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I was just playing the game as intended OR Griefing, the "WTF"

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Miss Malevolent
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#61

Posted 04 December 2013 - 10:56 PM

Killing someone who hasn't fired a single bullet at you is griefing imo.
 
If they are fighting back its a legit battle and the better player'll come out ontop (or the higher rank)
 
If they shoot at you its open season on them.


You know what they call a person who waits for someone else to shoot at them first? Dead.

I assume, if I see a white dot speeding towards me, they're coming to shoot me, and thus I get prepared to shoot them first.

That's the name of the game, kill or be killed. Hell, Rockstar even says so on the load up screens.

Furry_Monkey
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#62

Posted 04 December 2013 - 11:32 PM

 

Killing someone who hasn't fired a single bullet at you is griefing imo.
 
If they are fighting back its a legit battle and the better player'll come out ontop (or the higher rank)
 
If they shoot at you its open season on them.


You know what they call a person who waits for someone else to shoot at them first? Dead.

I assume, if I see a white dot speeding towards me, they're coming to shoot me, and thus I get prepared to shoot them first.

That's the name of the game, kill or be killed. Hell, Rockstar even says so on the load up screens.

 

People call me dead?  That's weird, since I'm not.


giraffeboy
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#63

Posted 05 December 2013 - 12:22 AM

If I'm on foot, I always assume others are hostile and will try and kill anyone around me, but in a car I'm much more friendly and will stop for players etc, dunno why really, probably feel safer in a car and can try and escape if attacked I suppose

AzraelX
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#64

Posted 05 December 2013 - 12:40 AM

I hear a lot about griefing in GTA:O and I personally have experienced being griefed, as well as being on the giving end from time to time.  But my question is "What really is griefing?" I feel that being attacked and repeatedly targeted by a tank would qualify (I put expensive PVs in their line of fire, but most tank pilots have unlimited $$ so it really doesn't matter), as well as spawn killing over and over.  But some people seem to think drive-by shootings, random gun battles and sneak-bombing PVs would count... IMHO being in a public lobby is saying "Yes" to PVP.  If someone drives by me when I am involved in other actions, I sure as hell hope they leave me alone, but I expect and prepare for an attack every time.  Am I wrong in killing anyone who comes near me?  Worse yet, does that make me a griefer??

Didn't read the rest of the thread, I'd hope someone else answered you in the last 3 pages. But if not...

 

Being attacked by a tank repeatedly is not griefing. They are not doing anything unintended by the developers. The game even rewards them for doing it.

 

Ramming PVs into a stationary tank to force the penalty on them was a form of griefing, although Rockstar quickly put a stop to that.

 

The other things you described are also not griefing, they are clearly intentional gameplay. This is a game with nonconsensual PvP by design.

 

You are not wrong in killing anyone, any number of times, for any reason. Passive mode exists for people who need help escaping conflicts.

 

The only thing you mentioned that even remotely resembles griefing is putting PVs in front of a tank on purpose to bait them into destroying them, and it doesn't count because you're only giving them the option to penalize themselves legitimately, which they then choose to take.

 

The only form of griefing people use in free roam now is dragging a car with a towtruck to freeze other people's consoles. Everything else is fair game.


Jolly Swagman
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#65

Posted 05 December 2013 - 12:49 AM

 

I hear a lot about griefing in GTA:O and I personally have experienced being griefed, as well as being on the giving end from time to time.  But my question is "What really is griefing?" I feel that being attacked and repeatedly targeted by a tank would qualify (I put expensive PVs in their line of fire, but most tank pilots have unlimited $$ so it really doesn't matter), as well as spawn killing over and over.  But some people seem to think drive-by shootings, random gun battles and sneak-bombing PVs would count... IMHO being in a public lobby is saying "Yes" to PVP.  If someone drives by me when I am involved in other actions, I sure as hell hope they leave me alone, but I expect and prepare for an attack every time.  Am I wrong in killing anyone who comes near me?  Worse yet, does that make me a griefer??

Didn't read the rest of the thread, I'd hope someone else answered you in the last 3 pages. But if not...

 

Being attacked by a tank repeatedly is not griefing. They are not doing anything unintended by the developers. The game even rewards them for doing it.

