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Screw you, Rockstar... GTA V *SPOILERS*

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Drunken Cowboy
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  • Best Topic 2013 "The Identity Crisis: The Problems with V's story."

#331

Posted 13 November 2013 - 07:23 PM

SHAMELESS SELF PROMOTION!

 

I started another thread here, detailing all the element's of V's flawed story.

Take some time to read the replies, a good deal of them remark the events of Johnny's death and how bullsh*t it was.


Grievous
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#332

Posted 13 November 2013 - 11:13 PM

I ... I actually kind of liked that moment ...

 

I mean the pacing of that cutscene , the acting , the tense feeling that 'something' was going to explode yet you just don't know 'what' it will be exactly , the clash between Johnny Klebitz's emotional breakdown versus Trevor's OWN emotional breakdown is just ... well , hot damn , what a stand-off !

 

I mean there's actually some dramatic weight going on here, you've got the former no-nonsense biker who gets all pumped up over so fastidious decision he made in his life, and then you've got this bald peacock looking hobo who just realizes that his best friend, what he consider to be his brother in arm to be, in fact, very much alive. And this is a character that, the last we saw of him, dozens upon dozens of hours ago, was crushed by his inability to save his dying friend.

"I'm Not Leaving Here Without You Mickey!"

It still rings hard. The yell is ringing its way back. For nine years, this fella suffered through believing it was his fault ... and now, now that there may actually be a possibility that dear Mickey is well and alive, the emerging thoughts of all these past nine years of potential self loathing and for nothing ...

 

And then you've got this limping man in his dusty leather coat yelling at you for something that simply just isn't on the same level dramatic emotion high!

So of course Trevor kills Johnny right there and then, i'm even surprised he toys around with him a bit before letting all his guts out. The situation, the scene, the effect, it all made sense.

 

I'm not sure if it has something to do with the 'desensitization' effect of this thread if you will, but today, I thought that it was a brilliant cinematic sequence, and by far one of the most emotionally fulfilling satisfying moment that Rockstar has created.

Not once in all of Red Dead Redemption's cutscenes have I ever been so captivated by what was actually happening on-screen, for comparison sake.

 

 

So the question comes of whether or not this same sequence could have reached its same dramatic impact had Trevor killed off another nameless or newly introduced character instead.

Well, that's a good question, and yeah I still can't relatively cope that the Johnny Klebitz portrayed in GTAV is a natural transition from his original counterpart. But perhaps so, had it been a mere random angry pedestrian, it wouldn't have been this intense. Had it been a whole mob of angry pedestrian however, and Trevor casually taunting one by one before swiftly breaking three necks, stomping a couple more, tore out the clothes of another and scare off the rest? Hmmm, that might actually work too.

 

But for what we have, I was surprisingly un-disappointed by it, it was a compelling sequence to watch. Though, again, it may have very well been the desensitization effect of this thread instead.

 

I felt genuine compassion for Ashley's cries. I couldn't bring myself to hate her, or otherwise. Plus, she runs away if Trevor comes any closer to her and to dead john, I couldn't bring myself to shoot her either, although then again it may have been less painful than to die later from an overdose-suicide.

 

Seeing Clay talking during a cutscene made for a change.

What follows however is a bit ... odd ...

Why were the Lost fleeing away ? how come they just didn't pulled out their guns and shoot at Trevor and co ? ... It then hit me, this was precisely what happened Every Time to the Lost in GTA IV and Lost and Damned : think of how Jason fled away rather than stepping off his bike to confront Niko Bellic head on , or how Jim and friend thought it would be much cooler to lead a subway chase instead of pulling out a pipe bomb. Remember how Billy Grey got caught ? he tried to fled the scene and skid his bike under the rain. Brian then does the same depending on how you choose to confront him.

Johnny was perhaps the only notable one who liked to 'stand and fight', which lead to his confrontation with Trevor Philips.

 

Then again there was that scene where Johnny and Jim fled from Ray Boccino's cellar ... to this day I still believe it was a result of a writer's block somehow.

 

So in good old fashion Lost MC style, Terry and Clay dies while getting shot in the bike while ridding, joining the fates of Jason, Jim and Brian! 'Lost and Damned' the name of the gold level challenge requirement for killing off Terry and Clay while they are riding. Indeed!

 

Some things about the Lost MC's presence does raise a bit of curiosity, specifically in the way Rockstar handles of their 'comeback'.

A news article from the Liberty Tree speaks of the Lost's presence in Blaine County right after the LifeInvader mission, writing of their arms and drugs trade, this news article appears just a couple of missions before 'Mister Philips'.

A television program that gives a brief view on major gangs across San Andreas also points to the Lost at one point, notably showing off the new 'toilet cleaner' drug, and memorably enough mentioning that the Lost is a "coast to coast" operation.

 

So ... did Johnny rebuilt the Alderney clubhouse afterall ? was the Broker Chapter saved ? ...

Then again Liberty City isn't the only city in the east ... ... ...

 

VICE CITY ?!!! ...

 

Heck I've got a better one , CARCER CITY ?!!! ...

It'll definitively mix with all that gritty noise filter effect.

 

Anywya, as I said, it just kind of feels weird that Rockstar would bother creating a set-up, maybe not the most elaborate one, but still decent enough for a gang that pretty much acts as the game's local nuisance.

I mean even the Grove Street gang isn't made all that clear as to how united or disenfranchised they are.

 

And where and how did Franklin got himself Uptown Rider styled clothing?

 

   

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Wolfhuman
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#333

Posted 13 November 2013 - 11:36 PM Edited by Wolfhuman, 13 November 2013 - 11:40 PM.

The characters are not immortal, and it shows that Trevor is a ruthless maniac who doesn't care.


D- Ice
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#334

Posted 14 November 2013 - 12:12 AM Edited by D- Ice, 15 November 2013 - 09:24 PM.

The main issue I had with Johnny's indignant death is the fact that, as the OP suggested, he was portrayed as having almost super-human fighting abilities.

This is true of all GTA protagonists as they end up killing hundereds - if not thousands - of people through their storyline campaigns. Showing him as such an easily killed weakling is completely irrational and antithetic to TLAD.

 

I believe the reason R* did it was threefold. Firstly to act as the fan's much wanted previous GTA cameo, and secondly to inflate Trevor's sheer skills in being able to kill such a tough protagonist so easily. Finally it provided a nice storyline twist.

 

The first part could have been done without having Johnny killed. The second was plain ridiculous - Trevor really needed to be more than the annoying sadistic psychopath he was to be able to kill someone like Johnny (even with his cowardly surprise attack). The thrid part could have been done far better with Johnny living and acting as Trevor's big rival.

