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I'm White and I'm Sorry.

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Ermacs
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#31

Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:12 PM

The Natives don't need repayment, they're already getting back at the "white man" by ripping them off in their many casinos across the great plains known as the USA./nosarcasm


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#32

Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:22 PM

If you have a leg up in the world today because your ancestors built fortunes ont he backs of slaves, then yes, for f*ck's sake, you owe a debt of gratitude and burden some shame.

But i think you'll find, whatsstrength, that the OP was specifically speaking about himself. ;) and I think it's awesome. To acknowledge this sh*t is to overcome it.

But how are we gonna pay back the natives, guys? And I'm only being 5% cheeky.

 

Why should you be ashamed of something you had no part in? That's just silly. Even if his family had "built a fortune" he still wouldn't be indebted, he had no say in it, no ability to disapprove, etc.


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#33

Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:29 PM

If you have a leg up in the world today because your ancestors built fortunes ont he backs of slaves, then yes, for f*ck's sake, you owe a debt of gratitude and burden some shame.

But i think you'll find, whatsstrength, that the OP was specifically speaking about himself. ;) and I think it's awesome. To acknowledge this sh*t is to overcome it.

But how are we gonna pay back the natives, guys? And I'm only being 5% cheeky.

Yes, but not everyone who had slave owner ancestors has their wealth, so you can't expect someone in the middle class to give up much of their own money to pay reparations to the descendants of the slaves.


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#34

Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:34 PM

@ Vly - Why does your lack of complicity in something terrible make it OK to reap the awards? Do you think it's OK to make a fortune off of Nazi gold or recovered paintings? Would you buy stolen merchandise and expect no repurcussion?

It's too easy to say 'it was the past'. That's an immature fallback position in the face of frustration. No, you don't (this hypothetical beneficiary of slavery) owe anything monetarily, but you certainly owe your livestyle to something evil. Ignoring that is a kind of intentional ignorance that is almost criminal in my eyes.

Which brings me to the natives - and the fact that we, colonizers, inadvertantly created an apocalypse here. It's OK - and important - to admit that, and take pains to prevent it ever happening again.

Edit - whatstrength - haven't said anything about reparations.

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#35

Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:39 PM

@ Vly - Why does your lack of complicity in something terrible make it OK to reap the awards? Do you think it's OK to make a fortune off of Nazi gold or recovered paintings? Would you buy stolen merchandise and expect no repurcussion?

It's too easy to say 'it was the past'. That's an immature fallback position in the face of frustration. No, you don't (this hypothetical beneficiary of slavery) owe anything monetarily, but you certainly owe your livestyle to something evil. Ignoring that is a kind of intentional ignorance that is almost criminal in my eyes.

Which brings me to the natives - and the fact that we, colonizers, inadvertantly created an apocalypse here. It's OK - and important - to admit that, and take pains to prevent it ever happening again.

 

I have no problem admitting something tragic happened by my ancestor's hand, but to say I should feel personal guilt for it is stupid. If I had a Great Grandfather who was part of the Shutzstaffel, should I personally feel guilty for what happened since he was paid a salary for it?


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#36

Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:42 PM

...yes? Let the guilt flow.

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#37

Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:46 PM

...yes? Let the guilt flow.

 

I didn't have slave owner or Shutzstaffel/Nazi ancestors, just an example. All I'm saying is feeling personal guilt for something you had no part in is silly. Acknowledging and not flaunting it around like some sort of achievement is one thing, but personal guilt for something you weren't around for is another.


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#38

Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:51 PM Edited by whatsstrength, 20 November 2013 - 05:51 PM.

Edit - whatstrength - haven't said anything about reparations.

"If you have a leg up in the world today because your ancestors built fortunes ont he backs of slaves, then yes, for f*ck's sake, you owe a debt of gratitude and burden some shame."

and

"But how are we gonna pay back the natives, guys?"


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#39

Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:59 PM Edited by Typhus, 20 November 2013 - 06:00 PM.

Telling white people to be ashamed of their history is the reason why cultural assimilation exists.

If you want to preserve native culture, don't drive people to plunder it by telling them how evil their ancestors were. You can't tell someone to despise their history and then whine when they latch on to other cultures.