 

Ramming PVs into a stationary tank to force the penalty on them was a form of griefing, although Rockstar quickly put a stop to that.

 

The other things you described are also not griefing, they are clearly intentional gameplay. This is a game with nonconsensual PvP by design.

 

You are not wrong in killing anyone, any number of times, for any reason. Passive mode exists for people who need help escaping conflicts.

 

The only thing you mentioned that even remotely resembles griefing is putting PVs in front of a tank on purpose to bait them into destroying them, and it doesn't count because you're only giving them the option to penalize themselves legitimately, which they then choose to take.

 

The only form of griefing people use in free roam now is dragging a car with a towtruck to freeze other people's consoles. Everything else is fair game.

 

 

You've got a real bee in you bonnet about what people call greifing don't you? So it's greifing driving a car in front of a tank but not greifing to repeatedly spawn kill someone from the tank? Call your tank spawn killing whatever you want if it makes you feel better.


SOHC_VTEC
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#66

Posted 05 December 2013 - 12:55 AM

Best quote to use for gaming: "don't want none don't start none."

AzraelX
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#67

Posted 05 December 2013 - 12:57 AM

You've got a real bee in you bonnet about what people call greifing don't you? So it's greifing driving a car in front of a tank but not greifing to repeatedly spawn kill someone from the tank? Call your tank spawn killing whatever you want if it makes you feel better.

This is a forum for an online game, it's perfectly natural to correct someone that misuses a well-established online gaming term.

 

Not to mention, this is a thread specifically asking for the definition, which I simply answered directly.

 

It is not griefing to drive a car in front of a tank, it used to be griefing to drive a car into a tank when it wasn't even moving. The Bad Sport system is specifically designed to punish people for intentionally destroying PVs. If you force them to destroy your PV when they don't want to, so the Bad Sport system punishes them for something they didn't do, that makes you a griefer. It's using mechanics in an unintended way to unfairly ruin the game for another player.

 

However, Rockstar immediately patched it out of the game so people would not be able to do it. They also removed 95% of the towtrucks online. They've made it very clear that they're taking a hard stance against griefing, in free roam at least.

 

As for your suggestion that I'm saying this to make myself feel better or something, that's quite a faulty assumption. I don't go around randomly spawn killing people with tanks, I greatly prefer the Buzzard, and prefer being on foot even more.

 

I don't think it makes it better just because it isn't griefing. There are a lot more ways to troll and be an asshole than there are ways to grief.


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#68

Posted 05 December 2013 - 01:05 AM

I think you should invest more of your time into discussing this matter.


Mr. Crowley
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#69

Posted 05 December 2013 - 01:10 AM

I enjoy the f*ck out of the game.  Just wanted opinions on online behavior and what is/isn't considered kosher.

Why should you care what other's opinions of your virtual behavior is? ESPECIALLY anyone here.
Well... people say I have no heart, and therefore I should NOT care.  But I assure you, this isn't true.  I care because I DO have a heart... I have the heart of a 7 year old boy in a jar of formaldehyde on a shelf in my office.

Ew, WTF is wrong with you.




...you're supposed to eat the heart, not ruin it with formaldehyde.
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#70

Posted 05 December 2013 - 01:48 AM

Didn't read the rest of the thread, I'd hope someone else answered you in the last 3 pages. But if not...

 

Being attacked by a tank repeatedly is not griefing. They are not doing anything unintended by the developers. The game even rewards them for doing it.

 

Ramming PVs into a stationary tank to force the penalty on them was a form of griefing, although Rockstar quickly put a stop to that.

 

The other things you described are also not griefing, they are clearly intentional gameplay. This is a game with nonconsensual PvP by design.

 

You are not wrong in killing anyone, any number of times, for any reason. Passive mode exists for people who need help escaping conflicts.

 

The only thing you mentioned that even remotely resembles griefing is putting PVs in front of a tank on purpose to bait them into destroying them, and it doesn't count because you're only giving them the option to penalize themselves legitimately, which they then choose to take.

 

The only form of griefing people use in free roam now is dragging a car with a towtruck to freeze other people's consoles. Everything else is fair game.

