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is Liberalism under threat?

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El_Diablo
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#1

Posted 30 October 2013 - 11:06 AM Edited by El_Diablo, 30 October 2013 - 11:11 AM.

I'm going to clip out a portion of something that I typed up (on another forum) in response to a topic about political parties in the United Kingdom. but it gave me an idea for something to discuss here in general. so it should be clear that the point of this thread is universal; it's not just about the UK or the US or anywhere in particular. I feel like the theme is common enough amongst Western politics to be appropriate across numerous states and governments.

 

snip snip...

 

what it comes down to (globally, not just in the US) is that the Left has been slowly disappearing. Liberal progressiveism tends to come in these leaps and spikes throughout history... generally speaking. you've got the abolition of royalty, abolition of slavery, civil rights, equal rights, etc. but as the pendulum swings back towards the Center we experience a severe vacuum of reason and common ground.

now speaking for the US: aside from the slow crawl of gay marriage and the 2 states that are trying to legalize marijuana, there's no such thing as Liberalism in our country. let's just take quick stock of the American political spectrum @ a glance. you already know what R ('publican) and D ('emocrat) stand for, so I'll use X as the example of what's missing.

  • Religion
    R = f*ck yeah Jesus is amazing. all Jesus all the time. if you're not in church then you're Commie Pinko scum. stop attacking Christmas. f*ck Muslims. teach Creationism in biology class.
    D = Jesus is ok I guess. let's just try and be as moderate as possible and never mention religion. instead just remove all the Christmas trees in any public space because we don't want to offend anyone accidentally or otherwise because we're passive-aggresive pussies. but make sure to keep swearing on the Bible during all public government events even though Congress shall establish no endorsement of a particular religion. did I mention we're passive-aggressive pussies?
    X = there's no party and no candidate that actually stands for atheism let alone rational secularism or even humanism.
  • War
    R = if we're not spending money on tanks and bombs and jets and drones and missiles and aircraft carriers and bases and forts and prisons and bunkers then we're bending over to the terrorists. f*ck yeah 9/11 never forget how that sh*t made you feel. can't wait to nuke Iran just gimme' the word and I'll push the button.
    D = war is ok I guess. let's just keep going to war sometimes because it still creates jobs in my district and I'm totally afraid of looking weak on bad guys. we definitely still need those black site prisons overseas and massive funding for the standing armies of Egypt and Japan and Germany despite the fact they've been our f*cking allies for decades.
    X = there's no party and no candidate who actually talks about putting an end to large, wasteful, unnecessary swaths of our military industrial complex; dismantling the Empire and reducing our negative footprint on global diplomacy. stop meddling in the affairs of the Middle-East and Africa and Asia and India and South America. stop pretending to be 'World Police.' we just look like the world's douchebag but no one will say it. you even try to mention it and you're labeled unpatriotic.
  • Guns
    R = f*ck yeah guns are amazing. all guns all the time. from my cold dead hands! arm teachers in schools. arm everyone. the 2nd amendment is sacrosanct and cannot possibly be regulated because it's special. like Jesus.
    D = guns are OK sometimes I guess. let's just outlaw the scary looking ones and move on, ignoring any honest discussion on the any of the intersecting issues at hand.
    X = there's no party and no candidate that actually stands for serious restrictions on gun access (ala the UK or Australia or Germany)

these are the 3 planks which affect virtually all other aspects of domestic and foreign policy today. but there's no X factor. and there's NO middle ground. it's killing the entire political process and it's ultimately killing government. there's just the Republicans hanging out on the far Right and losing control of the fringe, the Democrats stumbling around in the Center and occasionally tripping over their own feet into the Right, and NO ONE standing for a clear and objectified Left or Liberal point of view. it's dead. and the US isn't the only nation suffering under this complete lack of real choices.

 

that's the gist of it.

keep in mind that I'm only referring to major political parties and key political leaders. of course Liberalism still thrives in individual communities and people, but as far as true Liberal ideology and policy making is concerned there is no one promoting the far Left on the national stage with any real support. extremism of the far Left doesn't even begin to compare with the kind of volume, intensity, and certainty that is produced by extremism on the far Right.

