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Blips - Game Mechanic Improvement

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Ren Fujin
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#31

Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:34 PM

I'm agreeing with your updated version 99%, DaCosta.
... but I'm still unsure about the Line of Sight mechanic. It does sound cool and all, but doesn't it kinda defeat the purpose of having no blips in the first place ?

 

The proposed system defines that both players will not necessarily know that they are close to another. However, a generous Line of Sight mechanic would allow one, or both players to become aware and their reaction from there would be completely up to them.
This especially ... wouldn't that have the whole thing revert back to what it is currently ?
If other players are allowed to "add" your blip to their map once they are close to you, that makes you unable to effectively blend into the world, for instance. I could see the LoS mechanic get exploited - people could just rotate the camera around until a blip appears on the map, instead of actually looking for players visually.
I don't know, it's probably because I'm more interested in mechanics that force players to ID others visually, because that would open for more immersive gameplay, such as blending in NPC crowds, changing vehicles or clothing to get away, etc. That's where our concepts part, I think. I'd be all for a blip mechanic that would only display far blips, and let close encounters entirely up to the player's ability to identify the other player visually, without being able to rely on a blip.
 
The rest of your suggestions I definitely agree with, though :)

Zwenkwiel
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#32

Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:35 PM

if you don't want to be harrased go to invite only

I mean if you want no interaction with other players why even have them there?

also imagine the griefing possibilities, some guy hiding with a silenced sniper could really f*ck up your day

not to mention you just doing your thing making a lot of noise and than BAM out of nowhere you're dead because some player you could not see kills you.

 

you have some interesting idea's there, just not very practical


DaCosta
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#33

Posted 16 October 2013 - 02:47 PM

if you don't want to be harrased go to invite only

I mean if you want no interaction with other players why even have them there?

also imagine the griefing possibilities, some guy hiding with a silenced sniper could really f*ck up your day

not to mention you just doing your thing making a lot of noise and than BAM out of nowhere you're dead because some player you could not see kills you.

 

you have some interesting idea's there, just not very practical

 

Discussing your griefing possibilities concerns:

 

"Some guy hiding with a silenced sniper could really f*ck up your day" -> Not really. Firstly, he would need to locate a target. This is tough because they are not identified on the map. Then, assuming he has a target in sight, he snipes you, you would have a rough idea where the bullet came from by the bullet path mark on the map. Now you could look to counter the sniper by making your way to his position - and he wouldn't be able to see you coming!
 

"making a lot of noise and some player kills you." That's the whole point. If you make noise, you are bringing attention to yourself. This is your personal choice. Currently you don't have this choice - you are constantly available to all players.

 

Ren - will take a look at your LoS suggestions...


Ren Fujin
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#34

Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:02 PM

Yeah, most people thinking "no blips" mechanics would help trolls have an easier time harassing other players tend to forget it would make it much harder to actually find people to harass than it is now.

Yes, you would still get harassed. But it would happen far less often than now because of how trickier it would be. Even if the guy managed to find you once, there's chances he wouldn't go at it again repeatedly because of all the work it would require within a no blip mechanic.


DaCosta
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#35

Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:05 PM

 

I'm agreeing with your updated version 99%, DaCosta.
... but I'm still unsure about the Line of Sight mechanic. It does sound cool and all, but doesn't it kinda defeat the purpose of having no blips in the first place ?

 

The proposed system defines that both players will not necessarily know that they are close to another. However, a generous Line of Sight mechanic would allow one, or both players to become aware and their reaction from there would be completely up to them.
This especially ... wouldn't that have the whole thing revert back to what it is currently ?
If other players are allowed to "add" your blip to their map once they are close to you, that makes you unable to effectively blend into the world, for instance. I could see the LoS mechanic get exploited - people could just rotate the camera around until a blip appears on the map, instead of actually looking for players visually.
I don't know, it's probably because I'm more interested in mechanics that force players to ID others visually, because that would open for more immersive gameplay, such as blending in NPC crowds, changing vehicles or clothing to get away, etc. That's where our concepts part, I think. I'd be all for a blip mechanic that would only display far blips, and let close encounters entirely up to the player's ability to identify the other player visually, without being able to rely on a blip.
 
The rest of your suggestions I definitely agree with, though :)

 

Thanks again for the feedback and I really like the principle of total immersion, face and clothes recognition and crowd blending.

