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The Aspects of Society Held in the Highest Regard are Forms of Slavery

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sivispacem
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#31

Posted 04 November 2013 - 10:48 AM


 

 

 

Without education you become a brainless machine easily manipulable.

I guess this is why you must work under others to serve others. I guess this is why you must pay taxes to support your own supervision and control.
 
Well, I guess that's why fanaticisms, especially mention to the religious one, spread easier between poor uneducated people. Or dicatorships, or even "democratic" governments have less oposition between that people without education and knowledge around their history and social and politic enviroment. Same goes for the labor exploitation.
 
Taxes are part of what the  model of society I guess you live in needs to work. How else would the roads, public services you use be maintained?
 
If you don't like taxes, government, school, etc. I recommend you to go to some place without any kind of government, like Somalia, and tell us if things are better that way.
But roads, public services, school, etc., are not actually necessary. It is part of our self-imposed slavery as I mentioned in my original post. We weren't happy with things originally and now we're in an even bigger mess. And we're not even that much happier.
 
So I guess what you are seeking is a primitive society, right?
Not for others.

It's strange one can't even express their views without others thinking they wish to implement these lifestyles upon the populous.
It's strange how people like to claim they're truth defined when producing theories which are inherently contradictory and illogical, then have the audacity to plead the "opinion trampled" defence when someone clearly endowed with superior reasoning picks their argument to pieces.

For someone claiming they're speaking the truth you sure are keen to try and prevent critique of your hypotheses. Perhaps because they're very poorly formed and contradictory?
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hflgk
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#32

Posted 04 November 2013 - 10:50 AM

But who wouldn't want luxuries? I am glad that we have nice couches, television, mobile phones, smart phones, refrigeration units, houses, convenient structures that provide all sorts of luxuries, cars, bikes, motorbikes, roads, all of that. If you don't want those things, why don't you just purchase a large block of land in the middle of nowhere and remove all utilities, and live there on the land with nothing but you and your life. You may live as a caveman if you wish. I'll stay here with my iphone.

And this is your self-imposed imprisonment mentioned in the original post.

By the way, good workers in China work so hard making our iPhones, that they leap to their death. The factories actually installed suicide nets. Those Chinese are good workers.

http://www.dailymail...-1-12-hour.html

F4L?
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#33

Posted 04 November 2013 - 10:51 AM

 

It's strange one can't even express their views without others thinking they wish to implement these lifestyles upon the populous.

Wait so you just wanted to hit us with some 'truth' and then didn't expect us to call you on it or question your reasoning? We're not worried that you're about to smash the system, but you opened a debate.

 

Classic conspiracy theorist type. Calls others out for their opinion, then gets upset when his own opinion is questioned in a topic he obviously made for discussion.

What the f*ck did you expect? That we'd all bob our heads and elect you the new King and shout Viva La Revolution from the rooftops as we tossed out iphones and televisions into a large burning pile? 
Sorry, not how it goes down.


hflgk
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#34

Posted 04 November 2013 - 10:54 AM


 

 

 

Without education you become a brainless machine easily manipulable.

I guess this is why you must work under others to serve others. I guess this is why you must pay taxes to support your own supervision and control.
 
Well, I guess that's why fanaticisms, especially mention to the religious one, spread easier between poor uneducated people. Or dicatorships, or even "democratic" governments have less oposition between that people without education and knowledge around their history and social and politic enviroment. Same goes for the labor exploitation.
 
Taxes are part of what the  model of society I guess you live in needs to work. How else would the roads, public services you use be maintained?
 
If you don't like taxes, government, school, etc. I recommend you to go to some place without any kind of government, like Somalia, and tell us if things are better that way.
But roads, public services, school, etc., are not actually necessary. It is part of our self-imposed slavery as I mentioned in my original post. We weren't happy with things originally and now we're in an even bigger mess. And we're not even that much happier.
 
So I guess what you are seeking is a primitive society, right?
Not for others.

It's strange one can't even express their views without others thinking they wish to implement these lifestyles upon the populous.
It's strange how people like to claim they're truth defined when producing theories which are inherently contradictory and illogical, then have the audacity to plead the "opinion trampled" defence when someone clearly endowed with superior reasoning picks their argument to pieces.

For someone claiming they're speaking the truth you sure are keen to try and prevent critique of your hypotheses. Perhaps because they're very poorly formed and contradictory?
Not at all. I am not discouraging argument, and I am working on addressing the other posts.

I simply meant to say that I'm not trying to make people live any certain way.

F4L?
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#35

Posted 04 November 2013 - 10:58 AM Edited by F4L?, 04 November 2013 - 10:59 AM.

 

But who wouldn't want luxuries? I am glad that we have nice couches, television, mobile phones, smart phones, refrigeration units, houses, convenient structures that provide all sorts of luxuries, cars, bikes, motorbikes, roads, all of that. If you don't want those things, why don't you just purchase a large block of land in the middle of nowhere and remove all utilities, and live there on the land with nothing but you and your life. You may live as a caveman if you wish. I'll stay here with my iphone.

And this is your self-imposed imprisonment mentioned in the original post.

