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Screw you, Rockstar... GTA V *SPOILERS*

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dannyz
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#361

Posted 16 November 2013 - 08:54 AM

I don't know why they didn't just make Johnny Trevor's antagonist like the Lost keep messing with Trevor's operations and we have a real fight between the two, Trevor would have to win for the game play but they could have made Johnny jot such a little bitch.

I don't get how the Lost are everywhere in LS when we know the Alderney chapter only had like a few members, Maybe there was already a chapter in Blaine county but that is never explained. It just feels like R* just put the Lost they so we could kill them, why not the AOD? They are from there but not in the game at all.

Most of this has already been said in here, I just want to share my opinions.

I like Trevor because it's something different but I agree you can't have someone that does what ever they want and at the same time try to have a serious story.

I just feel like GTAO was the big focus and the story suffered from it, I hope this is not the direction Rockstar takes because I only play their game and they all have great stories and characters and I would just hate for them to focus more with online then story/gameplay because I am not a big online person.
Thanks for anyone who read this.

Elscoumouno95
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#362

Posted 16 November 2013 - 12:06 PM

Things you need to know about the lost.

In 2009 the war between deadbeats and Lost continue, because Lost had two chapters one in Alderney and an other in Broker. (chinatown wars)

Clay wants to make the Lost a national gang like AOD and every body taunt him, that means wa can say thay have only two chapters.

The Lost won this war because San andreas was THE deadbeats territory, their MC born in San Fierro.

In a random event a lost says that AOD are now a myth in 2013.

When you watch Steve Haines show you can see that Lost are now a national gang and deal meth throught all america.


Grievous
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#363

Posted 16 November 2013 - 08:57 PM

I almost feel sorry for actually enjoying all three: Lost and Damned , GTA V , and Trevor.

 

I don't think we'll ever find a common and agreeable 'justification' to Johnny's new portrayal, but I find it rather sad that so many fans of the Lost and Damned just simply can't get pass this scene and find at least something else to find enjoyment from in both this game and to Trevor's characteristic.

 

I liked the idea that when Trevor becomes playable the player is removed from the opportunity to return to the previous protagonists, this in turn creates a situation where you are compelled to bound with this new fellow, to explore the untamed land of Blaine County, to pass time with the new activities available, activities that are more 'singular' in terms of how it revolves specifically around Trevor, but never with friends such as one would have performed in the hang out activities. We get to spend days hunting, performing arms trafficking, searching vigorously on the map for the bail bond jumper's locations, engage into a series of more action oriented missions and fill your inventory arsenal in a small matter of time compared to how frail with Michael we were.

Up until he moves to Los Santos I had spent as much time with Trevor as I did with Michael and Franklin, I just found it enjoyable to see things from his point of view. I didn't go on to a series of erratic rampage or do anything that would supposedly 'fit' Trevor's character more than it would have fitted Michael and Franklin. I played with Trevor the same way as I play with the others, which is my own way, and my reward for it was to see how Trevor would react, through animation and dialogue, to the same things as I did with the others. And then i'm astounded with the work and effort the developers have put into the little details and elements that screams loudly 'this is what the next generation should feel like' a lot better than what the actual next generation titles appear to be. So in the same manner that I heavily appreciated the existence of the Lost and Damned even as a DLC, I'm heavily enjoying GTA V for all the things it is doing and has done Right, especially at the door step of the impeding 'new' generation of video games.

 

I don't know why it was decided that Johnny's death be implemented in such a manner, I do see a lot of mentioning of how the sequence was the sum of 'poor writing' yet never once saw an alternative being proposed -or at least an alternative that doesn't go straight into a 'meh' stance where you don't necessarily think it to be bad but at the same time don't see the point to it anyway, which may or may not be why there's also this suggestion that All should have been rewritten in the first place- Nor do I see much of an explanation as to 'Why' it is considered to be 'poor writing' to begin with, other than how it 'doesn't make sense' why this situation exists to begin with.

 

And yet how big of a point Rockstar were making regarding the decisions and actions performed by their protagonists once the player does not have control over them!

Toni Cipriani will eventually start gaining weight once the player stops playing Liberty City Stories, Victor Vance will eventually go back to drug business even if the player decided he should only operate in the protection racket, Niko Bellic will decide to step down from the criminal life regardless of whether or not the player decided to perform more cop wars or engage into illegal activities once the end credits of GTA IV has rolled, and so Johnny Klebitz will one day snap out of his mind and leave Brian's safehouse and leave for Los Santos with Ashley on his back regardless of what the player does at the end of Lost and Damned. There are simply things that we as players and viewers do not have control over, much as how we do not get to decide whether Johnny decides to steal from Ray Boccino or not.

But this perhaps all the more evident in GTA V where the protagonists In The Game Itself behaves on their own when the player ceases to control them; they change clothes, they partake in activities at times that the player can never engage in, or they perform acts of violence that the players can never replicate.

 

This is not a suggestion that the 'five years is a long time to change anyone's mind' is the best explanation as to what happened to Johnny, and yet, in a way, it also is.

Most of Johnny's fans here seems to disagree that Johnny will go back on the stances and principles he had displayed in Lost and Damned, and yet in the end i might just end up arguing that fans are mostly disappointed at the fact that Johnny did not became what fans had in mind. Had Johnny opened up shop in Blaine County and became a prominent drug lord, but without succumbing to meth himself, half of the disappointment regarding Johnny's current physical and mental state would have effectively vanished.