 

The killing of Johnny - and in such a cowardly surprise attack - was one of the main reasons I really disliked Trevor.

There is nothing worse than a completely immoral, despicable character that I geniunely cannot in any way sympathise with, who happens to possesses such exaggerated toughness and fighting skills.

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Peachrocks
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#335

Posted 14 November 2013 - 02:51 AM

Grevious you tell good jokes. Or it's that famous over analyzing again, where you twist your own point of view to the point where something that is complete garbage actually doesn't seem half bad while it still totally is garbage :p.

 

The irony is with Jason and 'Jim' they acted like this because back then they were irrelevant nobodies. Mooks. It's why having Terry and Clay do the same after their characters are established is so wrong.

 

As for the Uptown Riders clothes, Johnny talks to Malc about it and that was five years prior. It's yet one more reason I hope (uselessly) for Jim and Angus DLC story content. Get to see Malc and De Sean being five years ahead and being successful.

 

As for Drunken's shameless self promotion I enjoyed the read but I am not getting involved in that quote bullpoopie storm. Trevor is a failed design of a character. Period.

 

You can't just say 'he's crazy' and use that to have him do whatever he wants because he acts so self righteous all the time about Michael's behaviour. They add the self righteousness in a failed attempt to give him a character to create a narrative for but it completely contradicts everything he does. You simply cannot add a character or personality onto the 'channeled' GTA player because they don't have one! Without a personality you don't have a story...

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Grievous
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#336

Posted 14 November 2013 - 12:22 PM

Well i was rationalizing from a point of view that doesn't follow the idea that"it was just to introduce Trevor as a psycho/insane/ruthless" what have you. If anything, i've seen GTA protagonist being crazy, whereas this, the stomping of a tall meth addict, is rather low in terms of the 'senseless violence' quota past protagonist has achieved. The point is i don't buy into the argument that it was meant to be a "psychopath's introduction", because Trevor's action in this scene is driven by a clear rational. This isn't a random 'boom headshot' moment for giggles. But note that i'm looking things from the perspective of what has occurred up until this scene, not as an ensemble of what happens afterwards, because that's a different issue ... i guess. Well i remember since Lost and Damned the Uptown Riders were already into the commercialize merchandizing business. However that doesn't explain why Franklin would suddenly have a couple of outfits in his closet, considering how we always get a spam mail notification for just about anything useful, these Uptown Rider outfits just drop out of nowhere!

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#337

Posted 14 November 2013 - 12:50 PM Edited by Peachrocks, 14 November 2013 - 12:50 PM.

Personally I think there are far greater plotholes than Franklin's unexplained wardrobe :p. He has to have some clothes by default and it's a cute Easter egg that really has no bearing on anything.

 

You did however say yourself that Trevor has a clear rational in this scene and that's what's entirely wrong with his character. You can't have it both ways and Rockstar try to. You say it's not an ensemble of what happens afterwards, but the theme of inconsistency, of randomness and nauseating self righteousness despite being a complete and utter dick in every way is present in the very first scene. So it really isn't a different issue, it just makes his obvious character design flaw extremely obvious and having Johnny and Lost fans pay the price.

 

Most people and certainly Trevor's fans will see it as a boom headshot for giggles moment when it clearly isn't. You can't have narrative without rational and you can't have randomness with rational, Rockstar try to do both and it ends in a mess. Trevor's design was always doomed to fail regardless. That opening simply opened up his most obvious character design flaw.

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TaviColen123
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#338

Posted 14 November 2013 - 04:28 PM

Peachrocks, on 14 Nov 2013 - 2:50 PM, said:

Personally I think there are far greater plotholes than Franklin's unexplained wardrobe :p. He has to have some clothes by default and it's a cute Easter egg that really has no bearing on anything.

 

You did however say yourself that Trevor has a clear rational in this scene and that's what's entirely wrong with his character. You can't have it both ways and Rockstar try to. You say it's not an ensemble of what happens afterwards, but the theme of inconsistency, of randomness and nauseating self righteousness despite being a complete and utter dick in every way is present in the very first scene. So it really isn't a different issue, it just makes his obvious character design flaw extremely obvious and having Johnny and Lost fans pay the price.

 

Most people and certainly Trevor's fans will see it as a boom headshot for giggles moment when it clearly isn't. You can't have narrative without rational and you can't have randomness with rational, Rockstar try to do both and it ends in a mess. Trevor's design was always doomed to fail regardless. That opening simply opened up his most obvious character design flaw.

Yes even though millions of others disagree and say that Trevor is the best character in the series you continue with you bullsh*t just because he killed your boyfriend . I have a question, did you fanboys masturbate every time you play as Johnny in TLAD, because from the worshiping that you do here i dont know what to think ?


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#339

Posted 14 November 2013 - 04:56 PM Edited by Peachrocks, 14 November 2013 - 04:58 PM.

Yes even though millions of others disagree and say that Trevor is the best character in the series you continue with you bullsh*t just because he killed your boyfriend . I have a question, did you fanboys masturbate every time you play as Johnny in TLAD, because from the worshiping that you do here i dont know what to think ?


Ladies and gentleman allow me to present the typical Trevor fan. Note the complete inability to understand or directly respond to an argument and then uses a random childish insult to divert and avoid such an argument.

Even if millions or a majority do believe in something, it doesn't automatically make it right.
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nobum62
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#340

Posted 14 November 2013 - 05:45 PM

 

(explaining why he doesn't like trevor)

Yes even though millions of others disagree and say that Trevor is the best character in the series you continue with you bullsh*t just because he killed your boyfriend . I have a question, did you fanboys masturbate every time you play as Johnny in TLAD, because from the worshiping that you do here i dont know what to think ?

 

lol, keep crying trevor fanboy, because peach is correct :D

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devonski
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#341

Posted 15 November 2013 - 01:35 AM

I made an account mainly to put in my thoughts on this whole debacle. This will be long, but someone may feel it worth the read.

Unlike some of you, I do not hate GTA V's story. Flawed? Yes. Could have used more heist missions? Yes. Could have used more missions altogether? Absolutely yes. I have more problems with the story than just that, but that's not what I'm posting to discuss. Story-wise, it isn't perfect, but I still believe it is well done and overall good.

However, like most of you, I highly disapprove with killing of Johnny. Not simply because he was a good character (despite the vapid and ignorant claims of some who say he was whiny and/or one-dimensional), but because it made zero sense on multiple fronts.

