take up arms and wipe all enemies of the state from the planet - To raucous applause from everyone else in the room.

the average citizen (especially those who live outside of the capital Pyongyang) speaks to the media the way they do out of a combination of fear and rehearsal.

they clearly know what they can and cannot say when speaking to outsiders, and I'm sure a lot of them genuinely understand and want to avoid reprisal for breaking the rules of communication. classical brainwashing on children is part of the everyday social rehearsal that North Koreans endure and of course it is imbedded deeply in their educational system at all levels. it's not like you suddenly have access to Western media just because you're attending university. everything that comes into the country is heavily regulated as are all outgoing communications.

 

it's really hard to say how long Kim Jong-Un will last.

right now he's doing what he needs to do in order to show that he's in control internally (threats, shows of force, shaking up the party, whacking his uncle, etc). one of your questions was about whether or not this is just business as usual; and it is. Kim's father behaved very similarly when he first took power. it also constitutes a general pattern amongst totalitarian dictatorships. when power changes hands, the new guy usually does his best to appear the tyrant for obvious reasons. pressure always seems to come more from outside of NK than from within. the regime itself (leading party officials, generals) shows very few obvious cracks in its armor. it might be the most tightly knit centralized government on the planet. but if there was ever a time for cracks to begin to form, it would be now and the foreseeable future. Kim Jong-Un is going to have to endure something that his father and grandfather never had to worry about; the awesome power of the internet.

 

now really is the time, more than ever before, to actually be hopeful that 'meaningful change' is possible. or at the very least within sight.

if the regime does finally lose its iron grip on the North, I would still be surprised to see Korea unify anytime soon. there would have to be some kind of overwhelming cultural movement in which people from both North and South make it evident that they want unification. I cannot see a post-DKRP government so readily jumping in bed with Seoul.

 

unfortunately the International Community didn't give a sh*t about Rwanda or Darfur or the Congo, so it probably won't act very enthusiastic about NK.

and to date, it hasn't. I don't trust NATO or the UN to do what's right, only what's profitable (that should answer 2 of those questions...).

 

the anecdote about the people who received cataract surgery and then thanked their Dear Leader instead of the doctors?

you might also call that business as usual. part of the brainwashing as you may have guessed, but also very to-the-point. often times when North Korea seeks aid from other world governments, it doesn't tell its people that this is aid. their people are told that these other governments have so much respect for NK and completely revere Kim Jong-Un. their people are literally made to believe that this aid is actually gifts from the world community. they sometimes think that the only reasons these doctors or surgeons are here helping us is because they are paying tribute to the Dear Leader.

 

it's quite the mind-f*ck.

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Irviding
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#5

Posted 07 February 2014 - 06:57 AM

 
 
 
 
1. With every leader who fosters a cult of personality as strong as Kim Il-Sung did there are always some people who truly do believe everything that they say. Kim Jong-Un is the continuation of that legacy. However the vast majority of citizens -- even members of the armed forces and camp guards -- are just saying paying lip service to these beliefs to avoid punishment. If you were to go to North Korea, with a camera or not, you would not be able to get the truth out of any person there due partially to suspicion of foreigners but mainly due to the fear of ending up in a concentration camp.[/background]

I just don't buy that. I very much doubt the majority of people are just paying lip service. That sounds like something we see with Chinese citizens, not North Korean citizens. These people have no connection to the outside world, their televisions are entirely state provided/controlled, radios, etc. And frankly the notion that people in the armed forces are paying lip service is ludicrous... you're definitely right that the top officers in the military are not brainwashed by any means and pay lip service, but these North Koreans 18-30ish who enlist and make up the majority of the military... I really would highly doubt they are just "paying lip service". [/background]
 
 
 


2. It would take a huge effort for anybody to oust him from within due to the continued purges that Jong-Un is not stopping and may even be scaling up. And the West cannot interfere due to fears of a missile attack on Seoul which is a little too close to the border for comfort, since the two countries are still in a state of de jure war.[/background]
 
Both countries would suffer extremely harsh consequences if there were a war, but any military expert will tell you that once a combined (probable) ROK, US, NATO states, and Japanese military machine crosses the DMZ, North Korea will be finished. [/background]
[/quote]
3. Without meaning to be flippant, that very much depends on how long we live. It is possible that after Jong-Un a more progressive, western-educated and moderate leader will relax things slightly. But it is never in the interests of despots to relinquish power, and despotic regimes tend to breed more despotic regimes to take their place. A look at most of post-colonial Africa will bear this out -- so any change of regime may not bring about an increase in the quality of life of the general population. Even in Britain we didn't get things right in our first revolution and needed a second to install what would eventually morph into our current political system. So I guess my answer is that some change is inevitable, but whether or not it will be meaningful is next to impossible to say because it depends on a myriad of factors.[/background]
[/quote][/background]
Agreed... I have to say I doubt we will see a progressive western educated leader rise up on his own in North Korea.
 