 

what happened to the balance? did it ever exist to begin with?

or have national politics always been trapped in this Right vs Center rather than Right vs Left?

do you see the balance stabilizing or getting worse?

 

I think that's what I'm getting at.


Melchior
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#2

Posted 02 November 2013 - 06:16 AM Edited by Melchior, 02 November 2013 - 06:35 AM.

I think this is mainly an American phenomenon. The far-right have essentially high-jacked the term "conservative" and are claiming that the centre-right (which is most of America, comparatively)  is actually the "radical left." The reasons for this are mainly under-educated rural Americans who have noticed a decline in wages, services and available employment being lead to believe it's all because of "rich liberals" by snake oil salesmen like Rush Limbaugh, driving them to extremism and forcing politicians to pander to them and their ardent, misguided belief that all (non-corporate) welfare is "socialism" and that as soon as the guns are gone, the marxist police state begins.

 

These people are what I always hear Bill Maher call "the conservative bubble." Essentially the tea-baggers, Republican partisans, and anyone who thinks Obama is secretly a black power, Islamic, marxist revolutionary.


WBaker
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#3

Posted 02 November 2013 - 07:03 AM

That X party sounds awful and dangerously naive.

Guns are f*ckin awesome! Hell, even Bill Mahr owns a gun.

Melchior
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#4

Posted 02 November 2013 - 08:00 AM

That X party sounds awful and dangerously naive.

Guns are f*ckin awesome! Hell, even Bill Mahr owns a gun.

So instituting policies that have been consistently successful elsewhere is "dangerously naive"?


El_Diablo
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#5

Posted 04 November 2013 - 04:15 AM

I think this is mainly an American phenomenon.

well for starters.... lemme ask you this.

because I literally don't know that much about the current climate.

 

is there a contemporary European country who has an atheist-centric party that is actually in control of government?

I know for example that Sweden and Denmark and Norway are pretty damn secular but I don't know how much of that is actually directed down from the influence of political leadership. I'd imagine that a lot of it came purely from the whims of the people/culture/society. so is that "just the way it is" or is this secular nature actively maintained by the politicians?

 

outside of these rare cases, where is the middle ground on the most basic issues you know?

the choices have mostly boiled down to either half measures or full measures. hyper religious versus moderate religious, all guns versus some guns, overspending and waste in defense versus slightly less overspending while apologizing along the way. protect the border with cruise missiles versus let everyone flood in at once. massive and failing War on Drugs versus admitting that it's failing but doing nothing to stop it. is it any wonder why governments and economies are stagnating?

 

another sad example.

people I know from overseas continually ask me why I'm not kissing the ground that president Obama walks on. to outsiders, he's the greatest US president in decades; bar none. and in a lot of ways they would be correct. but I'm just bothered by the pretentiousness of it all. he's not a Liberal. he's Center Left at best. he hasn't really done anything to forward his Progressive roots short of attempting to reform healthcare and consumer financial protections... both of which (once again) were just half measures. the Affordable Care Act is a horsesh*t compromise on what should have been a single-payer and/or public-option system, just like consumer protection caved into Wallstreet oversight resulting in more fines for dollars than jailtime or serious reform of the investment banks.

 

Coke or Pepsi?

it all tastes the same. by which I mean like asshole.


sivispacem
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#6

Posted 04 November 2013 - 07:38 AM Edited by sivispacem, 04 November 2013 - 07:38 AM.

I'd argue that no European political party is religiously motivated in the way that politics in the US is. I wouldn't say they're secular per se, but I'd argue that in Europe religion is a phenomenon that's largely ignored (for the best in my view) by politicians. It certainly doesn't have anything close to the political traction it does in the US, even in the Catholic countries.

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Myron
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#7

Posted 04 November 2013 - 06:29 PM Edited by Nale Dixon, 04 November 2013 - 06:30 PM.

I'm going to clip out a portion of something that I typed up (on another forum) in response to a topic about political parties in the United Kingdom. but it gave me an idea for something to discuss here in general. so it should be clear that the point of this thread is universal; it's not just about the UK or the US or anywhere in particular. I feel like the theme is common enough amongst Western politics to be appropriate across numerous states and governments.