 

But the reason I'd personally stick with Line of Sight blips is because, as a user suggested in another post, GTA:O is not a FPS. It's a bit tricky to identify players on the screen (let alone their actual character models) without them being labelled by the game and marked on the map.

 

For this reason I think a compromise has to be met whereby the game marks players on the map if they are in front of you, and in your vision, and also to be fairly generous about it. I think Death Match already does this.

 

I don't think rotating the camera should identify blips as much as your character model actually facing in the specific direction. So if you are driving along you would only "see" what comes from in front of you.
 

I think the result would be that people could follow you in a vehicle without you necessarily knowing, and they could walk up behind you, if they were stealthy enough, but they couldn't hide in a crowd if you stared at it.

 

If it was easy to program, a mechanism to decrease the chance of your blip being identified if you are in cover or at higher ground etc would be ideal, I think.

 

My worry is, that without the Line of Sight, you just wouldn't "see" players at all.


Knocknuts
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#36

Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:09 PM

this is a great idea. its fun to ride on your motorcycle but some fa**ots will just run over you if they see the blip on your radar


Zwenkwiel
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#37

Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:22 PM

I'd rather just keep an eye on my minimap instead of having to worry about making noise

example, I got cops on me or am doing a gang war or something else that involves shooting

I'm making loads of noise, some other player sees me on the map but I can't see him and I can't exactly stop making noise as I need to kill npc's and such

he however can calmly make his way over to me and kill me without me ever knowing what happened

now instead of continuing play normally I again have to worry about making sound because he's nearby hiding somewhere

 

if every1 sees every1 else it's a level playing field

this system you're proposing seems to favour sneaky players.

not to mention the fact that the whole thing sounds too complicated imo

I'd rather keep an eye on my minimap and react accordingly than constantly being suprised and confused by blips appearing and dissappearing all around me.


Bunkers
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#38

Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:29 PM

this is a great idea.

 

X2. Remove the blips. Atleast make them optional or implement changes like the one OP suggested. 

 

Rockstar are you listening!?

 

Optional Blips for president!


DaCosta
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#39

Posted 16 October 2013 - 03:40 PM

I'd rather just keep an eye on my minimap instead of having to worry about making noise

example, I got cops on me or am doing a gang war or something else that involves shooting

I'm making loads of noise, some other player sees me on the map but I can't see him and I can't exactly stop making noise as I need to kill npc's and such

he however can calmly make his way over to me and kill me without me ever knowing what happened

now instead of continuing play normally I again have to worry about making sound because he's nearby hiding somewhere

 

if every1 sees every1 else it's a level playing field

this system you're proposing seems to favour sneaky players.

not to mention the fact that the whole thing sounds too complicated imo

I'd rather keep an eye on my minimap and react accordingly than constantly being suprised and confused by blips appearing and dissappearing all around me.

That's a fair point about the gang war system. They usually last a few minutes and every gunshot would be potentially alerting others to the area. However, they might join in and help you rather than shoot you? It means an additional risk to launching a gang war. Fair point.

 

As for cops chasing you, I think it's right that the tension should be upped. After robbing a store or killing someone for their money it would be exciting knowing that the longer you are in view of police, the higher chance someone might be coming to stop you. It would be even further heightened if it was after a heist, while you had masses of cash on you. You'd need to get into hiding. Avoid the police vision cones and then hide out somewhere in an underground car park or somewhere...but then maybe someone is sneaking around the area they think you are hiding in. You'd be paranoid until you get the money in the bank...if you get there! Much more exciting than anything in GTA:O currently!

 

The hidden blip system doesn't favour sneaky people. If you want money you need to take risks. Rob stores (gaining police attention), steal the import/export vehicle (gaining player attention) or kill other players (gaining local attention.) If you just sneak around, and take no risks, you will earn less money. That fits GTA style.

 

Play the game tonight and imagine how this system would work as you play. You'll find that you won't be being "noisy" most of the time - even when you're doing outrageous things!

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yhdoit
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#40

Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:05 PM Edited by yhdoit, 17 October 2013 - 08:09 PM.