In between TLAD and GTA V, Johnny did 3 things:

1. Moved to Los Santos
2. Got back together with Ashley
3. Got hooked on meth.

Someone previously said that Johnny doing one of those things could make sense, but not all three. I'd go so far as to say the ONLY one of those three that would make sense, and that would be Johnny and the gang moving to Los Santos. As previously stated, at the end of TLAD, out of the three GTA IV protaganists, Johnny lost the most. Niko loses either Roman or Kate (I think the Revenge ending and losing Kate was canon and makes the most sense, but that is just me), but either way, still has most of his friends, and either Roman or Kate. Luis actually has a fairly happy ending. He took out Bulgarin, saved Tony and his business, and after TBoGT, probably had a fairly stable life of helping Tony managing the nightclubs (providing they stay in business, which it was implied the club business was declining). Johnny, on the other hand, lost damn near everything. He loses his clubhouse, was forced to kill his former mentor and brother, loses his best friend, and had to fight his former brothers in the civil war. All he had left was a small amount of money (I had something around $55,000 when I beat it), Terry, Clay, Angus, and Brian's dirty safehouse. It would make some sense for Johnny and the remaining gang to want to leave the bad memories of Alderney behind and try to start over somewhere else. Even still, them moving to Los Santos raises some questions:

1. Los Santos is Angels of Death territory. Would it really be wise for them to move there? Especially if they have plans of starting the gang back up again?
2. If they do move back to Los Santos, after everything that happened, would they really want to start criminal activities again, especially as I said, Los Santos is Angels of Death territory?
3. What about Johnny making a commitment to support Jim's wife, Jackie and the kid? Maybe he could convince them to come with him to Los Santos, but then that leaves the question of whether starting up the gang again is smart. Of course he could start up the gang again in part to help support Jackie and the kid, which answers question 2, but not why they would choose to go to AoD territory. Of course, a good writer could make an explanation for it, like maybe there was already a Lost chapter there battling the AoD, and Johnny and his gang merged with it to become stronger.

But then there is Johnny getting back together with Ashley and getting hooked on meth. Those did not make any sense whatsoever. Some have argued that because Johnny had nothing left, it makes sense that he would get back with Ashley, who would in turn get him on meth. There is a glaring flaw in that theory: At the end of TLAD, after he has lost everything, he explicitedly states that despite everything, he is still anti-drugs and is done with Ashley, even though he does care about her. Then along comes his cameo in GTA V, and it's like "lol jk im a methhead and i lovez ashley." So much for a consistent plot...

His anti-drug stance pokes another hole in something else. Providing Johnny's gang moved to Los Santos, merged with another chapter, and started up crime again, after seeing what drugs did to Ashley and some of his other brothers, it is unlikely he would go anywhere near the drug trade. Gunrunning for sure, robberies maybe (it would tie into the heists in GTA V), and maybe trading some minor drugs like pot, but he would likely have his Lost chapter stay away from hard drugs. But once again, along comes GTA V and him and his gang are all "lol jk we trade meth." Because f*ck consistency. And this is all assuming he and the gang do move to Los Santos and start up the crime life again instead of quiting the life altogether.

Now assuming they move to Los Santos, there is the issue of Trevor fighting them. Unlike a lot of you, I do not hate Trevor. I do think he is a good character, and I do think that the idea of a totally batsh*t insane psycho as a character, albeit having some moral stances, is an interesting concept, and he, as well as Michael and Franklin, are all good characters. But it doesn't even make sense for Trevor to be fighting The Lost. Because as I said before, Johnny's gang might not even move to Los Santos, even if they did, they'd stay away from drugs and likely stick to gunrunning, and probably wouldn't even conflict or compete with Trevor since Trevor is mainly into meth trade, and Los Santos is Angels of Death territory. It would make much more sense to have the Angels have a huge presense in Los Santos, and big players in the meth trade, which would conflict with Trevor. It would also provide the opportunity to get to know the Angels of Death more, get more insight into their gang, since the little we know from TLAD is that they are rivals of The Lost, participate in illegal activities like The Lost, and have white supremacist tendencies.

And finally, there is the argument that Johnny needed to die to showcase how crazy Trevor is. As well, showcasing his insanity could have been done without killing the extremely out-of-character Johnny. Personally, if I had been in charge of writing the story, I would have done something like this. I don't know if any of you have seen the 1988 remake of "The Blob," but in that movie, in the beginning of the film, there is a character that is built up like he is going to be a major character and play a big role throughout the movie, only to be killed off immediately not all that far into the movie. The misleading, almost-a-main-character if you will. I would have done something like that.

Since it makes no sense that Trevor fights The Lost instead of the AoD, I would have kind of built up the AoD before introducing Trevor. Like, for example, in the hood with Franklin, maybe the Families and the AoD have a common enemy in the Ballas. So, despite their white supremacist tendencies, the AoD and the Families put that aside to fight a common enemy, have some missions working with them. While doing this, introduce a AoD character, maybe even Joe John who was mentioned at the beginning of TLAD, who is said to be a methhead, and have him move to Los Santos. Make him a likable character, show that despite being part of a racist gang, he is really not all that racist, and maybe is a "reformer" type guy who wants to drop the racist montra of the gang, making him get along with Franklin, make the audience like him, and make them sympathize with his meth addiction. Then, when it comes time to introduce Trevor, have him f*cking his girl (maybe even Ashley, as Johnny might bring her to Los Santos to try to look after her, but not get back with her, and despite his best efforts, she still dies due to the habit, and she gets together in secret with Joe John since he is also a methhead), Joe John gets mad, and when it seems like Joe John and Trevor are okay and Trevor is giving him a hug, BAM, Trevor smashes his brains in. A character that was built up to be a main, likable character, killed in a second by Trevor. That would definitely get a reaction from the audience, and perfectly showcase Trevor's insanity, without having to kill Johnny and pissing of TLAD fans. Trevor goes on a rampage killing the AoD, basically putting them out of business. Since the AoD are basically out of business, Lamar looks for new associates, and he finds one in The Lost. You can then have Franklin do a couple of missions with Johnny's Lost crew. You don't even have to have Johnny play as a major character, just do a couple of missions with him, and after that, you can also have him as a friend like Lamar, and/or have him as a heist member like Packie. You can even have him show his sadness at Ashley's death, either by Trevor or the drug orgy. But of course, that's just what I would have done.

