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Why your un-damaged aircraft's engines stop working

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DaRkL3AD3R
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#31

Posted 30 September 2013 - 04:19 AM

Oh look a case of someone thinking the game is more realistic then it really is... Sound like my father..

 

<3 :^:

 

OP, no. Just, no.

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iTz-JoNeSy
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#32

Posted 30 September 2013 - 06:11 AM

This is true I've pulled negative Gs in the laser for 5 mins straight and eventually it stops working and you craSh


No it is not. I did all knife flights and under the bridge stunts with my jet in one go. The engine stayed working fine. You can stall the engine if you break too long, but that's it.

iTz-JoNeSy
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#33

Posted 30 September 2013 - 06:15 AM

You can crash land safely with one engine out.

F-16 only has one. That's kind of why I'm curious. Multi-engine I understand pretty well. I've talked to some Chinook pilots about what their options are in case of engine failure. That was quite interesting. Though, a bit off topic here.
 

A C-130(Titan) with no engines will fall like a rock however.

Huh. Really? That thing looks like it can glide a little. But maybe it's heavier than it looks. I guess it's about the same as a 747 then. One engine out, you can continue flight. Two engines, you should be looking for a place to land. Three engines, you are landing now whether you want to or not. Four engines, you're a brick.

Humans have already landed planes without any engines.

K^2
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#34

Posted 30 September 2013 - 06:40 AM

Humans have already landed planes without any engines.

Of course. Flight without engines is part of standard pilot training. You don't normally go all the way through with landing for safety, but landing itself is done with almost no power anyways. Unless you are landing a deck jet, but that's a different story.

We are talking specifically about large planes. A 747 cannot land with no engines and stay in one piece. Can't be done. If the pilot's good and circumstances are really fortunate, he can probably do a landing with lots of survivors. But it won't be a safe landing by any measure.

It's all about glide ratio. 747 is about a 4. That means for every 4 feet it travels forward with no power, it will drop a foot. It will also "glide" at about 170 KIAS at that glide ratio. So you are going to be heading towards the ground at over 40 knots. Somewhere between 45mph and 50mph. Now picture what happens to a car that slams into a solid wall at 45mph. Now imagine what would happen to a 747. With head wind and good flare, you can probably get it down to something like 20-30mph. That's going to be somewhat survivable, but the plane's going to be in pieces.

Compare that to a Cessna 172. It has a glide ratio is about 9. It also has Vy of about 70 knots. So it will be heading towards the ground at less than 10mph. And you'll be able to halve that with a good flare. It's a rough landing, but it's something the landing gear can take, so you'll get on the ground and the plane will probably still be in sound condition.

There is an entire spectrum in between. Helicopters auto-rotate at glide ratio of 3, but their forward speed is very small and they can do a very good flare, so a good pilot will always make it a landing you can walk away from, but the helicopter probably won't fly again. (Small helicopters, trainers in particular, can make a completely safe landing with auto-rotation.) Regional jets also can make reasonable landing with no engines. Remember the landing in Hudson River not so long ago? But as you get to some of the larger planes, situation starts to look worse. Anything designed to haul a lot of weight at high altitudes and high speeds just isn't going to be very aerodynamic near the ground and at slow speeds.

Now, my question was about C-130 which looks like it should do Ok, because its wings aren't really designed for very high speeds. But another factor in glide ratio is wing loading. That is, weight the wings have to support as ratio to surface area. The loading factor for C-130 is a little lower than that of 747, but it's up there. So I guess, in retrospect, it makes sense that it wouldn't do well with no engines.
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SprunkJunkie
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#35

Posted 30 September 2013 - 09:28 AM

I stole the Lazer today, I put on fast run cheat and spawned a rapid gt, crashed the north gates.  I flew them from my hangar several times, no problems, the engine doesn't die either.


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#36

Posted 30 September 2013 - 10:20 AM Edited by JoeyTaffy93, 30 September 2013 - 10:21 AM.

You can stall the engines by holding the reverse thrust, I did it and the engines cut out.


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#37

Posted 30 September 2013 - 10:54 AM

I've noticed that if you do brake in air for a long time, the thrusters/propellers stop working, but they can be started again by pressing the "Acceleration/speed/whatever" button.