I'd rather just keep an eye on my minimap instead of having to worry about making noise

example, I got cops on me or am doing a gang war or something else that involves shooting

I'm making loads of noise, some other player sees me on the map but I can't see him and I can't exactly stop making noise as I need to kill npc's and such

he however can calmly make his way over to me and kill me without me ever knowing what happened

now instead of continuing play normally I again have to worry about making sound because he's nearby hiding somewhere

 

if every1 sees every1 else it's a level playing field

this system you're proposing seems to favour sneaky players.

not to mention the fact that the whole thing sounds too complicated imo

I'd rather keep an eye on my minimap and react accordingly than constantly being suprised and confused by blips appearing and dissappearing all around me.

 

see this is the exact reason why i think it would be a good thing. it means people can plot against you or interrupt your schemes in a much more dynamic way and you have to put thought into carrying out a heist or robbery or whatever by maikng sure you do things swiftly and in an organised way. someone would have to watch yor back in case you get attacked by another player. also it would make sneaking up on people a lot of fun.


 

you could just follow somebody for a while to get the jump on them without them noticing. at the same time if hey have the wits about them at least they will be able to get away from you without you being able to see where they are all the time.

 

 

the way things are right now it doesnt matter if youre making noise or not people are coming after you no matter what, and if you manage to kill them they will just come back 10 seconds later or somebody else will come after you. i want to be able to fend people off and then make my getaway. i cant do that the way things are now; no matter how good i am at shooting or driving people know were i am 24 7

 

 

as for the gang war thing they could add a function where anybody in the vicinity of a gang war shows up on the radar or somthing. i guess it would be good just to introduce the option to play in a session with blips turned on or off like you could in gta 4 so if you want to play in a free roam lobby where blips are always shown you can. its a small change that could add whole new variety to the game.


yhdoit
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#41

Posted 17 October 2013 - 08:17 PM Edited by yhdoit, 17 October 2013 - 08:21 PM.

also imagine how annoying heists are going to be in free roam the way things are now. they would be almost impossible. you would get killed and your money would be lost in the blink of an eye. you cant even outrun people since they know where you are all the time. i can imagine someone just waitng outside the bank with a tank ready to blow you up as soon as you step outside or some sh*t.

 

another reason i think having blips hidden would be cool is because of the stealth opportunities. so many pissibilities just creep up on somebody for a drive by or place a bomb under sombody's car follow them around for a while unoticed then blow their sh*t up when hey pick up their buddies without them even seeing you. at least you would have to put the effort into finding somebody you know is a player wich wouldnt be easy without blips/player markers.

 

in my eyes this could make gta online so much more fun. and if people dont like it they could just join a free roam lobby where the blips are always on. this sh*t has to happen!

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Ren Fujin
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#42

Posted 18 October 2013 - 12:17 AM

also imagine how annoying heists are going to be in free roam the way things are now. they would be almost impossible. you would get killed and your money would be lost in the blink of an eye. you cant even outrun people since they know where you are all the time. i can imagine someone just waitng outside the bank with a tank ready to blow you up as soon as you step outside or some sh*t.

 

I don't think that's going to be an actual issue if heists are instanced - just like missions or races, currently.

Still I agree with the no blip philosophy regardless - The game would be a much more interesting and immersive experience with no enemy blips ... man, I really hope enough players back this up so Rockstar would at least consider changing the current blip system in a future update.


DaCosta
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#43

Posted 18 October 2013 - 04:26 PM

I've updated the noise-based blip suggestion and also posted a heavily condensed version to Rockstar, here: http://support.rocks...ed-player-blips

 

Looks like the formatting went a bit wrong with the bullet points but otherwise, there it is. Please up-vote if you like it. :)

 

 

Full updated suggestion.

 

I've clarified Line of Sight, and added an "Existing Dynamics" concern after feedback from others. Thanks again. :)

 

Noise-based "blips"

 

The issue with GTA: Online's Free Roam

 

Free-roam is our central lobby to GTA: Online, where we can interact with other players and also conduct our own affairs all in an "anything goes" environment of freedom and choice.

 

At the moment, there is no privacy in GTA: Online, as your player blip is always marked for the attention of all players in your server session.

 

I feel that this alone is the cause of much of the problems people express with the game, such as griefing, spawn killing, losing too much cash from being repetitively killed, unfairly being labelled a 'Bad Sport', and an ineffective passive mode.