 
 


 
 
[background=#f7f7f7]5. The only thing the international community can do is sanction the Kim family and the state. There can be no talk of a military intervention -- it would place a major economic centre at reasonable risk of attack. Someone with a background in military logistics, like sivispacem, would probably be able to go into more detail here[
 
[background=#f7f7f7]And it's important to note that North Korea's concentration camps aren't nearly as problematic as NAZI ones. As callous as this probably sounds, they only contain, for the most part, North Korean citizens.
 
[background=#f7f7f7]Logistically speaking, a war with North Korea would of course have negative effects on the global economy, but honestly, there CAN be talk of a military intervention if it is warranted. One would be costly but it would result in ROK/US/allied forces winning relatively swiftly... nothing like 03 Iraq but it wouldn't be some 5 year drawn out war. The Chinese don't want to deal with the North Koreans and if they were offered a fair settlement to just stay out from the US/ROK, they'd be fine with it. In my opinion an annexation by China of areas of North Korea is not unforeseeable. 
 
[background=#f7f7f7]I don't know about that. We really have very little (public) details on North Korean concentration camps, but the notion that it isn't problematic because they only contain North Koreans is sort of... ridiculous. The people in German concentration camps were for the most part subjects of the Third Reich... Poland, parts of the Soviet Union, etc. were all subjected. And even if they weren't I don't see how that would lower the negatives of the concentration camps. 
 

 



6. Well, the West is not compelled to intervene anywhere -- look at the Central African Republic, or to go back in time somewhat, the actions of the Soviets during the Hungarian Uprising. A few factors that probably make an intervention in North Korea much less likely are the fact that the people are so under the thumb of Un that there is no possibility of a popular uprising à la Syria which would make it viable to secure a UN resolution necessary for military action. And then there is the threat to Seoul which has already been discussed.
 

I have absolutely no idea what the f*ck happened to my post up there, but if you highlight you can see what I wrote lol.

helloworld
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#6

Posted 18 February 2014 - 08:48 PM Edited by helloworld, 18 February 2014 - 08:56 PM.

Would China really side with North Korea if the US/South Korea attacked them. I've heard the Chinese government is getting tired of NK's antics. And wouldn't it be bad for both the US and the Chinese economy if they fought each other in a war?

 

North Korea human rights abuses resemble those of the Nazis, says UN inquiry

http://www.theguardi...-united-nations

 

North Korea: Accounts from Camp Survivors

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=cZby_vxrJ0Q

 

That's some sick sh*t


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#7

Posted 19 February 2014 - 08:59 PM


Would China really side with North Korea if the US/South Korea attacked them. I've heard the Chinese government is getting tired of NK's antics. And wouldn't it be bad for both the US and the Chinese economy if they fought each other in a war?

No... very doubtful as long as the US is able to offer some concession to China regarding North Korean border post bellum. 


Melchior
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#8

Posted 23 February 2014 - 01:08 PM

classical brainwashing on children is part of the everyday social rehearsal that North Koreans endure and of course it is imbedded deeply in their educational system at all levels. it's not like you suddenly have access to Western media just because you're attending university. everything that comes into the country is heavily regulated as are all outgoing communications.

I'm not sure this is entirely accurate. They have manga, at the very least.


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#9

Posted 23 February 2014 - 09:01 PM

 

classical brainwashing on children is part of the everyday social rehearsal that North Koreans endure and of course it is imbedded deeply in their educational system at all levels. it's not like you suddenly have access to Western media just because you're attending university. everything that comes into the country is heavily regulated as are all outgoing communications.

I'm not sure this is entirely accurate. They have manga, at the very least.

 

 

I don't see how that renders anything in that paragraph inaccurate. 