So yeah, that was extremely long, and I apologize. But I felt like getting it out there, and someone may feel it worth the read. If you managed to get through all of this, thanks for reading lol

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Peachrocks
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#342

Posted 15 November 2013 - 01:54 AM

That wasn't as long as some of the posts on here and it was a good read and I agree with almost all of it.

 

I don't agree on Trevor being a working concept simply because of the self righteous crap he goes on with to create tension with Michael all the while he cowardly murders Johnny, planned to betray Michael before Michael faked his death and murders Floyd and the strip club owner for no reason other than to reinforce 'hey he's random and does what he likes'. These two concepts make Trevor's character and they completely contradict one another but he needed some sort of personality trait to create the story, since if he put Michael to the same standards he puts himself too, there would be no tension at all between the two.

 

As for Ashley, well, I've said it a few times but Johnny's key weakness as a character is that he cares too much and puts the weight of the world on his shoulders. He rationally knows Ashley is bad for him but instinctively looks out for her and wants to look after her. Personally I think Johnny identifies a little in the fact she's a bit of a lost cause and he knows for a fact that he is too. A man who wanted to be in the army but couldn't because of the corruption? His values go completely against that of the GTA world and naturally he gets crushed by that weight.

 

So despite his words it's not difficult for me to believe he would hook back up with her nor do I find the meth too much of a stretch either but the entire reason this thread has gone on so long is because it's not good writing and it left a bad taste in the mouths of many.

 

How Johnny's world finally crushed him though was very poorly written. There are thousands of ways you could have better wrote that scene and yours is but one. A friend who likes to friendly troll me and fool around tried to make that scene worse and it took him three tries before I believed that he had imagined a scenario more ridiculous and stupid then what actually happened and let's just say it involved something completely out of the GTA Universe.

 

As for Jackie and the kid, I personally think Jackie would take Jim's death (faked or not) very hard and would be pretty angry at Johnny and not want to accept his blood money. Yeah... I've thought about what would happen if Jim really did get away with the 2 mil of diamond money and started a new life with Jackie... yeah I went there @_@.

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#343

Posted 15 November 2013 - 02:38 AM

los santos is supposedly the AOD's home territory, yet they are never mentioned, seen or even acknowledged in the game. meanwhile, there's lost f*cking everywhere that have taken over los santos with ease, as if the AOD were never there.

lol, epic fail cockstar


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#344

Posted 15 November 2013 - 02:42 AM

That wasn't as long as some of the posts on here and it was a good read and I agree with almost all of it.

 

I don't agree on Trevor being a working concept simply because of the self righteous crap he goes on with to create tension with Michael all the while he cowardly murders Johnny, planned to betray Michael before Michael faked his death and murders Floyd and the strip club owner for no reason other than to reinforce 'hey he's random and does what he likes'. These two concepts make Trevor's character and they completely contradict one another but he needed some sort of personality trait to create the story, since if he put Michael to the same standards he puts himself too, there would be no tension at all between the two.

 

As for Ashley, well, I've said it a few times but Johnny's key weakness as a character is that he cares too much and puts the weight of the world on his shoulders. He rationally knows Ashley is bad for him but instinctively looks out for her and wants to look after her. Personally I think Johnny identifies a little in the fact she's a bit of a lost cause and he knows for a fact that he is too. A man who wanted to be in the army but couldn't because of the corruption? His values go completely against that of the GTA world and naturally he gets crushed by that weight.

 

So despite his words it's not difficult for me to believe he would hook back up with her nor do I find the meth too much of a stretch either but the entire reason this thread has gone on so long is because it's not good writing and it left a bad taste in the mouths of many.

 

How Johnny's world finally crushed him though was very poorly written. There are thousands of ways you could have better wrote that scene and yours is but one. A friend who likes to friendly troll me and fool around tried to make that scene worse and it took him three tries before I believed that he had imagined a scenario more ridiculous and stupid then what actually happened and let's just say it involved something completely out of the GTA Universe.

 

As for Jackie and the kid, I personally think Jackie would take Jim's death (faked or not) very hard and would be pretty angry at Johnny and not want to accept his blood money. Yeah... I've thought about what would happen if Jim really did get away with the 2 mil of diamond money and started a new life with Jackie... yeah I went there @_@.

I'm glad you thought it was a good read, and thanks for reading. Since we are discussing this, I'll respond to some of the things you said.

1. I have learned that it is usually near impossible to change someone's opinion on something, so I won't try to change your opinion on Trevor, but I will respond to some of it.

"I don't agree on Trevor being a working concept simply because of the self righteous crap he goes on with to create tension with Michael"

Well, Michael did betray him, so I can kind of understand why Trevor would act as self-righeous as he does.

"all the while he cowardly murders Johnny,"

Yeah, but like we have all been saying, killing Johnny was stupid anyway. I would have instead done what I said in my first post. Him killing Johnny made me hate him at first too, and after the mission Mr. Philips, I couldn't even continue playing, and it took me about a day before I had the heart to pick it up again and keep playing (well, that and college gets in the way lol). But when I did start playing, I grew to like Trevor, and personally, I realized (again, my own realization, you are more than welcome to disagree) that I shouldn't hate Trevor for that. Characters only do what writers make them. Trevor didn't have to kill Johnny, it could have been a random character (some might say that it wouldn't have had the same audience reaction, but he freaking smashed someone's brains in. If you saw someone in real life, even if you didn't know them, getting their head smashed, it would definitely leave an impression on you), or it could be what I suggested doing with Joe John. But we both agree that killing Johnny like that was indeed poor writing.

"planned to betray Michael before Michael faked his death"

He did? I don't remember that. I got the game late, and in between my real life commitments, I haven't had as much time to play as I would like, so I may not have gotten to that revelation yet. I'm a little after the part when Franklin rescues Michael from the Triad slaughterhouse, after the North Yankton mission.

"and murders Floyd and the strip club owner for no reason other than to reinforce 'hey he's random and does what he likes'."

Floyd's and Debra's murder didn't upset me that much. Yeah, it was quite shocking and pretty brutal, but I can see why it happened. Trevor isn't exactly suppose to be a great guy, none of GTA protags are. He's f*cking nuts, has serious anger issues, and Debra and Floyd pulled weapons on him. Yeah, they were justified in doing it, but again, Trevor is nuts, and isn't suppose to follow the same rules of courtesy that the other characters would. And him killing the Strip Club owner, yeah I do agree that was kind of overkill, but I think it was done to give Trevor the strip club and set up that joke where the manager's body falls out of the fridge (yeah, it was a dark joke, and not everyone will find it funny, but there you go.) Frankly, he could have just scared the manager into giving him the club, and they could have had a joke based on that, but whatever.