 

snip snip...

 

what it comes down to (globally, not just in the US) is that the Left has been slowly disappearing. Liberal progressiveism tends to come in these leaps and spikes throughout history... generally speaking. you've got the abolition of royalty, abolition of slavery, civil rights, equal rights, etc. but as the pendulum swings back towards the Center we experience a severe vacuum of reason and common ground.

now speaking for the US: aside from the slow crawl of gay marriage and the 2 states that are trying to legalize marijuana, there's no such thing as Liberalism in our country. let's just take quick stock of the American political spectrum @ a glance. you already know what R ('publican) and D ('emocrat) stand for, so I'll use X as the example of what's missing.

  • Religion
    R = f*ck yeah Jesus is amazing. all Jesus all the time. if you're not in church then you're Commie Pinko scum. stop attacking Christmas. f*ck Muslims. teach Creationism in biology class.
    D = Jesus is ok I guess. let's just try and be as moderate as possible and never mention religion. instead just remove all the Christmas trees in any public space because we don't want to offend anyone accidentally or otherwise because we're passive-aggresive pussies. but make sure to keep swearing on the Bible during all public government events even though Congress shall establish no endorsement of a particular religion. did I mention we're passive-aggressive pussies?
    X = there's no party and no candidate that actually stands for atheism let alone rational secularism or even humanism.
  • War
    R = if we're not spending money on tanks and bombs and jets and drones and missiles and aircraft carriers and bases and forts and prisons and bunkers then we're bending over to the terrorists. f*ck yeah 9/11 never forget how that sh*t made you feel. can't wait to nuke Iran just gimme' the word and I'll push the button.
    D = war is ok I guess. let's just keep going to war sometimes because it still creates jobs in my district and I'm totally afraid of looking weak on bad guys. we definitely still need those black site prisons overseas and massive funding for the standing armies of Egypt and Japan and Germany despite the fact they've been our f*cking allies for decades.
    X = there's no party and no candidate who actually talks about putting an end to large, wasteful, unnecessary swaths of our military industrial complex; dismantling the Empire and reducing our negative footprint on global diplomacy. stop meddling in the affairs of the Middle-East and Africa and Asia and India and South America. stop pretending to be 'World Police.' we just look like the world's douchebag but no one will say it. you even try to mention it and you're labeled unpatriotic.
  • Guns
    R = f*ck yeah guns are amazing. all guns all the time. from my cold dead hands! arm teachers in schools. arm everyone. the 2nd amendment is sacrosanct and cannot possibly be regulated because it's special. like Jesus.
    D = guns are OK sometimes I guess. let's just outlaw the scary looking ones and move on, ignoring any honest discussion on the any of the intersecting issues at hand.
    X = there's no party and no candidate that actually stands for serious restrictions on gun access (ala the UK or Australia or Germany)

these are the 3 planks which affect virtually all other aspects of domestic and foreign policy today. but there's no X factor. and there's NO middle ground. it's killing the entire political process and it's ultimately killing government. there's just the Republicans hanging out on the far Right and losing control of the fringe, the Democrats stumbling around in the Center and occasionally tripping over their own feet into the Right, and NO ONE standing for a clear and objectified Left or Liberal point of view. it's dead. and the US isn't the only nation suffering under this complete lack of real choices.

 

that's the gist of it.

keep in mind that I'm only referring to major political parties and key political leaders. of course Liberalism still thrives in individual communities and people, but as far as true Liberal ideology and policy making is concerned there is no one promoting the far Left on the national stage with any real support. extremism of the far Left doesn't even begin to compare with the kind of volume, intensity, and certainty that is produced by extremism on the far Right.

 

what happened to the balance? did it ever exist to begin with?

or have national politics always been trapped in this Right vs Center rather than Right vs Left?

do you see the balance stabilizing or getting worse?

 

I think that's what I'm getting at.

I dunno I mean the green party pretty much has all your xes covered. Also corporate power is more of an issue than those three issues.


El_Diablo
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#8

Posted 06 November 2013 - 06:16 AM

I'd argue that no European political party is religiously motivated in the way that politics in the US is.

 

that's certainly the way it seems.

but are you speaking to Euro politics in general or historically?