By the way, good workers in China work so hard making our iPhones, that they leap to their death. The factories actually installed suicide nets. Those Chinese are good workers.

http://www.dailymail...-1-12-hour.html

 

Okay fine, i'll give all that up and where will I be? In a cave in the middle of nowhere in the wilderness, an ideal place for a human being following your train of thought.

Please explain to me how willingly living in a cave struggling to survive due to minimal food and water is not self-imposed imprisonment?

Also, are you not also using the internet in a home somewhere within a city? Are you not being also being provided with electricity and water? You too are imposing imprisonment on yourself, if we are so foolish for doing so, why are you too doing it? That seems rather contradictory like pretty much every-thing else you have said so far. 


Vlynor
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#36

Posted 04 November 2013 - 10:59 AM Edited by Vlynor, 04 November 2013 - 11:01 AM.

 

But who wouldn't want luxuries? I am glad that we have nice couches, television, mobile phones, smart phones, refrigeration units, houses, convenient structures that provide all sorts of luxuries, cars, bikes, motorbikes, roads, all of that. If you don't want those things, why don't you just purchase a large block of land in the middle of nowhere and remove all utilities, and live there on the land with nothing but you and your life. You may live as a caveman if you wish. I'll stay here with my iphone.

And this is your self-imposed imprisonment mentioned in the original post.

By the way, good workers in China work so hard making our iPhones, that they leap to their death. The factories actually installed suicide nets. Those Chinese are good workers.

http://www.dailymail...-1-12-hour.html

 

 

That's actually not bad money for New Taipei City, while it sounds like it compared to American minimum wage and British minimum wage, 1.12 GBP is almost enough for a meal there. Seeing as how they work for 10 hours a day, that's about enough for 6 meals. If they're able to feed themselves and have money left over, I wouldn't call that a bad deal.


hflgk
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#37

Posted 04 November 2013 - 10:59 AM


 


It's strange one can't even express their views without others thinking they wish to implement these lifestyles upon the populous.

Wait so you just wanted to hit us with some 'truth' and then didn't expect us to call you on it or question your reasoning? We're not worried that you're about to smash the system, but you opened a debate.
 
Classic conspiracy theorist type. Calls others out for their opinion, then gets upset when his own opinion is questioned in a topic he obviously made for discussion.

What the f*ck did you expect? That we'd all bob our heads and elect you the new King and shout Viva La Revolution from the rooftops as we tossed out iphones and televisions into a large burning pile? 
Sorry, not how it goes down.
Nope. And actually, I reject most of the now-mainstream conspiracy theories.

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#38

Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:01 AM


 

But who wouldn't want luxuries? I am glad that we have nice couches, television, mobile phones, smart phones, refrigeration units, houses, convenient structures that provide all sorts of luxuries, cars, bikes, motorbikes, roads, all of that. If you don't want those things, why don't you just purchase a large block of land in the middle of nowhere and remove all utilities, and live there on the land with nothing but you and your life. You may live as a caveman if you wish. I'll stay here with my iphone.

And this is your self-imposed imprisonment mentioned in the original post.

By the way, good workers in China work so hard making our iPhones, that they leap to their death. The factories actually installed suicide nets. Those Chinese are good workers.

http://www.dailymail...-1-12-hour.html
 
 
That's actually not bad money for New Taipei City, while it sounds like it compared to American minimum wage and British minimum wage, 1.12 GBP is almost enough for a meal there. Seeing as how they work for 10 hours a day, that's about enough for 6 meals. If they're able to feed themselves and have money left over, I wouldn't call those extremely bad working conditions.
Yeah, about enough.

I guess you wouldn't have a problem implementing a similar system where you live?

sivispacem
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#39

Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:08 AM


 

 

 

Without education you become a brainless machine easily manipulable.

I guess this is why you must work under others to serve others. I guess this is why you must pay taxes to support your own supervision and control.
 
Well, I guess that's why fanaticisms, especially mention to the religious one, spread easier between poor uneducated people. Or dicatorships, or even "democratic" governments have less oposition between that people without education and knowledge around their history and social and politic enviroment. Same goes for the labor exploitation.
 
Taxes are part of what the  model of society I guess you live in needs to work. How else would the roads, public services you use be maintained?
 
If you don't like taxes, government, school, etc. I recommend you to go to some place without any kind of government, like Somalia, and tell us if things are better that way.
But roads, public services, school, etc., are not actually necessary. It is part of our self-imposed slavery as I mentioned in my original post. We weren't happy with things originally and now we're in an even bigger mess. And we're not even that much happier.
 
So I guess what you are seeking is a primitive society, right?
Not for others.

It's strange one can't even express their views without others thinking they wish to implement these lifestyles upon the populous.
It's strange how people like to claim they're truth defined when producing theories which are inherently contradictory and illogical, then have the audacity to plead the "opinion trampled" defence when someone clearly endowed with superior reasoning picks their argument to pieces.

For someone claiming they're speaking the truth you sure are keen to try and prevent critique of your hypotheses. Perhaps because they're very poorly formed and contradictory?
Not at all. I am not discouraging argument, and I am working on addressing the other posts.

I simply meant to say that I'm not trying to make people live any certain way.