 

 

Interesting... I don't believe I have heard it explained quite like that before. You define griefing as simply exploiting a fault in a games design in order to break it for another user?  I thought, from the origin of the word itself, it would be more like a player who is forgoing normal gameplay in order to cause misery or grief to another player.  How do you come by your definition?

 

 

 

 

 

I enjoy the f*ck out of the game.  Just wanted opinions on online behavior and what is/isn't considered kosher.

Why should you care what other's opinions of your virtual behavior is? ESPECIALLY anyone here.
Well... people say I have no heart, and therefore I should NOT care.  But I assure you, this isn't true.  I care because I DO have a heart... I have the heart of a 7 year old boy in a jar of formaldehyde on a shelf in my office.

Ew, WTF is wrong with you.




...you're supposed to eat the heart, not ruin it with formaldehyde.

 

 

I really like to keep one around, for times that people say I'm heartless.  After all, I don't also want to be a liar


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#71

Posted 05 December 2013 - 04:27 AM

I have learned like the way the game is online. Before I would hate griefers. Now I like the challenge. Until Rockstar releases online options like no friendly fire like 4, it's shoot first 24/7. I can't take that 5% chance your a cool person.


AzraelX
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#72

Posted 05 December 2013 - 06:14 AM

You define griefing as simply exploiting a fault in a games design in order to break it for another user?  I thought, from the origin of the word itself, it would be more like a player who is forgoing normal gameplay in order to cause misery or grief to another player.  How do you come by your definition?

There's two requirements:

 

1) Intent to upset/frustrate/annoy another player.

 

2) Using a game mechanic in an unintended way.

 

There were originally easier ways to grief, but Rockstar's been aggressively patching them out of free roam. The only ones left now are the towtruck griefers, who were largely wiped out in 1.06 with the added garage checker directed at deleting their towtrucks.

 

When you say "forgoing normal gameplay", it's basically the same thing. "Normal gameplay" is the gameplay that the developers intended; ie, all mechanics are being used in their intended ways. Not adhering to normal gameplay means using a mechanic in an unintended way.


mister2au
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#73

Posted 05 December 2013 - 06:31 AM

 

You define griefing as simply exploiting a fault in a games design in order to break it for another user?  I thought, from the origin of the word itself, it would be more like a player who is forgoing normal gameplay in order to cause misery or grief to another player.  How do you come by your definition?

There's two requirements:

 

1) Intent to upset/frustrate/annoy another player.

 

2) Using a game mechanic in an unintended way.

 

Think most people would agree in theory - it's the 'in practice' that varies

 

For example, is spawn killing 'using a game mechanic in an unintended way'?

 

On one hand, I'm sure Rockstar intended people to spawn and spawn into the same active/passive mode as before. On the other hand, I'm not sure they expected players to be stuck into an infinite loop of being unable to go passive/draw weapons/exit the spawn zone.

 

The spawning is clearly there to let you resume your game (other it would apartment spawn without choice).

 

So that, as an example, is a broken mechanic that in most games would spawn you far-away or into a passive mode with a cool-down. Although it is also easily fixed with button choices on the wasted screen like: "normal respawn", "apartment", "passive" .. .and then respawn griefing is a non-issue. How this stuff got past play-testing/beta-testing is beyond me !!!


AzraelX
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#74

Posted 05 December 2013 - 07:23 AM Edited by AzraelX, 05 December 2013 - 07:27 AM.

For example, is spawn killing 'using a game mechanic in an unintended way'?

No, because it's completely intentional design. They made the default mode "nonconsensual PvP", which means "go out and kill whoever you can whenever you want for any reason you have even if they don't want you to". They made the spawning system respawn the person nearby so every fight wouldn't end after 10 seconds. They added Passive Mode for people who need help avoiding conflict, and there's no way to be stuck in an "infinite loop of being unable to enter passive mode" because they even made it so you can enter during the respawn waiting screen.

 

Hell, the game even rewards them for killing you as many times as possible without letting you escape. Awards, RP, money, skins, and all kinds of rewards. It's not only intentional, it's being encouraged. It's not a necessary way to play, but it's clearly within their expected gameplay.
 

How this stuff got past play-testing/beta-testing is beyond me !!!

