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The BIG Story Discussion thread

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Charles Phipps
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#1

Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:27 PM

Basically, a thread for discussing what many have termed to be an excuse plot. Basically, something just to explain away why Claude is wandering around doing criminal actions. I disagree. I actually think GTA3, while not having quite the same level of intricacy as later titles, has a pretty good storyline.

It's kind of cool there's a strong undercurrent of loyalty and betrayal underlining virtually all of the missions. Catalina betrays you during the heist, Salvatore betrays you, Maria betrays Salvatore, you betray Kenji, and (arguably) you betray Maria at the end. Though, in my opinion, I think Claude just fired the gun to get her to stop talking.

It works because there's not much underlining it, like Niko has in GTAIV. Disloyalty is a daily fact of criminal life and Claude actually works really well because he's a character with no loyalties to any of the criminals he temporarily attaches himself to. Unlike Tommy, who is obsessed with loyalty, Claude is the one to actually do the betrayal of the Yakuza. Which is kind of cool when you think about it.

To screw instead of be screwed is a nice change of pace in storytelling, but I felt semi-bad about it.

As for the rest of the story, I kind of like how Claude is a figure who changes the balance of power eveywhere in the city. All of the mobsters are at a comfortable place when Claude comes around but he's capable of shifting all of the power balances in the city. He destroys the Triads, Mobs, Yakuza, and eventually the Cartel. In the end, the entire city is against him because while everyone is happy when he's working FOR THEM--well, "just business" doesn't work in real-life or GTA.

What did you guys think of GTA3's story and what did you like/dislike about it?
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GtaIvFanboy
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#2

Posted 01 September 2013 - 01:51 AM

I Liked the VERY Memorable Dialogue its the only gta where i can literally remember all the dialogue from each scene. but i disliked how the Leone part of the story ended so Abruptly after you killed Salvatore.

Charles Phipps
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#3

Posted 01 September 2013 - 03:00 AM

QUOTE (GtaIvFanboy @ Sunday, Sep 1 2013, 01:51)
I Liked the VERY Memorable Dialogue its the only gta where i can literally remember all the dialogue from each scene. but i disliked how the Leone part of the story ended so Abruptly after you killed Salvatore.

How would you have handled it, if I may ask?

I admit, I think they could have done more. I actually was surprised Maria was supposed to be his wife rather than his daughter.
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Xegethra
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#4

Posted 01 September 2013 - 12:26 PM

I'm glad they got rid of the Mafia so soon, while the Mafia are cool story element to games....I kinda get sick of seeing the same gangs over and over in TV and games because it's all just the mob.

But yeah, I like the story, some scenes feel a bit rushed and I would have liked a bit more elaboration on them but overall they did a good job on it. I also like the betrayal element, there ends up only being two gangs who respect you in the whole city and won't try to shoot at you, the Yakuza and the Hoods...even though Claude screwed over the Yakuza, they just don't know it was Claude. There are only 7 gangs in the city anyway...so 5 of them going after you probably isn't really a lot (8 of them end up hating you in GTA 2...yes, I'm including Mad Island..9 if you count the Yutes).

Claude ends up in this maze of respect and betrayal, and all he wanted to do was rob a bank with Catalina and the Columbians but they were like "Nope" and left him for dead. Of course he was gonna win out in the end but along the way I liked most of the characters you met.

Charles Phipps
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#5

Posted 01 September 2013 - 01:30 PM

I like to think the only reason Claude betrayed Kenji was because of the man's nonstop dripping racism.

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#6

Posted 01 September 2013 - 01:56 PM

QUOTE (Charles Phipps @ Sunday, Sep 1 2013, 16:30)
I like to think the only reason Claude betrayed Kenji was because of the man's nonstop dripping racism.

Then you've got it wrong. It wasn't racism, it was the fact that he would have done everything to get his revenge.

Charles Phipps
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#7

Posted 01 September 2013 - 02:40 PM

QUOTE (Th3MaN1 @ Sunday, Sep 1 2013, 13:56)
QUOTE (Charles Phipps @ Sunday, Sep 1 2013, 16:30)
I like to think the only reason Claude betrayed Kenji was because of the man's nonstop dripping racism.

Then you've got it wrong. It wasn't racism, it was the fact that he would have done everything to get his revenge.

Hurting the Cartel doesn't necessarily get him any closer to Catalina. It's open to interpretation I think.