Not in as many words, no. You prefer instead to imply that you're somehow intellectually superior without quantifying it (fallacious) yet effectively deride knowledge and understanding (hypocritical given your implied superiority), make arguments based on solipsist logic (philosophically indefensible) and imply that anyone who disagrees with your poorly formulated views is under the thumb of a malevolent higher authority and therefore not entitled to dispute your analysis (poisoning the well). It would be hard to construct a more logically flawed argument if you were actively trying.

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#40

Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:08 AM

Education is a wonderful thing. I think it's so lovely that no matter what we think we know, the truth is that there is still a wealth of knowledge out there we have yet to discover, new ideas, belief systems, new creatures hiding in some corner of the world we've not yet discovered.

I believe learning has always been a form of liberation, both in terms of engendering the working classes with more self awareness and assertion of their rights and in regards to people simply discovering who they are and finding their own path in life.

 

Education doesn't make slaves of men, if anything is to blame for that, I believe it to be gender roles - all passed like a virulent disease by parents who want their girls to look pretty and their boys to mindlessly play sports, this is carried over into later life, with men eschewing knowledge in favour of physical superiority and women becoming dependent on men to validate their insecurity in their physical appearance.

If anything, a greater emphasis on the value of education - not practical education like 'learning a trade', but more in the way of philosophy - will lead to future generations becoming more separated from these absurd parts that were written for them. 

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hflgk
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#41

Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:09 AM


 

But who wouldn't want luxuries? I am glad that we have nice couches, television, mobile phones, smart phones, refrigeration units, houses, convenient structures that provide all sorts of luxuries, cars, bikes, motorbikes, roads, all of that. If you don't want those things, why don't you just purchase a large block of land in the middle of nowhere and remove all utilities, and live there on the land with nothing but you and your life. You may live as a caveman if you wish. I'll stay here with my iphone.

And this is your self-imposed imprisonment mentioned in the original post.

By the way, good workers in China work so hard making our iPhones, that they leap to their death. The factories actually installed suicide nets. Those Chinese are good workers.

http://www.dailymail...-1-12-hour.html
 
Okay fine, i'll give all that up and where will I be? In a cave in the middle of nowhere in the wilderness, an ideal place for a human being following your train of thought.

Please explain to me how willingly living in a cave struggling to survive due to minimal food and water is not self-imposed imprisonment?

Also, are you not also using the internet in a home somewhere within a city? Are you not being also being provided with electricity and water? You too are imposing imprisonment on yourself, if we are so foolish for doing so, why are you too doing it? That seems rather contradictory like pretty much every-thing else you have said so far. 
Hence, I say "we". I am not excluded.

Again, I'm not asking (or trying to influence) you to do anything. I'm just expressing and discussing views.

If the "caveman" lifestyle wasn't a problem to begin with, then would have all these other artificial expectations come about?

Look at all the "improvements" we have made. And people want better. They aren't necessarily any happier. For example, GTA V just came out yet gamers can't wait for VI because they want better. Or more. One small example. We aren't happy with what we have. Will we ever be?

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#42

Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:11 AM

 

 

 

But who wouldn't want luxuries? I am glad that we have nice couches, television, mobile phones, smart phones, refrigeration units, houses, convenient structures that provide all sorts of luxuries, cars, bikes, motorbikes, roads, all of that. If you don't want those things, why don't you just purchase a large block of land in the middle of nowhere and remove all utilities, and live there on the land with nothing but you and your life. You may live as a caveman if you wish. I'll stay here with my iphone.

And this is your self-imposed imprisonment mentioned in the original post.

By the way, good workers in China work so hard making our iPhones, that they leap to their death. The factories actually installed suicide nets. Those Chinese are good workers.

http://www.dailymail...-1-12-hour.html
 
 
That's actually not bad money for New Taipei City, while it sounds like it compared to American minimum wage and British minimum wage, 1.12 GBP is almost enough for a meal there. Seeing as how they work for 10 hours a day, that's about enough for 6 meals. If they're able to feed themselves and have money left over, I wouldn't call those extremely bad working conditions.
Yeah, about enough.

I guess you wouldn't have a problem implementing a similar system where you live?

 

I'd prefer it be done on a national scale if at all. It works in New Taiwan City because their cost of living is lower. Sure, a bit more pay would be nice, but they're also working in a factory so high pay isn't expected.


hflgk
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#43

Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:12 AM


 

 

 

Without education you become a brainless machine easily manipulable.

I guess this is why you must work under others to serve others. I guess this is why you must pay taxes to support your own supervision and control.
 
Well, I guess that's why fanaticisms, especially mention to the religious one, spread easier between poor uneducated people. Or dicatorships, or even "democratic" governments have less oposition between that people without education and knowledge around their history and social and politic enviroment. Same goes for the labor exploitation.
 
Taxes are part of what the  model of society I guess you live in needs to work. How else would the roads, public services you use be maintained?
 
If you don't like taxes, government, school, etc. I recommend you to go to some place without any kind of government, like Somalia, and tell us if things are better that way.
But roads, public services, school, etc., are not actually necessary. It is part of our self-imposed slavery as I mentioned in my original post. We weren't happy with things originally and now we're in an even bigger mess. And we're not even that much happier.
 