 

And you know what, compared to the end of Lost and Damned, seeing Johnny getting smashed until his brain emerges out of his head is in fact A Lot Less Depressing compared to the what the actual ending of Lost and Damned had proposed. One example of an interpretation would have been that nothing happens, at all. Johnny grows old, still reluctant to be part of the actual society, rambles around, curses at the decisions and events that has happened in his life, and eventually dies without any dramatic death whatsoever when he gets mugged on the street for his earrings, not even for his jacket or boots.

 

In GTA V we saw that despite having succumbed into drug addiction and became a prolonged version of Billy Grey, he still at least done his whole 'live hard, party harder, give the man the finger' life he thought so highly of. And damn, at least he finally spat out that part of being in love with Ashley while she is within hearing distance, her subsequent shock and mourning was ... fitting.

 

And this whole attitude folks around here seems to be having regarding Rockstar's decision and choices that lead to 'poor storytelling' to some, must have been somewhat confusing for Rockstar themselves.

Let's put this into perspective. When Vice City Stories came out the fanbase became convinced that it was not Victor Vance who was present in the opening of Vice City. Three years later when Rockstar launched their newswire website, they had publicly confirmed in an frequently asked questions article that it was, of course, Victor. Yet to this day, there are still a portion of fans who believes otherwise, that it just doesn't make sense. Rockstar must have thought, "how odd".

With Lost and Damned, it was often regarded as one of the more 'negative' aspect of the Episodes of Liberty City when compared to Ballad of Gay Tony, and for years it was notably still the case, up until the creation of this topic i had no idea Lost and Damned actually had a decent fanbase. In this day and age where only the more popular aspects of a game gets treated into sequels and look-alikes, it was evident that the Lost and Damned was just going to be a one time wonder.

Then, with GTA V, it turns out that references to the Lost are Abundant. It is Massive the amount of references and inclusions the Lost actually has in this game. Aside from the story missions, the Lost is referenced multiple times in the in-game news article, radio, television show, bleeter messages, Ashley even sends a LifeInvader message to Ron regardless as to how she is dealt with.

It seems like just mere small details, but aside from the argument that it is precisely the accumulation of small details that creates a bigger impression, the Lost is also Heavily featured in side missions and dialogues! There are more random events with the Lost that there are with the Ballas, Vagos and Grove Street gang combined! Not to mention these gangs don't get as much news coverage as the Lost does.

I heard that the Lost makes quite a number of appearance on the Online missions as well.

While hunting for bail bond targets as Trevor, he will often threaten his targets to surrender as the more violent alternative would have been at the end of his boot. Then, if captured alive, Trevor will repeat this statement again to the second bail jumper during the car ride, to which the man would reply "Oh yeah, i heard about that thing with Johnny K". I mean jesus christ!! How many references is this underrated dlc character and game going to have ?!!

 

It is obvious that some good amount and degree of care was given to the inclusion of the Lost in GTA V, it may not have been in the friendliest of approach, but it is still a substantial approach and inclusion, and that's A Lot from a dlc that was considered as one of the weakest GTA by the majority!

What does Gay Tony have in terms of call-back references? pretty low in comparison.

Again, Rockstar must have looked at this "Screw You" approach from the fans and said "how odd".

 

How odd indeed, the continuous killing and massacre of the Lost MC is nothing new!

Did people forget already that player's first interaction with the Lost, which was through Niko Bellic, was to kill a dozen of them? and then Niko cheekily goes to work with Johnny Klebitz, and vaguely stated that he "knew some of them" bikers when discussing with Playboy X? Aside from the two instances where Johnny is present, Niko had always engaged with the Lost by receiving orders to kill them.

Luis Lopez's sole encounter with the Lost demanded that throws dozens of bombs out of a limo and blow as many bikers as he could with every single bomb he threw!

And hell, Johnny himself in the Lost and Damned saw him gunning for the Lost brotherhood on a memorable couple of occasion, not the least of which is the ending, where after his last killing he also torches the goddamn clubhouse!

Note that i'm not speaking against Johnny's actions here, but it's a fact that we've already been killing members of the Lost for quite some time now.

 

So what is so surprising about the treatment given to the Lost in GTA V ? they're still being killed by protagonists, it's good old continuation, as things should be.

What is surprising is the amount of appearances the Lost has, which I've already stressed above.

 

They could have only included a vague easter egg, a bar with an interior in Blaine County, where no missions, side missions or activities ever took place in. A bar where you only get to discover if you been out exploring the landscape by your own good will. Nothing in the bar would have indicated that it's run by the Lost, but then there's this mural in one of them walls where a eagle statue is placed above a series of photographs, some of them carries initials and year dates, birth year and year of decease, under them. There's one for J.M., one for J.F., and one for J.K., with the second year indicating either 2008, or anything in between 2013. Next to it would have been an A.B. for Ashley Butler, with the same year as for J.K. Then, if one decides to head to backroom, next to the door reserved for Staff only, is a wheelchair.

And to top it all, the bar would have been called the Unforgotten.

 

And that would have been it, all the references to the Lost and Damned in one distant location, where no missions or trophies/achievements are ever associated in finding it and stepping foot in. Johnny Klebitz would have been dead and his death would have for us to imagine, for us to make up.

He could have been a contractor for Stubbs and then got sold off to the police where he made his final stand, or he could have missed a turn on his Hexer and slammed under a truck and died needlessly. Johnny would have been dead either way.

 

The difference here is that the Lost received huge treatment in both gameplay and narrative stance, and wasn't just left over in a 'memorial' reference.

