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The issue with driving/damage is not the handling. It's that GTA:V

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kimpan
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#61

Posted 15 September 2013 - 05:52 PM

Not that it will happend, but we can only hope they do something about it, so you can choose what playstyle you want arcade like or the more realistic one so they can please the ones who like the way it is now, or the ones who prefer IV mechanics. But I'm not sure if that's even possible with this engine, I'm not a developer. 

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pookie1
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#62

Posted 15 September 2013 - 05:53 PM

 

 

Weren't people saying gta iv failed, because it was too realistic? We will always find something to bitch about. Therefore we are all a bitch and we suck.

 

It was not because it was too realistic, it was because the optimization sucks as hell, and lack of good map  / features. But GTA IV physics are good.

 

Is it really realistic to be sliding around all over the place if you apply the brakes at like 5mph though?

 

 

stee_vo, I believe GTA4 physics needed work. Not debating that.

 

The issue is that GTAV takes GTA4 physics and kicks them to the curb. They did not attempt to improve them, they overhauled the system and went in the exact opposite direction: everything from damage, to health, to handling. Everything involving driving.

 

And this new system is a complete juxtaposition against the on-foot gameplay. You *die* within a few shots on foot. Not injury. Death.

 

In a car, you can last as long as you want. Just keep holding the accelerator. You won't die from losing your car to a flip, and your car won't be easily destroyed no matter if you get in the worst possible crashes.

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Edward-Is-A-Flunky45
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#63

Posted 15 September 2013 - 05:56 PM

... has an identity crisis.

 

I am going to preface this by asking readers to please read entirely and, if you choose to respond, please do so by putting your "big boy" pants on.

 

There are tons of topics out there complaining about driving physics, car damage, etc. This is not one of them. This is merely a means to convey the issue at hand from a proper perspective.

 

The issue here is not so much the physics in my mind; rather, it's the fact GTA is inconsistent in how it handles the world in general.

 

Your health is low (realistic).

NPC health is low and can be KO'd by a single punch or knife strike (realistic).

Running speed is slow (realistic).

Biking speed is slow (realistic).

The slightest mistake on foot means death.

 

And now, we transition to cars:

 

Car health is incredibly high and you are basically invincible while moving.

Car damage takes forever to develop.

Cars cannot be permanently flipped (you can easily flip them back).

Cars are basically glued to the ground.

 

No matter if you like/dislike the driving in this game, you have to admit there's a disparity here. The transition from realistic to arcade is instant. And that, to some people, is problematic.

 

Consistency is the answer. I don't believe anyone who has played Saints Row 4 would be complaining about unrealistic physics, because the game is entirely unrealistic. However, this is not the case in GTA:V.

 

One moment, you die from taking 3 or 4 bullets from police on foot. The next, you're being chased for half an hour because police can't stop your car no matter their best efforts.

 

One moment, you die from being clipped by a car going 20 mph. The next, you're doing 90 degree turns in an SUV going full speed.

 

I urge everyone to think about this situation from this perspective. If the game was entirely unrealistic, I don't believe as many people would be complaining. But the game is filled with attempts at being realistic -- heck, look at the activity choices: Tennis, golf, yoga ... etc.

 

But then, you are taken from that "realistic" mindset and thrown into a completely unrealistic set of circumstances with no real reasoning as to why. It's as though on-foot gameplay and activities were developed by an entirely different studio than the driving mechanics.

Here sir, have my like. 


AllenKS
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#64

Posted 15 September 2013 - 05:59 PM Edited by AllenKS, 15 September 2013 - 06:01 PM.

I love almost everything I'm seeing from the game, the game looks like it did combine all of the best elements from Rockstar's old games into 1 big collossal super-game. The game is definitely a must-buy for me, and will probably be my favorite game this generation.

 

The lack of suspension on cars, and even more-so on bikes is just gross. It's nasty. It's a downgrade in direction from GTA IV. This doesn't mean that GTA IV was perfect, it doesn't even mean that they're "worse" than IV's. It just means that I expected them to keep with the same physics the cars had from the last game, but better.

 

They spent so much time refining the bikes for TLAD, and then the cars for TBoGT, and then with this new game, they just threw them out. Combine that with the reduced damage models and it really sucks, because one of the best things GTA IV had going for it, was its completely unique driving physics that NO OTHER GAME even came close to.

