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Screw you, Rockstar... GTA V *SPOILERS*

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Drunken Cowboy
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#91

Posted 23 September 2013 - 05:53 AM Edited by Drunken Cowboy, 23 September 2013 - 05:53 AM.

Holy flip friggin hell, this cryfest is still marching on? If you guys can't handle the fact Trevor killed Johnny, then maybe you should put down the controller and do something else, seeing as if you've been crying about it for this long, you probably aren't mature enough to comprehend the reasoning behind it.

 

 

 

If you can't handle the fact that this post is still alive, probably because it's an interesting issue that concerns a lot of people, maybe you should just ignore it and post somewhere else.

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Duderson
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#92

Posted 23 September 2013 - 04:12 PM

I made this. Just for you Cowboy!

 

15cik20.jpg

 

 

 

Johnny was a god protag. Definitely one of my favorites. Although they may not have done the character justice, it is what it is. There probably isn't goinna be any resurrection DLC, if there is; well, that's great. It is true they sort of shat all over his character and I agree entirely with all the points fans of Johnny made about his death.

 

Rockstar probably killed him off to influence the climax at the end of the story; that's all I'll say, being that I wouldn't want to ruin that for anyone who hasn't beaten the game.

 

Another thing Rockstar probably wanted was to illustrate the reality of their game universe. One thing you have to remember is these characters are criminals, a criminal life; no matter how smart or badass the criminal, is a limited life doomed to an untimely and or horrible demise. If Trevor turned around and pulled a gun out of the back of his pants and shot Johnny in the head, he'd still be dead, and the terms of his death would still suck.

 

They destroyed his character while they killed him, the reasoning for it sucked. But it left its players thinking, which CAN be viewed as an achievement in a writer's eyes. At the same time Mass Effect 3 demonstrated how wrong that can be.

 

It is what it is. Johnny is dead, oh well. If you wanna give me a rebuttal; go for it, but regardless of what you say in your rebuttal, the character will still be dead.

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#93

Posted 23 September 2013 - 09:54 PM

It showed Trevor's dominance as a character and I liked the idea to be honest, I am kind of annoyed at Johnny's background story in this game though, why the f*ck would he come back to Ashley? Why? And the fact that they completely got rid of The Lost, just one mission and that was it, poof, gone.

 

And all of this happened because Trevor saw a ghost, and got into a temper tantrum.


Lee Everett
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#94

Posted 23 September 2013 - 11:04 PM Edited by GTA4 Niko Bellic, 23 September 2013 - 11:07 PM.

 

I think that killing off Johnny was actually a rather clever move by the writers. The purposes of doing so were to provide some shock value and a talking point, both of which have been fulfilled. Whether you agree with their decision or the execution or not, they've gotten people talking.

The GTA V has no motorcycle gangs is unrealistic, this game does not go forward.

 

As for the DLC, Kurt Sutter could write the script. It should unscrew death of Terry, or Clay, either make an alternative version of events.

 

 

GTA V does have mortocycle gangs. I've seen them riding a lot around Blaine County, as-well there was a random event with one. Also they are referenced on the in-game TV and News.

 

It showed Trevor's dominance as a character and I liked the idea to be honest, I am kind of annoyed at Johnny's background story in this game though, why the f*ck would he come back to Ashley? Why? And the fact that they completely got rid of The Lost, just one mission and that was it, poof, gone.

 

And all of this happened because Trevor saw a ghost, and got into a temper tantrum.

 

The Lost isn't gone. They were only a Chapter of the Lost.


stephenxiii
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#95

Posted 23 September 2013 - 11:57 PM

dry your eyes so what he got killed off big deal


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#96

Posted 24 September 2013 - 03:12 AM

dry your eyes so what he got killed off big deal


Are you reading the thread, or assuming we're bitching and crying?

Look man, were just having a normal conversation here. A conversation abou Johnny, his life, and his death. No one's crying, no one's complaining. Ease up fellow, or just don't post, please.

 

Anyway, I've been playing TLAD lately and... Well I'm enjoying it a bit more than GTA V. The characters, story, and morals in TLAD are spot on and well written. You actually care about Jim and Johnny.

Oh yeah, and who wrote TLAD and GTA V.