 

They could have also made Johnny's death into a random event, where as Franklin, driving at night near the train tracks not far from home, there would have been this bald biker in a traffic jam, cursing, at himself, and giving the finger to others. He is holding his bike with one hand and holding a bottle with another. He then suddenly throws his bottle to the floor, yelling "screw this", charge his way and ram through the traffic with his bike until he reaches the train tracks. With the train horn blaring, the biker goes full throttle it towards it, screaming, and then explode upon collision. Franklin would have said something that reflected the player's reaction to the event. And that would have been it. The game then moves on, the random event is complete, and there's no aftermath to it. If the player attempted to block the biker's way, the biker would have killed off the player in an unavoidable death sequence, and if the player attempts to shoot the biker himself, this biker would have reacted even quicker and shot the player before he can finish aiming. There is no way to complete this random event other than to let the scene pan out on its own.

 

Would you have honestly preferred it that way ? ... Maybe , i'm not sure anymore , this whole struggle and debate about reaching a satisfying viewpoint for the fanbase is leading rather nowhere ...

 

I've gotten used to appreciating things that many people do not. They've been other games where i found myself to be part of small 'niche' too, whether it be on the stance of appreciating a product that only a minority does, or disliking a product that the majority approves. But at the end of the day there just never is this moment where a common ground or solution is found that will appease everyone, mostly due to unchangeable opinions.

 

Peachrocks made perhaps the biggest revelation yesterday when he said that Floyd's death among others are primary reasons as to why he dislikes Trevor, not just specifically the case with the handling of Johnny.

Spoiler

 

This further caused a breakthrough, to me at least, because I personally do not see the issue with Floyd; it was obvious that Trevor wasn't going to behave nicely with him the moment he walked through his door, i'm surprised that Trevor didn't immediately grabbed him and throw him out of the window, among other pretense as for being a traceable link or sorts to the fact that Trevor made his way to Michael, or any other excuse.

 

In fact, Trevor has been relatively predictable for a supposedly unpredictable character, but i take it as a positive point. Trevor wasn't the instant berserk character he was so made up to be, he pretty much has a fair share of motivations for the actions he partakes in and the manner to which he reacts to various character. He isn't as much as a 'whining crybaby' when you take into account how his character basically pokes fun at 'Our' own supposed expectations of this genre. Specifically, when he supposedly goes whining and shouting, it isn't as much as the things he wants isn't given to him, as much as a meta-in-joke in this 'video game genre' we are all so accustomed to, where Things Have Always been delivered rather instantaneously. In the standpoint of Grand Theft Auto, rewards have always been given in immediacy, characters would happily and unquestionably employ the protagonist and operate lucrative businesses together. This is standard affair to the point where it is surprising when in GTA V we see that rewards a far less frequent, and alliances aren't always so easily struck. With Franklin we see him reacting with moaning disappointment, with Trevor we see him reacting with stupendous outrage at the fact that things are going at a different route. Even if original, it still is a different route than what we are accustomed to, so he Reflects that surprise. The berserk that follows may not have been my choice of reaction but it is his manner of reacting to his environment. And i fail to see the oddity in it.

 

His supposed "nauseating self-righteousness" angle is also something that i don't agree on. In fact, i don't even claim to understand it.

I'm not saying in this case that explanations to such claims aren't delivered -perhaps not to the point of my personal satisfaction But this would be another issue- but rather i simply don't ... understand the nauseating of it.

 

One of my other favorite video game franchise also deals with characters that are deemed despicable, and the story that is told either gives you enough element to sympathize with or simply just go along with it, because it is based on a viewpoint that one can either relate to it or not, it doesn't attempt to deliver big justification that reaches a political correctness level.

Some therefor has accused of the game and its characters of simply being of poor taste, of unable of being relatable and that insufficient effort were given to make it more easy to sympathize with. Others, well the small minority, would say otherwise.

In the end it is commonly agreed that it shall always remain a case where we remain "agree to disagree" stance. Even the developers kind of suggested that way as well, although i found it to be a clumsy thing to say.

 

My breakthrough, and potential spiritual enlightenment following Peachrocks' yesterday revelation in this topic, is that at then end it simply just as to fall back down to this level of agreeing to disagree.

Some fans of Victor Vance still rejects the idea that Vic was the one present in Vice City's opening.

Some fans of the Lost and Damned do not approve of Rockstar's recent portrayal of the Lost.

Some fans of Trevor finds this topic silly.

At least one huge fan of Lost and Damned, is also a huge fan of Grand Theft Auto V, and is also content with Trevor's characterization, and finally, appreciates the handling of the Lost in this game, even if he won't claim to understand the choosing of this manner of portrayal.

 

So what happens now then? Do we agree to disagree and leave it at that? or do we continue to discuss why we individually agree or disagree with each particular element, yet at the same time, never truly deliver a sustainable alternative?

 

Because in the meantime, i'm tremendously enjoying Rockstar's latest, and as i said in the opening, the fact that i'm having such a grand entertaining time, kind of leaves me in a odd spot with you guys ...

 

Spoiler

 

 

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Dr. Robotnik
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#364

Posted 17 November 2013 - 12:02 AM Edited by Dr. Robotnik, 17 November 2013 - 12:05 AM.

And damn, at least he finally spat out that part of being in love with Ashley while she is within hearing distance, her subsequent shock and mourning was ... fitting.

 

 

I don't want to speak for anyone else, but Johnny " still loving"  Ashley is the biggest problem I had with his characterization in this game.

 

Johnny's life at the end of TLAD was in shambles. He'd killed his brothers, torched his clubhouse, and ripped off Ray Boccino and paid for it in the worst way possible. And yet, in spite of it all, if there was just one thing he did right, it was cutting ties with Ashley. If he had any integrity left in him whatsoever, that was his last display of it, his final way of standing tall and keeping some single shred of dignity. I knew and expected that he would die an obscure and/or ignoble death (heck, I would've felt cheated if he didn't), but it would've been done more on his own terms, with no more Ashleys leeching off of him with their empty promises, and no brothers stabbing him in the back. It would be a lonely death, to be sure, but the best one he could've hoped for under the circumstances.

