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On Internet Piracy.

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BuyMeTheMoon
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#31

Posted 13 December 2013 - 10:19 AM

I understand all of that, hence why I do not pirate, so I am pretty sure my head is not lodged in my ass, nor has it ever been there, concerning this debate at least, I think you should read my post more clearly.

I didn't ask you if it was right or wrong, I was asking how it is the same as stealing when someone isn't physically removing the item from someone else and that someone else isn't incurring overhead losses for the goods.

I understand that if someone chooses to get it for free, rather than paying for it, that isn't necessarily right.
I was curious though, If someone pirates something, but they wouldn't pay for it even if that meant they couldn't use the item, does that make it wrong in any way? Either way nobody is getting money, but at least in this scenario someone's work is being appreciated and someone is gaining enjoyment, if anything the content creator is benefiting because it's free word-of-mouth advertisement which is one of the most effective forms of advertisement in many instances. Text colour added to distinguish between quotes more easily.

 

 

 

 

Figure of speak- it means come to your senses.

Even though you define piracy as stealing or not, you are still taking something away from somebody even though it's not physically. The movie is the directors product that he created, and you are supposed to pay to watch it, this is how the director earns money. This works the same way as the supermarket, they earn money because you buy something, if everyone stole things they wouldn't be able to have the supermarket anymore. When you download a movie, you take something that you SHOULD have been paying for, wether it is a COPY or not. 

 

If you designed a website, and someone took your design, wouldn't you say they stole your design?

 

But wether it is defined as stealing or not- it is still illegal on the same level as driving too fast, punching someone, raping someone or drunk driving.

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sivispacem
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#32

Posted 13 December 2013 - 10:20 AM Edited by sivispacem, 13 December 2013 - 10:21 AM.

The "piracy isn't stealing" stuff is a little bit misleading because there are other sorts of theft that don't involve the direct removal of something but its copying.

If someone skims your credit card they've "stolen" your details.

Identity theft doesn't mean the real you ceases to exist.

"Theft" of intellectual property is still theft even though it rarely involves the property actually being removed, only copied.

If I pilfer your bank details and get arrested for it I'll be charged with conspiracy to steal.

If I take copies of protectively marked materials without permission and send them to newspapers I have, according to current legislation, stolen these documents.
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CatDog96
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#33

Posted 13 December 2013 - 10:21 AM

I always pirate stuff 


BuyMeTheMoon
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#34

Posted 13 December 2013 - 10:31 AM

The "piracy isn't stealing" stuff is a little bit misleading because there are other sorts of theft that don't involve the direct removal of something but its copying.

If someone skims your credit card they've "stolen" your details.

Identity theft doesn't mean the real you ceases to exist.

"Theft" of intellectual property is still theft even though it rarely involves the property actually being removed, only copied.

If I pilfer your bank details and get arrested for it I'll be charged with conspiracy to steal.

If I take copies of protectively marked materials without permission and send them to newspapers I have, according to current legislation, stolen these documents.

Yes.

 

"I'm just copying this guys identity for my own use" doesn't make sense.


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#35

Posted 13 December 2013 - 10:48 AM

Before internet piracy we used to go to the library, loan a disc for a week and make a copy of it at home (including copying the box art).

 

I don't understand why people would pirate music, "virtual" albums are so cheap nowadays and you can preview all the music on YouTube/Soundcloud/whatever before you decide to support the musician.

 

Games hardly have any free demo's anymore, sometimes you need a sneak peek before you decide to buy something or not.


CatDog96
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#36

Posted 13 December 2013 - 10:54 AM

I remember when I was younger we use to rent videos and hook up the vhs to the vcr and record them.


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#37

Posted 13 December 2013 - 10:58 AM

There's a rule against discussion of piracy, I assume to avoid weeding out admitted pirates, but whatever, f*ck teh rules. 5lMK751.gif

 

I think piracy is justifiable after certain amounts of time, ie: movies are okay to pirate four years after they've been out, games get four years, music albums get two, etc. The majority of the people who had their heart set on getting the game have it by then, and the profits are pretty much decided at that point, they're only making a few thousand sales a month at that point, and the majority of those sales would have bought anyway. Software piracy is never justifiable until the company selling it drops support (ie: winamp, if it was premium; see abandonware), because they expected to sell until they went defunct, people don't really buy software in masses like they do new movies or new games.

 

'course that doesn't make it correct over buying. You should still be buying your media if you have the means.


BuyMeTheMoon
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#38

Posted 13 December 2013 - 11:04 AM Edited by BuyMeTheMoon, 13 December 2013 - 11:05 AM.