Like I said and many others; it was poorly written, could have been different. Nevertheless, Johnny's my favorite character, and TLAD is my favorite GTA game.
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GtaIvFanboy
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#97

Posted 24 September 2013 - 03:52 AM Edited by GtaIvFanboy, 24 September 2013 - 03:54 AM.

 

dry your eyes so what he got killed off big deal


Are you reading the thread, or assuming we're bitching and crying?

Look man, were just having a normal conversation here. A conversation abou Johnny, his life, and his death. No one's crying, no one's complaining. Ease up fellow, or just don't post, please.

 

Anyway, I've been playing TLAD lately and... Well I'm enjoying it a bit more than GTA V. The characters, story, and morals in TLAD are spot on and well written. You actually care about Jim and Johnny.

Oh yeah, and who wrote TLAD and GTA V.

Like I said and many others; it was poorly written, could have been different. Nevertheless, Johnny's my favorite character, and TLAD is my favorite GTA game.

 

Dan houser was the lead writer for both Tlad and Gta v. 


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#98

Posted 24 September 2013 - 04:01 AM

sh*t, when m friend told me that Johnny gets killed by Trevor, that just pissed me off.  When I saw him get killed, my mouth was agape and I could never find Trevor's character redeemable after that, regardless of how crazy he is...And I like crazy characters(Like Saints Row Protagonist)


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#99

Posted 24 September 2013 - 04:02 AM

Look at the bright side. Johnny and Ashley got more screen time in GTAV than Hicks and Newt got in Alien3.

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Kratos2000
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#100

Posted 24 September 2013 - 04:06 AM Edited by Kratos2000, 24 September 2013 - 04:06 AM.

Is anyone as f*cking PISSED off as I am that Johnny got killed? They didn't even give the man who broke into Alderny State Correctional a decent death.

Did it occur to Rockstar that the protagonist of a DLC purchased by millions was actually LIKED? And Clay and Terry, that was just bullsh*t overkill.

Why Johnny? There was nothing to be gained from killing him. If they are only going to have a reoccurring character on the screen for two minutes, their purpose is USUALLY to be an exciting homage to something the players loved, yet he, Terry, and Clay served no purpose other than being f*cking killed.

 

Why not kill Luis, anyway? I don't remember anyone liking the uptight, monotone, zombie douchebag.

 

f*ck you, Rockstar. That was a f*cking cheap move.

 

 

Initial venting aside... Topics arisen since this was posted...

 

- It's more or less HOW Johnny was killed, by who, in what fashion, under what circumstances, and how Johnny received it more than the fact that he WAS killed. 

 

- It's the WHY, we feel this effect could have been conveyed in the same way without the sacrifice of Johnny and his old crew.

 

- It violates everything we were meant to believe about Johnny and the Lost in The Lost and Damned.

 

- It either made Trevor a drag or completely ruined him as a playable character in GTA V. We did not get many reasons to sympathize or just like him during the campaign anyway, but this really pushed it over the edge.

 

- To a lesser extent, but still a present argument, we feel that the presence of Johnny, the Lost, and maybe even the Angels of Death would have led to a much more interesting environment in Blaine County.

Lawl, who cares? 

The WHY? it's good riddance, I can't believe you've actually liked him.

I'm happy he's gone and that the rest of the IV cast is gone, btw I like how you changed your "I"s to "WE"s.


Lee Everett
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#101

Posted 24 September 2013 - 04:39 AM

I hated this too at first, but looking back on it. I'm happy that at least I know what happened to Johnny. I would still play the Lost and Damned, since the story is amazing for a DLC.


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#102

Posted 24 September 2013 - 05:56 AM Edited by Peachrocks, 24 September 2013 - 06:02 AM.

Dan houser was the lead writer for both Tlad and Gta v. 

 

 

This actually doesn't surprise me. Dan Houser 99% of the time is a brilliant writer, but he does have some serious lapses across the series he writes, I don't know if it's him, but it would not surprise me.

 

Stuff that just doesn't make sense and feels as if it was phoned in or rushed or just done because he couldn't write a way out of the hole he put himself into.

 

Bully's ending (Gary's character in particular) is a beautiful example and the

Spoiler
is another.