 

In GTAV, he threw that away. He sold out the last principle he had and got back together with her. And that made his resolute parting words in the previous game ("Not this time. You can kill yourself on your own, Ash.") and his consistently negative replies to her e-mails all just empty posturing with no spirit to back them up in the long run.

 

 Now I'm sure you could argue that I misinterpreted Johnny's character in that regard and that it's really my problem more than that of the writers, and maybe you'd be right, but I guess on some level I was disappointed in Johnny when I found out what he had become, and with the writers for making him that way. He was stupid (and actually my least favorite protagonist of the IV era just for that reason), but I still thought he was stronger than that. 

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Peachrocks
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#365

Posted 17 November 2013 - 05:03 AM Edited by Peachrocks, 17 November 2013 - 05:46 AM.

With writing you can do almost anything and present it as fact. I've explained how Johnny's motivations in gta V are theoretically possible for his character but it doesn't change the fact that it's terrible writing and leaves a bad feeling in peoples mouth. The huge response here from everyone who understands the storyline is testament to that. If they really wanted to have Johnny die by Trevor's hand, there are several better ways they could have done this.

The fact you could see that scene coming with Floyd is precisely why Trevor is so despicable. I've said before what Floyd had done for Trevor and this is how he repays him? I've actually stated this reasoning several times for my disdain of Trevor, it's not technically new.

Then you have what he did to Wade's friends for the sole reason of selfishly manipulating him to feed his own abandonment issues rather than looking within himself and trying to solve the problem. No he just blames everyone else all the while acting self righteous to Michael just for making a tough choice that could have ended up far worse for Trevor.

This self righteousness from Trevor solely exists to create tension between Trevor and Michael as to create a plot but this trait contradicts practically every action Trevor does. In my mind it just creates a character that you cannot sympathise with whatsoever. I always ask myself during the gold heist, why does Michael say they need Trevor, they don't, he only causes trouble and he's a plot device. Lamar amongst tons of other characters would have worked just as well in all honesty but no we must have our plot device.

As for the lost involvement there are two key differences to how they were handled in gta v and gta iv.

First when we kill Jim and Jason we and Niko have no idea who they are and Niko is doing a job for money. Yes Niko isn't the shining beacon of honour and greatness but his motivations far surpass Trevor. As for Luis, this is a case of self defence, The Lost are the aggressors in this case which makes killing gobs of them more acceptable.

However with Trevor and the online missions, The Lost are the defenders. They are going about their business when some dickhead kills bunches of them for extremely trivial to no reason. Trevor also knows a fair bit about the Lost at this point unlike Niko, he even pinpoints how Johnny fell from the man he was who shot up the Alderney correctional facility. Ashley and drugs, which as I said while possible, is extremely unsatisfying and there are loads of better ways it could have achieved a similar effect.

So knowing how down and out he was, knowing the man probably could have used a hug to lift the weight off his shoulders (as unsatisfying as Johnny's character is at this point) he uses that to cowardly murder him because he said no to screwing his girl. It certainly wasn't a mercy killing either because of the motive and how angry Trevor is throughout. Trevor like most little children throws a temper tantrum when told no, and only let's go of what he wants when promised a bigger piece of candy, e.g Giving up Patricia in exchange for 'the big one'.

The bottom line is there was no reason to have it written like this whatsoever. There is so much about it that feels completely wrong including Johnny's own character model.

 

Edit: I should add again that I wish I could enjoy Trevor's character like you do Grievous but I find it all extremely difficult to swallow.

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Grievous
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#366

Posted 17 November 2013 - 01:55 PM

Well ... no, from my perception of things Trevor did not took advantage of Johnny's weakness and proceeded to kill him off on the basis that he said "no" to him regarding Ashley. Trevor un-shamelessly knocks off Johnny because he was nagging him 'about' Ashley whereas Trevor himself is having his emotional breakdown regarding Michael's dead man resurrection, and the issue with 'Ashley' is basically a non-issue to Trevor compared to the fact that his past nine years of grief was for naught.

It's like that scene towards the end of Lost and Damned when Ashley brings to Johnny the news that Jim is dead, but then, she starts talking about her relationship with Johnny again and how it can still be saved or whatever, and this just doesn't sit well with Johnny's current state of mind at the moment, so he tells her to take a walk.

 

To me at least, Trevor didn't just ###### 'for the lulz', it was a simple clash of two people's different interest at a worst possible occasion.

HAD Trevor killed off Johnny in the same manner but in a different time, a time before Trevor realized that Michael is still alive, then it would have been indeed a 'for the giggles' moment and then it would have been truly outrageous.

 

Saying that the Lost are 'defenders' in GTAV is also a bit of a moot point if you simply look through the fact that it is a clash of meth dealers' interest. The Lost aren't exactly just 'going about their business' as a bunch of holy saints as they are a bunch of drug dealers in a region that is filled with drug traffickers. Trevor asks that the online players go and disrupt the Lost's economy, and so what? in every single GTA game the protagonist was always asked by one gang to go and cause chaos in another gang. It just so happens that in this case the target is the Lost MC, from which we have this biased favoritism throughout.

 

Effectively, we're mostly pissed at the fact that we can't have an alternative position of 'joining' the Lost for example and can only treat them as designated threats.

The argument about a dickhead ordering you to go cause mayhem for trivial reasons, while sound, is nothing new in the GTA universe where this is something of a natural habit from just about any criminal leader.