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#8

Posted 01 September 2013 - 04:00 PM

I think the strongest element in the story is Claude, the greatest protagonist in the series. My backstory for him is that he was a scholar/athlete (say, English major and star quarterback) at Saint Matthias University. Catalina saw him as a disposable tool and seduced him for her bank job. He was naive and fell for her but still had doubts about the criminal life (note that in the opening scene, he fires his shotgun into the wall by the door; trying to look and sound dangerous but not wanting to actually hurt anyone.) So the story is one of a nice young guy getting toughened up for a hard world. (It's another thing when he steps from the elevator in Grand Theft Aero: most likely he's wiped out the Cartelistas around the construction site using some very powerful weapon, the M16, say, but he rides up that building with nothing but a wimpy pistol--and then, seeing Catalina and Miguel, he fires into the air--still ambivalent.)

Another thing: part of the story depends on the choices the player makes. I've only done 100% one time, but gradually I've come to reject some missions out of loyalty to select gangs. The betrayal theme is powerful, but if Claude is hostile to everyone it doesn't mean much; much more significant if he's faithful to those who oppose his enemies (so if he sees a Mafioso going after an unarmed Diablo, he'll take out the the Mafioso.) There's no moral problem whacking Salvatore, Catalina, and (I think) Maria, but doing Kenji sets up a fantastic moral dilemma. When Asuka arrives on the scene and says "We all saw the Cartel assassin!") Claude just stands there, smiling innocently, when he could've said: "Well, actually, Asuka, I did rather waste your brother, for Donald Love, who paid me $30,000. Hope you're not mad."

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#9

Posted 01 September 2013 - 04:24 PM

He already was a criminal before the events of GTA 3. In San Andreas he is an illegal street racer and that's how he and Catalina meet, It could also be presumed that he was also a robber at that time and street racing was just a pastime.

But as for what happens before these games, yeah you can make up his life as you want....and as San Andreas was made after GTA 3...we don't really know how long the story was or how much of it was planned when. You could come up with 4 books released over a period of 6 years, but still could have had all that story planned out before the first book. But even if in San Andreas he is just a cameo to set up more story for Catalina, before these games you can pretty much tell he has lead a criminal life for years, nobody would jump into a massive bank job like that being a rookie bad guy....

In the opening cutscene to GTA 3, he doesn't shoot a wall, he shoots a security camera.

As for Claude betraying all the gangs...it makes sense, he doesn't care about any gang beyond what they can do for his revenge (or what he thinks they can do, even if he turns out to be wrong). He isn't loyal to gangs....not by the time of GTA 3. After the cutscene intro he is working with the Columbians, but evidentially they betray him and you can tell by the events of the game that he abandons the concept of loyalty to any gang (killing Kenji is an example)....he uses them as much as they would use him as he very well knows, a gang can betray easily....and so can he. It's a case of betray or be betrayed...it's inevitable it seems.

The whole point of GTA 3 is Claude was betrayed, and left for dead...and after that he only looks out for number one as he learns the hard way that you can't trust anyone. Maybe he lets Maria live at the end of the game though..I like to think that after he got his revenge on Catalina, he chose to go easy on someone for once and just shot to keep her quiet.

Charles Phipps
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#10

Posted 01 September 2013 - 09:15 PM

QUOTE (Xegethra @ Sunday, Sep 1 2013, 16:24)
He already was a criminal before the events of GTA 3. In San Andreas he is an illegal street racer and that's how he and Catalina meet, It could also be presumed that he was also a robber at that time and street racing was just a pastime.

But as for what happens before these games, yeah you can make up his life as you want....and as San Andreas was made after GTA 3...we don't really know how long the story was or how much of it was planned when. You could come up with 4 books released over a period of 6 years, but still could have had all that story planned out before the first book. But even if in San Andreas he is just a cameo to set up more story for Catalina, before these games you can pretty much tell he has lead a criminal life for years, nobody would jump into a massive bank job like that being a rookie bad guy....

In the opening cutscene to GTA 3, he doesn't shoot a wall, he shoots a security camera.

As for Claude betraying all the gangs...it makes sense, he doesn't care about any gang beyond what they can do for his revenge (or what he thinks they can do, even if he turns out to be wrong). He isn't loyal to gangs....not by the time of GTA 3. After the cutscene intro he is working with the Columbians, but evidentially they betray him and you can tell by the events of the game that he abandons the concept of loyalty to any gang (killing Kenji is an example)....he uses them as much as they would use him as he very well knows, a gang can betray easily....and so can he. It's a case of betray or be betrayed...it's inevitable it seems.