 

it's hard to ignore the current religious fervor in the UK, for instance, regarding the issue of immigration from the Muslim world. and not just immigration but the integration into society. I know the US has Pastor Terry Jones to answer for, but we haven't exactly debated banning the Burqa yet.

 

 

corporate power is more of an issue than those three issues.

you're right actually.

I should have included Government Intervention/Regulation into the Economy as the 4th key plank of national politics.

 

it also falls into this category of vanishing Liberal choices.

there again you have the Far Right who appears to stand for NO regulations whatsoever (which is insanity) while the Center Left wants too many regulations and oversight on sectors of the economy that simply don't require it.

 

again it's all or nothing.


sivispacem
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#9

Posted 06 November 2013 - 08:01 AM

it's hard to ignore the current religious fervor in the UK, for instance, regarding the issue of immigration from the Muslim world. and not just immigration but the integration into society. I know the US has Pastor Terry Jones to answer for, but we haven't exactly debated banning the Burqa yet.

 

Cultural issues related to religious tolerance aren't evidence of religiously motivated political policy, though.


El_Diablo
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#10

Posted 06 November 2013 - 09:14 AM

so your anti-Islam movement is our Tea Party?


RoadRunner71
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#11

Posted 06 November 2013 - 10:04 AM Edited by RoadRunner71, 06 November 2013 - 10:05 AM.

I'd argue that no European political party is religiously motivated in the way that politics in the US is.

 

Not that exagerated as it is in the US but still motivated by the Church, the party which is currently in the Government in Spain has been trying to carry out some reforms as request or to please the Church. This includes trying to illegalize abortion and I do think gay marriage too or, the latest one, trying to implement religion as an obligatory subject in high school. The party claims to be a center one, though is actually a right wing one.


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#12

Posted 06 November 2013 - 02:52 PM

 

so your anti-Islam movement is our Tea Party?

There is a party called UKIP in the UK which functions as a sort of middle class reactionary party posing as a grassroots movement, serving a similar purpose to the Tea Party. The single issue anti-Islam thing is more of a working class movement.


sivispacem
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#13

Posted 06 November 2013 - 03:48 PM

I wouldn't say that UKIP is a middle class party in terms of grassroots support. Much of the support comes from the elderly who are the people mostly stirred by their jingoism. I'd contender that most educated, middle-class people under the age of 40 recognise their complete lack of coherent policy.

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#14

Posted 06 November 2013 - 11:44 PM

 

That X party sounds awful and dangerously naive.

Guns are f*ckin awesome! Hell, even Bill Mahr owns a gun.

So instituting policies that have been consistently successful elsewhere is "dangerously naive"?

 

I think this person is one of the people that has damaged the balance within the American political system, I feel the X party is actually the most logical party that seems to have sound reasoning for all policies in place. 
I am still completely baffled at how gay rights haven't been allowed yet in the US and Australia, I have never once heard someone with a reasonable sounding answer as to why it isn't allowed, "Marriage is between a man and a woman, that's just how it is." Well no. It's only like that because you refuse to change it, Marriage was never supposed to end in the first place, Divorce is a sin isn't it?  Anyway i'm gettting off track.
Point is, how can people with such flawed logic in relation to gays be trusted to have sensible logic in other areas?

@ WBaker, is this your motto? "I hate gays, Guns are good and them sand people need us to tell them what to do."


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#15

Posted 07 November 2013 - 01:00 AM

Well, for what's worth, when you look at the states in the US that have gay marriage, they are states with some of the highest populations, so a huge chunk- possibly a near-majority- of the US population has access to gay marriage, so the argument could be made that they're ahead of us on this issue.


El_Diablo
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#16

Posted 07 November 2013 - 04:47 AM

so your anti-Islam movement is our Tea Party?

There is a party called UKIP in the UK which functions as a sort of middle class reactionary party posing as a grassroots movement, serving a similar purpose to the Tea Party. The single issue anti-Islam thing is more of a working class movement.

interesting that you mention UKIP.

UKIP was the topic of discussion in the other forum where I originally posted my quote from the OP.

