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About Michael/Trevor Storyline (spoiler obv)

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mr_Tii
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#1

Posted 05 October 2013 - 11:01 PM

So what I'm led to believe from the game and dialogue between Mike and Dave the FIB man, is that Mike led his crew into the North Yankton heist 10 years prior knowing that is was a set-up/ambush.

 

Mike tipped off/told(?) the FIB (specifically Dave) about the job they were about to do and this led to one member being killed (Brad) and Mike himself being shot whilst Trevor managed to get away and go into hiding for 10 years.  Trevor assumed he was the only one who made it as Brad got locked up and Mike (and the FIB) created a false funeral for himself.  

 

Why would he do this?  He "cut a deal" with the FIB...in exchange for what exactly?  What would the FIB get out of this, Dave specifically?  I understand that Mike was a notorious criminal and that "killing" him catapaulted Dave's career.  But that's a kind of flimsy premise...

 

They cut a deal with him and set him up with a luxury mansion in the hills...wtf are the FIB getting in return?  Why wasn't he just jailed?  Why would the FIB go to through all the trouble of setting him up in a witness protection program (this was mentioned by Lester at one point in the game)?  Would he have testified against Trevor (or someone else) in court or something?  Did Mike want out of the game because of his family and wanted a new start, so to speak, and the only way to get this was colluding with the FIB in order to catch his associates (i.e Trevor, Brad)?

 

This is a terrific game, I enjoyed playing it but thinking things over, this just doesn't make any sense to me.


funkybub
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#2

Posted 05 October 2013 - 11:07 PM

He pays Dave each month as well 


Stephan90
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#3

Posted 05 October 2013 - 11:09 PM Edited by Stephan123, 05 October 2013 - 11:10 PM.

Huh, when did they say that Michael told the FIB about the robbery in North Yankton before they performed it?! (Did I miss a dialogue while driving?!) Why would he do it? The police came because of the alarm if I remember right...

 

The FIB could have given Michael witness protection because they must have thought that Trevor would try to kill Michael, because Trevor could had been afraid that Michael gave his name to the FIB.


mr_Tii
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#4

Posted 05 October 2013 - 11:36 PM Edited by mr_Tii, 05 October 2013 - 11:38 PM.

Huh, when did they say that Michael told the FIB about the robbery in North Yankton before they performed it?! (Did I miss a dialogue while driving?!) Why would he do it? The police came because of the alarm if I remember right...

 

The FIB could have given Michael witness protection because they must have thought that Trevor would try to kill Michael, because Trevor could had been afraid that Michael gave his name to the FIB.

 

Not sure what the mission name is, but it is when mike meets Steve Haines for the first time when the 3 of the FIB men are sitting outside in the cafe area.  Think it was the mission to kidnap the Azerbaijani guy being held by the Agency.  When the mission starts you get into the car with Dave and they talk about the heist 10 years ago.  From the dialogue between them 2, it was pretty clear that Mike knew it was a set-up.

 

Also, think about the prologue mission.  The chopper that was supposed to be there to get Brad, Trev Mike was "missing".  Think this also points to it being a set-up.

 

My main question is really: What are the FIB getting from Mike?  What is Mike bargaining his freedom with?  

 

I guess it is plausible that in exchange for his freedom, he is providing the FIB details about the criminal goings-on in LS...info about scores about to go down etc....But this wasn't explained in the game.  Plus as an opposite to this point...Mike himself says he has been outta the game for 10 years and is living legit...so how would he be able to get said information..

 

 

Trevor thought that Mike was already dead (the fake funeral), so it doesn't make sense that the FIB would be protecting him from Trevor.


King Kapone
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#5

Posted 06 October 2013 - 12:01 AM Edited by King Kapone, 06 October 2013 - 12:04 AM.

This plot hole bugged me for my entire playthrough and then I just gave up caring.

Witness Protection implies Michael would have acted as a witness, most likely in a court of law. The game reveals absolutely nothing in what Michael is giving the FIB in return for his freedom. He seems to have immunity too, you notice this

Spoiler
.

Somehow, Michael has more leverage over Dave than the monthly checks or taking himself off the map of high profile thieves. He had to have given the FIB more but as we've pointed out, it just isn't revealed.

What I would have preferred, and where I think this story would have worked out for the better, is..

1. Ludendorff bank job goes down as is
2. Michael and Brad both get shot but Brad succumbs to his wounds and dies
Spoiler

3. Michael turns state's witness (enter witness protection stage left) against Trevor, in order for the FIB to arrest a high profile psychopath and receive federal funding, as always seems to be their desire.
4. Trevor ends up in a North Yankton prison but gets transferred to Bolingbroke penitentiary at some point in 2012
5.
Spoiler
and so that, combined with an overall guilt for what he did to Trevor after the Ludendorff job, he assembles together a team and an elaborate plan to break Trevor out of prison.