 

GTA IV's driving wasn't perfect, the cars WERE boat-like, but GTA V was supposed to FIX that, not toss them away.

 

Still gonna play the sh*t out of the game, but the die-hard "1000/10" fanboys don't care because I don't think the game is perfect.

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pookie1
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#65

Posted 15 September 2013 - 05:59 PM

 

... has an identity crisis.

 

I am going to preface this by asking readers to please read entirely and, if you choose to respond, please do so by putting your "big boy" pants on.

 

There are tons of topics out there complaining about driving physics, car damage, etc. This is not one of them. This is merely a means to convey the issue at hand from a proper perspective.

 

The issue here is not so much the physics in my mind; rather, it's the fact GTA is inconsistent in how it handles the world in general.

 

Your health is low (realistic).

NPC health is low and can be KO'd by a single punch or knife strike (realistic).

Running speed is slow (realistic).

Biking speed is slow (realistic).

The slightest mistake on foot means death.

 

And now, we transition to cars:

 

Car health is incredibly high and you are basically invincible while moving.

Car damage takes forever to develop.

Cars cannot be permanently flipped (you can easily flip them back).

Cars are basically glued to the ground.

 

No matter if you like/dislike the driving in this game, you have to admit there's a disparity here. The transition from realistic to arcade is instant. And that, to some people, is problematic.

 

Consistency is the answer. I don't believe anyone who has played Saints Row 4 would be complaining about unrealistic physics, because the game is entirely unrealistic. However, this is not the case in GTA:V.

 

One moment, you die from taking 3 or 4 bullets from police on foot. The next, you're being chased for half an hour because police can't stop your car no matter their best efforts.

 

One moment, you die from being clipped by a car going 20 mph. The next, you're doing 90 degree turns in an SUV going full speed.

 

I urge everyone to think about this situation from this perspective. If the game was entirely unrealistic, I don't believe as many people would be complaining. But the game is filled with attempts at being realistic -- heck, look at the activity choices: Tennis, golf, yoga ... etc.

 

But then, you are taken from that "realistic" mindset and thrown into a completely unrealistic set of circumstances with no real reasoning as to why. It's as though on-foot gameplay and activities were developed by an entirely different studio than the driving mechanics.

Here sir, have my like. 

 

 

Appreciated. 

 

Again, I will welcome any debate on this issue and will answer any questions I can based upon my playtime and also from streams I've frequented.


skillz7855
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#66

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:02 PM

op did you play the game


pookie1
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#67

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:03 PM

I love almost everything I'm seeing from the game, the game looks like it did combine all of the best elements from Rockstar's old games into 1 big collossal super-game. The game is definitely a must-buy for me, and will probably be my favorite game this generation.

 

The lack of suspension on cars, and even more-so on bikes is just gross. It's nasty. It's a downgrade in direction from GTA IV. This doesn't mean that GTA IV was perfect, it doesn't even mean that they're "worse" than IV's. It just means that I expected them to keep with the same physics the cars had from the last game, but better.

 

They spent so much time refining the bikes for TLAD, and then the cars for TBoGT, and then with this new game, they just through them out. Combine that with the reduced damage models and it really sucks, because one of the best things GTA IV had going for it, was it's completely unique driving physics that NO OTHER GAME even came close to.

 

GTA IV's driving wasn't perfect, the cars WERE boat-like, but GTA V was supposed to FIX that, not toss them away.

 

Still gonna play the sh*t out of the game, but the die-hard "1000/10" fanboys don't care because I don't think the game is perfect.

 

Don't get me wrong. This is a great game that will inevitably earn lots of awards. But the driving cannot be ignored.

 

Your note about bike suspension is valid. It is extremely difficult to crash a bike unless you hit a moving object head-on. For both bikes and cars, the GTA:V system rewards poor driving and sloppy handling. You don't have to think -- you just hold down the gas and go.

 

To me, that's a complication only because other parts of the game are so opposite in this regard. Think of GTA:V like a stealth game that rewards run-and-gun. It breaks the experience at least somewhat.