So I guess what you are seeking is a primitive society, right?
Not for others.

It's strange one can't even express their views without others thinking they wish to implement these lifestyles upon the populous.
It's strange how people like to claim they're truth defined when producing theories which are inherently contradictory and illogical, then have the audacity to plead the "opinion trampled" defence when someone clearly endowed with superior reasoning picks their argument to pieces.

For someone claiming they're speaking the truth you sure are keen to try and prevent critique of your hypotheses. Perhaps because they're very poorly formed and contradictory?
Not at all. I am not discouraging argument, and I am working on addressing the other posts.

I simply meant to say that I'm not trying to make people live any certain way.
Not in as many words, no. You prefer instead to imply that you're somehow intellectually superior without quantifying it (fallacious) yet effectively deride knowledge and understanding (hypocritical given your implied superiority), make arguments based on solipsist logic (philosophically indefensible) and imply that anyone who disagrees with your poorly formulated views is under the thumb of a malevolent higher authority and therefore not entitled to dispute your analysis (poisoning the well). It would be hard to construct a more logically flawed argument if you were actively trying.
Intellectually superior? How have I implied this? By expressing views?

Actually, others here have already asserted their intellectual superiority. And pointed out my fallacious, contradictory points. But I'm the hypocrite.

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#44

Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:17 AM


 

 

 

But who wouldn't want luxuries? I am glad that we have nice couches, television, mobile phones, smart phones, refrigeration units, houses, convenient structures that provide all sorts of luxuries, cars, bikes, motorbikes, roads, all of that. If you don't want those things, why don't you just purchase a large block of land in the middle of nowhere and remove all utilities, and live there on the land with nothing but you and your life. You may live as a caveman if you wish. I'll stay here with my iphone.

And this is your self-imposed imprisonment mentioned in the original post.

By the way, good workers in China work so hard making our iPhones, that they leap to their death. The factories actually installed suicide nets. Those Chinese are good workers.

http://www.dailymail...-1-12-hour.html
 
 
That's actually not bad money for New Taipei City, while it sounds like it compared to American minimum wage and British minimum wage, 1.12 GBP is almost enough for a meal there. Seeing as how they work for 10 hours a day, that's about enough for 6 meals. If they're able to feed themselves and have money left over, I wouldn't call those extremely bad working conditions.
Yeah, about enough.

I guess you wouldn't have a problem implementing a similar system where you live?
 
I'd prefer it be done on a national scale if at all. It works in New Taiwan City because their cost of living is lower. Sure, a bit more pay would be nice, but they're also working in a factory so high pay isn't expected.
Then let's string up the nets.

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#45

Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:20 AM Edited by Vlynor, 04 November 2013 - 11:20 AM.

 

 

 

 

 

But who wouldn't want luxuries? I am glad that we have nice couches, television, mobile phones, smart phones, refrigeration units, houses, convenient structures that provide all sorts of luxuries, cars, bikes, motorbikes, roads, all of that. If you don't want those things, why don't you just purchase a large block of land in the middle of nowhere and remove all utilities, and live there on the land with nothing but you and your life. You may live as a caveman if you wish. I'll stay here with my iphone.

And this is your self-imposed imprisonment mentioned in the original post.

By the way, good workers in China work so hard making our iPhones, that they leap to their death. The factories actually installed suicide nets. Those Chinese are good workers.

http://www.dailymail...-1-12-hour.html
 
 
That's actually not bad money for New Taipei City, while it sounds like it compared to American minimum wage and British minimum wage, 1.12 GBP is almost enough for a meal there. Seeing as how they work for 10 hours a day, that's about enough for 6 meals. If they're able to feed themselves and have money left over, I wouldn't call those extremely bad working conditions.
Yeah, about enough.

I guess you wouldn't have a problem implementing a similar system where you live?
 
I'd prefer it be done on a national scale if at all. It works in New Taiwan City because their cost of living is lower. Sure, a bit more pay would be nice, but they're also working in a factory so high pay isn't expected.
Then let's string up the nets.

 

 

People already kill themselves because of their jobs here, and they have cushy office ones. In 2008 when the markets crashed rich guys were killing themselves left and right, meanwhile, they probably could've still lived, just not as comfortably.


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#46

Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:22 AM Edited by Melchior, 04 November 2013 - 11:23 AM.

This may sound terribly intellectual but the only feeble examples you give are marriage, and work, which are not the be all and end all of highly regarded social undertakings

Wait, what? Your job and relationship are more less the defining aspects of your character, as far as other people are concerned.

 

He may have expressed it in a terribly garbbled- not to mention sexist- manner, but he does have a point. The way society treats love, as the light at the end of the tunnel in a life of banality, stress and lack of control, is somewhat similar to the "work all the time now, have fun in heaven" tripe that was fed to workers during the Industrial Revolution. Our society's idea of love and marriage, and how it is fed to people, is a form of indoctrination. Why else would marriage have such an overbearing air of materialism too it? Even working mothers from high-earning households want massive houses, in the locations arbitrarily assigned connotation of status, and huge, pointless SUVs just to go to the mall.