Voila.

I mean this is GTA. It would been a believable plot. All they would have needed to do is pretend Michael couldn't fly a plane or helicopter to save his life, establish Franklin as being afraid of heights and all of a sudden you need Trevor, the experienced ex-military pilot to help you or
Spoiler
.

And the rest of the story could have played out just as it did.

I mean, sh*t, this would have also given the Bolingbroke penn a reason for existing. It's a win win and I'm not so disturbed by the glaring plot hole.


 


mr_Tii
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#6

Posted 06 October 2013 - 01:32 AM Edited by mr_Tii, 06 October 2013 - 01:36 AM.

Yeah, what you outlined woulda made more sense.  I just can't believe that Rockstar overlooked this....yeah...cut a deal with the FIB...but WHY, HOW and WITH WHAT.

 

Also, Michael is a piece of sh*t for selling out his homies just so he could get a better life for himself. Trevor shoulda popped a cap in his ass, fo' reals yo.


GustavoMota
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#7

Posted 06 October 2013 - 01:43 AM

This plot hole bugged me for my entire playthrough and then I just gave up caring.

Witness Protection implies Michael would have acted as a witness, most likely in a court of law. The game reveals absolutely nothing in what Michael is giving the FIB in return for his freedom. He seems to have immunity too, you notice this

Spoiler
.

Somehow, Michael has more leverage over Dave than the monthly checks or taking himself off the map of high profile thieves. He had to have given the FIB more but as we've pointed out, it just isn't revealed.

 

 

The reason Mike was never busted for his more recent crimes and why he has leverage over Dave is that Dave is corrupt. They both have sh*t on each other, so they both keep quiet. It's an unholy alliance.


willyum32
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#8

Posted 06 October 2013 - 01:51 AM

several things that Michael does or says in the prologue sticks out to me

 

-when they blow the vault, he says "slow and steady, T, slow and steady" Why wouldnt you hurry if an explosion goes off and the alarm is triggered

 

-when they first start engaging the cops, he says "its not supposed to go down like this"  I think he was trying to cover for himself by acting like he didnt know what was happening.

 

-when they crash their car and trevor suggests they take a different path, he adamantly says "no stick to the f*cking plan" to make sure norton finds them


jsladden
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#9

Posted 06 October 2013 - 08:14 AM

I assumed Michael gave them Trevor and Brad when he turned. I imagine they were at least roughly as notorious as Michael was. I think I remember hearing M and Dave saying that it went slightly wrong, the North Yankton job. I think Trevor and Brad were meant to be taken in or killed, and perhaps M too to keep up the facade, and once separate from T & B the FIB could relocate him/fake his death. Though Dave would want to be careful not to kill Michael when he shot him.
Though you'd think M could just give them T & B's addresses, and not have to stage a robbery just to get T&B arrested/killed...


TrevorPhilipsInc
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#10

Posted 06 October 2013 - 12:02 PM

So what I'm led to believe from the game and dialogue between Mike and Dave the FIB man, is that Mike led his crew into the North Yankton heist 10 years prior knowing that is was a set-up/ambush.

 

Mike tipped off/told(?) the FIB (specifically Dave) about the job they were about to do and this led to one member being killed (Brad) and Mike himself being shot whilst Trevor managed to get away and go into hiding for 10 years.  Trevor assumed he was the only one who made it as Brad got locked up and Mike (and the FIB) created a false funeral for himself.  

 

Why would he do this?  He "cut a deal" with the FIB...in exchange for what exactly?  What would the FIB get out of this, Dave specifically?  I understand that Mike was a notorious criminal and that "killing" him catapaulted Dave's career.  But that's a kind of flimsy premise...

 

They cut a deal with him and set him up with a luxury mansion in the hills...wtf are the FIB getting in return?  Why wasn't he just jailed?  Why would the FIB go to through all the trouble of setting him up in a witness protection program (this was mentioned by Lester at one point in the game)?  Would he have testified against Trevor (or someone else) in court or something?  Did Mike want out of the game because of his family and wanted a new start, so to speak, and the only way to get this was colluding with the FIB in order to catch his associates (i.e Trevor, Brad)?

 

This is a terrific game, I enjoyed playing it but thinking things over, this just doesn't make any sense to me.

 

 

The FIB isnt getting anything. This was a plan between him and Dave to get himself, Amanda and the kids out of the way when the sh*tstorm was gonna come down on Brad and Trevor.

 

The original plan (You can see this in the introduction mission) was to get to the helicopter. That was obviously the ambush waiting for Trevor and Brad. But the local PD jumped the gun and shot Brad and Mike. Trevor was going to make a last stand but Mike, not wanting to see Trevor get killed, told him to run.