Distrom
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#68

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:03 PM

I agree with you OP, R* combined both arcade and realism to make a game more balanced, fun and yet challenging.

The oposite was in GTA IV, Niko was a one man army, the health and armor bars were pretty big and Niko was a lot more resistan to bullets and hits, while the driving was harder than in previous games and cars could wreck very easy.

 

For GTA V, they made driving less boat like for a more smooth and responding, car damage is improved a lot from IV but cars are far more resistant to hits and bullets, the damage and armor bars are smaller and cops are more intelligent, now if you don't go to cover, a 2 star wanted level will be enought to kill you. Even if the bar regenarets, it only does up to 50% and still it doesn't lower the difficult.

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DeadZombie
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#69

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:03 PM

Y RB RB left RB LB RT LB

/thread.

Were you watching the best driver in the game? Perhaps Franklin? Whenever this is brought up its always over a video of Franklin with the highest stats on driving and ever will have then every charcter you are able to play. In short OP is big baby bitch.
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pookie1
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#70

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:04 PM

op did you play the game

 

Yes, I've been playing since Thursday evening.


So...
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#71

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:05 PM

Interesting. Yes, V is in almost all aspects an improvement compared to IV. Look at the sky, the weather, the lighting, the animations, the traffic on the highway etc.  Yet, driving has gone in the opposite direction, as has damage modeling. Not to mention the superbicycles that can go anywhere with dazzling top speeds and fighter jets that can take off within a few feet. It just doesn't fit in the beautiful world R* has created. I would love to see a dlc with these issues addressed. An optional dlc, not a patch, to keep all people as happy as possible. 

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pookie1
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#72

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:05 PM

Y RB RB left RB LB RT LB

/thread.

Were you watching the best driver in the game? Perhaps Franklin? Whenever this is brought up its always over a video of Franklin with the highest stats on driving and ever will have then every charcter you are able to play. In short OP is big baby bitch.

 

I've been playing since Thursday. Character skill levels do not affect respective activities in a major way. Michael and Trevor handle cars essentially the same as Franklin, minus his slow-mo driving ability.


pookie1
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#73

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:07 PM Edited by pookie1, 15 September 2013 - 06:09 PM.

Interesting. Yes, V is in almost all aspects an improvement compared to IV. Look at the sky, the weather, the lighting, the animations, the traffic on the highway etc.  Yet, driving has gone in the opposite direction, as has damage modeling. Not to mention the superbicycles that can go anywhere with dazzling top speeds and fighter jets that can take off within a few feet. It just doesn't fit in the beautiful world R* has created. I would love to see a dlc with these issues addressed. An optional dlc, not a patch, to keep all people as happy as possible. 

 

"Super" is not limited to bikes. You can drive a hippie van up a mountain, or take a GT40 offroading. It's not limited to a select grouping of cars.

 

Cars feel less distinct than ever. A 4x4 SUV handles almost the exact same as a moving van. Both of which handle almost generally the same as a luxury car, minus the speed.

 

Edited because I didn't want to overexaggerate.


keysersozeh
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#74

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:10 PM Edited by keysersozeh, 15 September 2013 - 06:12 PM.

So you seriously wish that the first time you find that bugatti and steal it, 15 seconds later its destroyed!!!

No more like.. doing your best not to destroy it in 15 seconds instead of knowing its indestructible,,, where's  the challenge in being on "God-mode"?

I want to take this opportunity to repost a message from fellow member "Rafe" talking about this matter:

 

The question is one of game design. GTA 4 had great driving but it was by no means perfect. Many criticisms should not be easily dismissed regarding the exaggerated control characteristics. However this same dynamic enriched gameplay as driving at high speeds was rather dangerous, you were constantly on the edge of losing controls in turns thus the brake panel actually had to be utilized with high frequency in maneuvering. This increased the complexity of driving and made for a more fulfilling experience.

 

The problem is that most modern gamers want immediate fulfillment in their driving experience. I have watched many people play racing games and i don't think you will have any trouble finding examples of people going too fast into turns, smashing into other cars to slow themselves down or grinding the side of their vehicles down on buildings or walls to stay on track. At these moments you have failed, you're not playing the game you are holding down the accelerator. The mechanic of holding down an accelerator requires relatively low skill and in regards to the realism vs arcade debate it illustrates that this is really about constraints vs unconstrained gameplay, about a game vs a sandbox.