 

sh*t, when m friend told me that Johnny gets killed by Trevor, that just pissed me off.  When I saw him get killed, my mouth was agape and I could never find Trevor's character redeemable after that, regardless of how crazy he is...And I like crazy characters(Like Saints Row Protagonist)

 

Agreed. Trevor did have potential and has some likeability about him, but the more I look at him, the more I think he comes off as a poorly written fanfiction character. It's not just in the killing Johnny scene, its throughout the entire story. Any redeeming quality he has or any funny moment he is gets shut down by about ten or more bad things in a similar vain. 

 

Which is incidentally why some people like him because he sums up how some people see GTA.

 

 

 

Lawl, who cares? 

The WHY? it's good riddance, I can't believe you've actually liked him.

I'm happy he's gone and that the rest of the IV cast is gone, btw I like how you changed your "I"s to "WE"s.

 

 

Clearly some people care. If it was Niko who was killed this way (and it easily could have been if we are going to apply the same out of character logic to Niko as they did to Johnny) the outrage would be far worse.

 

So you don't and others don't like Johnny and are glad he's dead, fine, so be it. However with any piece of writing or fiction, some people are going to like it/think its the best thing ever, and others are going to hate it and it works both ways here.

 

At least try to understand how the other side of the argument might feel, I know I do which is why it puzzled me for so long because generally when you do something like this you don't isolate a part of your audience so badly.

 

For example, if they release some sort of Trevor DLC later, chances are people who are disgusted by the whole thing won't touch it, so I still don't understand why they did it like this, the same people would have liked Trevor regardless if this scene was done differently or not at all.

 

Hell I won't even play the Trevor stranger and freaks content that I've paid for the character disgusts me so much.

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tjbyrum1
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#103

Posted 24 September 2013 - 02:37 PM

I agree whoever is above me.

Trevor has a lot of likability, and there were times I felt sorry for him...

But it was all ruined and overshadowed because he killed my favorite GTA character. And that makes me absolutely hate him. Hate playing as him. I won't re-beat the game solely because if him. Won't buy any DLC with him in it either. I hate him.

If Trevor killed him differently, it would not be so bad.

As an example, I really liked Jim, but Niko killed him. Disappointed? Yeah, who wasn't? But I get it, I wasn't mad, and by he end if the day I still liked Niko.

It was different with Trevor. There was a way it could have been done without leading to this 'outrage', and more would still like him.

Drunken Cowboy
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#104

Posted 24 September 2013 - 07:33 PM

If Trevor killed him differently, it would not be so bad.
As an example, I really liked Jim, but Niko killed him. Disappointed? Yeah, who wasn't? But I get it, I wasn't mad, and by he end if the day I still liked Niko.
It was different with Trevor. There was a way it could have been done without leading to this 'outrage', and more would still like him.


Also,
- Niko killed Jim before TLaD's release. Like Victor Vance, we saw it coming.

- Niko didn't know who Jim was and really didn't have much an idea of who the Lost were. It really was a "just business" thing.

- Jim wasn't a protagonist.

- It was half way through the game.

We already liked Niko, as if he was not a great, likeable character to begin with.
This was Trevor's INTRODUCTION, and we know first inpressions matter. He cowardly killed a character we liked when he didn't have to, and we REALLY can't figure out why except MAYBE for the shock value.
However, where R* f*cked up is where people like Peachrocks and I had like 1/3 (or maybe more since Michael has like NO Strangers n' Freaks missions) really soured.

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#105

Posted 24 September 2013 - 07:46 PM

When I finished TLaD years ago, I knew Johnny would f*ck up if they brought him back. I can agree that I wouldn't have had a problem with Luis being killed - his story was much less interesting. I would have rather played as Gay Tony than Luis anyday. But, Johnny obviously wasn't the man he was made out to be - the fact that he couldn't let go of Ashley or his addictions proves it. 


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#106

Posted 24 September 2013 - 08:09 PM

The only reason that they killed Johnny was because rockstar wanted to show Trevors power. And that he is so crazy that he do things like this.


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#107

Posted 24 September 2013 - 11:07 PM

Its foolish writing. im trying to be calm about it and think of a way to explain why R* did this, but there isnt a smart reason behind this. this is like them saying, f*ck you guys who enjoyed TLAD. GTA V is a better game.