Games hardly have any free demo's anymore, sometimes you need a sneak peek before you decide to buy something or not.

One of the things I hate, is that there is no return for video games if the sealing is opened, at least not here in Norway. (Unless you buy them at a specific video game store.)

 

And because there is hardly any demos as yo mention, you don't know if you will like the game or not. What if you buy a game you hate.. Like I did with COD Ghosts. There was no turning back even though I only played it for 2 hours. I would know that I hated it if I could try a demo first.

If you buy a t-shirt, you have the possibility of trying it on before you buy it. And if you buy it, then change your mind- you can return it and get your money back. The same with a screwdriver, if you don't like it you can return it if you have the original box and the receipt. 

 

Their argument in the stores here are: "Well, if so, people could just buy it- watch/play it - and then return it". But the same thing goes for clothes and everything else anyway. You could buy a power meter, use it for your purpose, and then return it. "I didn't need it after all". 

 


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#39

Posted 13 December 2013 - 11:12 AM Edited by Killerdude8, 13 December 2013 - 11:15 AM.

 

it isn't even Topical anymore, Limewire is dead. :p


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#40

Posted 13 December 2013 - 11:20 AM

 

Games hardly have any free demo's anymore, sometimes you need a sneak peek before you decide to buy something or not.

One of the things I hate, is that there is no return for video games if the sealing is opened, at least not here in Norway. (Unless you buy them at a specific video game store.)

 

And because there is hardly any demos as yo mention, you don't know if you will like the game or not. What if you buy a game you hate.. Like I did with COD Ghosts. There was no turning back even though I only played it for 2 hours. I would know that I hated it if I could try a demo first.

If you buy a t-shirt, you have the possibility of trying it on before you buy it. And if you buy it, then change your mind- you can return it and get your money back. The same with a screwdriver, if you don't like it you can return it if you have the original box and the receipt. 

 

Their argument in the stores here are: "Well, if so, people could just buy it- watch/play it - and then return it". But the same thing goes for clothes and everything else anyway. You could buy a power meter, use it for your purpose, and then return it. "I didn't need it after all". 

 

 

 

Well for games, you could wait for some days and watch 1-2 episodes of a "Let's play xxx".

 

Either your interest will grow or you won't like it all.

 

But i agree, i don't like the fact that comapnies don't release so many demos anymore..

 

Anyone remembers those PS1 magazines with a disc? 12-14 Demos a month..

 

Times fly by :(

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BuyMeTheMoon
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#41

Posted 13 December 2013 - 11:27 AM

Yes of course.. But I don't actually get a good enough impression of that. I'm so picky on games that I really need to try them myself to get a good impression. Sucks for me though :/ Would have been awesome with more demos :)


OMFGSolaX
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#42

Posted 13 December 2013 - 11:29 AM

Hm, we have some rental stores here.

Don't know about Norway, but except for the MP we take the game home and play it for like 2€ a day.

 

That would be another solution.


BuyMeTheMoon
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#43

Posted 13 December 2013 - 11:48 AM

Maybe I'll open a store here in Norway. A game rental store :D

...Would never work though :(


OMFGSolaX
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#44

Posted 13 December 2013 - 11:50 AM

Maybe I'll open a store here in Norway. A game rental store :D

...Would never work though :(

 

Haha, 

 

you would be suprised. 

I'll order my games from you then. If you pay the shipping :D

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SouthLand
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#45

Posted 13 December 2013 - 12:09 PM

I download everything i can for free and i don't care if it's illegal or legal.

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theadmiral
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#46

Posted 13 December 2013 - 01:14 PM Edited by theadmiral, 13 December 2013 - 01:14 PM.

I personally do not pirate (I have in 1 or 2 very isolated  incidents, such as playing a cricket game I knew was going to be an absolute disaster), but I really don't care if anyone else does.

 

The people who try to rationalize it by saying it isn't theft need to wake up though. You are a thief, embrace it. It isn't the worst thing in the world to be.


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#47

Posted 13 December 2013 - 01:16 PM Edited by AceKingston, 13 December 2013 - 01:16 PM.

I'm a greedy Serbian immigrant in America. I don't need to pirate things. All I need to do is walk in to the store, point the gun at the cashier and take what I want.

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Nonpareil1983
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#48

Posted 13 December 2013 - 01:30 PM Edited by Shenmue18, 13 December 2013 - 01:30 PM.

I don't pirate sh*t. Because it's basically the same as stealing, someone took time, money and effort to make content and if you pirate it, even though you aren't stealing a physical copy, that still takes away from their profit. So, I never pirate anything unless it's something that is unreleased that I can't buy somewhere.