 

This change to the "blip" system would improve heavily on all aspects of the above criticisms, in my opinion, while also making Los Santos a much more colourful, vibrant, exciting and interesting city.

 

NB: I would expect 'blips always on' lobbies to still be available for those that prefer the hectic, all-visible style, but for the proposal below to be the default.

 

 

Proposed change

 

  • 'Blips' do not appear on the map, or the mini-map, by default.
  • Some actions result in noise. Noisy actions result in your blip being identified temporarily to those within range.
  • The louder the noise event, the wider the range that it can be detected.
  • Noisy actions include things such as sprinting, firing your gun, crashing your car or flying a helicopter.
  • Police chases are noisy actions. Your blip appears to all within range while you are within a cone of detection and "seen" by police.
  • Car crashes are a noisy action. Bumps and nicks don't show but major crashes and spin outs will display your blip.
  • Players within the local vicinity (within a certain radius of your character) can see "noise" blips during the entire noise event and for ten seconds afterwards, before they fade back to invisible.
  • Also, a player in your line of sight always shows as a blip, even if they aren't being "noisy". The game is quite generous in identifying 'line of sight' blips.
  • Line of Sight is effectively a 135 degree vision cone in front of the player, which can be obscured by objects or cover.
  • Walking, not firing your gun or making loud noise, results in your blip being invisible to all others, unless they have you in Line of Sight.
  • Loud noises go undetected if no-one is within your local noise range.
  • Crew members blips always show to other crew members.

 

Potential Issues

 

Ghost Town

 

A concern with the proposed system is that players will simply never find or see other players.

 

When you enter the game there will probably be no other blips on the map. This might make it feel like the map is empty of players and you are alone.

 

Furthermore, driving round, you may not find other players as there is no way to identify their positions unless they get chased by police or make noise.

 

To correct this, Rockstar simply need to ensure players regularly come together through the mission mechanics and key landmark locations that already exist in GTA:O. Using existing mechanics such as 'Import/Export car', 'bounties' and 'crate supply drops' gives the incentive for players to come together in a far more logical way than currently exists. If Rockstar up's the social dynamic with more mechanisms that draw people together for a tempting reward, against a calculated risk, then it will be a far more interesting incentive for PvP interaction (than just, 'harass the white blips')

 

An idea: They could make it possible for a player to set a challenge to other players to claim a reward (from their money) by marking a position on the map and daring others to come and try and collect. Game mechanics like this would allow players to be drawn into areas in free-roam while others might choose to get on with their own business. Of course, for surviving the player challenge, for a specified time limit, they might claim their reward plus the money doubled by the game.

 

Ships by night

 

When players are not making "noise" there is a concern that players will pass by each other, like ships by night - i.e. They will never meet or know they were near.

 

Currently, when another player comes near, most people move into defensive positions and both players are fully aware that the other is close.

 

The proposed system defines that both players will not necessarily know that they are close to another. However, a generous Line of Sight mechanic would allow one, or both players to become aware and their reaction from there would be completely up to them.

 

Also, if a player crashed their vehicle or made noise, it would provide awareness to other players within their vicinity, giving them knowledge of their position.

 

The Line of Sight mechanism would be key to allowing players in a very close proximity to be aware of each other but it would also allow one player to gain an advantage of sneaking up on another, or secretly following their car, which currently does not exist.

 

Rule and Dominate

 

Many players want to play GTA V to rule and dominate the map. There should definitely be an option to play on 'Always show blip' servers.

 

Additionally, players that want to cause grief to others would be welcome in an enhanced-blip server. This is because their interaction with unwilling participants would be far less prevalent due to the blip system.

 

Yes, it would still be infuriating to be shot while having a hair cut, or be trapped in an LS Customs by a stalker, but the chances of this happening diminishes by a huge amount. With less orchestrated grief, players will start falling into a false sense of comfort in Los Santos. People might not feel the need to bank so frequently, or to hide in safe-houses. They won't be frantically checking the map for 'blips' as the sole method of identifying danger...or random interactions.

 

But with free-roam set pieces and hot spots, bringing people together, players would still be able to attempt to rule and dominate the map.

 

 

Existing dynamics

 

The game has obviously already been launched and the game dynamic precedents have been set. However, R* are open to suggestions and have requested feedback to help evolve the online game, a project which they declare is something new to them and will be ever-changing for its own betterment. It is being built to last for many, many years.