The whole point of GTA 3 is Claude was betrayed, and left for dead...and after that he only looks out for number one as he learns the hard way that you can't trust anyone. Maybe he lets Maria live at the end of the game though..I like to think that after he got his revenge on Catalina, he chose to go easy on someone for once and just shot to keep her quiet.

I dunno, Claude didn't show any sign of betraying the Leone family until Salvatore decided to kill him.

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#11

Posted 01 September 2013 - 09:38 PM

Well, he might not really care much about who he works for but that doesn't mean he has to betray them. I still think it's an over all betray or be betrayed, it started off with betrayal from Catalina then Maria with the Mafia which roped Claude into it. Then Claude tries his hand at it with the Yakuza, in an effort to get closer to Catalina. Claude probably wouldn't betray anyone unless he sees it as benefiting him. He might not be loyal to a gang but that still doesn't mean he will betray them though, he could just drift away or outright leave if he wanted to, if he sees them as no longer getting him closer to his goal.

Charles Phipps
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#12

Posted 01 September 2013 - 09:56 PM

While I think he wants to get at Catalina, I don't think he joined the Yakuza to get at them. I think he was more concerned about protecting himself from Salvatore.

Then again, I think Claude isn't a revenge-obsessed juggernaut but a career criminal who is trying to get by.

As stated, part of the fun is you get to write his personality in your head.

Mine is a consummate professional whose only weakness is getting betrayed and disrespected. Which is why he destroys Salvatore with the force of an angry god.

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#13

Posted 01 September 2013 - 11:55 PM

QUOTE
Really a simple thread, did GTA 3 have a bad plot? My answer is yes. The game had the best setting of just about any video game even 12 years on now, the characters were memorable and we only spent a few minute long (at best) cut scenes with them. So yeah, the setting was good, the set up was nice, the rising action was great, and then....meh.

We give up 500k which is supposed to be important but we already should of had a million from the insane inflation value of the missions, we lose our weapons in an obvious set up, we punch a dude to death which is admittedly one of the most bad ass scenes in Video Game history, and then the rest makes no f*cking sense. Claude escapes the mansion and then Catalina flies to the Cochrane Dam where the Cartel had like 20 guys with military grade weapons waiting....wtf why? Can we just pause for a moment and wonder why the hell they were their in the first place? Even for Liberty City 20 foreigners military style occupying the cities primary water and power supply seems like a big f*cking deal. What was Catalina planning on her thugs at the Cedar Grove mansion missing every shot? Seriously what the flying f*ck.

Anyway then we get to Cochrane we kill all the foreigners and then bam Catalina drops Maria off on the helicopter pad. Why? f*cking why? Seriously what the f*ck is the purpose? Also if they had a helicopter with a rocker launcher or whatever why not just kill Claude while he's in route to the Dam? And even if you want to say

"Well the rocket launcher was at the Dam, they had to go pick it up"

Why leave the damn launcher on the Dam? As if the 20 M-16's Claude just picked up hasn't already made this fight hard enough for you to win.

So of course Claude kills everyone because they were comically stupid in their actions and shooting ability, and then BAM he kills Maria. Well it's off screen so we don't even get to see that, even though we all get he killed her.


OK so the climax of the game sucked dick, the rising action started sucking the moment Love just disappeared (Love being the most interesting character in game mind you) and now there's no falling action at all. It's just Claude walks into the sunset after getting his revenge on his retarded former girlfriend and resumes betting hookers to death with a baseball bat.

Good game, horrible plot.

My basic thoughts on GTA 3's plot.

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#14

Posted 03 September 2013 - 11:39 AM

QUOTE (bobgtafan @ Sunday, Sep 1 2013, 23:55)
QUOTE
Really a simple thread, did GTA 3 have a bad plot? My answer is yes. The game had the best setting of just about any video game even 12 years on now, the characters were memorable and we only spent a few minute long (at best) cut scenes with them. So yeah, the setting was good, the set up was nice, the rising action was great, and then....meh.

We give up 500k which is supposed to be important but we already should of had a million from the insane inflation value of the missions, we lose our weapons in an obvious set up, we punch a dude to death which is admittedly one of the most bad ass scenes in Video Game history, and then the rest makes no f*cking sense. Claude escapes the mansion and then Catalina flies to the Cochrane Dam where the Cartel had like 20 guys with military grade weapons waiting....wtf why? Can we just pause for a moment and wonder why the hell they were their in the first place? Even for Liberty City 20 foreigners military style occupying the cities primary water and power supply seems like a big f*cking deal. What was Catalina planning on her thugs at the Cedar Grove mansion missing every shot? Seriously what the flying f*ck.