"These two concepts make Trevor's character and they completely contradict one another but he needed some sort of personality trait to create the story, since if he put Michael to the same standards he puts himself too, there would be no tension at all between the two."

Well, again, Trevor isn't suppose to be a shining moral becon of truth. Just because he is psycho doesn't mean he can't hold moral principles. It is the same reason cons in prison kill sex offenders and child molesters, because they rightly find it morally despicable, despite the fact that they may be horrible people or have done horrible things themselves. But like I said, it is your opinion. You don't have to like Trevor, and you and I can agree to disagree.

2. Ehh, again, this is a perspective thing, but I personally just can't see him going back to Ashley, or becoming a methhead. To me, it contradicts everything I came to know from him in TLAD. But again, we can agree to disagree.

3. I think it is difficult to make a judgement on what Jackie would do since we don't really get to know her, we only know what Johnny and Jim talk about, as well as what Johnny, Terry, Clay, and Jim talk about during friendship activities. She may do exactly what you said (I'm sure no matter what, she'd take Jim's death hard), or she may agree to take Johnny's money since she has nothing else and has a kid to support. And lol at your idea of Jim making a new life with Jackie. Funny and amusing idea, but I personally can't subscribe to the "Jim's like Elvis and not really dead" theory, because when playing as Niko, I shot him off his bike and saw him go tumbling down the tracks at ridiculously fast speeds. Hard to imagine anyone surviving that, even in the GTA universe. But whatever, it is all speculation.

I think the main point that we all agree with is that Johnny's death was extremely poor writing. It is really hard to believe that the same people who wrote such an awesome story in TLAD would do something that dumb with Johnny. It really does baffle me.
 

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#345

Posted 15 November 2013 - 03:55 AM

I must say, I really respect how you are able to stand your ground on your opinion about not disliking Trevor. I'm impressed :).

 

In any case my apologies, I've explained my Jim theory a few times in this thread and most of the usual suspects know it but I don't expect anyone to go through pages and pages of what is mostly the same thing just explained a different way.

 

Anyway, how about the fact that the guy Niko kills looks nothing like Jim. Sure that can be explained as a retcon but I think that's a crappy tool to use and it's lazy not to mention that the guy Niko kills is seen alongside actual Jim in TLAD. So Jim and supposed Jim are side by side, why would they do that? Why not use the generic second biker who is with the 'Jim' who NIko kills?

 

Most telling of all however is the two million dollars going missing when last seen in Jim's possession and knowing how corrupt people in Liberty City are it would be pretty easy to fake one's death knowing damn well that Lost members are turning up dead and are rarely identified. It's probably a load of nonsense especially with how Johnny's death was handled, but I really hate retcons and loose ends and this explains both.

 

On Ashley and the meth, I should state that I agree it's extremely unlikely and I didn't like what I saw. All I meant to establish was that it was a possibility. I said this earlier but it is equally likely that he could have worked for a secret international organization designed to expose corruption. That's simply at the other extreme of the scale of Johnny's character traits.

 

---

 

Back to Trevor.

 

When Trevor is driving to Los Santos with Wade he says that Michael was going soft and that he planned to betray him. I cannot remember the exact words but there is no doubt of the context. It could be Trevor talking crap in hindsight but that's another thing that's up to opinion.

 

Honestly, I don't hate Trevor that much for killing Johnny and even HOW he killed him which is the key issue here, if he killed Johnny in a him or me situation this thread would have a very different flavor. In any case it factors sure and it certainly didn't set his character up well but it wouldn't even rank in my top five reasons for disliking him.

 

I despise Trevor far more for killing Floyd than I do for him killing Johnny. He pulled a knife but Trevor knew he was harmless. Killing Debra, fair game a ranged weapon, maybe not completely fair game but compared to the other things he does... yeah. Not to mention that she's hinted to be pretty cruel to Floyd and then reinforces that in her only appearance so it's difficult to feel sympathy for her.

 

Floyd on the other hand put his job, wife and lifestyle at risk for Trevor and Wade by helping them with the Merryweather heist. He didn't contact the police as most people probably would have done and Trevor first repays this by leaving him to get beaten by a pulp by Merryweather and then later brutally murders him for an extremely trivial to non reason. I don't particularly like Floyd but it's the principal of the thing.

 

All this comes down to the fact is that it is very difficult to sympathize with Trevor in any way shape or form and the protagonist is usually someone you are meant to side with, not want to pilot them to their deaths every ten seconds. In my opinion it completely undermines almost any part of the story he's involved in.

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devonski
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#346

Posted 15 November 2013 - 05:29 AM

I must say, I really respect how you are able to stand your ground on your opinion about not disliking Trevor. I'm impressed :).

 

In any case my apologies, I've explained my Jim theory a few times in this thread and most of the usual suspects know it but I don't expect anyone to go through pages and pages of what is mostly the same thing just explained a different way.

 

Anyway, how about the fact that the guy Niko kills looks nothing like Jim. Sure that can be explained as a retcon but I think that's a crappy tool to use and it's lazy not to mention that the guy Niko kills is seen alongside actual Jim in TLAD. So Jim and supposed Jim are side by side, why would they do that? Why not use the generic second biker who is with the 'Jim' who NIko kills?

 

Most telling of all however is the two million dollars going missing when last seen in Jim's possession and knowing how corrupt people in Liberty City are it would be pretty easy to fake one's death knowing damn well that Lost members are turning up dead and are rarely identified. It's probably a load of nonsense especially with how Johnny's death was handled, but I really hate retcons and loose ends and this explains both.

 

On Ashley and the meth, I should state that I agree it's extremely unlikely and I didn't like what I saw. All I meant to establish was that it was a possibility. I said this earlier but it is equally likely that he could have worked for a secret international organization designed to expose corruption. That's simply at the other extreme of the scale of Johnny's character traits.

 

---

 

Back to Trevor.

 

When Trevor is driving to Los Santos with Wade he says that Michael was going soft and that he planned to betray him. I cannot remember the exact words but there is no doubt of the context. It could be Trevor talking crap in hindsight but that's another thing that's up to opinion.

 

Honestly, I don't hate Trevor that much for killing Johnny and even HOW he killed him which is the key issue here, if he killed Johnny in a him or me situation this thread would have a very different flavor. In any case it factors sure and it certainly didn't set his character up well but it wouldn't even rank in my top five reasons for disliking him.