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Melchior
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#10

Posted 24 February 2014 - 06:40 AM

Fact is that young people in North Korea do have access to Western media, as long as you consider Japan and South Korea to be Western.


sivispacem
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#11

Posted 24 February 2014 - 08:26 AM

Only in a clandestine sense. The regime have a propensity towards executing anyone found in possession of either.

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#12

Posted 24 February 2014 - 08:36 AM

Only in a clandestine sense. The regime have a propensity towards executing anyone found in possession of either.

And those around them, too. So if 15 year old sonny boy goes on the computer and watches some hentai, mom and pop are going away along with the brothers and sisters... not sure if they go after grandparents and extended family too but I am sure they at least would end more closely monitored.


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#13

Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:05 AM

Fact is that young people in North Korea do have access to Western media, as long as you consider Japan and South Korea to be Western.

 

That's not Western media (Manga) since it's a Japanese art-form. Japan and South Korea are western-ized, but the actual media is Eastern. 


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Posted 25 February 2014 - 02:32 AM

 

Fact is that young people in North Korea do have access to Western media, as long as you consider Japan and South Korea to be Western.

 

That's not Western media (Manga) since it's a Japanese art-form. Japan and South Korea are western-ized, but the actual media is Eastern. 

 

Animation and comic books are one hundred percent Western. Also if a Western country situated in the East created an art from, by what measure is the art form "Eastern"?

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El_Diablo
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#15

Posted 25 February 2014 - 05:29 AM

wow.

guys I'm sorry but we're not discussing the thematic classification of manga comics.

 

the fact is that North Korea censors the vast majority of incoming and outgoing media and communications.

the average North Korean citizen does not have general access to Western literature, news media, or other information outlets like we all enjoy.

 

just because you might find some manga there doesn't refute what I've just said.

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Posted 25 February 2014 - 05:55 AM

I wasn't disputing that, I was disputing the idea that going to university (or just being a young person) has no bearing on whether or not you'll have access to Western media.


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#17

Posted 13 May 2014 - 10:01 PM

Hi Irviding. I've finally got round to taking a proper look at your post through the formatting problems.
 

I just don't buy that. I very much doubt the majority of people are just paying lip service. That sounds like something we see with Chinese citizens, not North Korean citizens. These people have no connection to the outside world, their televisions are entirely state provided/controlled, radios, etc. And frankly the notion that people in the armed forces are paying lip service is ludicrous... you're definitely right that the top officers in the military are not brainwashed by any means and pay lip service, but these North Koreans 18-30ish who enlist and make up the majority of the military... I really would highly doubt they are just "paying lip service".


If the people have no connection to the outside world apart from very rarely when Westerners visit, then how do we know that they're not paying lip service?
 
And why is it 'ludicrous' to imagine that people who are conscripted into the army, and whose career and life prospects depend on their loyalty to the party, may be slightly insincere in expressing their support for the party and the state? It is just as ludicrous to assume that all of their beliefs are sincere just because they are expressed vociferously.
 
I would certainly assume that the vast majority of citizens are conscious of their oppression and living conditions, but they certainly don't wish to end up in a concentration camp for talking freely to a Westerner.
 

Both countries would suffer extremely harsh consequences if there were a war, but any military expert will tell you that once a combined (probable) ROK, US, NATO states, and Japanese military machine crosses the DMZ, North Korea will be finished.
 
Logistically speaking, a war with North Korea would of course have negative effects on the global economy, but honestly, there CAN be talk of a military intervention if it is warranted. One would be costly but it would result in ROK/US/allied forces winning relatively swiftly... nothing like 03 Iraq but it wouldn't be some 5 year drawn out war. The Chinese don't want to deal with the North Koreans and if they were offered a fair settlement to just stay out from the US/ROK, they'd be fine with it. In my opinion an annexation by China of areas of North Korea is not unforeseeable.


I wasn't talking about whether or not a combined force could overrun the DPRK, because that's really quite obvious. I was talking about whether or not such an intervention was likely in the current political climate. I would have to say no. Hypothetically anything could happen, but would the West really seek to invade North Korea and put Seoul at risk of a missile strike? Again, I would have to say no.
 

I don't know about that. We really have very little (public) details on North Korean concentration camps, but the notion that it isn't problematic because they only contain North Koreans is sort of... ridiculous. The people in German concentration camps were for the most part subjects of the Third Reich... Poland, parts of the Soviet Union, etc. were all subjected. And even if they weren't I don't see how that would lower the negatives of the concentration camps.