I would say it didn't. Every aspect of the design of this game suggests it is the way people are supposed to be playing, never mind being allowed to. They even recently patched tanks to be 1/5th the price every use, and no longer earning Bad Sport when people crash into them, and able to destroy 10x more vehicles before entering Bad Sport. If that doesn't send a clear message about how they expect people to be playing, I don't know what would.

 

As a general rule of thumb, if there's no reason to think something is unintentional, then it should be assumed that it isn't (ie, racing backwards is clearly griefing because the game tells you to race forwards, it only rewards you if you do so, and you have nothing to gain from it except for the animosity of other players).


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#75

Posted 05 December 2013 - 07:28 AM

People who bitch about griefing arent real gamers. Griefing is a part of gaming, learn to like it or GEEEEEETTT OOUUUUUUTTTT

 

Griefing Is Not Part Of Gaming In Fact I Never Heard Of "Griefing" Till Minecraft Came Out. 

There Is A Reason Other Games Try To Keep It Out. I Personally Do Not Grief But Then Again Im Not 12 :3


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#76

Posted 05 December 2013 - 07:37 AM

To me, griefing is very much a grey area, if anything is even considered griefing at all. This is a unique game in that all the "griefing" that's been claimed to have happened is pretty much preventable by the person being griefed. The "victims" let it happen to them. They often let their emotions get the better of them and blame the oppressor as being a griefer. In reality, it's actually denial on the victim's part.

 

If you don't like how some one is killing you, do something about it. If you can't seem to kill him, leave. Chances are you'll forget about the guy in less than an hour.


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#77

Posted 05 December 2013 - 07:38 AM

I enjoy the f*ck out of the game.  Just wanted opinions on online behavior and what is/isn't considered kosher.

There is no "kosher". There is no law. There are no rules. In GTAO you either kill or you die. It's that simple. You have no allies.

LS is a warzone and you need to kill every person you see. If you don't they will turn on you and kill you.
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TWA B747
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#78

Posted 05 December 2013 - 07:42 AM

Griefing Is Not Part Of Gaming In Fact I Never Heard Of "Griefing" Till Minecraft Came Out. 
There Is A Reason Other Games Try To Keep It Out. I Personally Do Not Grief But Then Again Im Not 12 :3

You're aware that you don't have to capitalize every word, right?

silentunion
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#79

Posted 05 December 2013 - 07:43 AM

 

 

You define griefing as simply exploiting a fault in a games design in order to break it for another user?  I thought, from the origin of the word itself, it would be more like a player who is forgoing normal gameplay in order to cause misery or grief to another player.  How do you come by your definition?

There's two requirements:

 

1) Intent to upset/frustrate/annoy another player.

 

2) Using a game mechanic in an unintended way.

 

Think most people would agree in theory - it's the 'in practice' that varies

 

For example, is spawn killing 'using a game mechanic in an unintended way'?

 

On one hand, I'm sure Rockstar intended people to spawn and spawn into the same active/passive mode as before. On the other hand, I'm not sure they expected players to be stuck into an infinite loop of being unable to go passive/draw weapons/exit the spawn zone.

 

The spawning is clearly there to let you resume your game (other it would apartment spawn without choice).

 

So that, as an example, is a broken mechanic that in most games would spawn you far-away or into a passive mode with a cool-down. Although it is also easily fixed with button choices on the wasted screen like: "normal respawn", "apartment", "passive" .. .and then respawn griefing is a non-issue. How this stuff got past play-testing/beta-testing is beyond me !!!

 

 

To me, spawn killing is not using a game mechanic in an unintended way. The game mechanic is to spawn you at a location nearby, It has nothing to do with what happens after that. A lot of the time you can run and hide after spawning and, if you're not having fun like the person/people who are spawnkilling you, you can simply change lobbies.


bensons
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#80

Posted 05 December 2013 - 07:45 AM

There is no such thing as griefing. If you are not liking how things are going then just turn the machine off or find another server etc etc .......simples. Why stay and get all upset and worked up?


AzraelX
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#81

Posted 05 December 2013 - 07:47 AM Edited by AzraelX, 05 December 2013 - 07:55 AM.

To me, spawn killing is not using a game mechanic in an unintended way. The game mechanic is to spawn you at a location nearby, It has nothing to do with what happens after that. A lot of the time you can run and hide after spawning and, if you're not having fun like the person/people who are spawnkilling you, you can simply change lobbies.