 

You'd have to be crazy to deny that our society tells men "work really hard and get the best job possible, suck up to your boss and keep your head down, because love is all that matters and no woman will love you if you can't buy her four SUVs and McMansion."

 

 

 

 In fact, rather damingly for your argument many students are foregoing industrially useful classes such as mathematics, physics and chemistry. If industrialists had such a tight control on society and education wouldn't they ensure they had enough correctly educated slaves?    

That's because the system 1) is nowhere near as obvious, consciously-imposed and dramatic as the OP is making it out to be and 2) standardised to accommodate a broad range of students with differing ability, background and ambition. But the school system definitely has a huge focus on conformity over actual learning. Which is why you don't see kids in their final year of high school saying "yeah I go to school to learn about a broad range of topics to enrich my understanding of the world" instead they're more like "I go to school to memorise the material so I can get good marks on some test so I don't wind up flipping burgers."

 

And I'm sure there's some level of conscious imposition which is ideological in nature. Otherwise I think we'd favour progressive education over stringent memorisation and training kids to conform with praise and scolding. Chomsky puts it well:

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=pFf6_0T2ZoI

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sivispacem
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#47

Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:23 AM


 

 

 

Without education you become a brainless machine easily manipulable.

I guess this is why you must work under others to serve others. I guess this is why you must pay taxes to support your own supervision and control.
 
Well, I guess that's why fanaticisms, especially mention to the religious one, spread easier between poor uneducated people. Or dicatorships, or even "democratic" governments have less oposition between that people without education and knowledge around their history and social and politic enviroment. Same goes for the labor exploitation.
 
Taxes are part of what the  model of society I guess you live in needs to work. How else would the roads, public services you use be maintained?
 
If you don't like taxes, government, school, etc. I recommend you to go to some place without any kind of government, like Somalia, and tell us if things are better that way.
But roads, public services, school, etc., are not actually necessary. It is part of our self-imposed slavery as I mentioned in my original post. We weren't happy with things originally and now we're in an even bigger mess. And we're not even that much happier.
 
So I guess what you are seeking is a primitive society, right?
Not for others.

It's strange one can't even express their views without others thinking they wish to implement these lifestyles upon the populous.
It's strange how people like to claim they're truth defined when producing theories which are inherently contradictory and illogical, then have the audacity to plead the "opinion trampled" defence when someone clearly endowed with superior reasoning picks their argument to pieces.

For someone claiming they're speaking the truth you sure are keen to try and prevent critique of your hypotheses. Perhaps because they're very poorly formed and contradictory?
Not at all. I am not discouraging argument, and I am working on addressing the other posts.

I simply meant to say that I'm not trying to make people live any certain way.
Not in as many words, no. You prefer instead to imply that you're somehow intellectually superior without quantifying it (fallacious) yet effectively deride knowledge and understanding (hypocritical given your implied superiority), make arguments based on solipsist logic (philosophically indefensible) and imply that anyone who disagrees with your poorly formulated views is under the thumb of a malevolent higher authority and therefore not entitled to dispute your analysis (poisoning the well). It would be hard to construct a more logically flawed argument if you were actively trying.
Intellectually superior? How have I implied this? By expressing views?

Actually, others here have already asserted their intellectual superiority. And pointed out my fallacious, contradictory points. But I'm the hypocrite.

By claiming your subjective opinion is "truth", for one. By failing of substantiate any of your hypotheses in a meaningful way. By resorting to logical fallacies, and generalising from made-up evidence.

Yes, you are the hypocrite. Other people have allowed their intelligence and knowledge to be seen in the quality of their responses. If you interpret this as them demonstrating intellectual superiority then that says q great deal more about your perception of your own intellect than it does about their actions.

At least none of them started their response with an overt statement claiming everything they said was factual and without flaw.

Vlynor
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#48

Posted 04 November 2013 - 11:24 AM

By claiming your subjective opinion is "truth", for one. By failing of substantiate any of your hypotheses in a meaningful way. By resorting to logical fallacies, and generalising from made-up evidence.

Yes, you are the hypocrite. Other people have allowed their intelligence and knowledge to be seen in the quality of their responses. If you interpret this as them demonstrating intellectual superiority then that says q great deal more about your perception of your own intellect than it does about their actions.

At least none of them started their response with an overt statement claiming everything they said was factual and without flaw.

 

I thought that was implied with everything I said. Damn.


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#49

Posted 04 November 2013 - 12:00 PM


 

 

 

 

 

But who wouldn't want luxuries? I am glad that we have nice couches, television, mobile phones, smart phones, refrigeration units, houses, convenient structures that provide all sorts of luxuries, cars, bikes, motorbikes, roads, all of that. If you don't want those things, why don't you just purchase a large block of land in the middle of nowhere and remove all utilities, and live there on the land with nothing but you and your life. You may live as a caveman if you wish. I'll stay here with my iphone.

And this is your self-imposed imprisonment mentioned in the original post.