 

Now, back to the single player, after killing Johnny Trevor decides in a sudden twitch to go and kick the Lost and the Mexican Cartel out of Blaine County. Assuming that we did not knew about the online prequel portion where it is shown that Trevor already had many fights with the Lost, and in turn makes the scene where Terry and Clay casually converse with Trevor a bit awkward. Assuming that we did not know Trevor already had a conflict or two with the Lost, his sudden decision to go and wipe out neighboring gangs is also a result of the discovery of Michael's survival. Specifically, the fact that Michael just operated a heist, therefor still 'criminally-capable' if you will. This in turn triggers a 'need' for Trevor to compete with his ex brother in arms; if Michael is still capable of pulling efficient heists, then Trevor damn well get off his trailer van and starts putting his business on the map. And we see him deliver it in a brutal and relatively fast-paced manner, I bet that whole 'Trevor Philips Industries' thing was also made up right there and then on the spot.

I mean think about it, if Trevor is such a loose cannon and greedy for the infamous fame and spotlight, how come it took him so long to think about making himself the sole kingpin of the region?

Motivation is what I say. The motivation to get out of the confinement of the trashy trailer park life and actually go about and explore the region. All of this triggered by the realization that his ex bank robber buddy is still alive, therefor, he himself has to become fit and able, just to prove to his own ego perhaps, but nevertheless I found it to be an interesting handling of this character's post-traumatic stress or what have you.

 

Trevor's competitive edge is further highlighted when he tells to Wade the story of 'Trisha and Michelle', where in the end he says that when Michelle began to appear soft, Trisha had this idea of kicking Michelle out, but then even that opportunity is flung away when Michelle got herself killed before Trisha could perform her own necessities out. To put this in another way, even though Michelle got 'killed', which was what Trisha wanted, it wasn't Trisha who 'delivered' the killing.

Therefor, Trisha had her victory stolen.

 

And as sick and deranged it may be, I actually find it to be a rather sound motivation.

I'm not much of an online player, but I sure did heard a bit of this whole someone 'stole my kill' taunt. And as whining as it might sound, there's a fair point involved in one's preparation in delivering an objective only to have another party involved and complete the objective himself when only five percent of work remains, if we can put it that way.

 

This doesn't make Trevor a saint or an admirable character by any means, but in terms of building motivation and securing that through the acting deliver and dialogue writing, he is perhaps the most sounding 'complete' protagonist character Rockstar has created.

 

Often it is repeated that a leading character has to have reasons you might want to root for or to sympathize with, I would like to add a third factor in and that's of resounding logic from the character's own perspective. I don't have to agree with what Trevor does nor do I have to consider whether I myself would have done the same, but Trevor has to have reasons to do what he does, even if those reasons are certified 'nonsense' to us viewers, it still has to be an amount of reasoning that fits the psychology of the character. 

And in that respect, Trevor was a satisfying character. He didn't made me once stop and think 'now why would he be doing that' whereas I had loads of these moments with John Marston and Luis Fernando Lopez for example. Not necessarily in the sense that I need to understand what my protagonist is doing, but there has to be a certain flow in the movement and behavior that leads from one scene to the next, and this is what I find to be present with Trevor and lacking in Rockstar's previous efforts, even with Johnny Klebitz I might add, which is partly the reason I made that monstrous gigantic fan-fiction for the extended version of Lost and Damned, to connect the dots into a more steady flow, and not have this situation where i'm supposedly required to 'make the connections' up myself.

 

Perhaps my entire biasness comes greatly from the factor that the game forbids us from taking control with Michael and Franklin again once we've unlocked Trevor, therefor confining us into following this character exclusively for the next dozens or so hours, as I've talked about earlier.

Had the game allowed us to switch characters at will, most would have probably gone back to Michael and Franklin, I know I would have gone back to Michael, not the least of which is because I just had enough money after the heist to continue the Epsilon scam! But the game makes the other characters wait in the meantime, and this appears to have been a rather awful design decisions for most of you here who simply do not want to get to know more of Trevor and go through his side missions. But to me, along with this other biasness I have which is the desensitization effect of this thread, I kind of moved on the fact that Johnny died more easily.

 

And by god, Johnny did not had a stereotypical death! You've got to get credit for them effectively creating a biker character that didn't fitted the stereotypes and finally closing the circle by giving him an un-generic demise.

 

Not agreeing with this particular demise ? well , i'm still waiting for alternatives , I've seen that other neighboring topic , I've also seen just how few the proposals are ...

And by that I mean proposals that would effectively sit well with Everyone Here ...

 

It's not going to happen. We're just going to trade one death scene for another. Unless, as stated, to re-write the whole damn thing, which would then defeat the purpose.

 

Guys i'm not being offensive, it is a great pleasure to see that there were more Lost and Damned fans than I expected it to be, and even more so fans that have a few to say or two that doesn't aim for the simplistic "it was a fun game", fans that have interpretation of the events on their own.

But ... as cliché as it might sound, I think it's best that we do not follow Klebitz's path and get stuck in a rut. We shouldn't behave like Klebitz sticking to his feelings with Ashley, we should move past it and look for other things to enjoy ourselves in.

I got past John Marston's character by taking advantage of the game's actual sandbox medium, and I got past Luis Fernando Lopez' uneventful inconsistency by treating the game as a decent third person shooter instead of another fulfilling GTA entry.

 

Or, do it like Klebitz did. Stick with Ashley, stick with it hard, and die for it.

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#367

Posted 17 November 2013 - 02:37 PM Edited by B Dawg, 17 November 2013 - 02:40 PM.

Then R* biggest mistake was letting us play as The Lost in the first place, and giving depth to their characters. Too bad we can't kill off the Grove Street Families while were at it, they were never our enemies before.