 

The original plan was most likely to make it look like Mike was killed. But when the plan backfired and Brad actually died, and Trevor ran.

 

The only thing left to do was to keep Daves mouth shut and make Mike disappear.

 

So Dave takes the credit for busting this trio and Mike is 'fake buried'. Had the FIB been involved Mike would of went to jail as things didnt work out the way it should have. Im sure Dave took a cut from Mikes take and helped him create a new name and life in Los Santos.


jsladden
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#11

Posted 06 October 2013 - 12:59 PM

Ok so you're saying the FIB were getting ready to bust the three of them, so Dave reaches out to the one with the family (most manipulatable) and offers a deal to him... in exchange for just regular payments?

You'd assume Dave would get the glory either way, he could've even made a deal with M to get more info on the robbery, find their exact location so that he'd definitely know where to be, and then betrayed Michael anyway and all he'd lose is M's monthly payments.
Seems like a lot or work/risk for little gain on Dave's part.


jsladden
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#12

Posted 06 October 2013 - 01:16 PM

I'm not even sure that Michael got hit. You definitely see a bullet wound on Brad but M doesn't appear to have one in the cutscene. I might replay the first mission and try to get a closer look.


nworbfmail
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#13

Posted 06 October 2013 - 03:39 PM

So what I'm led to believe from the game and dialogue between Mike and Dave the FIB man, is that Mike led his crew into the North Yankton heist 10 years prior knowing that is was a set-up/ambush.
 
Mike tipped off/told(?) the FIB (specifically Dave) about the job they were about to do and this led to one member being killed (Brad) and Mike himself being shot whilst Trevor managed to get away and go into hiding for 10 years.  Trevor assumed he was the only one who made it as Brad got locked up and Mike (and the FIB) created a false funeral for himself.  
 
Why would he do this?  He "cut a deal" with the FIB...in exchange for what exactly?  What would the FIB get out of this, Dave specifically?  I understand that Mike was a notorious criminal and that "killing" him catapaulted Dave's career.  But that's a kind of flimsy premise...
 
They cut a deal with him and set him up with a luxury mansion in the hills...wtf are the FIB getting in return?  Why wasn't he just jailed?  Why would the FIB go to through all the trouble of setting him up in a witness protection program (this was mentioned by Lester at one point in the game)?  Would he have testified against Trevor (or someone else) in court or something?  Did Mike want out of the game because of his family and wanted a new start, so to speak, and the only way to get this was colluding with the FIB in order to catch his associates (i.e Trevor, Brad)?
 
This is a terrific game, I enjoyed playing it but thinking things over, this just doesn't make any sense to me.

 
 
The FIB isnt getting anything. This was a plan between him and Dave to get himself, Amanda and the kids out of the way when the sh*tstorm was gonna come down on Brad and Trevor.
 
The original plan (You can see this in the introduction mission) was to get to the helicopter. That was obviously the ambush waiting for Trevor and Brad. But the local PD jumped the gun and shot Brad and Mike. Trevor was going to make a last stand but Mike, not wanting to see Trevor get killed, told him to run.
 
The original plan was most likely to make it look like Mike was killed. But when the plan backfired and Brad actually died, and Trevor ran.
 
The only thing left to do was to keep Daves mouth shut and make Mike disappear.
 
So Dave takes the credit for busting this trio and Mike is 'fake buried'. Had the FIB been involved Mike would of went to jail as things didnt work out the way it should have. Im sure Dave took a cut from Mikes take and helped him create a new name and life in Los Santos.

It may be just me but I thought it looked like Dave who shot Brad and Michael before the local police arrived.

jsladden
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#14

Posted 06 October 2013 - 04:03 PM Edited by jsladden, 06 October 2013 - 04:09 PM.

 

It may be just me but I thought it looked like Dave who shot Brad and Michael before the local police arrived.

 

 

Yeah it's definitely Dave, it's discussed later in the game. He says that shooting Michael made his career. He has a moustache but the face looks pretty similar from the quick look you get. Almost definitely not local PD, no uniform and he's using a sniper rifle.


King Kapone
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#15

Posted 06 October 2013 - 04:29 PM Edited by King Kapone, 06 October 2013 - 04:31 PM.

You're absolutely right. It was a much younger Dave who used a sniper rifle to shoot Brad and Mike, not the local PD.

Anyhow, it still doesn't make any sense. In order to be approved for Witness Protection, you need to have something to exchange with the federal government. Usually, it is your testimony in court against a target the government is looking to prosecute.

Dave has literally no pull within the FIB. He admits to this and it is indicated with how Steve, albeit his superior, treats him. So Dave certainly did not grant Mike a free pass for Witness Protection for him, his entire family, and all of the perks (like a mansion in Rockford Hills) without Michael having to give something substantial in return.