Right, that's why spawn killing isn't griefing.

 

To me, griefing is very much a grey area, if anything is even considered griefing at all.

In free roam, no, Rockstar has aggressively patched out all the griefing methods. The few towtrucks that dodged 1.06 will probably be swept up in 1.07.

 

In jobs and missions, yes, it's very easy to grief. Strangely, Rockstar doesn't seem to be doing anything about it yet. You don't even get Bad Sport for obvious griefing, like destroying vehicles necessary for mission completion.

 

Maybe they'll switch their focus to that after free roam has been successfully locked down, assuming that ever happens.

 

There is no such thing as griefing. If you are not liking how things are going then just turn the machine off or find another server etc etc

Of course there is. Saying that there's no such thing as griefing makes as much sense as saying that being killed repeatedly in a PvP game is griefing. Two extremes on the same spectrum which are both factually incorrect.

 

You mentioned turning your console off if you don't like what's going on, but what if I used the previously mentioned griefing method, where I drag a vehicle with a towtruck to freeze your console? Then the thing you don't like is that I'm forcing your console to turn off. It would be hard for you to then turn off the console to try to feel better about it.

 

And of course, if you join another public session, I can keep joining and shutting your console off, as much as I want to, and there's nothing you can do about it except set yourself to appear offline and hope I don't find my way into your session through any other means.

 

If you experienced this, I don't think you would still consider griefing to be nonexistent.


MajorWhytey
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#82

Posted 05 December 2013 - 09:47 AM

f*cking hate the guts out of any one who says aim bot this aim bot that is no skill, it's f*cking gta you c*nt it's always been aim assisted do your research before you say ain't no skill involved hate c*nts like yoh



Yep. The skill in auto aim is defence, staying alive and getting the pvp kill. It's a lot easier to stay alive in free aim. Staying alive and getting the pvp kill in auto aim takes a lot of skill

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#83

Posted 05 December 2013 - 10:54 AM

For example, is spawn killing 'using a game mechanic in an unintended way'?

No, because it's completely intentional design. They made the default mode "nonconsensual PvP", which means "go out and kill whoever you can whenever you want for any reason you have even if they don't want you to". They made the spawning system respawn the person nearby so every fight wouldn't end after 10 seconds. They added Passive Mode for people who need help avoiding conflict, and there's no way to be stuck in an "infinite loop of being unable to enter passive mode" because they even made it so you can enter during the respawn waiting screen.
 
Hell, the game even rewards them for killing you as many times as possible without letting you escape. Awards, RP, money, skins, and all kinds of rewards. It's not only intentional, it's being encouraged. It's not a necessary way to play, but it's clearly within their expected gameplay.
 

How this stuff got past play-testing/beta-testing is beyond me !!!

I would say it didn't. Every aspect of the design of this game suggests it is the way people are supposed to be playing, never mind being allowed to. They even recently patched tanks to be 1/5th the price every use, and no longer earning Bad Sport when people crash into them, and able to destroy 10x more vehicles before entering Bad Sport. If that doesn't send a clear message about how they expect people to be playing, I don't know what would.
 
As a general rule of thumb, if there's no reason to think something is unintentional, then it should be assumed that it isn't (ie, racing backwards is clearly griefing because the game tells you to race forwards, it only rewards you if you do so, and you have nothing to gain from it except for the animosity of other players).
The reason R* allows this is because they need people to grief on thier behalf as martars of justice, without griefing the game would get boring, and R* would lose all the griefers/sh*t starting players, which clearly outweigh the number of my little pony fanboys who want free roam to be a tea party

Hypertion
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#84

Posted 05 December 2013 - 11:05 AM Edited by Hypertion, 05 December 2013 - 12:28 PM.

I consider anyone who blows up my personal vehicle or runs me over while i am on foot with passive mode enabled to be griefing.

 

Its sad that the game basically forces PVP, its the single biggest cause of a poor community in any game.

 

I see it this way, all these people act entitled to kill me because thats how they want to play, i feel entitled to play cooperatively and friendly because thats how I want to play. Passive mode was intended to give those who didnt want to PVP constantly a way to do so. its a complete failure and too many players exploit that to cause irritation to others.