 

We were supposed to play as the Angels Of Death, well, would have been the only way to have the fans satisfied.

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#368

Posted 17 November 2013 - 02:52 PM

I know you're not being offensive, I know where you're coming from and part of me appreciates it. In the nicest way possible however, I wonder what the hell you must be smoking to have such drastic changing points of view :D.

 

True I guess you got me on the timing and him being more pissed about Michael than Johnny telling him no but there are other examples where Trevor being told no results in dire consequences. It still doesn't change the fact that he didn't go at him in a rage, he appealed to a weakness, then killed him in a rage. Okay, it's not a stereotypical death but sometimes stereotypes aren't so bad and Johnny himself broke so many of them anyway...

 

The fact Trevor often DOESN'T have a motive or reason to think 'why are you doing that?' whether a reason becomes apparent or not is why I dislike him. Yes he's easy to understand but this lack of depth is something I generally dislike and I dislike many very popular game characters in consequence for this.

 

As for 'the you stole my kill analogy', I do play some of these games and you know what I think on it when someone 'steals my kill'? Nothing. I couldn't care less and most people who think things through realize their own self worth shouldn't be based on a statistic or settling scores. Further I can't see it that way in any case and the whole thing makes Trevor seem extremely dubious.

 

Generally when you are given a mission in GTA though you are given the idea that you have to do it for varying plot reasons. At least for reasons that are far better than anything Trevor does. There aren't any saints in the series for sure but usually the protagonist has a reason beyond 'just because' which usually is what makes up Trevor's motivations.

 

In online this isn't the case for obvious reasons which I guess makes it more 'alright' but the fact is I guess I do really identify with The Lost and a few of their members which makes me want to have nothing to do with killing them, especially killing them for Trevor. And yes, the fact we aren't given the option to do missions for the Lost instead is indeed what has me pissed. Good game play opportunity there too, Trevor gives a job, players compete to get it done or work on a counter-mission. It's just more salt into the wound on top of what Trevor already did.

 

I guess an extremely simple way of looking at it is why make The Lost the enemy in the first place? Why isolate your audience like this? You can find justification in it's storyline if you want to twist it in any numerous ways but part of the reason why people say justice is easily twisted is exactly because of this reason. You've had so many different points of view on the subject which is quite open minded for sure, but I just cannot look at it that way. It goes against so many of my own beliefs which of course creates bias but that's true for almost anybody.

 

Why build up such characters, only to tear them and their gang down in such a horrific fashion. You can analyze it like some English teacher would to try find meaning but for most of us it doesn't change the base feeling of being cheated and the fact this could have easily been prevented.

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#369

Posted 17 November 2013 - 03:13 PM

GTA V is, and always will be a big 'f*ck you' to GTA IV fans. I will always see it as such.

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#370

Posted 18 November 2013 - 01:39 PM

how would you have written the scene differently in gta 5? post in this forum: http://gtaforums.com...-5-differently/

 

i'm doing this cuz i'm bored


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#371

Posted 18 November 2013 - 02:29 PM

Just to remind you guys, Johnny was killed in a horrific way
Spoiler

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#372

Posted 18 November 2013 - 07:09 PM

Just to remind you guys, Johnny was killed in a horrific way

Spoiler

 

Though it was optional and extremely half-assed.

I originally did ending C, which was still pretty sh*t, but just to get my value out of the pathetically sparse game. I loaded the ending back up later to indulge in the cutscene.

 

Pretty funny how even Trevor was out of character for his own death, just speeding away like a maniac from one guy with a pistol.

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#373

Posted 18 November 2013 - 07:21 PM

Trevor also knows a fair bit about the Lost at this point unlike Niko, he even pinpoints how Johnny fell from the man he was who shot up the Alderney correctional facility.

 

When was this? I don't do any Trevor or Ron missions beyond Base Invaders...


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#374

Posted 18 November 2013 - 07:36 PM Edited by Peachrocks, 18 November 2013 - 07:38 PM.

This is single player, can't remember the mission title but it's the one where Ron and Trevor are in planes and Trevor threatens Ron if he beats him. They talk briefly about Johnny and Trevor answers with that.

 

Even me who despises Trevor couldn't choose to kill him because it didn't resolve the plot, it was a non ending so doesn't honestly count. It was very half arsed... Only C comes remotely close and even that honestly falls short.

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#375

Posted 18 November 2013 - 11:04 PM

i agree with the ending, it should have been a boss battle or a bit more dramatic.

what michael said about trevor was true though. "no sense of when to back off. no nothing!"

 

did you know that when you hesitate to kill trevor when trevor is in the puddle of gas, michael will say "damn it kid" and pull out his pistol and shoot his gun? then trevor burns, franklin says "that was your best f*cking friend!" and the scene plays exactly how it was if frank shoots him

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#376

Posted 18 November 2013 - 11:43 PM Edited by gnad, 18 November 2013 - 11:43 PM.

WOW!

 

Some walls of text around here!

 

wall_of_text_1664.gif

 

 

 

ANYWAY, I believe that r* will do something about this Trevor/Johhny stuff. They've pissed ALOT of ppl.

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#377

Posted 19 November 2013 - 02:11 AM

i like your optimism but i don't think it's gonna happen. there are 10000000000000000 gta online missions by ron and trevor where you f*ck up the lost.

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#378

Posted 19 November 2013 - 07:08 PM

i like your optimism but i don't think it's gonna happen. there are 10000000000000000 gta online missions by ron and trevor where you f*ck up the lost.

 

 

Made PRIOR to the game's release, presumably.