And nothing substantial is indicated throughout the entire story. I feel Rockstar missed this plot hole by mistake which I suppose is fine, it happens.


edit

220px-DaveNorton-GTAV.jpg

139px-DaveNortonPrologue-GTAV.jpg178px-DaveNorton04.png

Same guy.

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jsladden
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#16

Posted 07 October 2013 - 03:39 AM Edited by jsladden, 07 October 2013 - 03:39 AM.

You're absolutely right. It was a much younger Dave who used a sniper rifle to shoot Brad and Mike, not the local PD.

Anyhow, it still doesn't make any sense. In order to be approved for Witness Protection, you need to have something to exchange with the federal government. Usually, it is your testimony in court against a target the government is looking to prosecute.

Dave has literally no pull within the FIB. He admits to this and it is indicated with how Steve, albeit his superior, treats him. So Dave certainly did not grant Mike a free pass for Witness Protection for him, his entire family, and all of the perks (like a mansion in Rockford Hills) without Michael having to give something substantial in return.

And nothing substantial is indicated throughout the entire story. I feel Rockstar missed this plot hole by mistake which I suppose is fine, it happens.

Is it definitely witness protection per se that Micael is under? Perhaps he did Dave the favour and Dave arranged to have him relocated, without M having to go to trial and testify.

This is from GTA Wiki (under Dave Norton). Pretty flawed, but without replaying the game it seems to be the best source at hand:
"...Brad dies but Michael survives and Norton allows Michael to provide information to the Bureau in exchange for a new identity, a pension and a relocation to Los Santos."
If this is true, it looks like more FIB agents than just Dave were in on the relocation. Also it looks like the FIB/Dave is paying M, which makes more sense in this kind of scenario anyway.

Dave's not a nobody within the FIB (despite what he might say), "killing" Michael made his career. He's close to Steve Haines who is quite powerful and high up enough to oversee M's relocation.

I think the simplest explanation is still that Michael was "giving" the FIB himself, Trevor and Brad.


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#17

Posted 07 October 2013 - 03:54 AM

I think that Micheal isn't really in the witness protection program. I think he is just paying off Dave to make sure everyone else thinks he is dead. Dave is corrupt FIB agent and at North Yankton was working on his own, or had a deal on the side with Micheal to fake his death. The great FIB probably think that Micheal Townley is dead as much as Brad is. Hell remember, Dave is the one that is sending texts to Trevor, don't you think that is a job dedicated to a low level agent and not someone who busted a high ranking criminal?

 

Hell the only reason why Steve and that other guy know that Micheal is alive, is cause Dave let something slip. Micheal is faking his death, so they have something on him to do some off the books sh*t.


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#18

Posted 07 October 2013 - 04:43 AM

You're right, if the FIB knew M was alive in back in the day then Dave wouldn't have gotten promoted for taking him out.

So post-Ludendorf, the FIB think M & B are dead and T is on the run. Why would they get Dave to write to Trevor? I think it's more likely that Dave organised the letters himself, I don't know why though.
 

So M gets a great deal obviously, new house and location with his family, in return for turning in Trevor and pretending he was killed by Dave, and regular payments to Dave. Dave gets the credit for killing one or two of the biggest crims in town and his career path is set, and he gets regular payments from M. I imagine Dave also helps keep M hidden when he needs to.

So M and Dave have dirt on each other, until Haines finds about about it (how?) and blackmails them both?


Chris223
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#19

Posted 07 October 2013 - 06:26 AM

I've thought about and wondered this as well.  There is like literally no explanation given as to why Michael would be in the witness protection program.  He was a witness in a trial against who?  lol.


jsladden
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#20

Posted 07 October 2013 - 09:03 AM

I've thought about and wondered this as well.  There is like literally no explanation given as to why Michael would be in the witness protection program.  He was a witness in a trial against who?  lol.

 

Yeah I think we should rule out witness protection, who would M need protection from anyway? Only the FIB/police you'd think, which doesn't really qualify as witness protection.


mr_Tii
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#21

Posted 07 October 2013 - 08:52 PM Edited by mr_Tii, 07 October 2013 - 08:54 PM.

 

I've thought about and wondered this as well.  There is like literally no explanation given as to why Michael would be in the witness protection program.  He was a witness in a trial against who?  lol.

 

Yeah I think we should rule out witness protection, who would M need protection from anyway? Only the FIB/police you'd think, which doesn't really qualify as witness protection.

 

On the mission that Mike calls up Lester again and goes to meet him for the "first" time, during the car ride you can deduce that Lester already knew Mike wasn't dead and has been digging around about info on Mike himself.  He mentions something along the lines that Mike was in "WPP" i.e Witness Protection Program and that he makes regular monthly payments to Dave around 6 figures mark (or was it 5?).  Anyway, this is where I thought that Mike was in protection, cos Lester pretty much knows the dirt on everyone.

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