Finn 7 five 11
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#49

Posted 13 December 2013 - 02:03 PM

 

Games hardly have any free demo's anymore, sometimes you need a sneak peek before you decide to buy something or not.

One of the things I hate, is that there is no return for video games if the sealing is opened, at least not here in Norway. (Unless you buy them at a specific video game store.)

 

And because there is hardly any demos as yo mention, you don't know if you will like the game or not. What if you buy a game you hate.. Like I did with COD Ghosts. There was no turning back even though I only played it for 2 hours. I would know that I hated it if I could try a demo first.

If you buy a t-shirt, you have the possibility of trying it on before you buy it. And if you buy it, then change your mind- you can return it and get your money back. The same with a screwdriver, if you don't like it you can return it if you have the original box and the receipt. 

 

Their argument in the stores here are: "Well, if so, people could just buy it- watch/play it - and then return it". But the same thing goes for clothes and everything else anyway. You could buy a power meter, use it for your purpose, and then return it. "I didn't need it after all". 

 

I think they stopped demo's because they were just increased overheads and buying games back then was a bigger deal that it is now, people were very selective of what they bought and didn't really know about the different developers and such so extra convincing was required, now games sell more on established names and developers. Also back in 2000 internet was nowhere near where it is now, hell there wasn't even Youtube until 5 years later which is a centralized location for trailers, the internet Youtube have basically taken over Demo's, why have Demo's when they can just release a trailer which does almost the same thing but for much less money and spreads out to a wider audience.

Sure Demo's were nice, but in the current gaming climate, they don't really make much sense, that said as we move more towards digital media, Demo's are going to become prevalent again, or at least a little more because it's financially much more viable to do it digitally than having to pay for discs to send to people. 


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#50

Posted 13 December 2013 - 03:21 PM

I do see how piracy can harm content owners, but I'm not convinced about the anti-piracy arguments because there is a double standard involved. You can watch a movie or play a game with all of your friends and nobody will say a thing. You can even borrow disks to as many people as you want. Nobody cares, but when it comes to internet sharing somehow things are different (illegal). I don't understand that.

 

I also think that sharing information should be a right or just like freedom of speech. I wonder what will happen when 3D printers will be able to print fully functioning devices. Will those companies that create 3D printers get sued? Probably.


sivispacem
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#51

Posted 13 December 2013 - 03:27 PM

Sharing information in what way? Why should anyone have the right to, for instance, share proprietary information with others if that information is the property of a third party, without their express permission?

I don't think there's a double standard involved in relation to piracy versus borrowing and lending because the latter is usually permitted under the licence agreement and the former is not.

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#52

Posted 13 December 2013 - 03:30 PM

Piracy can't be called as a crime though, it's legal in some countries like India. 

 

Honestly though, you must admit nearly everyone has pirated something. Even downloading a song is pirating so calling it a crime would mean calling all of us criminals.


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#53

Posted 13 December 2013 - 03:41 PM Edited by WinterEdit, 13 December 2013 - 03:42 PM.

Piracy...

 

Well. It don't think it's "morally correct". After all, it's basically thieving. But it is the simplicity, ease of use and unlikelihood to get caught. Because the government is busy monitoring WoW... oh, wait, I lost the track of my thoughts.

 

Piracy's not likely to go away, possibly ever, unless someone magically makes it so that it issues a life sentence per thing pirated, 100% sure. Then it might cease to exist.

 

It's illegal in many places, for a reason (money away from the creators!). But I do not think it falls for one person pirating the game. They still get great amounts of money from people, since not everyone pirates things. If more people pirated, then it could be a problem regarding the budget and money of the guys who created the thing you pirated.

 

ThePirateBay seems to be working well either way and no governments have tried to lately put them to prison. Or at least that hasn't been on the news. It could mean they're doing somewhat legitimate work with a pirate site, lol. And even if it fell - there are numerous torrent sites that continue its legacy.

 

tl;dr - I don't approve major piracy, but a song/game/movie here and there doesn't hurt. Right? Right...?


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#54

Posted 13 December 2013 - 03:50 PM Edited by Criѕtian, 13 December 2013 - 03:54 PM.

Sharing information in what way? Why should anyone have the right to, for instance, share proprietary information with others if that information is the property of a third party, without their express permission?

I don't think there's a double standard involved in relation to piracy versus borrowing and lending because the latter is usually permitted under the licence agreement and the former is not.