 

I despise Trevor far more for killing Floyd than I do for him killing Johnny. He pulled a knife but Trevor knew he was harmless. Killing Debra, fair game a ranged weapon, maybe not completely fair game but compared to the other things he does... yeah. Not to mention that she's hinted to be pretty cruel to Floyd and then reinforces that in her only appearance so it's difficult to feel sympathy for her.

 

Floyd on the other hand put his job, wife and lifestyle at risk for Trevor and Wade by helping them with the Merryweather heist. He didn't contact the police as most people probably would have done and Trevor first repays this by leaving him to get beaten by a pulp by Merryweather and then later brutally murders him for an extremely trivial to non reason. I don't particularly like Floyd but it's the principal of the thing.

 

All this comes down to the fact is that it is very difficult to sympathize with Trevor in any way shape or form and the protagonist is usually someone you are meant to side with, not want to pilot them to their deaths every ten seconds. In my opinion it completely undermines almost any part of the story he's involved in.

Thanks for your kind words, I appreciate it :). You're pretty good at holding an argument yourself.

Interesting theory about Jim, well thought out. As interested as I would be in that being true, I highly doubt Rockstar thought that much into it, especially given how they killed Johnny. I know you said you hate retcons, but I'm inclined to think that was all it was. Niko killed Jim and the unnamed biker, and they were just suppose to be characters that Niko had to kill off of no other importance. Then they decided to make Lost and Damned, and they decided to make Jim Johnny's best friend, and they gave him personality, depth, and a character makeover. The guy who was suppose to be Jim was moved to the spot of generic biker, and new Jim took the place of the original generic Jim in GTA IV. As interesting as I find your theory, that is all I think happened, and like I said, I can't imagine Rockstar thought through it that much. Look how half-assed they handled Johnny in GTA V...

---

Oh, I think you are talking about the mission Friends Reunited when him and Wade were driving to Los Santos and he told Wade the story of "Trisha and Michele." I haven't played that mission in a while, so I don't remember the whole story, nor can I find a video on YouTube where anyone is driving slow enough to hear the whole story, but I remember him saying he was "thinking" of cutting "Michele" off because he had a family with Amanda and went soft. If all he was doing was "thinking," and not actually planning to carry it out, that is two different things and Trevor would still be justified in his anger. But like I said, I don't remember the whole story, and I might have missed the part when he said he intended to cut him off. Even still, he was just planning it, Michael actually did it. In that case it is more like when someone is lying, and starts to get angry when someone doesn't believe them. It makes Trevor a lot less justified, but it is still interesting from a character perspective, at least to me.

Well, I don't like the idea of Trevor killing Johnny at all. Yeah, it wouldn't have left nearly as bad of an impression with me had Johnny gone out in "a blaze of glory" fighting Trevor man-on-man as some here have suggested. Point is, I didn't like Johnny getting killed off at all, but if he had to be, I'd rather him have a respectful death, either by Trevor or otherwise (preferably otherwise, so people wouldn't hate Trevor as much).

Yeah, I do concede that Trevor killing Floyd was pretty mean spirited. But at the same time, Debra instigated Trevor. It is clear that Debra was a total bitch who was cheating on Floyd, and I don't think anyone is sad that she died. But at the same time, in that situation, it presents a problem with writing. If Trevor had just killed Debra, and spared Floyd, one of two things could happen: 1. Floyd would be so traumatized beyond belief at witnessing Debra's brutal murder, that he ends up in psychiatric care for all his days. That in itself is a pretty messed up fate to have. Or 2. Floyd, while still traumatized, gets the cops on Trevor, which would mean Trevor ends up killing Floyd anyway for ratting him out. It is just one of those situations you can't really win in. Killing Floyd along with Debra looks like it was the only way to go, no matter how unpleasant it was or how much Floyd didn't deserve it. I would have liked to have Floyd live too now that I think about it, but really, I don't see how it was going to happen.

And again, this comes down to perspective. Like I said, I'm not sure we are suppose to be in sympathy with Trevor. While we are suppose to like him to an extent (again, some people are just going to hate him, and while I am not one of them, I understand completely if you do hate him), he is suppose to make us feel uncomfortable, he is suppose to do things that weird us out, he is suppose to shock us. I guess Rockstar wanted to try something different than the "player loves him, wants to see him win 100% of the time" type protaganist. Not everyone will like it, but it is what it is. Like I said many times, my real issue towards this game was how they handled Johnny, and how that lead me to hate Trevor at first.

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Punk Noodles
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#347

Posted 15 November 2013 - 06:14 AM

It was an excellent scene. Stop being a blind fanboy, and take it for what it is. Johnny was not an immortal. It was only a matter of time before his sh*tty environment and the people in it would drag him down along with them, which turned out to be the end of him. Too bad, people die. 


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#348

Posted 15 November 2013 - 06:47 AM

It was an excellent scene. Stop being a blind fanboy, and take it for what it is. Johnny was not an immortal. It was only a matter of time before his sh*tty environment and the people in it would drag him down along with them, which turned out to be the end of him. Too bad, people die. 

We are fully aware that Johnny is not an immortal. None of the GTA characters are, just ask Vic Vance. If you actually read what anyone has said, a lot of people are angry not that he died, but HOW he died.

I don't understand why people like you have to get upset anytime someone dares to criticize GTA V. If a character you liked gets killed off in a sh*tty way, especially when they are out-of-character and the circumstances surrounding their current condition do not make any sense, you have the right to voice your displeasure.

And your accusations of fanboyism are misplaced. I said that I like both GTA V and Trevor, and I (as well as many others) have said we simply disapprove of how the character of Johnny was handled. The fact that you criticized us because we dared to criticize a scene you liked shows that you calling me or anyone else a fanboy is a classic case of the pot calling the kettle black.

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#349

Posted 15 November 2013 - 08:33 AM

Ffs this is a stupid argument. Johnny's a brilliant character. Trevor's a brilliant character. One kills the other. It's f*cking storytelling. Jesus, I wanna see some of you people watch something like Game of Thrones...


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#350

Posted 15 November 2013 - 10:09 AM Edited by B Dawg, 15 November 2013 - 10:10 AM.

Ffs this is a stupid argument. Johnny's a brilliant character. Trevor's a brilliant character. One kills the other. It's f*cking storytelling. Jesus, I wanna see some of you people watch something like Game of Thrones...

I don't really symphatize with movie characters. How can I considering the time each of them get in a 2 to 3 hour film, maybe I just lack empathy for unreal things. Game characters are a whole different story, but I am unable to thoroughly explain it.


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#351

Posted 15 November 2013 - 11:59 AM Edited by Peachrocks, 15 November 2013 - 12:08 PM.