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#108

Posted 25 September 2013 - 08:13 AM

If Trevor as a character embodies the spirit of GTA players who play for the sake of sheer carnage and plotlines be damned ... then , what better way than to 'precisely' have this force of rampage to annihilate a well constructed and nuanced character like Johnny Klebitz ? ...
The point is to suggest that both types of characters can't co-exist , it's like Victor Vance in Vice City Stories deeply wanting to be a good person , but then gets shouted at by just about every character , friend and foe alike , down to one of the last lines in the game when the antagonist points out that Victor is a "chump" because his wish at being  "a good guy in a bad man's game" is just plain futile ...
And this was underlined by Rockstar back in 2006 , before GTA IV and Niko's empty revenge quest ...

 

Now with GTA V it is a continuation to the above point : not only does being being a good guy in a bad man's game is hopeless , but being a bad guy in a crapsack world is 'still' not enough to survive as long as you haven't abandoned all sense of empathy ...
Trevor's ruthlessness in decimating The Lost isn't just Rockstar's point in giving the sociopath a memorable introduction , but also to underline the idea that despite all the supposed spirits and ideals the Lost wishes to pertain in "life is hard but as a brotherhood we can give the world the finger" , deep down they weren't all that nihilistic hardcore , on the contrary , they actually had 'heart' ... A misplaced sense of it perhaps , but nevertheless poignant ... and only behave as exiles just due to a lack of suitable position for them to settle in their society ...

 

Trevor only the other hand spits at them , takes advantage of them , morally ruins the Lost and Johnny , because this is what Trevor is shown to be about , the 'real' nihilistic sociopathic hardcore f-you-all attitude that the Lost imagined themselves to be ...
No dramatic standoff , no karmic end , and frankly the more I think of it I somehow wouldn't want it another way ...

 

If Billy Grey was alive he probably would have applauded Trevor for his absolute in carnage , and offer him a membership as well ...

But Billy Grey's sense of destruction just never was Johnny Klebitz's cup of tea was it ? Johnny had his fair share of violent urge within him sure , but it was always 'held back' one way or another , Klebitz wasn't a much better leader than Billy was , true , but then again why was there a civil war that erupted within the Lost ?  Because Brian convinced more than half of the gang that Johnny set Billy up ? or because more than half of the gang just never seen eye to eye to Johnny's held back attitude anyway ? ...

Johnny and his small band of what he deem 'true brothers' were the outcasts within the Lost itself , not the other way around : they were the minority in a gang that celebrated more Billy Grey's war ventures than Johnny's constant wishes of earning more money ; to put it in another way , Billy Grey is akin to the Rampage side missions for the sake of completing a in-game percentage , whereas Johnny is more like plot-structured missions ...

 

And wasn't that part of the reasoning of the Lost and Damned ? that you can't pertain to violence and expect it grows into something like a ride into the sunset ? ...
So of course Trevor kills off Johnny in such an 'empty' manner , of course Johnny behaves so out-of-character as he did , because his past experience shows that being 'in-character' lead to absolutely nothing grand , at all , and to add the tragic to it , being the opposite , being 'out of character' as a meth addict and complete trashing his own life leads to pitiful death facing a bigger and angrier fish , so there never was going to be a 'solution' to Johnny's life ...

 

Rockstar wasn't trying to piss off Lost and Damned fans as badly as it sounds , they're making a big point , Johnny and his close friends were damned not just because of lack of conformity with society or corruption spreading in the gang's hierarchy position , but they simply weren't cut-out to actually 'be' rampaging bikers ...
Their failure and pitiful death lies not in the decadence of the world around them , but because they themselves simply were not meant to 'be' in this world , at least not with their longing sense of empathy ...

 

Picture it another way : the random pedestrians players will always at one point or another run over and crush and squash to death on the sidewalks ... Let's ignore the possibility that players lost control over their vehicle or any other exterior fault , let's focus on these 'pedestrians' that got run over for no good reason ...
In this crapsack world that is the Grand Theft Auto universe , where criminals run amock and car jacking is as simple as it can be , why are there even people 'walking' in the streets and going about their lives in civilized manners ? why aren't they running around pushing people or stealing cars and causing chaos ? why aren't they behaving like the protagonists/player characters and getting rich by killing tons of of other people around them ? ...
Why aren't they all behaving like lunatics ? Why ? ...

 

It's because it's not 'who' they are , they don't behave like mass-killing player characters because they simply aren't such fellows ...