Anyway then we get to Cochrane we kill all the foreigners and then bam Catalina drops Maria off on the helicopter pad. Why? f*cking why? Seriously what the f*ck is the purpose? Also if they had a helicopter with a rocker launcher or whatever why not just kill Claude while he's in route to the Dam? And even if you want to say

"Well the rocket launcher was at the Dam, they had to go pick it up"

Why leave the damn launcher on the Dam? As if the 20 M-16's Claude just picked up hasn't already made this fight hard enough for you to win.

So of course Claude kills everyone because they were comically stupid in their actions and shooting ability, and then BAM he kills Maria. Well it's off screen so we don't even get to see that, even though we all get he killed her.


OK so the climax of the game sucked dick, the rising action started sucking the moment Love just disappeared (Love being the most interesting character in game mind you) and now there's no falling action at all. It's just Claude walks into the sunset after getting his revenge on his retarded former girlfriend and resumes betting hookers to death with a baseball bat.

Good game, horrible plot.

My basic thoughts on GTA 3's plot.

I agree with bits of that.

I like the plot, especially with your ability to interpret it as you want and the theme of betrayal being interesting but not shoved down your throat, however there are problems. For example, I always assumed that killing Kenji would come back to bite Claude in some way, that Asuka would find out or whatever. I was surprised that the game didn't draw any conflict from it, instead that it would just draw focus solely to the Maria and Catalina story by making all the other plot threats fizzle out -- Asuka dies offscreen, Love disappears, etc. I love the majority of the plot, I'm OK with the ending, it's just that they could have made it come together more.

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#15

Posted 06 September 2013 - 05:02 PM

The story has a lot of points where Claude is in danger like when Catalina betrayed him and when Sal wants to take action but he gets through it all. I liked that it had so much humor but was really dark too with the rain storms.


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#16

Posted 12 November 2013 - 07:04 PM Edited by Revenge of the Donut, 12 November 2013 - 07:04 PM.

The betrayal bits on Claudes part actually make a lot of sense to me, simply because Claude gets shot by a woman who has been his girlfriend for since the events of San Andreas, If he can't trust her then who can he trust? I guess getting shot was a big wake up call for him, he must have decided to put himself first after that even if it meant betraying everyone else, for Claude it's the go-to option because the illusion has been shattered for him. Plus the concept of loyalty and honour is really just a way to cover the bosses ass while they bump off everyone else, (look at real life gangsters and how they stab each other in the back after spending years together as 'brothers'.) < I think III really nailed that dog eat dog mentality perfectly in all honesty, there really is no honour amongst thieves when it comes down to it.


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#17

Posted 26 November 2013 - 06:04 AM

There really is no big story. That's what made this game so interesting and fun. The story is a parody (as it should be) and it's entertaining, and down right fun to play through over and over.


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#18

Posted 30 November 2013 - 05:16 PM

Grand Theft Auto III had a very good storyline in my opinion, you play as a character who has just been arrested for robbing a bank with his girlfriend who sets him up but he luckily escapes from police custody on route to the Liberty Penitentiary due to a bomb placed on Callahan Bridge.

 

For Claude, he is stuck in Portland alone, 8 Ball gives him a safe house in the Red Light District and then Claude has to find his own way to get money - It would be unlikely for him to get a job in the city without being noticed as the Bank Robbing Criminal he is and so must resort to further criminal action under the direction of Luigi to gain cash.

 

Then, after a series of crimes, pissing off other gangs, he gets reunited with Catalina, who has kidnapped Maria and fights his way through the Cartel to finally kill Catalina so he can finally "lay low"

 

 

We give up 500k which is supposed to be important but we already should of had a million from the insane inflation value of the missions, we lose our weapons in an obvious set up, we punch a dude to death which is admittedly one of the most bad ass scenes in Video Game history, and then the rest makes no f*cking sense. Claude escapes the mansion and then Catalina flies to the Cochrane Dam where the Cartel had like 20 guys with military grade weapons waiting....wtf why? Can we just pause for a moment and wonder why the hell they were their in the first place? Even for Liberty City 20 foreigners military style occupying the cities primary water and power supply seems like a big f*cking deal. What was Catalina planning on her thugs at the Cedar Grove mansion missing every shot? Seriously what the flying f*ck. 

 

Of Course Catalina wasn't planning for the Cartel at the mansion to miss every shot but with the name Claude made for himself, he was potentially the most dangerous criminal in Liberty City - If the LCPD and Military can't take him down outside of missions, do you really expect 10 Cartel Members at a mansion?





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