 

I hope to God he's right though. I think the voice of all the TLaD fans is being drowned out by all the mindless Trevor fanboys.

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#379

Posted 19 November 2013 - 07:10 PM

i agree with the ending, it should have been a boss battle or a bit more dramatic.

what michael said about trevor was true though. "no sense of when to back off. no nothing!"

 

did you know that when you hesitate to kill trevor when trevor is in the puddle of gas, michael will say "damn it kid" and pull out his pistol and shoot his gun? then trevor burns, franklin says "that was your best f*cking friend!" and the scene plays exactly how it was if frank shoots him

 

 

My friend tells me that this was actually supposed to be the game's official ending; but because Trevor was gaining so much enthusiasm from the trailers they had to make alternate endings to avoid pissing on and pissing off the fans.

Apparently they gave less sh*ts when pissing on Johnny.

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#380

Posted 19 November 2013 - 07:33 PM

Trevor is really overrated...

Johnny is 100* better than him, unlike Trevor he's got a past a better story and for a biker he is so much less stereotypical than trevor...

Trevor is just a living joke and he is so predictable for a "crazy character"...

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#381

Posted 19 November 2013 - 07:54 PM

 I believe that r* will do something about this Trevor/Johhny stuff. They've pissed ALOT of ppl.

 

A DLC would be good, but having Trevor kill yet more Lost won't help the situation and I can't see them really getting along. However, if they made a prequel series of missions with more history between Johnny and Trevor when things were calmer, that would be the only way to go about it. When Klebitz confronted Trevor, they had history, and when Trevor kills Lost members he says at one point that he's wiping out his customer base. So there was a mutual thing going on. Touching on that would also shed light on Trevor's story for his fans.


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#382

Posted 20 November 2013 - 12:00 AM

I really don't think you can have such a DLC. I think the damage done here is irreparable because of how the scene was done. There isn't an underlying motive mentioned or even hinted at for Trevor's actions and he proves time and time again he doesn't need a real motive to murder somebody for what is really a trivial to non reason.

 

Having a prequel of this would be like exhuming Johnny's corpse. Don't get me wrong, I want a magic fix to this too and have something to at least mend the damage but involving Trevor in prequel would simply do more damage because he's a non functioning character. Good for appeasing the randoms who want to be exactly like Trevor and do things with minimal to no consequences but terrible for story and Johnny and The Lost are all about story and depth.

 

I've said my own direction for DLC numerous times and I may post it in detail in time. Maybe I can make it something people can get involved with and have fun with imagination since I just cannot see Rockstar cleaning this up.

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#383

Posted 20 November 2013 - 04:45 AM

Nah, I think it's cool. Johnny deserved that. Only Tommy Vercetti is the cool guy in GTA seri.


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#384

Posted 20 November 2013 - 01:26 PM

While discussing the character of Victor Vance in another topic I remarked that ever since Vice City Stories, every Rockstar titles, whether it's GTA or not, has included a love interest to its protagonist, and it has always lead the protagonist, the love interest, or both, to a dramatic end.

 

So this whole Ashley thing must have been done to keep the dramatic trend, or something.

 

Meanwhile as for Trevor's actions ... it seriously could have been A Lot Worse ...

 

Picture this, Trevor wakes up in the middle of the night, storms out his trailer, goes howling, and feels an obligatory need to do some head stomping. Not far from home is a rowdy bar where a drunken Johnny and friends were just leaving the place. Trevor looks at it and flips his lips and tongues around, "yum yum" he says.

Hiding in the bushes, he lifts the patch of ground up with his bare hands, and sneakily approaches the bikers with his now mobile patch of bushes. Wild E Coyote style.

Once close enough, he decides to plant a huge wooden stick in the heat exhaustion pipe of Clay's bike, and douse some animal bait on Terry's bike.

With his master plan in motion, he goes "who's the boogey man" style on Johnny, and then drags him back to the mobile patch of bushes, like in that hilarious segment of 'A History on Liberty' television program in IV, when it described how venturing in middle park in the night is an ample opportunity to make everyone equal, as no matter your social position, it don't matter none to the bush-hiding hobo rapist.

 

So as Trevor goes about his business and tearing Johnny's clothes off, Terry and Clay goes screaming and hop on their bikes. Clay's bike explode upon ignition and shoots off like a fireball to the local gas station. Terry got it off easy, at least for a few seconds, as local mountain lions smell the bait and proceeds to maul and eat him alive.

 

Trevor feels sleepy now and goes back to his trailer, sitting on the toilet stool, and prepares for a good night sleep.

 

He sleeps for two days in a row, and wakes up just in time for Johnny's funeral, where the Lost spend all their hard earned drug money on the funeral service.

Trevor considers this a waste of lunch money, and rants about how the nation has gone wild on wasting expenses instead of proper health care, which he took it as a personal and monstrous offense.

 

He then hijacks the nearby train, places a good dozen of satchel charges in the front, and punches his way at full speed to derail the train and steer it in a one-way-shot across the desert all the way to Stab City.

 

Repeated checkpoint reloadings to ease the mission process later, our efforts is rewarded with a huge explosion as the off-rail train completely blows up the settlement and sending off the bikers, their trailers, and Johnny's coffin, all down the mountain ravines and river.

The explosion was such that all the way to Los Santos Michael's whiskey bottle fell off the table due to the shock wave, while Grove Street OGs go nuts on the incoming earthquake.

 

Trevor is disappointed that some of the bodies fell down to the river instead of being incinerated, as now it might cause a risk of pollution.

 

So he buys a shark online and dump it in the appropriate spot, and give the shark the dinner of his life.