 

Same reasoning goes for Johnny being so pitifully slain by Trevor , it's to re-emphasize that Johnny Is Not Trevor , Johnny Was Not Billy Grey , Johnny was -or at least wanted to be- the outlaw with a heart for chivalry and wanted to be the thieving murderer and drug runner with noble intentions , and That simply wasn't going to work out well at all in this universe ...
Johnny was not one of them absolute menace to society and drug addicted outlaw bikers that the in-game media often portrays the biker gangs as being about , and that ends up killing him , for simply not being crazy enough , not ruthless enough , not backstabbing enough , not handling the drug addiction enough , not Unsympathetic Enough to Survive , or at least even die in a more dramatic fashion -heck even Brian and Billy had what's coming to them in ridiculously well orchestrated dramatic death sequence- ...

 

It's not just about being a good guy in a bad guy's game no more , it's that being a bad guy without being completely devoided of morals isn't going to work out either ...

 

For a game so centered around the topic of making compromises , written and released at a time where recession was at its high and compromising life values was a lurking headache , doesn't it fit to have it finally ended on such a low-level epilogue ? that the angrier and bullier wins ? and that the lesser evil dies for having made one compromises too many and barely resembles the former self ? ...

Isn't that the 'Rockstar way' after all ? ...

 

Spoiler

 

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Peachrocks
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#109

Posted 25 September 2013 - 09:56 AM

I personally don't buy it. A well thought out post sure and an interesting way of looking at it but I can't swallow it. If anything it's mostly a sense of justice that probably comes up.

 

As you pointed out Johnny and The Lost had heart, a misplaced sense of it sure  but heart and a cause they fought for and believed in. How do they end up? Destroyed by a psychopath who does what he does, just because and murders anyone he likes just because.

 

It's totally feasible sure but it triggers an unfair reaction and strong dislike of Trevor for anyone who connected to The Lost. If Trevor was the villain or antagonist we were trying to get the better of this would make sense but he is not only neither, he is one of the friggin' protagonists who is shoved down our throats to play whether we like it or not.

 

Why do it this way? Yes it could have happened in real life but this is fiction. I'm not saying write happy endings for everyone but you gotta do justice for your characters and at the very least if you don't, don't make another protagonist out to be an asshole in stomping all over previous characters like some sort of Mary Sue/Marty Stu.

 

I guess the kicker for me is that considering how deep Johnny's character is, and Terry and Clay also had a fair bit of depth to them and they end up dying to a (comparatively) very shallow protagonist who has minimal depth and is impossible to feel empathy for because he creates his own problems. Sure he is going to be liked by some people but Trevor's character is targeted at a very specific audience and basically gives the middle finger to a complete other audience.


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#110

Posted 25 September 2013 - 07:13 PM

Best part:  his brains on trevor's boots

 

LOL'd


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#111

Posted 25 September 2013 - 08:21 PM Edited by DarkKingBernard, 25 September 2013 - 08:53 PM.

@Grievous: That was a very good and interesting read, but I can't agree on the part that Johnny and his brothers (Terry, Clay and Jim) weren't cut out to be, not saying that you are wrong though.

 

With Billy in charge, there was no balance. All he wanted to do is kill everyone in his way without giving a damn for the consequences and his brothers. The Lost MC were a brotherhood after all. Whenever you walked around the Clubhouse, everyone was cool with Johnny, so normally you would think they were okay with everything (there are still people in the clubouse after killing Brian)

 

Think of that sh*tty show Hellriders, they were too calm and really a bunch of talk sh*t do nothing pussies. Billy was the complete opposite, and Johnny was the middle-ground. At least from my perspective.

 

Off topic: Are the Angels Of Death even in V?


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#112

Posted 25 September 2013 - 09:23 PM

No as far as I know. 


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#113

Posted 25 September 2013 - 09:37 PM

I rather it been niko. johnny wasnt my fav tho.  i hated luis cause he whore skinny jeans......actually i hated GTA IV i wish franklin could kill luis and Micheal kill niko. gta 4 should be completely erased. and travor is gay like really he is. the continous homo sexal comments he made made it uneasy for me to like him. then one time i spawned on him and he was wearing a frickin dress. :/


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#114

Posted 26 September 2013 - 05:16 AM Edited by Drunken Cowboy, 26 September 2013 - 05:17 AM.

If Trevor as a character embodies- 

*Snip*

Man. The way you proposed those themes and rhetoric from what was probably just poor writing on Rockstar's part is amazing. You should be a high school English teacher.