 

in that discussion, UKIP was used as an illustration of how "the Far Right is growing in Europe at a much faster pace than the Far Left."

this diagram was thrown around more than once...

 

20131029_chaos.jpg


sivispacem
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#17

Posted 07 November 2013 - 08:05 AM Edited by sivispacem, 07 November 2013 - 08:07 AM.

UKIP aren't prototypically far right, though. They're an odd combination of centrist/centre right policies with the odd dash of free-marketism and a large dose of xenophobia. 

The far left is generally unpopular because we spent the best part of 5 decades bashing them and their policies, and therefore they're about as popular as a turd on your carpet everywhere apart from places like Greece with a long history of support for Communism. 


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#18

Posted 09 November 2013 - 10:01 AM

What bothers me is when people talk about partisanship in America as though the blame should be spread around equally. They talk about how polarising politics are in America and how everyone should come together and whatnot. They like to play the mediating mother and say "oh there's loonies on the left and the right." Well no, there isn't. When you watch Rachel Maddow or Bill Maher or Michael Moore you aren't going "god, what's this torrent of crazy that my TV is vomiting out at me." Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck, on the other hand.

 

Basically, there's the centre-right and the centre-left who are by and large quite reasonable and flexible. And this is the Democrats and probably a lot of people who vote Republican out of habit. But now there's this two percent or whatever who are totally radicalised and lived in a bubble of dogmatic fiction; the Tea Party and the Christian-right. These are the people who don't compromise. It's basically the entire country and their modern beliefs vs. a few crazies who somehow have the political clout to make politicians pander to them. They've more or less taken over the Republican Party.

 

I mean, look at the Affordable Care Act. It's more or less Republican ideas, invented as a compromise on the left's push for universal healthcare. And yet somehow, it's denounced as socialism and the Republicans shut down the government in order to defund it while people somehow have this narrative of the two parties not seeing eye to eye on either side. Um, the Democrats just put their ideas on the back burner and implemented ideas that are 80% Republican and the Republicans went "no, the entire country will come to a stand still before we support that!"

 

The left aren't unflinching supporters of dogmatic crap, and they don't believe in crazy conspiracy theories. The right, on the other hand, won't budge an inch on really any issue, healthcare, guns etc. and seem to vehemently believe that Obama is a black-power socialist revolutionary. Let's be honest here, American politics seem so polarised because a small minority has high-jacked the term "conservative" and are pretending everyone else are "liberals" and have more or less trained their followers to believe a bunch of nonsense about political realities, and the political climate.

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El_Diablo
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#19

Posted 11 November 2013 - 05:08 AM

What bothers me is when people talk about partisanship in America as though the blame should be spread around equally....

 

The left aren't unflinching supporters of dogmatic crap, and they don't believe in crazy conspiracy theories. The right, on the other hand, won't budge an inch on really any issue...

 

as far as the US is concerned, this is exactly right.
keep in mind we're not necessarily talking about all conservative voters. but the Republican party itself is severely out of touch with reality and slowly losing control over the fringe elements it stirred up in order to boost voter turnout.

 

when did everything become so Black And White?
the US is not even a 2-party system. it's a multiparty system that has devolved into just 2 slightly different brands of off-white paste.

now lets be honest.
whipping up the fringe in order to seduce mainstream power is an age old tactic in modern politics. arguably the EU is watching this very concept play out to a degree (UKIP, BNP?) but there's a difference. it doesn't seem to saturate and degrade the governments of the EU the way that it has so rapidly here in the US.

why? what's the dilly yo?
I mean seriously.

how did we become the land of Coke vs Pepsi while the rest of the world still enjoys a choice between 42 different flavors??

at least when it comes to UKIP for instance in the EU, people don't actually take them very seriously. even the most hard-lined conservative groups in the UK don't enjoy anywhere near the kind of mainstream attention that they receive in the US. I hear a lot of my friends from overseas refer to the most Far Right political groups as little more than a counterweight; basically just the obligatory protest vote against the more popular parties. but in the US we have moved far beyond simple protest votes. our political fringe has literally managed to shut down the government and utterly poisoned intelligent/rational debate as we know it.

 

I don't know what happened.