Obviously it should be illegal to share information that would harm individuals, but in the case of (media) content the information is already out there. I can (in theory) have access to it by borrowing the thing from a friend. Or at least I could meet up with someone that has the movie\game\whatever and it would basically be legal to borrow it from him. If this happens over the internet it is illegal. That's the double standard.

 

Yes, but if the license explicitly forbade borrowing\lending how would they enforce it? Lending\borrowing any other thing is not illegal. I don't think digital products should be treated differently.


sivispacem
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#55

Posted 13 December 2013 - 04:05 PM

The main difference is that if you lend a product to someone, you both generally can't continue to use the product simultaneously. Whereas if you make an .iso image of a program installation disk that you post on the internet you can. Plus you can only "lend"to one person, plus lending something doesn't increase the amount of it in circulation.

In truth they're absolutely nothing alike and I don't understand why anyone would compare them.

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#56

Posted 13 December 2013 - 04:09 PM

 

Sharing information in what way? Why should anyone have the right to, for instance, share proprietary information with others if that information is the property of a third party, without their express permission?

I don't think there's a double standard involved in relation to piracy versus borrowing and lending because the latter is usually permitted under the licence agreement and the former is not.

Obviously it should be illegal to share information that would harm individuals, but in the case of (media) content the information is already out there. I can (in theory) have access to it by borrowing the thing from a friend. Or at least I could meet up with someone that has the movie\game\whatever and it would basically be legal to borrow it from him. If this happens over the internet it is illegal. That's the double standard.

 

Yes, but if the license explicitly forbade borrowing\lending how would they enforce it? Lending\borrowing any other thing is not illegal. I don't think digital products should be treated differently.

 

 

I think the problem lies in the mass copying of certain things. Such as sharing files on Peer-to-Peer torrent sites, thousands of people can copy it vs. you copying it for a handful of friends.


Kristian.
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#57

Posted 13 December 2013 - 04:29 PM

The main difference is that if you lend a product to someone, you both generally can't continue to use the product simultaneously. Whereas if you make an .iso image of a program installation disk that you post on the internet you can. Plus you can only "lend"to one person, plus lending something doesn't increase the amount of it in circulation.

In truth they're absolutely nothing alike and I don't understand why anyone would compare them.

You are talking about software, but it doesn't apply for movies and music for example (which can be copied\ripped from the original disk and you won't get arrested for it;it's basically legal). The idea is that (in theory) I can have access to any content legally (or at least not get punished for it) and free.

 

"absolutely nothing alike"? Maybe you've already made up your mind about this subject. I'm not even defending piracy per se, I think that people have the moral obligation to buy something if they like it. I just noticed the logical inconsistencies.


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#58

Posted 13 December 2013 - 04:46 PM Edited by haythem09, 13 December 2013 - 04:47 PM.

I have good job for those willing to sell pirate DVDs in market. Mr Wong will pay you well.

 

We make best quality pirate DVD for low price. We have very respectable business. You will work here.

 

art-Pirate-DVD-620x349.jpg


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#59

Posted 13 December 2013 - 05:00 PM


The main difference is that if you lend a product to someone, you both generally can't continue to use the product simultaneously. Whereas if you make an .iso image of a program installation disk that you post on the internet you can. Plus you can only "lend"to one person, plus lending something doesn't increase the amount of it in circulation.

In truth they're absolutely nothing alike and I don't understand why anyone would compare them.

You are talking about software, but it doesn't apply for movies and music for example (which can be copied\ripped from the original disk and you won't get arrested for it;it's basically legal). The idea is that (in theory) I can have access to any content legally (or at least not get punished for it) and free.
 
"absolutely nothing alike"? Maybe you've already made up your mind about this subject. I'm not even defending piracy per se, I think that people have the moral obligation to buy something if they like it. I just noticed the logical inconsistencies.

It's legal to make copies of films or music but not to distribute those copies, whether in hard form or via the internet. Just because very few people get arrested or charged with it or are subject to sanctions does not make something practically legal as you seem to imply.

As for whether I've "made up my mind" I think piracy is largely the responsibility of the licence holders for dramatically overcharging for products and using opaque terms of service agreements, stifling competition so they can drive up prices etc etc, but that doesn't mean I'm naive enough to think that lending a mate a film but happening to have a copy backed up is the same as placing the same film on a file-sharing website. It simply isn't and it's logic like that which turns popular opinion away from the somewhat valid point that pirates should be making about the closed and opaque software and entertainment markets.

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#60

Posted 13 December 2013 - 05:02 PM

The lengths people will go to to try to convince themselves that they are not thieves!





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