 

Existing mechanics, like setting a Bounty on a player, the Import/Export vehicle and Gang Wars would need to be adjusted accordingly if the blip system was adjusted. It might not be necessarily fair on the player involved in any of these activities if their blip was shown as a constant noise event. In these circumstances, they could perhaps view all blips within their own locality too but there could also be better, more intelligent ways to adjust these player interaction events.

 

Events like Lester hiding your blip could become Lester revealing a blip, for another example.

 

 

Conclusion

 

By simply modifying the blip system and encouraging people together through events and hot-spots, the game would not only improve greatly but it would heal a lot of the complaints that are aimed at this game currently.

 

The Bad Sport system could be heavily drawn back. Far less people would be upset with their personal car being destroyed, by being spawn killed, or by being killed over and over again and losing all their cash. This is simply because it is harder, and less likely, to cause grief of this kind. To escape grief they would be able to simply walk/drive away, leaving the aggressor to have to track them down to further incur grief, which might be more trouble than its worth. It would be an option if you wanted to fight back or not.

 

Passive mode would become unnecessary. Leave your character in a side alley, or other sensible quiet place, and it is unlikely you will be found (and killed.) Players will feel more comfortable to take those calculated risks, and to carry cash upon them as a result (particularly if R* remove banking in bank notes through an online website! Or at least have a 10% fee for banking this way.)

 

But best of all, this system would open up all new possibilities that are not present in GTA: Online currently. At the moment it is impossible to have a high-speed car chase where you actually lose your pursuer. It is impossible to surprise your opponent by flanking them in a fire-fight. You cannot sneak up on someone and mug them for their money. You cannot lay low after a high profit crime and wait for lurking players to disperse. You cannot go for a walk up Mount Chiliad without everyone watching it! All this would be possible with the specified change to the blip system and it's not that much of a major change - just modifying the current system and then tinkering with all the other mechanics, such as bounties and Lester blip-hide.

 

With a possible Next Gen GTA: Online, it is important that Rockstar get the game in shape to last for years and also the possibility of lots more players on the map. The proposed blip system above would comfortably allow 128 players to live (and die) together in the map in a world that wasn't promoting player grief, but instead, GTA-style thrills.

 


yhdoit
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#44

Posted 20 October 2013 - 12:45 PM

so when are we going to actually cntact rockstar? maybe there should be an online petition or something?


the_D4u?
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#45

Posted 20 October 2013 - 01:26 PM

This sounds fantastic! +1

umox
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#46

Posted 20 October 2013 - 03:51 PM

Absolutely brilliant can't come quick enough in my eyes thumbs up

Zeta87
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#47

Posted 29 October 2013 - 10:51 PM

  I think visible blips outside of sniper range is good.

Man, the sniper rifle's range is huge, we're talking of miles, no?

 

And you were able to snipe at far targets that were visible on your minimap in GTA IV, of course with the "far blips only" option on. If "far blips" disappear when they're 1 mile away ( if this is the sniper rifle's range ) or closer from you...it's like there are no blips at all....


ShinobiFixer
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#48

Posted 30 October 2013 - 09:59 AM

Yes to all of these.  Fix the goddamn stealth.


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#49

Posted 30 October 2013 - 10:15 AM Edited by reform, 30 October 2013 - 10:23 AM.

I've thought about this too but came to another conclusion.

 

Instead of an exact location for other players, there is a wide zone (like there are for gang attacks of for crates before they drop) that shows each players general location, and the this marker will update every 30 or so seconds, or instantly if there is an explosion or non-silenced gunfire.

 

When players get within a certain range of eachother (within the larger general area marker) they will get a more precise marker for other players, the same as the current player blips, but these blips will only show if a player is acting non-stealthy, similar to how your suggestion would work.

 

This way, people could still find eachother, but would never know exactly where other players were, and would have to use skill to be able to evade other players or get the jump on other players.

 

 

 

I also would like for players within a server to be able to join a "team", and players on the same team would always be able to see eachothers blips. By default, crews and friends would be put into the same team, but players could leave freely if they wanted, and any player can be invited to a team, or join a team if the other team members accept.


Goneinfiveseconds
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#50

Posted 30 October 2013 - 10:29 AM

I like this idea





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