 

Is GTA a game or just a sandbox? Should we get punished when we fail? When there is a prospect of failure the rewards of success(escape from cops) are that much more valuable. 

 

I think this demonstrates a general trend in teh gaming industry that as games, like movies, become more popular you integrate larger and larger populations of individuals into the market. The problem is these people have very little sophistication and gaming experience and as such you have to increase teh simplicty to make media more accessible, in the end complexity and thus game-play are sacrificed to satiate the mass market. 

 

GTA 4 driving was still some of the best even though supercars needed better performance characteristics. Accidents were spectacular and often unpredictable when you took excessive risks and drove too fast. Ultimately this made gameplay more spontaneous and less linear which is not what arcade games tend to provide. Gameplay was less predictable which increased the replayability of GTA driving. 

 

The above plus the OP's post sums it all up...


thenamesbeer
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#75

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:10 PM Edited by thenamesbeer, 15 September 2013 - 06:13 PM.

Nice post OP, and props for being the first person to post this without acting like an idiot, but I'd have to disagree. I was a late entry into GTA, with IV being the first one I owned (I had played SA with a friend). To me, while I loved it, the driving was my major gripe. I could tolerate it, and I didn't oppose the realism of it, but I just found that in a game series which is, along with being narratively, visually and pretty much all-round excellent, associated with being really fun, the driving wasn't. I didn't like losing most of my speed when taking corners, or that when aligning myself for a stunt jump if I made a slight movement I could cock it up completely as it was impossible to correct. This is just my opinion though.

 

On the subject of car damage and driving in general, I think that people should review the evidence for themselves before making any declarations. In a video where the Russian youtuber shows us LS Customs, he drives an Audi along the pier, and whe he crashes it into something that is solid and immoveable, there is convincing damage. The original jSticks vid that got everyone angry was using an armored car and the best driver. I do think, by the way, that the fact that you can boost your driving stat, and that there's a best 'driver' out of the three is great, as it encourages you to switch and develop as a player. The people who like three protags but get pissed when they are all different are some of the worst. One of my favourite parts of this new GTA is the fact that there is a definite sense of progression in terms other than narrative and unlocking islands. Interiors, flight school, stats, specials, exclusive features to each protag etc. are all wonderful and meaningful additions in my book. Sorry for the digression there.

 

Anyone else agree with me on any of this?

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makchamp
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#76

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:11 PM

It's better this way lol.

josephene123
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#77

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:13 PM

It's a real shame. I don't feel as if Rockstar are going to get the ratings that everything else in the game deserves because although review companies such as IGN and CVG can probably be bought off or be pressured to give high ratings regardless (It MUST happen for COD to get such high ratings every single year), I don't think all reviews will be so forgiving. You can't have atleast 40% of the gtaforums disliking such a massive part of the game and have nobody else notice it. 

 

I agree with you OP, R* combined both arcade and realism to make a game more balanced, fun and yet challenging.

The oposite was in GTA IV, Niko was a one man army, the health and armor bars were pretty big and Niko was a lot more resistan to bullets and hits, while the driving was harder than in previous games and cars could wreck very easy.

 

For GTA V, they made driving less boat like for a more smooth and responding, car damage is improved a lot from IV but cars are far more resistant to hits and bullets, the damage and armor bars are smaller and cops are more intelligent, now if you don't go to cover, a 2 star wanted level will be enought to kill you. Even if the bar regenarets, it only does up to 50% and still it doesn't lower the difficult.

Agree? That's not what op said anyway. GTA V's damage is not improved, either, unless you're talking about a subjective use of the word 'improved'. Objectively, it has not improved, cars which are 300% or 400% stronger than the ones in IV is not an improvement. 


Grupy
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#78

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:14 PM

People complained back when GTA IV was released about the driving mechanics. Some people even said it was too realistic! Rockstar have obviously been listening to us and trying to make us happy by changing some of the things that we didn't like from GTA IV. I understand that there are people out there who haven't played the game and haven't gotten a feel of the driving themselves, yet are already complaining about the driving mechanics. I don't want my car to be un-drivable after I crash with another car. 