You have robbed them of their history, you have robbed them of the right to their own customs, and you begrudge them any heroes they care to find. George Washington? Slave holder. Abe Lincoln? Segregationist. Columbus? Mass murderer.

Stop doing that.

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#40

Posted 20 November 2013 - 06:01 PM

Vly - it's mentalities like that which allow us to turn a blind eye to - or even joke about! - the slave labor used to build our consumables today. We Have to take responsibility. I'll tell you this - and I'm not religious, preface - if there is a heaven, the western world is going to have some 'splainin to do.

Strength - i was assuming you were talking about reparations in the literal sense, IE what the movement is about. Shame and acknowledgement is not reparations. And my facetious comment about natives, to give it some context, wasn't referring to money. How could it?

Typhus - a common theme we've toyed around with the past couple of days is responsibility. Avoiding it, to create some false bravado or pride, isn't the cure you're trying to make it out to be: it's the root cause. This isn't to say we should write people off because of a black mark - that's an absurd hyperbole (sivi might call it a 'slippery slope fallacy')

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#41

Posted 20 November 2013 - 06:47 PM

Warning: post is irrelevant to the OP.

Good song, great band. I remember getting the complete discography for Christmas 9 years ago. sh*t changed my life.


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#42

Posted 20 November 2013 - 07:31 PM Edited by GTA_stu, 20 November 2013 - 07:32 PM.

Hey if the native Americans wanted to trade all their land for a sh*tty bead that was their choice man, a deal's a deal. They were basically like hippies, it was just one giant country of free love and tipis and smoking weird stuff. They shoulda spent less time huffing tobacco and living carefree, and more time developing a sense of ownership and an immunity to smallpox. 

 

It's like the story of the squirrel and the grasshopper, I think that's the one. it's some kind of sh*tty fable I'm thinking of anyways. And the moral of the story is that the squirrel will plunder the grasshopper's land and murder the grasshoppers because the squirrel has a stockpile of nuts and muskets and sh*t. You gotta be prepared, and the native grasshoppers were not. 


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#43

Posted 20 November 2013 - 07:36 PM

Joking aside, I don't think a lot of people understand the scope of the smallpox plague - even far before the first colonies were even settled. It'd be like an alien disease wiping out 95% of the earth's population; they show up a couple decades later and marvel at what pushovers we are.

 

edit - sorry, wasn't smallpox. That was the finisher.

 

http://www.examiner....icans-the-1500s

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#44

Posted 20 November 2013 - 08:07 PM

Bah. All this talk making out like slavery is the worst thing in the world.

 

Fact is, if we still lived in a society where slavery was legal and socially acceptable, I'm sure many of you folks would happily own a person or two.


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#45

Posted 20 November 2013 - 08:19 PM Edited by JustOneMonth, 20 November 2013 - 08:20 PM.

 

If you have a leg up in the world today because your ancestors built fortunes ont he backs of slaves, then yes, for f*ck's sake, you owe a debt of gratitude and burden some shame.

But i think you'll find, whatsstrength, that the OP was specifically speaking about himself. ;) and I think it's awesome. To acknowledge this sh*t is to overcome it.

But how are we gonna pay back the natives, guys? And I'm only being 5% cheeky.

 

Why should you be ashamed of something you had no part in? That's just silly. Even if his family had "built a fortune" he still wouldn't be indebted, he had no say in it, no ability to disapprove, etc.

 

 

This.

Nice to remember L, but no one is guilty because of their color.

Guilty for your line's sins is just silly.

Claiming an entire race as guilty is just moronic too, IMO.

But alright then.


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#46

Posted 20 November 2013 - 08:27 PM

And now for a post that's somewhat relevant to the OP:

 

I feel a certain amount of shame for slavery, the modern social construction of race that began with slavery, the systematic oppression of people of color--which extends to the present day--and the fact that--in some ways--I enjoy the benefits and privileges of living under a white supremacist power structure. This guilt is however, on a very basic level, irrational. I am not responsible for the actions of mass-murderers like Columbus, slave owners like the well-esteemed "Founding Fathers", nor the CIA's COINTELPRO operation, which squashed the Black Panther Party, and went to great lengths to repress Dr. King--amongst other nefarious activities. I did not participate in these atrocities on an individual level, I bear no responsibility for them. The most I can do is create dialogue about these events, and make sure they are never forgotten, as each example is important in understanding the present social and material conditions in the United States--and elsewhere. It's natural to feel a certain amount of shame--sh*t, it shows that you're human--but turn that shame into rage.