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#20

Posted 11 November 2013 - 05:21 AM Edited by DeafMetal, 11 November 2013 - 05:24 AM.

No offense but you look pretty naive making this post. There are parties that support every single thing you mentioned, they're just not popular. Dems and Reps have a stranglehold on major political events and they like to keep it that way. As well as the fact that you're using the loud minority of Reps as a streamlined example vs the general majority of Dems as an example, which you shouldn't do. Neither party at its core is far-right nor far-left, but there are subdivions (like the Tea Party) that totally are, and are usually the loudest.


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#21

Posted 11 November 2013 - 05:49 AM

Neither party at its core is far-right nor far-left, but there are subdivions (like the Tea Party) that totally are, and are usually the loudest.

Perhaps it's you who is naive? It's pretty clear that the Republicans pander to the Tea Party. Being a loud minority doesn't mean you can dismiss them; they may as well be a majority of the Republican Party. 


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#22

Posted 11 November 2013 - 07:16 AM

 

Neither party at its core is far-right nor far-left, but there are subdivions (like the Tea Party) that totally are, and are usually the loudest.

Perhaps it's you who is naive? It's pretty clear that the Republicans pander to the Tea Party. Being a loud minority doesn't mean you can dismiss them; they may as well be a majority of the Republican Party. 

 

I didn't dismiss them. I literally just mentioned them as one of the countless splinter groups that have popped up in American politics. And about pandering...

 

http://www.huffingto..._n_4075052.html

http://www.deseretne...-Obamacare.html

 

^ Two of the most prominent non-tea-party republicans, both at one point a hair away from becoming president of the USA.

 

I guess I should have expanded on my point. Based on my experience, there is one timeless truth to politics: politicians have no character and no principles. Basically, what I'm saying is that both the republican and democratic party are pussies, not just the dems. What the republican party had been doing from around late 1st term of Obama up until after the sh*tstorm caused by the shutdown was testing the views of the Tea Party upon their target demographic: will these guys' opinions get us more votes? When they say that the general public thought the TP were whackos, they backtracked and are now totally against the TP.

 

Hell, just look at McCain and Romney. They flip-flop like they're cooks at McDonalds. I was slightly following McCain before he announced his bid for presidency, and I actually agreed with a lot of the stuff he said, more so than most other politicians around. However, when he was running for presidency, he completely flipped on a f*ckload of issues because his party thought it would get him more votes. Now that the TP is no longer "hip," he's steadily going back to square one, flip-flopping for a third time.

 

Politicians do not have principles. Politicians are people who search for a legacy and will try to do so by any means necessary, even if it means completely remolding their own core principles to fit whatever they think will sell. Look at McCain: he was all for immigration reform pre-prez nomination then he was all "deport everyone!" and now he's all "immigration reform!" Look at the history of the democratic party: they go from pretty much exactly what OP described as the Rep party to the modern Dem party like they're playing hopscotch. Look at Obama: the dude says one thing and does another. sh*t, he's supposed to be liberal dreamboat and yet when asked about gay marriage a while ago, he tried his best to be cas vague as possible as to not upset either side of the fence.

 

i.e., OP is implying that political parties or politicians themselves have principles. If democrats think a far-left splinter group will grant them the most seats in the coming election, then you bet your sweet ass they'll Tea-Party them up.

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#23

Posted 11 November 2013 - 08:12 AM

No offense but you look pretty naive making this post. There are parties that support every single thing you mentioned, they're just not popular.

no offense but it sounds like you missed the point.

I already clarified the fact that Liberal parties exist. this doesn't change the fact Liberal ideology appears to enjoy a profound deficit in terms of its representation in government compared to Conservatism. there's a HUGE range of Conservative choices to make at the polls. there's all sorts of ways to discriminate and oppress and restrict. but in terms of the primary political planks I've listed in the OP (crime, war, religion, and economy) there's almost no true Liberal choices.

 

the fact that they exist in isolated pockets with no support from any real/major political party is irrelevant.

 

my point is this: the Fringe Right seems to have found a home in the mainstream. why hasn't the Fringe Left?

on the Right you've got bible-thumping racists who hate women, minorities, and the poor. they routinely get elected for office. on the Left I should be seeing pot smoking atheists who want to legalize all drugs and shut down the half the Pentagon. but you'll NEVER see this candidate let alone find him winning election.