I qualified my statement with 'nearly as' because if you think about it a country subjecting its own citizens to cruel and unjust punishments is definitely less of a problem to the West than a country which has invaded much of Europe and which is conducting ethnic cleansing on a massive scale. Do you see where I'm coming from?

 

The key issue here is that North Korea is not acting beyond its borders like NAZI Germany did. Your use of the word 'subject' to describe Polish Jews and other groups did make me laugh, because that appears to be completely misreading what I originally wrote, or applying a completely different meaning to it. Whilst these countries were technically 'subjected' -- there is a definite difference between acts against citizens from other countries, and acts against the citizens of your own.

 

Of course it doesn't 'lower the negatives' of the North Korean concentration camps, that wasn't what I said. I was merely pointing out that such facts make Western military intervention on those grounds less likely. The concentration camps remain barbarous and unfair, that much is obvious, but I wasn't trying to justify them -- just to point out that there probably won't be a military intervention on the back of them.
 


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#18

Posted 15 June 2014 - 11:22 AM

North Korea is what happens when the west ruins a country but fail to oust the ruling class.

 

The original revolution was sincere but the interfering parties destroyed any chance of it's success. Now they've turned into a weirdo post apocalyptic pain world in order to cling on to power. Congratulations everyone.


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#19

Posted 15 June 2014 - 01:36 PM

North Korea is what happens when the west ruins a country but fail to oust the ruling class.


What does that make South Korea, then?
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#20

Posted 15 June 2014 - 03:46 PM

What happens when the west ruins a country and then props up a succession of dictatorships. Kudos to the south koreans for having almost 30 years now of nothing entirely terrible happening.


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#21

Posted 15 June 2014 - 06:30 PM

Economic growth, decent standard of living, relatively liberal. Can't say they're doing awfully given the state of the international community these days.
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#22

Posted 15 June 2014 - 08:34 PM

Yeah, exactly. But before the current era (1987 or so) it was trash.


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#23

Posted 15 June 2014 - 09:13 PM

That mantra applies to the overwhelming majority of the world, though. In fact, that mantra applies to the overwhelming majority of the world right now. DPRK is in that overwhelming majority, SK is not.

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#24

Posted 20 June 2014 - 11:11 PM Edited by Ziggy455, 20 June 2014 - 11:14 PM.

When I look at North Korea, I see totalitarianism. Of course the place is ran by a dictator, but when I look at South Korea, I see at least some form of the West, and capitalism seems to be thing there as opposed to the communist-like North. Not to say NK is at all a part of the Marx movement but go figure, it might as well. 

 

The average North Korean is brainwashed, or just speaks this way out of fear?

 

Good lawd, of course they're not brainwashed. It's a totalitarianism country--Fear fuels North Korea, and helps keep the population in line.

 

That Kim Jong-Un will last his lifetime as the leader of North Korea?

Yes. It is the way of dictators to live very long lives. I mean look at Saddam, or Qadaffi! They live until they are overthrown. 

 

That any meaningful change will happen there during our lifetime?

I suspect if anything else occurs like the imminent threat of nuclear weapons against the USA. (I'm not speculating whether or not NK would have done this in the first place) but maybe in our lifetime there would be some unforeseeable purpose as to the occupation of American troops in North Korea. Maybe a breakdown of politics, but that's pushing things in my opinion. Honestly, I don't know. Only time will tell.

 

That we will see a unified Korea, ever?

Unless South Korea would like to drop any notion of freedom, and become a part of what I feel is an oppressed country, yes, but in reality, God no. South Korea will never unite with North Korea. I wouldn't see it happening. 


 

That the international community will do something about genocide and concentration camps that are increasingly reaching the levels of Nazi Germany?

 

 

Going back to the occupation of troops, I'd say that eventually something would be done.

 

Why do you think the international community is so compelled to intervene in places where the human rights abuses seem to be on a much smaller scale than what goes on here?

 

Because North Korea is a volatile country, with a volatile political sector. You have to be careful when approaching countries about their own policies.

Why are high level party officials that have been part of the establishment for decades suddenly being purged? Is anything big going on, or is this justbusiness as usual?

 

Why would there be a need for a purge? It's not like they'd need to overthrow party officials. They're pretty much extinguishing life by the thousands and nobody's doing much about it.

 

I'm sorry if my answers seemed too vague or bland. I'm no expert, or even an amateur when it comes to debating politics. 

 

EDIT: Will return after my training montage.

 

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