 

Personally, I'm more ashamed of what white people have generally become in more recent years. Sure, racial prejudice never went away, systematic racism never went away, but casual racism seems to have become more common in recent years than I remember. The election of Obama, for example, caused great hysteria amongst many white folks, regardless of class, regardless of their relation to the means of production. There was plenty of talk of "lynching", foiled assassination plots, and to this day people refer to Obama as a "monkey", a "baboon", a "ni**er", the list goes on. I even remember hearing about some local middle school--with a white student population upwards of 90% at least--where the students staged anti-Obama "protests" during recess, parroting the racist language used by their wealthy parents.Don't get me wrong, I'm not a democrat, I'm not a liberal, nor an Obama supporter--I have literally no interest in the spectacle that is bourgeois politics--but there's clearly a difference between saying: "this president has class interests that are quite distinct from my own, and I feel he is a continuation of the Bush administration and it's policies" than "let me see this Kenyan's birth dertificate".

 

And then the Trayvon Martin murder makes the headlines, and the all-too-depressing notion that the victim is to blame for what has happened to them comes into play. One word was repeatedly used in the media to describe Trayvon: "Thug". Never did they attempt to understand why, as a black man living in the United States, that he would feel his life was in danger when someone who appeared "white", began following him around a neighborhood he wasn't too familiar with. Instead, let's focus on the fact that he had smoked cannabis, let's focus on the fact that he referred to Zimmerman as a "creepy-ass cracker"--as if Zimmerman isn't--and let's mention how he was suspended from school, as if any of that is relevant to what took place that night. The media's depiction of the events played right into the hands of white racists. I can't even count how many times I read that Zimmerman was defending himself from "Trayboon". The thought honestly makes me sick to my stomach.

 

Basically, it's been what, 50 years since MLK's "I have a dream" speech, and white people are--generally speaking--still a f*cking disgrace. Still they perpetuate the same superficial divisions, still they casually use racial slurs, still they make disparaging comments, still the cycle continues. Casual, individual-level racism seems to have taken a new turn. Now it's whites who accuse others of being "racist" towards them for pointing out, and challenging the privileges only white people enjoy. To many airheads, there is an "anti-white agenda", which is more-or-less summed up by the white nationalist mantra of "anti-racism is a code-word of anti-white". Many white racists have adopted a victim-mentality, and fear whites will become a minority due to what they believe is a deliberate campaign to "destroy the white race". The irony is that, in their fear of being a "minority", they've forgotten why such a social position is negative in the first place: because the interests of the racial majority--regardless of class--come before the interests of minorities. Basically, they fear that white people will be treated as people of color have been historically, but they do not acknowledge systematic racism as a real, living, breathing entity that affects people of color daily. No, they're the victims.


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#47

Posted 20 November 2013 - 08:29 PM

Bah. All this talk making out like slavery is the worst thing in the world.

 

Fact is, if we still lived in a society where slavery was legal and socially acceptable, I'm sure many of you folks would happily own a person or two.

That statement is irrelevant. You can say that about almost anything:

ah uh ah uh ey ey if rape and murder were condoned by society and it was morally OKYDOKY and righteous then ah uh ah uh i'm sure a lot of folk would rape and murder a broad or two ah uh ah uh

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#48

Posted 20 November 2013 - 08:42 PM

Bah. All this talk making out like slavery is the worst thing in the world.

 

Fact is, if we still lived in a society where slavery was legal and socially acceptable, I'm sure many of you folks would happily own a person or two.

 

Yeah! I mean, if something bad was happening in the world we'd all be a part of it. The spirit of the times and all that, right? I mean, we're both good people but you know that you would own a few, and I would own a few, because if society makes it legal then there's no boundary to what the both of us are willing to do, right? 