It is BAD storytelling. That's the entire point. Most of us aren't too upset one killed the other. It happens in movies and TV shows too where some really questionable writing happens and the show/movie loses a lot of popularity in consequence. This is exactly the same thing albeit with a small impact because it's a game and therefore people are less likely to be too immersed with the storyline which is who Trevor is specifically aimed at.

 

Take Niko killing Jim or Jason. Granted we had no idea who they were when playing as Niko but even after the fact there aren't hate threads on Niko now are there? Jim is probably my favorite GTA character, yet I still like Niko regardless of whether he killed him or not. That's because the story telling is far more sound than it is here.

 

---

 

Back to devonski.

 

I actually really wanted to like Trevor, I really did. He's probably the only character with a background and a significant amount of dialogue that I actually dislike.

 

My first impressions before the game out of him were low. I was like 'oh great a character with practically no depth', I wanted to pleasantly surprised. I wanted a method behind his madness. I was surprised alright... and it was anything but pleasant and I resented every time I was forced to use him. The online missions were just salt in the wound.

 

Though it is definitely based on perspective which is why I'm enjoying the read because you're the first person who has said they like Trevor and can actually put up a sound argument.

 

As for Trevor murdering Floyd the point is that it was completely unnecessary. It was merely there so he gets to go on another rampage showing how much he 'doesn't care what other people think'. So what man? You've only demonstrated that in practically every scene you are in...

 

He never really needed to go back there and even if he did only to pick Wade up (only for him to be absorbed in the strip club never to be seen again), Debra could have just been a never seen character and only serve as a conversation point with Floyd. His murder was completely unnecessary and served no purpose.

 

Or yet again that entire sequence could have been written completely differently. It's yet another scene that made it impossible to sympathize with Trevor and we ARE meant to sympathize with him. With any protganist good or evil you are usually meant to see their reasons and motives. You might not agree with them but they are still clear to see and you still generally want to be on their side when you see the story from their point of view. In Trevor's case we are borderline commanded to feel sympathy for him.

 

Take the entire sequence with Patricia. 'Everyone always abandons me?' Funny how hitting your friends and actively being deceitful while being a self righteous prick has that effect without feeling remorse for any of it? Yeah... no.... The entire Brad ordeal has a chunk of this as well.

 

Trevor wasn't even the main target of Michael's deception either it was just a side effect, Michael chose between his criminal life and his family. That was it. Indirectly he did not choose Trevor so sure he could interpret it as a betrayal but he did not ask Dave to go and have him killed and make sure he was dead as to make his 'disappearance' complete. If anything he probably had to convince Dave to spare him. In fact Michael's mercy on Trevor is the sole thing that causes him so much grief in the first place. This makes Trevor's self righteousness all the more nauseating.

 

Furthermore he killed off Wade's friends for no reason as well just so he could have someone he could manipulate and then claim to him they abandoned him as to give him a false connection to Trevor. Feel so sorry for Wade being under that asshole's thumb.

 

As for Rockstar wanting to try something different that is definitely true. However it is not away from the protag 100% wins because Niko and Johnny both paid a heavy price in their respective plots. Trevor's solo design was meant to absorb the mindless average destruction crazed GTA player, they succeeded and sure... I can't deny there are some aspects to him I like but the rest of what I've said completely cancels that out.

 

Furthermore, Trevor in what has to be the canon ending because the other two don't wrap up the plot ends off far better than Niko does.

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#352

Posted 15 November 2013 - 02:34 PM

what if trevor didn't kill floyd? what if debra shot and killed floyd, and then trevor got really mad and avenged floyd by killing debra?


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#353

Posted 15 November 2013 - 07:37 PM

-snip-

 

Considering what I write; and how pleasurable this was to read, I did not find this long by any means.

This is fantastic, more articulated than anything I've written. The most interesting part of your post is that you don't come across as an angry, raving fan (which we've avoided for the most part) because you're not. You just pointed out every reason it makes NO f*cking sense, which is something that should catch R*'s attention.

But it won't GTA V was built up too much in my mind and had so much potential. Unghh... this game...


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#354

Posted 15 November 2013 - 07:41 PM


 

As for Jackie and the kid, I personally think Jackie would take Jim's death (faked or not) very hard and would be pretty angry at Johnny and not want to accept his blood money. Yeah... I've thought about what would happen if Jim really did get away with the 2 mil of diamond money and started a new life with Jackie... yeah I went there @_@.

 

Still not to late to make this happen, C*!

Just out of meticulous curiosity, didn't they have Jim saying Jackie was pushing him to leave the gang?


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#355

Posted 15 November 2013 - 07:49 PM

In regards to Jim's retcon...

He could have set up two fall-guys, pulled a brief-case switch, what-have-you. The damn President of the MC couldn't have been the only one running around doing patch/prospect-grade work for Stubbs. The Fitz could have offed Stubbs' aunt (or something) and Stubbs could have had the death report faked. Ray and Niko didn't personally identify with Jimmy Fitz, who were they to know who he was? And why would the police care? Especially if they walked home with a sizable chunk of Jim's two-mil in their pockets.

 

Make a good Red Dead story dynamic out of it, or EVEN flesh out Michael's story that never really came to be "the former criminal trying to win his family back... but then is sucked back in." Or sh*t, make Jim's kid a Jack Marston that isn't a squeally little fa**ot, and give him a Zombie B and send him into LC to track down the villainous Niko Bellic who killed his daddy.

 

R* and the fans would NEVER go for it, but imagine making Niko the elusive antagonist. You wouldn't know who to root for.


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#356

Posted 15 November 2013 - 10:17 PM Edited by D- Ice, 17 November 2013 - 09:13 AM.

Snip.

 

You make some really good point, and I agree with your reasoning that it is unfeasible for Johnny to do all three things (moving to LS, getting back with Ashley, and getting hooked on meth).

 

However, I would probably take a more hardline approach in saying that I believe Johnny wouldn't have done a single one of those.

I believe Johnny and The Lost would maintain the status quo after the end of TLAD storyline.

 

Johnny tried to get the gang making money with trade and cooperation with the AoD until Billy Grey shows up. Ironically, after all the conflict between Johnny and Billy, and Billy's ultimate defeat, The Lost is transformed into exactly what Billy always wanted - a barbarious bunch of marauders with nothing defining them but senseless violence towards other gangs and no loyalties, or organised ways of making money. This is supported by the fact that after the storyline, one of the main things you can do (and my favourite) is the gang wars.