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#115

Posted 26 September 2013 - 05:20 AM

 

 

Off topic: Are the Angels Of Death even in V?

1) Nice signature. The Zombie B is my favorite after the Hexer. (Too bad it sounds like crap in V)

 

2) No, there are no AoD in Los Santos, despite trailers showing bikers with winged-skulls on their vans and red colors accenting their clothing. 

We were taught to hate the AoD in TLaD. They were supposedly just scummy, racist pricks, that had strong ties to San Fierro.
It would have made no difference to the non-fans of TLaD if they were forced to slaughter AoD with reckless abandon as Trevor, and a whole world of POSITIVE difference for the fans of it. I have no idea why they didn't use the AoD instead... or at least added them.


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#116

Posted 26 September 2013 - 06:31 AM

Lol #RageQuitLife


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#117

Posted 26 September 2013 - 07:39 AM

Folks , the fact that the in-game lore states that the Angels of Death originated from San Andreas , and yet were somehow nowhere in sight in GTAV , points out to one of the following :

 

- DLC , where you get to play as a biker from the Angels of Death : the game begins as the Angels make a return to Los Santos after hearing the news that a special someone wiped out the Lost and cleared a whole new turf for them. They go and meet this fellow to offer a membership as a token of thanks. But this special person goes crazy and decides that he just wants to steal shiny bikes. The DLC's melee fighting tutorial begins, and you get to repeatedly use Trevor as a punching bag, as well as using environmental quick time event damage, a bit of free-aim target practicing tutorial, and to conclude it all with, most importantly, as part of the Rockstar way etiquette to give 'deep' introductions to their new protagonist, this time a AoD biker, whose contrast to both the Lost and Trevor is something Absolutely detriment needed to be shown, the new protagonist ties Trevor's legs with chain on his Harley, and begins riding on the desert. Achilles' style. Also serving as the DLC's driving tutorial. And excellent time to use yet another brand new original score from Woody Jackson. 

 

- Reserved for future Grand Theft Auto on next generation platform where you get a complete full blown storyline focused on the drug dealing AoDs in San Fierro and Las Venturas. Or Vice City. In any case no more as mere DLC.

 

- And, last but not least: blame poor writing on Rockstar's behalf.

Which, honestly, could naturally be the case.

 

Spoiler

 

But back on topic ...

On one hand i'm glad that Johnny has at least the slightest closure to his story, rather than most protagonist who are just chucked out to the winds of nostalgia ...

And i'm also glad that Johnny didn't meet his end during a standard shootout gameplay sequence : if it were the case , it would have suggested that somehow Johnny was a enemy npc on-par with not just the other enemy npcs , but to the player protagonist as well , and that it was just a case of 'the better man wins' ... Personally I feel that if it were the case , it would have been even more distasteful ...

Whereas what happened is that ###### not just as a mere npc , but as a plot-related character who dies only in a cutscene ! And we all know just how much cutscenes can be the bane of video game characters ...

 

 

 

As you pointed out Johnny and The Lost had heart, a misplaced sense of it sure  but heart and a cause they fought for and believed in. How do they end up? Destroyed by a psychopath who does what he does, just because and murders anyone he likes just because.

 

It's totally feasible sure but it triggers an unfair reaction and strong dislike of Trevor for anyone who connected to The Lost.

 

Speaking of which , The Lost and Damned's first mission Clean & Serene was the first time where a plot-centered Grand Theft Auto game tasks the player in causing harm/shooting and killing people in an introductory mission ...

It was a way to put an emphasis on the difference this biker tale was going to be compare to the other would-be gangsters ... but then again , just who were you shooting at and why were you doing so ? ...

 

You were asked to shoot at rival bikers who had in their possession your boss' bike, which they did not steal, they were given as part of the trading for peace time. But your boss yells that he wants his "bike", screaming as if it was that little kid that is about to tear a house down if so much as a peck of dust lands on his bicycle. The player character has no intention to get the bike back but ends up renouncing to his beliefs and position for the 'sake of the brotherhood'.

 

At this point it's already a bit of a stretch as to how morally capable our new protagonist is, but it's a bit too early to throw conclusions. And so you drive across town where you proceed to interrogate a garage keeper.

It's a cutscene, it is not interactive, but nevertheless, my new protagonist did shoved the man's face into a spinning wheel and yell at him to "Speak, you ugly f*ck!". "Ugly", must be sarcastic, considering the garage keeper is called "Pretty Boy".