Stewlil
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#79

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:14 PM Edited by Stewlil, 15 September 2013 - 06:15 PM.

OP summed it up very, very well. Wish someone had put it like that before the massive flame war in the driving thread.

He doesn't want a debate about the physics, idiots start debating about the physics.. FML.

Malndor
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#80

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:15 PM

Where to begin, where to begin. I'll have to sum it up in general.

 

The Gamer.

 

If they get it they whine, if they don't get it they whine, so they get it an whine. Repeat Cycle.

 

Plays, doesn't like it but keeps playing it while whining about not liking it while playing.

 

Compares things that make no sense to make them sound like sense to things totally unrelated.

 

G5jtzUg.jpg

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keysersozeh
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#81

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:15 PM

Interesting. Yes, V is in almost all aspects an improvement compared to IV. Look at the sky, the weather, the lighting, the animations, the traffic on the highway etc.  Yet, driving has gone in the opposite direction, as has damage modeling. Not to mention the superbicycles that can go anywhere with dazzling top speeds and fighter jets that can take off within a few feet. It just doesn't fit in the beautiful world R* has created. I would love to see a dlc with these issues addressed. An optional dlc, not a patch, to keep all people as happy as possible. 

Great idea.. at least give the option to change behavior of the vehicles to challenging.


iwerez
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#82

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:15 PM

So in essence you're summing up everything people have been whinging about in a sophisticated manner. If misery loves company. If people did get what they want they would still whinge. To be honest previous GTA's didn't have GTA 4 style driving, it was only 1 game. Now it's changed everyone flips out as if it's been GTA 4 throughout the whole series.

 

People loved Vice City yet complain about GTA V. 

 

People complain that GTA V is unrealistic yet in GTA 4 you could fall from a high building an not die, also your car didn't get destroyed either at times yet they say GTA V needs to be 'fixed'

 

Change is good, not always but in this case GTA 4 was a failed attempt at realism. GTA as a series has NEVER been about Ultra Realistic, don't fix what ain't broke. GTA V is R* going back to it's roots. If you have played GTA 1 you know the difficulty of the police. 

 

Before you complain about the "This game doesn't know what it wants to be" It's GTA..... a mish mash melting pot. and need I remind you a GAME. People liked Saints Row yet does that have any consistency apart from being more absurd each game? but it made no Fn sense towards the end. Dildo Bats? I mean come on really?

 

The issue here is not so much the players having opinions ; rather, it's the fact they are hypocritical, petty, whingers.

 

One hand they are saying can't wait for GTA V, the next moment they're whinging and I question there creditably and even if they have been around the series since day one. 

 

The fact people people on average have played GTA V for 8 hours an consider that a basis of knowing all, makes me throw there opinions out the window.

 

It's a wait an see.

Or you know, not players being hypocritical, but there being more than ONE person to represent the community, when poeple like something they shutup about it, are less vocal. So this "hypocrisy" youre claiming is actually poeple having different opinions, not one person.

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pookie1
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#83

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:17 PM Edited by pookie1, 15 September 2013 - 06:20 PM.

Nice post OP, and props for being the first person to post this without acting like an idiot, but I'd have to disagree. I was a late entry into GTA, with IV being the first one I owned (I had played SA with a friend). To me, while I loved it, the driving was my major gripe. I could tolerate it, and I didn't oppose the realism of it, but I just found that in a game series which is, along with being narratively, visually and pretty much all-round excellent, associated with being really fun, the driving wasn't. I didn't like losing most of my speed when taking corners, or that when aligning myself for a stunt jump if I made a slight movement I could cock it up completely as it was impossible to correct. This is just my opinion though.

 

On the subject of car damage and driving in general, I think that people should review the evidence for themselves before making any declarations. In a video where the Russian youtuber shows us LS Customs, he drives an Audi along the pier, and whe he crashes it into something that is solid and immoveable, there is convincing damage. The original jSticks vid that got everyone angry was using an armored car and the best driver. I do think, by the way, that the fact that you can boost your driving stat, and that there's a best 'driver' out of the three is great, as it encourages you to switch and develop as a player. The people who like three protags but get pissed when they are all different are some of the worst. Sorry for the digression there.