 

Thankfully we live in a society where such things doesn't happen though, right? Imagine if we lived in a world where people could systematically oppress others based on their ethnic, political or sexual identities? Everyone would just go along with it because it was legal. It's good to live in a world where our lawmakers have legislation in place to defer us from such horrible human nature, where we would inadvertently harm others because -- hey, it's legal.  


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#49

Posted 20 November 2013 - 08:44 PM

Each person can only be responsible for what THEY do. In other words.. You shouldn't hold a burden of someone else's experience.


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#50

Posted 20 November 2013 - 08:44 PM

Bah. All this talk making out like slavery is the worst thing in the world.

 

Fact is, if we still lived in a society where slavery was legal and socially acceptable, I'm sure many of you folks would happily own a person or two.

How can you 'own' a person, though? The idea is preposterous.


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#51

Posted 20 November 2013 - 08:59 PM

 Imagine if we lived in a world where people could systematically oppress others based on their ethnic, political or sexual identities? 

We do, it's called capitalism.


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#52

Posted 20 November 2013 - 09:02 PM Edited by haythem09, 20 November 2013 - 09:05 PM.

 

 

Guilt is a useless emotion and you should do away with it.

Why do you keep trying to be such a robotic shell of a man? Greek philosophy is boring and black and white; aesthetically appealing to the 'intellectual' but ultimately unsatisfactory to any sane human being.

I don't get why people are trying so hard to get rid of their humanity. Good luck living your life and trying to live without guilt. You'll probably turn into a complete deranged sociopath.

 

Some emotions like guilt and worry are not only useless, but they are also harmful to the person and therefore we should not pay attention to them. A rational person can find a way to deal with a situation, whether that means to actually solve what can be solved or accept that there is no solution. That's how you deal with things. Feeling guilty or worrying doesn't do anything good for you or others. While those feelings can be a reminder of your current situation and the fact that it may need your attention, you also have a rational side that can deal with things more efficiently.

 

I'll think you'll find not a single emotion we have is useless. Evolution doesn't just randomly give you complex emotions in the brain for no reason whatsoever. Controlling your emotions is something that can help everyone though, because while all emotions have their use, they do have cons and when put to the extreme can have negative effects (Anger - Rage. Fear - Panic etc)

 

To be honest not a single thing you really said was about Guilt, but about worry/fear. Who says I can't keep think properly when in fear/worry? But If someone doesn't control it - Panic. And Panic is bad.


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#53

Posted 20 November 2013 - 09:59 PM

Eh, rather hear a speech from JFK or something.. now that man knew what he was talking about!


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#54

Posted 20 November 2013 - 10:17 PM

 

Bah. All this talk making out like slavery is the worst thing in the world.

 

Fact is, if we still lived in a society where slavery was legal and socially acceptable, I'm sure many of you folks would happily own a person or two.

How can you 'own' a person, though? The idea is preposterous.

 

It's no more preposterous than owning anything else.


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#55

Posted 20 November 2013 - 10:42 PM

 

 

Bah. All this talk making out like slavery is the worst thing in the world.

 

Fact is, if we still lived in a society where slavery was legal and socially acceptable, I'm sure many of you folks would happily own a person or two.

How can you 'own' a person, though? The idea is preposterous.

 

It's no more preposterous than owning anything else.

 

 

 

 

Bah. All this talk making out like slavery is the worst thing in the world.

 

Fact is, if we still lived in a society where slavery was legal and socially acceptable, I'm sure many of you folks would happily own a person or two.

That statement is irrelevant. You can say that about almost anything:

ah uh ah uh ey ey if rape and murder were condoned by society and it was morally OKYDOKY and righteous then ah uh ah uh i'm sure a lot of folk would rape and murder a broad or two ah uh ah uh

 

Off-topic but

Lol Nale Dixson and Dale Nixson.


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#56

Posted 20 November 2013 - 10:55 PM

 

 

Bah. All this talk making out like slavery is the worst thing in the world.

 

Fact is, if we still lived in a society where slavery was legal and socially acceptable, I'm sure many of you folks would happily own a person or two.

How can you 'own' a person, though? The idea is preposterous.

 

It's no more preposterous than owning anything else.

 

I would like this if I coukd.





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