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How do you feel about foreign countries spying on you/your leaders?

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theadmiral
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#1

Posted 25 October 2013 - 11:25 PM

Business as usual and much ado about nothing, or totally unacceptable and uncharted territory?


sivispacem
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#2

Posted 25 October 2013 - 11:30 PM

That's what intelligence agencies do. 

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theadmiral
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#3

Posted 25 October 2013 - 11:32 PM

That's what intelligence agencies do. 

I agree with you and do not understand why the latest news is at all shocking.


Raavi
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#4

Posted 25 October 2013 - 11:49 PM Edited by Raavi, 25 October 2013 - 11:50 PM.

Come on folks, like our resident analyst already noted: It's what Intelligence Agencies do. They gather intelligence to protect you from people who want to go boom in name of their religion and help further a nation's interest. What'd you expect, that they would call you first asking you if you would be ok with them spying on you?


theadmiral
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#5

Posted 25 October 2013 - 11:51 PM

Come on folks, like our resident analyst already noted: It's what Intelligence Agencies do. They gather intelligence to protect you from people who want to go boom in name of their religion and help further a nation's interest. What'd you expect, that they would call you first asking you if you would be ok with them spying on you?

Do you see any difference in spying on allied government officials when terror is clearly not a reason? Or is it all the same?


Raavi
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#6

Posted 26 October 2013 - 12:00 AM Edited by Raavi, 26 October 2013 - 12:01 AM.

 

Come on folks, like our resident analyst already noted: It's what Intelligence Agencies do. They gather intelligence to protect you from people who want to go boom in name of their religion and help further a nation's interest. What'd you expect, that they would call you first asking you if you would be ok with them spying on you?

Do you see any difference in spying on allied government officials when terror is clearly not a reason? Or is it all the same?

 

 

Like I said it helps further a nation's interests. As a nation trusting other nations is great, but making sure they honour your trust is even better. 


El_Diablo
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#7

Posted 26 October 2013 - 12:23 AM

it's business as usual.

nothing to see here, move along.

 

it's not even just business as usual for governments.

this is business as usual for culture and human beings in general. we are jealously curious about each other as a people. it's why tabloid magazines, biographies, and reality TV are so popular. well all pretend to value privacy but we don't really. the moment we get a chance to glimpse the private life or thoughts of someone else (assuming we're interested in them) we take it without hesitation. and people on Twitter, Facebook, InstaGram, etc can't wait to share every little boring stupid detail about every little boring stupid moment of their life.

 

no on really wants privacy.

we just pretend we do.

 

until you stop buying Us Weekly and People Magazine and the published diaries of JFK or Anna Nicole Smith, you have no right to complain about government intrusion into privacy.


theadmiral
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#8

Posted 26 October 2013 - 12:26 AM

So without going into any specifics for fear of a flame war, why is this current news story getting such attention and headlines? It seems like it is what we all know has been happening since the 80s.


Shyabang Shyabang
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#9

Posted 26 October 2013 - 01:31 AM

This is big news because the US government got caught.


stu
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#10

Posted 26 October 2013 - 01:49 AM Edited by GTA_stu, 26 October 2013 - 01:50 AM.

Spying on an allied country's leader's personal phone is a bit much though, no?

 

You expect a certain amount of intrusion, but there should be limits. To give anyone, it doesn't matter who it is, unlimited and unrestrained access to your country's sensitive information is just plain careless and stupid. Of course the U.S. is doing it to "further it's own interests", but why does that make it right? In this case it hasn't served it's own interests in fact, because they've been found out and it's caused something of a diplomatic scandal.

 

If the Chinese or Iranian intelligence agencies launch a cyber attack on the U.S. is that ok because "That's what they do"? I don't see how it can be acceptable to spy on your friends and allies to such an intrusive extent, how is that healthy for forming relationships? There needs to be a certain level of mutual trust, and you harm that trust if you then go and cross a line by bugging a leader's phone.

 

This has nothing to do with terrorism or protecting the U.S. from harm, it's a step too far and basically just greed. I don't see how you can't justify something like this.  


F4L?
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#11

Posted 26 October 2013 - 01:50 AM

This is big news because the US government got caught.


Exactly.
Personally I'm not bothered, if they see my donkey porn, so what, they're probably helping prevent me getting blown up at the supermarket. A fair trade off I think.

And For the record,I do not watch donkey porn...much

Shyabang Shyabang
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#12

Posted 26 October 2013 - 01:59 AM Edited by Shyabang Shyabang, 27 October 2013 - 06:41 AM.