So Pretty Boy has his lips open, but your boss found that it wasn't enough, and so throw a hammer in his face and broke the nose off clean.

 

And then, our new protagonist calmly pointed out that "there was no need to do that", because, of course, shoving a man's face into a spinning wheel was harmless in comparison!

 

Alright I know Johnny didn't exactly wanted to torture the guy but was pulling out a scare tactic, but, keeping in mind with our topic at hand ... there is this parallelism between the way things pan out in Johnny's introductory sequence in Lost and Damned and Trevor's in GTAV.

 

Not on the perspective of protagonist killing another protagonist, but the one where the protagonist is potentially someone with whom we were not going to find sympathy in his plight.

 

Oh but Johnny's introductory mission isn't over yet, you then ride some more before encountering rival bikers, chillin' no less, and you proceed to blow them to pieces. We've been shoved into our mind already that when Johnny was acting president he worked hard this peace deal with the Angels of Death. And his decision to now instantly throw it all over, a huge compromise based on his angry boss' tantrum ... and you're wondering , i'm going to play with 'this' character ? ...

It's not like there was going to be branching plots either ...

 

But then somehow once the mission ended we find this air of relief , and we pulled out our cellphone and rang our contacts to hear their voice mail or to see if anyone is willing to talk. And thus you talk to Angus, Ashley, and see that you can go hang out with Clay Terry and Jim ... and then , you find it all so much more interesting to play with this character ...

 

Then the next mission sees your boss doing something outrageous again while our Johnny stands idly and watches, before proceeding to gun down the remaining witnesses, and yell out obscenities as you ride past , or ride on , their corpses and ...

 

So it's not exactly like Johnny was a psychopath who was willingly gunning down fellows he did not like ... but i'm not sure who was worse , the psychopath who behaves as he were , or the man who behaves like a mass murderer when he is ordered to ...

 

The other point I was hoping to make is that , if we consider the option that Rockstar did 'poor writing' as a fact , can we not perhaps consider that this poor writing lies best not with Trevor's introductory scene , but on the rest of his tale ? ...

I mean , in Johnnny's case it was mostly thanks to everything around him and himself as we get know better that makes most people have a chance to relate to or feel empathy with , but definitively not on the opening acts of brutal murder and torture , especially on a person who does feel it goes against his wishes ...

It's not like we were playing as Billy Grey and committing those same acts , that would have been different and easier to digest considering Billy would be doing precisely the things that goes by his mind ...

 

Now same goes for Trevor's case , it's not with his introduction that we'll go hurray on him , but on the rest of it , on what follows ... and That , was where most around here feels that it has gone sour , hasn't it ? ...

 

I'm sorry if this is perhaps deviating the topic a bit too much but I find the point nonetheless interesting : if Trevor's characterization in the rest of the game had a bit more dots of sympathy to be found , would we still be this mad and disgusted by the fact that he killed Johnny in a unjustifiable way ? ...

Are we here arguing that Rockstar killed of a protagonist in a shallow manner , or are we saying that the cost (killing Johnny) was not worth the lack of effort in making Trevor a redeemable case as the game progresses ? ...

 

Or , come to think of it , both ? ... 

 

 

 

@Grievous: That was a very good and interesting read, but I can't agree on the part that Johnny and his brothers (Terry, Clay and Jim) weren't cut out to be, not saying that you are wrong though.

 

With Billy in charge, there was no balance. All he wanted to do is kill everyone in his way without giving a damn for the consequences and his brothers. The Lost MC were a brotherhood after all. Whenever you walked around the Clubhouse, everyone was cool with Johnny, so normally you would think they were okay with everything (there are still people in the clubouse after killing Brian)

 

Think of that sh*tty show Hellriders, they were too calm and really a bunch of talk sh*t do nothing pussies. Billy was the complete opposite, and Johnny was the middle-ground. At least from my perspective.

 

Like I said I myself am not too sure if I'll always stick by my own way of thinking , but nevertheless for the moment I feel it still feels sound ...

 

One of my earlier interpretation of the Lost and Damned after completion was that it was a sad tale because it dealt with the splinter of a community that were already outcasts from general societies' communities. So , yes , I can't disagree with what you said ...