By the way, good workers in China work so hard making our iPhones, that they leap to their death. The factories actually installed suicide nets. Those Chinese are good workers.

http://www.dailymail...-1-12-hour.html
 
 
That's actually not bad money for New Taipei City, while it sounds like it compared to American minimum wage and British minimum wage, 1.12 GBP is almost enough for a meal there. Seeing as how they work for 10 hours a day, that's about enough for 6 meals. If they're able to feed themselves and have money left over, I wouldn't call those extremely bad working conditions.
Yeah, about enough.

I guess you wouldn't have a problem implementing a similar system where you live?
 
I'd prefer it be done on a national scale if at all. It works in New Taiwan City because their cost of living is lower. Sure, a bit more pay would be nice, but they're also working in a factory so high pay isn't expected.
Then let's string up the nets.
 
 
People already kill themselves because of their jobs here, and they have cushy office ones. In 2008 when the markets crashed rich guys were killing themselves left and right, meanwhile, they probably could've still lived, just not as comfortably.
Interesting point. Think about it.

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#50

Posted 04 November 2013 - 12:04 PM Edited by hflgk, 04 November 2013 - 12:09 PM.

Right off the bat your argument opens itself to criticism when you warn us all of impending truth, and then fail to back up your argument with a single credible source or academic theory.
 
This may sound terribly intellectual but the only feeble examples you give are marriage, and work, which are not the be all and end all of highly regarded social undertakings. What about art? Literature? How are these forms of slavery? Furthermore, you create something of a contradiction for your later argument by asserting that this slavery is self-imposed, and then going on to blame 'rich people' for it. Are we forced into unwitting slavery or do we impose it upon ourselves? 
 
Of course you are forced to go to school when you're young. The alternative is a horde of illiterate man-children incapable of formulating and communicating basic thoughts and emotions. The key is that it is your parents, not some industrialist slave driver making this choice for you. And it is natural and right that responsible parents encourage their children to get an education, we instinctively try and ensure the success of our offspring and now that society has (largely) moved on from bludgeoning each other with blunt objects a good strategy for the success of your progeny is to ensure that they are smart. 

Complete bollocks. If this was the case the education system would be stripped down to basic reading, writing and mathematics before all the 11 year olds moved onto classes in operating heavy machinery, correctly inputting data to Microsoft E[size=4]xcel and how to lay bricks. Instead, education offers the chance for a child to pursue a myriad of subjects which broaden their mind and allow them to engage in critical thinking, which is sort of what you're attempting to do. The problem with school choice is, that many children are not taking certain classes which has a significant effect on their future (http://eric.ed.gov/?id=ED414628). In fact, rather damingly for your argument many students are foregoing industrially useful classes such as mathematics, physics and chemistry. If industrialists had such a tight control on society and education wouldn't they ensure they had enough correctly educated slaves?

I'll have to break this up into two parts.


First, the "warning" statement was a bit of a joke. I knew a post of this nature would receive significant rebuttal and argument. And it has. Truth hurts. Then people get mad. Maybe I should have put a smiley face next to it.

Of course.. one must reference some academic theory or their point is invalid. Those colleges have to make money some way. So they propagate the idea that they possess all the right knowledge. As pointed out in my original post.

I discussed only work/marriage/education because I didn't want to type a novella-length document.

I did not entirely blame rich people. I blamed humans in general. For our greed and need of constant improvement.

Parents do not decide whether their child attends school or not. The government does. This is why parents go to court for truancy. Society is now so complex, the actual parents can't even teach the children without a degree. School does not simply teach reading, writing and arithmetic. It also conditions the students for performance in the collective, or society. Remember, antisocial behavior isn't encouraged in our society. Some even consider it unhealthy.

Actually, humans fight now more than ever. We have divisions of society dedicated especially to war. Plus humanity just perservered through two, not one, World Wars. Plus most entertainment revolves around violence. Violence will always exist. Unless we are controlled even more.

Sure, education has some perks, but its main purpose is to sustain and improve established society. Look around. Get a good education to get a good job.

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#51

Posted 04 November 2013 - 12:07 PM Edited by F4L?, 04 November 2013 - 12:07 PM.

 

 

 

But who wouldn't want luxuries? I am glad that we have nice couches, television, mobile phones, smart phones, refrigeration units, houses, convenient structures that provide all sorts of luxuries, cars, bikes, motorbikes, roads, all of that. If you don't want those things, why don't you just purchase a large block of land in the middle of nowhere and remove all utilities, and live there on the land with nothing but you and your life. You may live as a caveman if you wish. I'll stay here with my iphone.

And this is your self-imposed imprisonment mentioned in the original post.

By the way, good workers in China work so hard making our iPhones, that they leap to their death. The factories actually installed suicide nets. Those Chinese are good workers.

http://www.dailymail...-1-12-hour.html
 
Okay fine, i'll give all that up and where will I be? In a cave in the middle of nowhere in the wilderness, an ideal place for a human being following your train of thought.

Please explain to me how willingly living in a cave struggling to survive due to minimal food and water is not self-imposed imprisonment?

Also, are you not also using the internet in a home somewhere within a city? Are you not being also being provided with electricity and water? You too are imposing imprisonment on yourself, if we are so foolish for doing so, why are you too doing it? That seems rather contradictory like pretty much every-thing else you have said so far. 
Hence, I say "we". I am not excluded.