 

when you travel the entire span of the map just to run over a guy in passive mode over and over you are griefing. By definition, you are causing another player grief. And the sad thing is that you enjoy doing that....


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#85

Posted 05 December 2013 - 12:25 PM

...runs me over while i am on food...

I hate when this happens


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#86

Posted 05 December 2013 - 12:30 PM

 

...runs me over while i am on food...

I hate when this happens

 

fixed.

 

but i will admit tho going to get something to eat to come back and finding someone running me over and over again... its rather sad in my opinion since it has no effect on me at all when that happens.

 

of course i run over NPCs all the time and have a personal vendetta against stoplights, so its not like i am a stranger to pointless violence.


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#87

Posted 05 December 2013 - 02:46 PM

I consider anyone who blows up my personal vehicle or runs me over while i am on foot with passive mode enabled to be griefing.

 

Its sad that the game basically forces PVP, its the single biggest cause of a poor community in any game.

 

I see it this way, all these people act entitled to kill me because thats how they want to play, i feel entitled to play cooperatively and friendly because thats how I want to play. Passive mode was intended to give those who didnt want to PVP constantly a way to do so. its a complete failure and too many players exploit that to cause irritation to others.

 

when you travel the entire span of the map just to run over a guy in passive mode over and over you are griefing. By definition, you are causing another player grief. And the sad thing is that you enjoy doing that....

 

I think for the most part, I agree with you here except that I think PvP can create a great community, as it forces people to bond together in their crews against common enemies.  

 

I have also read a number of posts sort of defining griefing as acts the devs didn't intend in the game, and here I disagree.  The "Establishment(developers)" sets the rules of physics in any MMO, but we as the players form the gaming culture and set those standards.  If we as a community (majority rules here) decide that killing any player who does not want to fight and is actively fleeing is griefing, then we as a community have a responsibility to step up and help these players and enforce that cultural normal.  If we as a community decide the LSC glitch is unacceptable, then we have a equal responsibility to safeguard against that particular issue.  I created this thread to try and determine for myself what the community feels on this issue and it sounds like the vocal members of the online portion are all over the place, no consensus.  


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#88

Posted 05 December 2013 - 03:09 PM

this game brings out the worst in people

yesterday I wanted to try and take some action photo's of people fighting eachother

so I was in passive standing on a ledge, and every time some asshole went out of his way to kill me anyway

like waiting for minutes on end than getting a fire truck to hose me to death

and not once or twice the whole f*cking time

I'm clearly just standing there taking photo's why the f*ck would you choose me over a whole bunch of targets fighting all around you

is a static target not doing anything that much more fun than being in an all out battle?

 

people are stupid


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#89

Posted 05 December 2013 - 03:12 PM

this game brings out the worst in people

yesterday I wanted to try and take some action photo's of people fighting eachother

so I was in passive standing on a ledge, and every time some asshole went out of his way to kill me anyway

like waiting for minutes on end than getting a fire truck to hose me to death

and not once or twice the whole f*cking time

I'm clearly just standing there taking photo's why the f*ck would you choose me over a whole bunch of targets fighting all around you

is a static target not doing anything that much more fun than being in an all out battle?

 

people are stupid

you've got to be joking right? criminals desiring to off a photographer taking pictures of their criminal activity?

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Zwenkwiel
  • Zwenkwiel

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#90

Posted 05 December 2013 - 03:49 PM

beat_savy_9, on 05 Dec 2013 - 4:12 PM, said:

 

Zwenkwiel, on 05 Dec 2013 - 4:09 PM, said:

this game brings out the worst in people

yesterday I wanted to try and take some action photo's of people fighting eachother

so I was in passive standing on a ledge, and every time some asshole went out of his way to kill me anyway

like waiting for minutes on end than getting a fire truck to hose me to death

and not once or twice the whole f*cking time

I'm clearly just standing there taking photo's why the f*ck would you choose me over a whole bunch of targets fighting all around you

is a static target not doing anything that much more fun than being in an all out battle?

 

people are stupid

you've got to be joking right? criminals desiring to off a photographer taking pictures of their criminal activity?

 

 

lol, never realised people would be roleplaying this much XD

than again what criminal would stand around waiting for said photographer to come down of his ledge while the cops are everywhere.





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