 

Anyone else agree with me on any of this?

 

Thanks for taking the time to write this out in a mature manner.

 

I am cognizant of the gripes people had in GTA4. Some people loved the driving. Some people hated it. But Rockstar at least attempted to keep the driving consistent with the world. They did not have an arcade shooter with Gran Turismo driving physics. They were firm in their stance: "We are going for realism."

 

In the case of GTA:V, Rockstar are trying to remedy GTA4's "realism" in favor of fun. I totally get that, and I'm not disagreeing with it. But I am, however, disagreeing in the way it was executed. 

 

In a game where valuables are important, there's no value put on the most valuable objects in the game. Let's say you procure a valuable car. Why do you value it? For one, it's hard to destroy. For two, you can't flip it. For three, you can get it back if you lose it. For four, you can get it back if you destroy it.

 

In order to value something, there has to be risk involved to appreciate it. While I'm not saying cars should be more vulnerable than ever, I'd like to think there would be a reason in the game for you to be careful. Instead, the game rewards you by not punishing reckless behavior.

 

Addendum: My reasoning here is there's no reason for someone to not hold down the accelerator the entire time they're in a car. The physics don't punish it, the damage doesn't punish it.


podyx
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#84

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:19 PM

so ur saying GTA V shud be patched to be more like sains row 4? lol


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#85

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:21 PM

can someone answer me please why they think they changed the driving completly.

 

its tbogt but with more grip. please turn on your console and drive a bullet gt and compare it to gta v.... it look like a step up and not like a new "worse" driving mechanic


pookie1
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#86

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:21 PM Edited by pookie1, 15 September 2013 - 06:23 PM.

so ur saying GTA V shud be patched to be more like sains row 4? lol

 

What? I am not saying that at all. But I will say that Saints Row 4 at least knows what part of the spectrum they belong in.

 

GTA:V doesn't. Pick a spot on the continuum and stick with it. Don't care if it's realistic or arcade. Just be consistent.


DeadZombie
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#87

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:25 PM

Y RB RB left RB LB RT LB
/thread.
Were you watching the best driver in the game? Perhaps Franklin? Whenever this is brought up its always over a video of Franklin with the highest stats on driving and ever will have then every charcter you are able to play. In short OP is big baby bitch.

 
I've been playing since Thursday. Character skill levels do not affect respective activities in a major way. Michael and Trevor handle cars essentially the same as Franklin, minus his slow-mo driving ability.

Y RB RB left RB LB RT LB
/thread.
Were you watching the best driver in the game? Perhaps Franklin? Whenever this is brought up its always over a video of Franklin with the highest stats on driving and ever will have then every charcter you are able to play. In short OP is big baby bitch.

 
I've been playing since Thursday. Character skill levels do not affect respective activities in a major way. Michael and Trevor handle cars essentially the same as Franklin, minus his slow-mo driving ability.

Oh I have to and you have to be blind not to notice the difference. He makes sharper turns better. Can easily pick up even after a spin outs. Slo no ability. When your playing as mike it's like you feel like your still feel alittle gta IV driving in there.

pookie1
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#88

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:25 PM

can someone answer me please why they think they changed the driving completly.

 

its tbogt but with more grip. please turn on your console and drive a bullet gt and compare it to gta v.... it look like a step up and not like a new "worse" driving mechanic

 

I think this way because I've been playing the game for about 15 hours now. And I've watched about 3 or so more hours of streaming. It's not a step 'up.' It's a step in a different (very, very different) direction.


hithere5
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#89

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:26 PM

Very well said, OP.


pookie1
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#90

Posted 15 September 2013 - 06:32 PM

Very well said, OP.

 

Thank you.

 

I wanted to make one additional point:

 

Consistency is important, from food to fitness to gaming. Even if something is consistently *bad*, it at least holds a cohesive look/feel/tone/taste/goal, or what-have-you.

 

I would ask anyone who does not see merit in this discussion to imagine Uncharted 3 with ice breath, or Shadow of the Colossus with COD-like XP flashing in the middle of the screen every time you complete a jump.

 

Those games go for a target feel. They engross you in that world by remaining consistent throughout. You wouldn't expect a hip-hop track to start blaring in Skyrim. It would break the immersion.





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