Spying on an allied country's leader's personal phone is a bit much though  

I agree. I understand why Chancellor Merkel would be upset.

 

I was talking about why this is big news now. The reason that it wasn't before was because the US government never got caught at that time. I remember my teacher told me that during the Cold War, bugging someone's personal life was considered as a communist government thing. Most people didn't think that this was what the US government would do also.


theadmiral
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#13

Posted 26 October 2013 - 01:34 PM

I'd love to hear any insight from German forum members about what the general opinion is (Not the newspaper opinion) on this, if any happen by this thread. French too!


Lucchese
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#14

Posted 26 October 2013 - 03:20 PM

Well, so long as some creepy, nerdy Snowden-like kid isn't battering his log off to a live stream of me engaging in my cherished pastime of sulphuric-acid-ball-dipping-while-snorting-my-latest-victims-pube-clippings, then I'm all for government snooping in the interests of national security.


El_Diablo
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#15

Posted 26 October 2013 - 11:22 PM

Well, so long as some creepy, nerdy Snowden-like kid isn't battering his log off to a live stream of me engaging in my cherished pastime of sulphuric-acid-ball-dipping-while-snorting-my-latest-victims-pube-clippings, then I'm all for government snooping in the interests of national security.

303853_10150425673476253_590881252_10762

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Lucchese
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#16

Posted 27 October 2013 - 12:00 AM Edited by niko bellic half brother, 27 October 2013 - 12:06 AM.

And ^this is exactly why pictures are (Edit: sometimes) more effective than typed responses.


MindCorrupt
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#17

Posted 27 October 2013 - 01:55 AM

I'd like to see the reaction if German intelligence agencies were found to be eavesdropping on personal phone calls of US leaders.

RoadRunner71
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#18

Posted 27 October 2013 - 02:03 AM

Wasn't Germany using the same espionage programs than the US?

Anyway, it's quite despicable what the US espionage has been doing with their allies. Seems that they think that everyone outside the USA is a potential terrorist...

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#19

Posted 27 October 2013 - 02:29 AM

Wasn't Germany using the same espionage programs than the US?

Anyway, it's quite despicable what the US espionage has been doing with their allies. Seems that they think that everyone outside the USA is a potential terrorist...

Every country spies on every other country. It's normal. I have no problem with spying on other countries, I have a problem when my own country spies on me.


Joe Chip
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#20

Posted 27 October 2013 - 06:04 AM

Personally I'm not bothered, if they see my donkey porn, so what, they're probably helping prevent me getting blown up at the supermarket. A fair trade off I think.

 

http://www.washingto...ading/?page=all

 

Not one plot was ever definitively foiled with the use of phone tapping after claims that they've stopped more than fifty with it. He (the director of the NSA) even goes on to say "The program shouldn't be measured by plots foiled, but by peace of mind."


Stephan90
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#21

Posted 27 October 2013 - 12:59 PM Edited by Stephan123, 27 October 2013 - 01:03 PM.

A short opinion from Germany, the people here are not surprised about the spying, only our americanophile leading party CDU representatives and chancelor Merkel, who said a couple of months ago, that the internet was "Neuland" (new land) for all of us. She makes a fool of us.

 

I don't blame the USA for what they do, because I don't regard the state as a "friend" of Germany that can "dissapoint us". It is just as another player of the game, that follows its own interests. I blame Angela Merkel and her party for not doing anything and sayng that the affair was over a month ago. If I had to say something on a politcial level, I would immediately close the NSA headquarter near Darmstadt, the complex they want to build in Wiesbaden and whatever they or other American news agencies have build here, and of course I would send all employees home. Next step is getting inside in all relevant archives and not just getting to hear a "no we don't spy you, we never would do such bad things".

 

Plus, I would block the proposed transatlantic free trade agreement, because the USA are the biggest profiteer and we are one smallest profiteers. But maybe the other EU states will also block it now anyway.

 

Edward Snowden should get asylum here, he is a hero. Today it's all over the news that according to a high ranked NSA employee, NSA boss Keith Alexander told Barack Obama in 2010 about the survaillance, but Obama let it go on and even ordered a dossier about Merkel, because he wanted to know "who she really is" and didn't trust her. If this will be proved as the truth, they should take away his nobel prize for peace, which is ridicolous anysway and give it to Edward Snowden.