Johnny figured out the "smart way" wasn't for them after seeing just how fragile it is, and how easily it can all be turned upside down (by Billy's actions), at great cost to The Lost. Far better to do stick with the tried and tested marauding whenever they can.

 

Unlike what many believe about Johnny burning the clubhouse as a sign of growing out of The Lost lifestyle, I see it as a realisation and acceptance of their true nature as a gang of urban marauders. Not having a well defined and well recognised base means that they won't be easy targets for retaliation. The Lost became a gang which can assemble at any time anywhere in LC or Alderney to carry out ferocious and daring raids on other gangs, then disassemble and disappear right afterwards.

The acceptance and continuation of this lifestyle is reinforced by Johnny continuing to live in his abandoned house with loud death metal blasting all the time - he never gets a stable job, wife and kids.

 

This is how I see The Lost continuing, with a steady stream of new recruits partially thanks to their fearsome reputation, and the difficulty corrupt law enforcement and gangs face in defeating them thanks to their urban guerilla (and maybe even sleeper cell) organisation.

The sustainability of this lifestyle IMO makes a move to LS highly undesirable and unlikely, especially with what you mention about the commitments to Jim's family that Johnny taking onto himself.

 

TC

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#357

Posted 16 November 2013 - 02:25 AM Edited by Peachrocks, 16 November 2013 - 02:26 AM.

In regards to Jim's retcon...
He could have set up two fall-guys, pulled a brief-case switch, what-have-you. The damn President of the MC couldn't have been the only one running around doing patch/prospect-grade work for Stubbs. The Fitz could have offed Stubbs' aunt (or something) and Stubbs could have had the death report faked. Ray and Niko didn't personally identify with Jimmy Fitz, who were they to know who he was? And why would the police care? Especially if they walked home with a sizable chunk of Jim's two-mil in their pockets.
 
Make a good Red Dead story dynamic out of it, or EVEN flesh out Michael's story that never really came to be "the former criminal trying to win his family back... but then is sucked back in." Or sh*t, make Jim's kid a Jack Marston that isn't a squeally little fa**ot, and give him a Zombie B and send him into LC to track down the villainous Niko Bellic who killed his daddy.
 
R* and the fans would NEVER go for it, but imagine making Niko the elusive antagonist. You wouldn't know who to root for.

Jackie was pushing for Jim to leave The Lost and Johnny even questioned whether Jim should stay on the fact he has a family to look after to which Jim says that he's still a brother. That said Jackie married Jim when he was part of The Lost so probably somewhat tolerated it but didn't want her kid growing up without a Dad.

The really funny part is that Johnny says that if Billy asked Jim to do something that might mean he can't take care of Jackie and the kid anymore what would he do? Jim says he'd have to think long and hard about it, did he indeed make a choice here? :D. It would be quite funny if there was North Yankton DLC featuring Michael and Jim as playable characters, even funnier that Michaels own kid is named Jimmy on top of the numerous similarities between the two despite having very different personalities and beliefs.

Yeah I've thought of theoretical tlad/tbogt story of how all this would go down with more Heist based involvement with less politics that plagued the gta v story. Involving Stubbs in Jim's fake death is certainly and interesting touch as well and something I didn't consider. Perhaps this is all better for a new thread entirely since more people seem to think the theory is a possibility despite it being so unlikely the Rockstar would go for it and it is indeed nothing more that a retcon and a forgotten story element.

Making Niko a villain is an interesting touch. The funny part is that based on either ending Niko could be in a similar state to Darko and be a shell of a man in consequence.

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#358

Posted 16 November 2013 - 02:25 AM Edited by Dr. Robotnik, 16 November 2013 - 02:26 AM.

I ... I actually kind of liked that moment ...

 

I mean the pacing of that cutscene , the acting , the tense feeling that 'something' was going to explode yet you just don't know 'what' it will be exactly , the clash between Johnny Klebitz's emotional breakdown versus Trevor's OWN emotional breakdown is just ... well , hot damn , what a stand-off !

 

I mean there's actually some dramatic weight going on here, you've got the former no-nonsense biker who gets all pumped up over so fastidious decision he made in his life, and then you've got this bald peacock looking hobo who just realizes that his best friend, what he consider to be his brother in arm to be, in fact, very much alive. And this is a character that, the last we saw of him, dozens upon dozens of hours ago, was crushed by his inability to save his dying friend.

"I'm Not Leaving Here Without You Mickey!"

It still rings hard. The yell is ringing its way back. For nine years, this fella suffered through believing it was his fault ... and now, now that there may actually be a possibility that dear Mickey is well and alive, the emerging thoughts of all these past nine years of potential self loathing and for nothing ...

   

 

I'm in two minds about this whole controversy. On the one hand, I fully agree that Trevor comes across as a complete asshole, but on the other hand, after rewatching the scene through multiple playthroughs, I kind of agree with this post.

 

Trevor looks lost and confused from the moment he sees the news to the moment he turns around to acknowledge Johnny, and when he does, you really do get the sense that he's simply fed up. Right after getting a traumatic revelation, some asshole he already doesn't like shows up to bug him, and it's more than he can stand.

 

Maybe the entire sequence would've worked better if they'd eliminated Trevor taunting Johnny, and instead showed his face slowly twitching and contorting into a snarl before whirling around and attacking him without warning. It would've fit the mood, and made Trevor look more like a man pushed past his breaking point than a calculating sadist.    


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#359

Posted 16 November 2013 - 02:28 AM Edited by Peachrocks, 16 November 2013 - 03:00 AM.

The thing is though Trevor IS a calculated sadist. It's what makes his character so despicable to me. Even ignoring that scene, there are several others that reinforce that idea. Floyd, the strip club owner, what he did to Wade's friends... Yeah...


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#360

Posted 16 November 2013 - 02:48 AM Edited by Dr. Robotnik, 16 November 2013 - 02:58 AM.

Yeah, I really can't argue with that. I can kind of accept Trevor's over-the-top bloodthirsty rampages, but there's no way I can accept how he cruelly manipulates Wade. The fact that they portrayed it fairly realistically to boot just made him look insidious beyond belief.

 

And on the subject of Floyd and Debra, yeah, I wouldn't have cared at all if it had just been Debra. I think the whole sequence would've worked at least a little better if Trevor had been confronted by Debra alone, killed her, then run into Floyd on the way out of the condo and cheerfully informed him he'd done him a big favor before leaving Floyd to discover the aftermath. While that would still end very badly for Floyd, at least then it would've seemed as though Trevor was, in his own warped way, trying to do some right by him.





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