 

However the shark soon chokes to death due to too many rouged leather jackets, which causes Trevor to go on to a mass hysteria, and begins shouting gratuitous profanity, and goes through such a hulk smash tantrum that he turns into a werewolf, and is hungry for some maiden's blood.

In comes Ashley in the wreckage.

 

Quick time event.

 

Spoiler

 

 


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#385

Posted 20 November 2013 - 01:36 PM

^ Agreed.
Johnnys death wasn't meant to be funny. It was to bring out the character in both protagonists.
Seeing The Lost fall apart is part of the gritty atmosphere of TLaD. Seeing Johnny, Terry and Clay killed by a unhygienic methhead in a trailer adds to the fact that a biker gang isn't strong when all your loyal members are dead.
In my opinion, R* cared about Johnny. That's why they added depth to his character in V.

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#386

Posted 20 November 2013 - 01:46 PM

Picture this, Trevor wakes up in the middle of the night, storms out his trailer, goes howling, and feels an obligatory need to do some head stomping. Not far from home is a rowdy bar where a drunken Johnny and friends were just leaving the place. Trevor looks at it and flips his lips and tongues around, "yum yum" he says.

I think I'm reading some sort of fairy tale book :lol: It was a nice read though.


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#387

Posted 20 November 2013 - 01:57 PM

In my opinion, R* cared about Johnny. That's why they added depth to his character in V.

 

Yes, I agree on this side of positivity.

 

But I can already guess that the next comment is going to be about how it either "removes Johnny's previous depth as exhibited in The Lost and Damned", or "they could have added depth in whole other ways" which basically amounts to a creative disagreement between people.

 

Like I said in one the of the walls of text above, compare the references made to the Lost in V to that made to IV and Gay Tony, and you'll clearly see which of the three had the biggest returning spotlight.

Albeit one that is always plotted against the player character, but still, they could have treated the Lost in a much more distant, tasteless, effortless and meaningless reference. They could have just shoved a easter egg in the desert where there's a dried up corpse of a biker, and only by chasing the vultures away do you see the Lost insignia on the back of the jacket. They could have just stick to occasional and random bleeter message about a biker who wants to get his meth supplies, or used the Lost in a commercial about a rehabilitation center and cure 'diseases' with such other Rockstar's blatant satire humor.

 

No, instead, there's an actual presence of these forsaken souls in the desert, both in scripted mission and as part of the real time sandbox.

The bikers travel in groups too and are known to often call for back-up, which turns a small drive by incident into a skirmish in the highway as traffic panics all around. None of such random gang violence occurs with the other cartels or hood gangster. 

 

On a side note, wasn't it noted in Lost and Damned that only the club president 'can' call for back-ups? So did the rules changed in San Andreas or it's yet another sign of the dysfunctional society they still cling on to.

 

By the way I recall that years ago there were many complaints as to the fact that the Lost clubhouse was unusable after the Lost and Damned ended, and at the time some people tried to reason with what occurred in the story, basically how it wouldn't have made sense for the clubhouse to still be operating.

 

Now, in hindsight, I wonder how those who were disappointed that a 'rebuild clubhouse' minigame didn't existed feel about now.

 

Haha. 

 

 

Picture this, Trevor wakes up in the middle of the night, storms out his trailer, goes howling, and feels an obligatory need to do some head stomping. Not far from home is a rowdy bar where a drunken Johnny and friends were just leaving the place. Trevor looks at it and flips his lips and tongues around, "yum yum" he says.

I think I'm reading some sort of fairy tale book :lol: It was a nice read though.

 

 

Well I had to cook something up at least half decent, even if it partially goes against my point.

 

The whole shark and werewolf bit was a sign of me trying to force into more randomness to get my point back on track.

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#388

Posted 20 November 2013 - 04:26 PM

 

But I can already guess that the next comment is going to be about how it either "removes Johnny's previous depth as exhibited in The Lost and Damned", or "they could have added depth in whole other ways" which basically amounts to a creative disagreement between people.

 

Yeah pretty much. I don't think it removed his depth, like I said it COULD have happened that way but it's just so unlikely. It's that whole 'feeling cheated' knee jerk reaction you are getting here.

 

It's just not a good direction to take a protagonist. Also honestly, I felt your story was better than what happened because it obviously doesn't attempt to take itself seriously as in the spirit of Trevor's character. Is it bad? Oh absolutely... is it worse? I'm not so sure...

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#389

Posted 20 November 2013 - 04:39 PM

If that story I cooked up were to take itself more seriously, it'll probably just be that part in the beginning, where Trevor wakes up in the middle of the night and felt in the mood to do some pot shots from the roof of his trailer, and basically shot the bikers without even engaging in the slightest desire to know 'who' he was shooting at.

 

Imagine that Stranger and Freak mission with Cletus, the part where you are to pop tires from the motel balcony, and instead of just shooting at random passersby, there's a convoy of bikers coming through, and you are tasked in blowing off the front tire of the leading biker. You do so and you see how the bald biker gets ejected from the shock, before an oncoming truck blares its horns and plows through the entire convoy. And Cletus laughs about Trevor's awesome shot, and then the game moves on as if nothing truly significant happened.

 

Then again ... yeah , even that didn't sounded as if it were taking itself very seriously. A bit more gruesome dark humor, but still without much consideration.


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#390

Posted 20 November 2013 - 05:58 PM

I'm sorry I didn't do that strangers and freaks mission because playing as Trevor makes me gag.

 

Instead I have Franklin run him over when I call him to meet up then char his 'corpse' with sticky bombs and grenades. Then I ask him to play Golf before hitting him with golf balls then attack him with a golf club then run him over again with the golf cart.

 

Best way to spend 5,000 dollars. Those hospital bills are totally worth it.

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