Again, I'm not asking (or trying to influence) you to do anything. I'm just expressing and discussing views.

If the "caveman" lifestyle wasn't a problem to begin with, then would have all these other artificial expectations come about?

Look at all the "improvements" we have made. And people want better. They aren't necessarily any happier. For example, GTA V just came out yet gamers can't wait for VI because they want better. Or more. One small example. We aren't happy with what we have. Will we ever be?

 

Okay, you've said luxuries imprison us, but not having luxuries is also not desirable, so what are we actually discussing here? That man can never be satisfied? That's just our nature, we've evolved to adapt, and we do it quickly, we get used to having things so fast that it will never be enough, ever which means we need to keep improving, which means we need to keep education in place so people can learn how to work for the industry so the industry can continue making advancements.

You've said education is simply to provide workers for the industry, this is true to a point, but then those workers can climb the ladder, and then the people below them can continue to do so, it's a continuous cycle, and there always has to be someone on the bottom rung, it doesn't matter if we abolish society as we know it and every technological advancement on the planet, there will always be a social hierarchy, and if it isn't making iphones in a Chinese factory then it will be collecting sticks so some dominant male can create weapons with it to hunt animals and protect the tribe.
The only way there wouldn't be a heirarchy is if everyone became communists, a few people have mentioned this already, but unfortunately that doesn't work, and it never will, because there always has to be someone at the top coordinating things, and there are some people who are more talented than others, perhaps some people can't make the weapons because they lack the skill, even when taught, so they have to continue on the lowest run collecting sticks, but then we have rungs again, so it isn't true fairness.

I know I laid this out terribly and my explanation is poor, It's late, i'm tired, but can you see where I'm going with this? There has to be a social heirarchy, and what we have know is an evolved form of a basic hierarchy with the stick gatherers and the weapon makers, and the best way to achieve this is to have universal education so everyone is up to a similar standard when they finish schooling and all have the best opportunity to become the weapon makers.


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#52

Posted 04 November 2013 - 12:10 PM

Sure, education has some perks, but its main purpose is to sustain and improve established society. Look around. Get a good education to get a good job.

 

 

That's the whole point of it. Enrich your intelligence through the means of higher education to get a better job. There is nothing wrong with that.


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#53

Posted 04 November 2013 - 12:19 PM

Care to quantify your "humans fight constantly and things are worse now than ever" with the fact the last few decades have seen a decrease, rather than increase, in violent conflict across much of the organised world? Also care to address the flaw in your argument which implies that nations with organised, centralised and Westernised consumer-driven social ideologies are inexorably linked with this violence, when in reality the overwhelming majority of conflict occurs in nations without this structured societal bedrock? It seems contradictory to imply that organised society is responsible for violence characterised by disorganised sectarianism in places distinct from those your argument seems to focus on?

Academic reference are important in the context of your arguments primarily because there's no other substantive basis for your views. They're opinions dressed up as facts and whilst you're entitled to express them you can't continue to claim there's any empirical or measurable validity in them if you can't demonstrate anything that supports your argument. It's highly improper to claim "I am right" in an argument without quantifying why and how, and all the more strange to effectively claim that the reason you can't do so is that the academic system has conspired against you to prevent you from doing so. That's borderline paranoia.

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#54

Posted 04 November 2013 - 12:26 PM Edited by hflgk, 04 November 2013 - 12:29 PM.

Yes, people do put a lot of effort into making exclusive relationships work. This again goes back to ensuring the safe survival of your genetic material. Two responsible adults working together to protect and provide for a family is going to be an advantage over a single adult. However why does this arrangement necessarily lead to resentment? Are you suggesting that men and women are incapable of having a meaningful and deeply loving relationship? Who/what are you suggesting becomes a burden? The woman? The arrangement? Exclusivity?
 
This all strikes me as the dark and pathetic ramblings of a man who has never had a fulfilling or reciprocal relationship with a woman and therefore constructs a social framework which must exist on which to blame his inherent loneliness. It is all socially driven slavery which you have risen above. Am I right?

Because all women only want a man for the size of his wallet and are incapable of forming relationships which do have a sound financial platform? Come on, who hurt you buddy?

And that's how I (me, you don't have to) believe it should be. Two parents. It many times leads to resentment and thus a burden after the child is already grown. The parents were together to raise their offspring. After that, they're just sticking around because they said they would. Interaction diminishes. They just go through the motions. But still stick together. Either because they chose long ago to, or because of the governmental contract (marriage certificate) they possess.

I don't think fulfilling, or actual relationships are possible now. Society expects and drains too much of your time and energy. The spouse receives the leftovers. A couple hours together in the evening (usually for intercourse) and a couple days off a week. Just long enough to say hi, wash the dishes and get in the bed. And some people like that, because they can't stand being around their partner for long periods. Especially in later years of marriage as mentioned previously.

No, many women don't want a man just for his wallet, but almost all will leave when societal expectations or standards are not met. And these continue to grow.