GamerPatriot
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#38

Posted 30 September 2013 - 03:39 PM

Without engine thrust, a 747-200 has a glide ratio of approximately 15:1, meaning it can glide forward 15 kilometers for every kilometer it drops. British airways flight 009 proved this when their jet flew through a ash cloud from a volcano. The ash choked out all four engines at 37,000 feet, the glide ratio helped them survive long enough until all four engines were able to restart again at 13,500 feet. They fell 23,500 feet without engine power which is amazing. Different models of 747's have varying glide ratios due to modifications to airframe. 


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#39

Posted 01 October 2013 - 02:19 AM

Without engine thrust, a 747-200 has a glide ratio of approximately 15:1, meaning it can glide forward 15 kilometers for every kilometer it drops. British airways flight 009 proved this when their jet flew through a ash cloud from a volcano. The ash choked out all four engines at 37,000 feet, the glide ratio helped them survive long enough until all four engines were able to restart again at 13,500 feet. They fell 23,500 feet without engine power which is amazing. Different models of 747's have varying glide ratios due to modifications to airframe.

That's at cruise altitude. Reynolds number for the same air speed is going to be very different at ground level and 30,000 feet. The density increase alone would increase drag by factor of more than 3, requiring much slower glide, which then requires an increase in angle of attack to compensate... Long story short, 4:1 is pretty generous for a 747 on final.

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#40

Posted 01 October 2013 - 05:25 AM Edited by Lunytunes, 01 October 2013 - 05:25 AM.

You guys turned this page into a lecture on avionics. I'll just stick with the turbulence and crappy flight mechanics in the game :D


Hamsterbaffle
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#41

Posted 01 October 2013 - 05:37 AM

I'm pretty sure the black smoke/dead engine is the same in cars as in jets. Your fuel tank was punctured and you didn't realize it. That's all.

Crav3
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#42

Posted 01 October 2013 - 06:13 AM

I wa goimg to make a thread because a few days ago I stole a jet with trevor lol. (No cheats nor used special ability) and I was evading the jets and I got away and the engine gave out and I couldnt pull it back up.

GamerPatriot
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#43

Posted 01 October 2013 - 07:23 AM

I'm pretty sure the black smoke/dead engine is the same in cars as in jets. Your fuel tank was punctured and you didn't realize it. That's all.

the fuel isn't stored in the jet engine, but in the wings. Plus they aren't even close enough to compare. 


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#44

Posted 01 October 2013 - 10:28 AM Edited by FasterThanYou, 01 October 2013 - 10:30 AM.

Off topic, but something cool happened to me in the Cuban 800 you use in the missions with Oscar on the radio.

 

I threw a bomb too low over a target and it damaged the horizontal spoilers in the tail of the plain. One of them was lifted 45º. The engines were fine and I completed the bombing. The plane was slow and very draggy though, it also turned right by itself constantly and it was very slow even full power all the time.

 

I thought it would be OK but returning to the base engines stopped and I got the mission failed message when plane started dropping.


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#45

Posted 01 October 2013 - 01:28 PM Edited by Hamsterbaffle, 01 October 2013 - 01:29 PM.

the fuel isn't stored in the jet engine, but in the wings. Plus they aren't even close enough to compare.

 

That's silly. You seem to be claiming that I can't be right because you know that the fuel is stored in the wings? And because cars and planes are different?

 

So you are sure that you were not shot in a wing, so your fuel couldn't have drained out? Or, you are sure you were shot in the fuselage, and therefore couldn't have lost your fuel since that's not where the fuel is stored? Hmmm. . . 

 

Listen, the first time I stole a Lazer fighter jet, the same thing happened to me. I was just flying around and then the engine sputtered black smoke and died. At first I thought I had burned it out accidentally like the OP proposes, even though that seemed really strange (and cruel on Rockstar's part) for GTA.

 

Later, I was testing how puncturing gas tanks on cars works. Have you tested this? If you shoot a hole in the gas tank on a car, then drive around, you will eventually run out of gas. The car will sputter black smoke and die, just as my fighter jet did.