 

where is the counter balance?


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#24

Posted 12 November 2013 - 12:46 AM Edited by Irviding, 12 November 2013 - 12:47 AM.

Basically the overarching focus here seems to be that Democrats in the United States are incredibly toothless and give away everything. 

 


on the Right you've got bible-thumping racists who hate women, minorities, and the poor. they routinely get elected for office. on the Left I should be seeing pot smoking atheists who want to legalize all drugs and shut down the half the Pentagon. but you'll NEVER see this candidate let alone find him winning election.

that's probably because what you describe isn't really viewed as far right in the US. From a European standpoint it sure is extremely far right, but those bible thumping racists you describe are a good portion of the country and thus reflected in the Republican party.


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#25

Posted 12 November 2013 - 10:47 AM


that's probably because what you describe isn't really viewed as far right in the US. From a European standpoint it sure is extremely far right, but those bible thumping racists you describe are a good portion of the country and thus reflected in the Republican party.

actually that's not true.

 

"bible thumping racists" does NOT describe a good portion of the country.

that's the point of this topic.

 

Republican party leadership is out of touch with its own base as much as it is with reality itself.

the vast majority of common Republican-registered voters are completely normal, reasonable, rational people with a mortgage, a wife, a 10 year old minivan, and a couple of kids in public school. they DO NOT believe in the kind of extreme rhetoric that passes for routine talking points in today's GOP. but they cannot seem to get a handle on their party.

 

this is what I'm trying to get at.


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Posted 13 November 2013 - 06:56 PM Edited by Vlynor, 13 November 2013 - 06:57 PM.

The Libertarian Party fits the first two X categories while the Green Party of the United States fits all three. The Libertarian Party is the 3rd largest in the nation and the Green Party is the 4th, operating in 50 and 37 states (+ DC) respectively.


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#27

Posted 14 November 2013 - 01:42 AM

"largest" being completely relative and relatively irrelevant since the Libs and the Greens have never attained more than 8% of the national vote.

they don't seem to stand a chance which is exactly in line with my concerns.

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Posted 14 November 2013 - 01:52 AM

"largest" being completely relative and relatively irrelevant since the Libs and the Greens have never attained more than 8% of the national vote.

they don't seem to stand a chance which is exactly in line with my concerns.

 

Then do something about it. There are plenty of people who fit the Green/Libertarian platform who don't support the party due to them not being voted in often enough and feeling like they've wasted a vote. If you want a party that fits your views, you have to be willing to vote for it and support it.


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#29

Posted 14 November 2013 - 03:03 AM

Then do something about it. There are plenty of people who fit the Green/Libertarian platform who don't support the party due to them not being voted in often enough and feeling like they've wasted a vote. If you want a party that fits your views, you have to be willing to vote for it and support it.

 

you're preaching to the choir.

this gets us nowhere.

 

I know there are other choices.

what I'm trying to figure out is what happened to those choices in mainstream society. they've been squashed.

 

also relevant:

http://www.liveleak....=52b_1329796059


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Posted 14 November 2013 - 03:32 AM

 

Then do something about it. There are plenty of people who fit the Green/Libertarian platform who don't support the party due to them not being voted in often enough and feeling like they've wasted a vote. If you want a party that fits your views, you have to be willing to vote for it and support it.

 

you're preaching to the choir.

this gets us nowhere.

 

I know there are other choices.

what I'm trying to figure out is what happened to those choices in mainstream society. they've been squashed.

 

also relevant:

http://www.liveleak....=52b_1329796059

 

 

It would get somewhere if people actually did something about it. I was a Ron Paul supporter during the 2012 Republican Primaries and Gary Johnson supporter during the actual election. If enough people supported another party instead of saying, "Oh, it's a wasted vote, I'll just vote for X!" there would be change. That's why they're not mainstream. Ron Paul and Gary Johnson were both on television networks like CNN and Fox news, but neither had enough support to go all of the way. Unless you actually go out and educate people you won't get anywhere. You, personally, need to stand up to make the change.





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