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#55

Posted 04 November 2013 - 12:37 PM

Sad. There is nothing new, brilliant or insightful here no matter how edgy you try to make it sound. I'll refute your claim realizing it's pointless. Opinions such as these are not based on truth or logic but rather the holder's own self-confidence that they are more enlightened than the rest of the world.

 

Education is not slavery. Education is a system. Systems are flawed in that they influence the many but can be controlled by a few. There's a big difference between getting beaten/performing hard labor every day/having your family ripped from you/being sold on the auction block and doing a book report.

 

Marriage is not slavery. Don't get married (choice). End of story.

 

Now shut up and get a job and a girlfriend (or is that the root cause of all this?). BTW, your grammar is superb. Thank a teacher.


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#56

Posted 04 November 2013 - 12:40 PM Edited by hflgk, 04 November 2013 - 01:00 PM.

Care to quantify your "humans fight constantly and things are worse now than ever" with the fact the last few decades have seen a decrease, rather than increase, in violent conflict across much of the organised world? Also care to address the flaw in your argument which implies that nations with organised, centralised and Westernised consumer-driven social ideologies are inexorably linked with this violence, when in reality the overwhelming majority of conflict occurs in nations without this structured societal bedrock? It seems contradictory to imply that organised society is responsible for violence characterised by disorganised sectarianism in places distinct from those your argument seems to focus on?

Academic reference are important in the context of your arguments primarily because there's no other substantive basis for your views. They're opinions dressed up as facts and whilst you're entitled to express them you can't continue to claim there's any empirical or measurable validity in them if you can't demonstrate anything that supports your argument. It's highly improper to claim "I am right" in an argument without quantifying why and how, and all the more strange to effectively claim that the reason you can't do so is that the academic system has conspired against you to prevent you from doing so. That's borderline paranoia.

Paranoia? Not at all. Nor did I imply institutions conspiring against me.

I simply meant that established education, or established academia, diminishes individual and independent thought. Yeah, education encourages thought, but you're only right and credible if you follow what they have already laid out. Only if you copy, memorize, repeat and go along with the "authorized" concepts and ideas. Which of course, college is only a business. Like WalMart.

I said that violence is worse now than it has ever been because that's how I feel. View your environment. Violent games. Violent news. Big guns. World Wars. Mall shootings. School shootings. But above all this, we have organized units of violence. Army. Navy. Air Force. Marines. Not to mention all the other countries. Divisions of society dedicated to war and violence. We have a massive, calculated system of violence. Not even cavemen felt the need for such. Plus, look at all the nuclear warheads around the world we are reminded of daily. And don't forget.. the military even approaches students in grade school to persuade them to join.

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#57

Posted 04 November 2013 - 12:58 PM Edited by sivispacem, 04 November 2013 - 01:00 PM.

So what you're saying is that your perception of violence is worse, not that the violence itself is? Isn't that logically akin to claiming that crime is getting worse when the statistics show it better? Seems pretty disingenuous to me.

Armed forces aren't a new phenomenon, either. In fact the number of individuals involved directly in the armed forces in most nations as a proportion of population is reducing.

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#58

Posted 04 November 2013 - 12:58 PM

Education is a wonderful thing. I think it's so lovely that no matter what we think we know, the truth is that there is still a wealth of knowledge out there we have yet to discover, new ideas, belief systems, new creatures hiding in some corner of the world we've not yet discovered.
I believe learning has always been a form of liberation, both in terms of engendering the working classes with more self awareness and assertion of their rights and in regards to people simply discovering who they are and finding their own path in life.
 
Education doesn't make slaves of men, if anything is to blame for that, I believe it to be gender roles - all passed like a virulent disease by parents who want their girls to look pretty and their boys to mindlessly play sports, this is carried over into later life, with men eschewing knowledge in favour of physical superiority and women becoming dependent on men to validate their insecurity in their physical appearance.
If anything, a greater emphasis on the value of education - not practical education like 'learning a trade', but more in the way of philosophy - will lead to future generations becoming more separated from these absurd parts that were written for them. 

However, would parents even prefer their daughters be "pretty", or their sons athletic if it weren't for societal pressures?

Education is a broad term. This is why I tried to specify "public education" in my original post.

I like your statement concerning philosophy.

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#59

Posted 04 November 2013 - 01:06 PM

So what you're saying is that your perception of violence is worse, not that the violence itself is? Isn't that logically akin to claiming that crime is getting worse when the statistics show it better? Seems pretty disingenuous to me.

Armed forces aren't a new phenomenon, either. In fact the number of individuals involved directly in the armed forces in most nations as a proportion of population is reducing.

I believe the violence is worse. In part due to the reasons I gave above. But also due to technology. We have more powerful weapons. Individuals are capable of causing more harm. More weapons are available. Guns are everywhere. The potential for violence is great.


My main point is: we have massive outfits geared toward nothing but war. Massive, technological outfits designed for maximum defense AND offense. Pre-calculated, essentially pre-meditated purveyors of war. Cavemen didn't have that.

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#60

Posted 04 November 2013 - 01:12 PM

Just a quick question for the OP. You give a bunch of opinions and observations then ask everyone else to prove otherwise? I can type a bunch of stuff too and then ask people to prove otherwise.





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