 

I'm convinced that I simply took a bullet (from one of the many military dudes firing at me for stealing their jet) but I didn't realize it. Fuel ran out, engine died. Seriously, test it yourself.


GamerPatriot
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#46

Posted 01 October 2013 - 04:11 PM

 

the fuel isn't stored in the jet engine, but in the wings. Plus they aren't even close enough to compare.

 

That's silly. You seem to be claiming that I can't be right because you know that the fuel is stored in the wings? And because cars and planes are different?

 

So you are sure that you were not shot in a wing, so your fuel couldn't have drained out? Or, you are sure you were shot in the fuselage, and therefore couldn't have lost your fuel since that's not where the fuel is stored? Hmmm. . . 

 

Listen, the first time I stole a Lazer fighter jet, the same thing happened to me. I was just flying around and then the engine sputtered black smoke and died. At first I thought I had burned it out accidentally like the OP proposes, even though that seemed really strange (and cruel on Rockstar's part) for GTA.

 

Later, I was testing how puncturing gas tanks on cars works. Have you tested this? If you shoot a hole in the gas tank on a car, then drive around, you will eventually run out of gas. The car will sputter black smoke and die, just as my fighter jet did.

 

I'm convinced that I simply took a bullet (from one of the many military dudes firing at me for stealing their jet) but I didn't realize it. Fuel ran out, engine died. Seriously, test it yourself.

 

 

No, you listen ok. You arguing with someone who touches jet engines and military aircraft everyday.  Aircraft fuel tanks are self sealing. There would have to be a major size hole in the wing to lose fuel. Also since it's a single engine aircraft it takes fuel from both wings. 

 

So in your case if you were shot in the left wing and lost fuel from it then you would still have the right wing. Want more proof. A F-15 landed with one wing, with two engines feeding off of that one fuel tank. 

 

R* isn't smart enough to program actual physics of flight into this game let alone how aircraft work. 


Hamsterbaffle
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#47

Posted 01 October 2013 - 04:52 PM

 

R* isn't smart enough to program actual physics of flight into this game let alone how aircraft work. 

 

 

Uh, I am listening. And I'm not "arguing with someone who touches jet engines and military aircraft every day." I am agreeing with him.

 

That's why I'm saying its just a punctured fuel tank, like with cars. I respect your expertise, and I know you're right about how real vehicles work.

 

All I'm saying is that the behavior of the Lazer jet I was flying--when it stopped in mid-air and crashed--is exactly the same as the behavior of a car with a punctured gas tank in this game. All the details about real jets--as you have pointed out yourself--are irrelevant to the simple system Rockstar has designed.


GamerPatriot
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#48

Posted 01 October 2013 - 06:20 PM

 

 

R* isn't smart enough to program actual physics of flight into this game let alone how aircraft work. 

 

 

Uh, I am listening. And I'm not "arguing with someone who touches jet engines and military aircraft every day." I am agreeing with him.

 

That's why I'm saying its just a punctured fuel tank, like with cars. I respect your expertise, and I know you're right about how real vehicles work.

 

All I'm saying is that the behavior of the Lazer jet I was flying--when it stopped in mid-air and crashed--is exactly the same as the behavior of a car with a punctured gas tank in this game. All the details about real jets--as you have pointed out yourself--are irrelevant to the simple system Rockstar has designed.

 

Sorry, I misread what you said. My apologies. I got woken up for a appointment that didn't exist at the dentist so I was still asleep. Please forgive me. 

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mdr279
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#49

Posted 05 October 2013 - 06:13 AM

When I heard the flight school tutorial talk about engine stalling I couldn't help but laugh. I really am bewildered at how they could get something so fundamental so wrong.

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#50

Posted 12 October 2013 - 06:49 PM

I find all these facts fascinating xD

Good stuff. 

But still, if GTA V was as realistic as people made it out to be, it wouldn't really be all that fun for most now would it?

 

GamerPatriot I wonder if you play ArmA at all?

How close to realism do you think planes are in that game?

 

I know that a well placed shot can make a jet or helicopter lose fuel and drop out of the sky. But with landing it's sort of sketchy... 