 

However , that thing about members in the Clubhouse , I always felt that it was some sort of gaming technical error or limitations: it's not possible that there were still so many people in this clubhouse , before and after the civil war , and even right before Stubbs steps in at the end , but as soon as Stubbs enters , the club is empty -on one of my playthroughs even the LCHC music did not play during the cutscene where Johnny and Stubbs coverses- and in front of the prison gate there were only two other bikers that follows you and Terry Clay ...

 

So where did the Lost lost themselves to ? ...

 

Again , I blame it on the fact that it was designed as mere DLC , and of the intrusion of the Ballad of Gay Tony , which is quite a shame because the game could have had a lot more potential ... But I think there's another topic about it , best flood it there instead of here ...

 

 travor is gay like really he is. the continous homo sexal comments he made made it uneasy for me to like him. then one time i spawned on him and he was wearing a frickin dress. :/

 

Wasn't it some sort of a running joke in the Lost and Damned when they would always joke around which biker in the group was truly gay ? ...

 

Then Ballad of Gay Tony showed up , and now Gay Trevor stomps Johnny ...

 

Rockstar Genius ? ...

Or overly long gag not funny ...

 

 

If Trevor as a character embodies- 

*Snip*

Man. The way you proposed those themes and rhetoric from what was probably just poor writing on Rockstar's part is amazing. You should be a high school English teacher.

 

 

Dude , i'm that guy Billy was suppose to hire to write about his biography along with a documentary team ...

Needless to say , I didn't got paid for my expenses ...

 

I asked for a refund from the gang's Treasurer , but he too gone off sideways in the subways ...

 

And the Vice President went off to star in a new HBO documentary: Crack in America , where he goes all day long talking about making a comeback , but we never knew just what comeback was he talking about , until we read the news last week : Corpse found with brains missing , police points to irrefutable signs that aliens exists and eats our brains.

 

 

Anywya I still have topics to create to discuss a few plot points on The Lost and Damned ...

 

Brace yourselves ...

 

Live hard , Party Harder ... Post Hard to the Core ! ...

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Peachrocks
  • Peachrocks

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#118

Posted 26 September 2013 - 11:28 AM

I laughed out loud at the first DLC comment I really did... AoD not being in the game makes absolutely zero sense. I'd thought of numerous shall we say 'things' to get back at Trevor but making him a punching bag and subject of torture for the sake of introducing a new protagonist. Comical. 

 

As for Johnny dying in as an NPC character, this is how Terry and Clay got killed off and Jim for that matter. It was bad but how Johnny died was far worse from a readers perspective. However I more meant structuring the whole situation more differently, it could have been in game as NPC or a cutscene it's the circumstances that's left people so pissed off.

 

On Johnny torturing Pretty Boy at the start of TLAD he didn't want to do that but felt he had to in order to keep peace. He obviously can't tell Pretty Boy 'sorry I don't want to do this'. He wanted to appease Billy for the time being and felt that maybe once his 'thirst' had been satisfied he'd back off so went against what he believed in. Furthermore he was caught between a rock and a hard place.

 

If he sided with honoring the truce, he would have found himself out of the Lost and very unpopular very quickly and unable to protect the people he cared about. There's no damn way that's a viable option and that's how I saw it at the start and that's how I see it now.  As it was Johnny's 'peace keeping' mentality gave him serious problems with Billy, if he went much further then what he did Billy would have attempted to kill him far sooner.

 

Trevor's character DOES have dots of reasons to feel empathy for him throughout the story, but because of the first thing he does, it's incredibly hard to feel sympathy for him. He is one of the few game characters who I dislike who actually has a personality and effort put into his character It's just that one act he does at the start and one act later and his reasoning (i.e none) that overshadows any redeemable aspect of his character.

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Blacc94
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#119

Posted 26 September 2013 - 11:35 AM

Killing him actually made me like Trevor lol. Johnny didn't stand a chance.

AtomicPunk
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#120

Posted 26 September 2013 - 11:42 AM

Even if little Johnny didn't get strung out on crank Trevor would've still curb-stomped him all the same. He was a wannabe and this world is full of'em and when one of them come up against a real man, this is always the result. Just another wannabe getting put in his place. I LOL at TLAD because I'm familiar with biker gangs. Johnny was not the type of guy who would be running that sh*t and that is just a fact. Good riddance to Johnny and Ashely's vaginer.





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