Raavi
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#22

Posted 27 October 2013 - 02:44 PM

The main reason why the US is listening in on conversations, texts and other forms of communication of European politicians and high ranking members of society is not because Europeans pose a threat to national security, sure they'll come across some chatter of a person or group of people who want to go boom in a public local every once in a blue moon. But that's not the main reason. It's much more straightforward than that. Spying on people like Merkel simply gives the United States an advantage in negotiations on trade and other economic competition, it's basically insider trading under the veil of intelligence gathering. It's bloody brilliant.


Stephan90
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#23

Posted 27 October 2013 - 03:05 PM Edited by Stephan123, 27 October 2013 - 03:11 PM.

The biggest German telecommunications company Deutsche Telekom plans to build up a "German internet" with other companies, that only routes communication between two points in the country through routers that are inside the country.

 

gizmodo.com/germany-wants-its-own-internet-because-of-the-nsa-debac-1451999331

 

It's a shame that I sold my QSC stocks, they went through the roof after the spying affair was made public. However, I will keep an eye on the whole sector. I think with all the recent news it is obvious that "national internets" must be established sooner or later.


Shyabang Shyabang
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#24

Posted 27 October 2013 - 03:21 PM Edited by Shyabang Shyabang, 29 October 2013 - 11:00 AM.

The main reason why the US is listening in on conversations, texts and other forms of communication of European politicians and high ranking members of society is not because Europeans pose a threat to national security, sure they'll come across some chatter of a person or group of people who want to go boom in a public local every once in a blue moon. But that's not the main reason. It's much more straightforward than that. Spying on people like Merkel simply gives the United States an advantage in negotiations on trade and other economic competition, it's basically insider trading under the veil of intelligence gathering. It's bloody brilliant.

That makes sense since the German government isn't associated with terrorism. Why else would she be spied on? Germany is a major exporter.


sivispacem
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#25

Posted 27 October 2013 - 05:11 PM Edited by sivispacem, 27 October 2013 - 05:11 PM.

I understand the German fear about foreign intelligence gathering, given that they're an industrial powerhouse with a certain degree of historical paranoia about insider and outsider threats, a product of their pretty unique history. But it's also worth mention that a lot of the releases that have taken place seem very serious to an untrained external observer, but when look at in isolation or combined on a more technical level are considerably less worrisome (Bruce Schneier, the cryptographer, has said a great deal about this). I will say, however, that I would be extremely surprised if Germany doesn't conduct covert surveillance on its allies.I get the impression countries are only annoyed because it got publicly outed, not because it takes place. That's basically a given.


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#26

Posted 27 October 2013 - 05:45 PM

I don't really care at all.


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#27

Posted 27 October 2013 - 06:25 PM

I'd be more pissed that my government couldn't stop it happening to them, than at the government actually did it.  Which I'm sure the US government is the most spied on government in the world, and of course is doing half of that spying.

 

It's like prison rape.  It's gonna happen, whether we like it or not, and if it didn't happen, things might be much much worse for everyone.

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theadmiral
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#28

Posted 27 October 2013 - 06:43 PM

It sort of reminds me how years ago we somehow found out Hamid Karzai was an opium addict and formed some dossier/plan to exploit this.

 

They probably profiled Merkel for various reasons like identifying personality traits, her fears, concerns, etc then played on these. Very underhanded but I think it is business as usual.

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MindCorrupt
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#29

Posted 27 October 2013 - 07:05 PM

I understand the German fear about foreign intelligence gathering, given that they're an industrial powerhouse with a certain degree of historical paranoia about insider and outsider threats, a product of their pretty unique history. But it's also worth mention that a lot of the releases that have taken place seem very serious to an untrained external observer, but when look at in isolation or combined on a more technical level are considerably less worrisome (Bruce Schneier, the cryptographer, has said a great deal about this). I will say, however, that I would be extremely surprised if Germany doesn't conduct covert surveillance on its allies.I get the impression countries are only annoyed because it got publicly outed, not because it takes place. That's basically a given.

 

Why would they be annoyed that it got pubically outed over it actually taking place? Because it might bring some attention to their own operations?

 

I think possibly they're upset that they dont have the resources do it back? I'd imagine US intelligence and counter intelligence programs are somewhat more advanced than that of its allies.


sivispacem
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#30

Posted 27 October 2013 - 07:12 PM

The US aren't really just the US, they're Five Eyes. That's the UK, US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. All their SIGINT capability is basically combined operationally.

I more meant that Germany has to appear annoyed even though they clearly knew it was happening, because their citizens didn't.

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