With GTA V you can pretty much land a jet perfectly fine with no landing gear  :lol: so I doubt Rockstar would take into account engine wear and fuel... too realistic for an arcade game.


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#51

Posted 12 October 2013 - 08:14 PM

Are you sure it's not because you flew out of the boundaries of the map?


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#52

Posted 16 October 2013 - 07:47 AM

This actually would explain why the duster plane died on me before I could even take off.  I was having trouble keeping it in-line for take off, and kept having to stop, back up and turn, move forward and turn, move back and....  Without a single collision, it started smoking and eventually died.

 

I know it sounds farfetched, but that certainly made this believable to me.  lol

 

And they did do the "too realistic" thing in some ways with this game.  What happened to the days of treating the gamer like s/he wasn't trying to jump into a wall, but rather just find out if it was programed to be climbable...?


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#53

Posted 16 October 2013 - 09:13 AM

I've noticed birds splattering on my heli blades sometimes and wonder if this is causing your lazer to stop working. After all most animals are programed to run into you. (The coyote for example)


ten-a-penny
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#54

Posted 22 October 2013 - 01:59 PM Edited by ten-a-penny, 22 October 2013 - 02:09 PM.

Humans have already landed planes without any engines.

 

I heard that there's a pilot that, in both: a game AND in real-life (game-events was base on) had managed to land an aircraft with ONE WING! not just engine-less! (just dive and climb. you'll get speed with this way) I even found that as a drawing on dA but I forget where exactly :sui:

EDIT:

 

A F-15 landed with one wing. 

THAT was my point :^:


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#55

Posted 27 October 2013 - 02:10 PM

Even if the fuel is stored in the wings, think about how the fuel gets to the engine. You might have got hit in the fuselage which would severe the fuel pipes in certain spots.


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#56

Posted 01 February 2014 - 04:19 AM

The problem is this. Why would a little ding to the wing of a C130H Hucules cause the engines to shut and blow smoke like as if you over mixed the fuel for the priming sequence of start up. Makes no sence. But I can take Franklin's Cuban. Hit a beach umbrella. Seriously dent the wing. And the plane flys perfectly!? Or stealing a Shamel makes the engines start a flare out at 20,000 ft altitude! Really. I use flight simulator for my learning process before attempting to enter flight school in my future. So yes the damage system is f*cked up. And people are bringing it up. They seriously screwed up on this game. I thought the damage system in GTA IV was perfect. Really showed the different damage rates between the different classed vehicles. But well this HD plane damage system makes no sense. Oh and you can enter the full health and armor cheat mid flight. Just go B,RB, then pause sence while in pause menu you can continue the cheat sequence. Then put in the rest. Just click the start button or pause and your plane is fully fixed since a real pilot like I am learning to be knows. You can fix and aircraft while in air. Like with the Titan. If the engines blow black smoke you may have just simply over loaded the fuel pump so just well like I tend to do with a DC-3 I just open the cowl flaps when the engine starts getting to hot, then initiate a fuel pump dump for fuel pump or dump out. Re initiate main start up sequence. Prime for about 5-15 seconds, reinstate fuel mixer to about 80% or more dependent on air temperature, prompt the magnito switches. Alternator on all 4 engines, then gun start for all engines and you back up and gun it. A trained pilot can do that with in 30-45 seconds and keep the plane in the air. Hell a lot of pilots go through that after mid air fuel ups as a training mission while in combat. I learned the same way in a training mission in Flight Simulator 10 Advanced with a decomissioned 747-400. The engine 1 died. I was originally trying to shut the engines down with the flaps at 40 till dive down. Engine 1 wouldn't start so I had to X out that one till I had the other 3 at full power till I could play with it. Got the plane up at 18000 and I managed to revive engine 1 to at least half power till I was able to land it. Just use the full armor and health cheat in this manner to pretty much pull a Chuck Yagger with it since it's not a flight simulator. And I just think. That never happens with Trevor since Trevor is a fully trained pilot. And flight school takes from 1-4 years I until you're given full honors to handle 747-400's easily. So remember there are tricks that can keep you up in the air like I have discovered for me :-)




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