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TLAD potential

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jonsworld42
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#1

Posted 23 July 2013 - 01:43 AM

Don't you think rahkstar2.gif could have done more with TLAD? I for one, think it could have been alot longer with a lot more drama / sidemissions and things to do. Anybody else have a take on this?

GTASuspectOnFoot
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#2

Posted 23 July 2013 - 03:46 AM

For the price it was good. Consider that Call of Duty DLC costs $15 and only gives you 4 maps to play on.

jonsworld42
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#3

Posted 23 July 2013 - 04:07 AM

QUOTE (GTASuspectOnFoot @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 03:46)
For the price it was good. Consider that Call of Duty DLC costs $15 and only gives you 4 maps to play on.

Heck I wouldn't mind paying a little more for more content when it comes to GTA at least

B Dawg
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#4

Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:37 AM Edited by DarkKingBernard, 26 September 2013 - 08:08 AM.

Think it would have worked better as a DLC to GTA V, with all the countryside and all.

 

Edit: (but without the awful new vehicle handling)


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#5

Posted 23 July 2013 - 08:39 PM

Its a DLC. they dont sell much so i dont see the point of making it any bigger. in fact i was surprised that R* made EFLC as big as it is.

Nameless Foot Soldier
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#6

Posted 28 August 2013 - 07:08 AM

I always thought that maybe a system in which Johnny controls gang turf and drug trade methods would have been cool. Like put you in the work of the gang business somewhere in the club house.

FearTheLiving
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#7

Posted 28 August 2013 - 02:49 PM

1. Gang Leadership (Being able to tell your gang to take cover in certain places and basically have some options over your gang so they don't get killed)
2. Melee on Bike (Would have been nice to use it outside of Racing)
3. Working Tow-truck.
4. More Missions (Story just felt rushed at times)
5. More Costumes for Johnny (At least his GTA IV one would have been nice)

That's pretty much all I could want from TLaD that it didn't give us.

HoleInTheSky
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#8

Posted 06 September 2013 - 09:32 PM

Some ideas come to mind.

 

More general activity within the motorcycle club:

 

  • Members parking their bikes along the right side of the clubhouse, riding off etc near where a random member is usually found inspecting his bike.
  • Since they are probably mechanics too, the garage you delivered the stolen bikes for Angus to, should've been open and used as a garage.
  • Lost members do back you up, but you can't recruit them. That was a disappointment first time playing.
  • Bringing the multiplayer Club Business into singleplayer for added side-missions.

 

Other stuff:

 

  • Larger portion of the missions should've been dedicated to the war with the AOD (I felt it was bypassed simply to appease generic GTA fans who didn't want to stick with riding a bike).
  • Like the post above me mentions, giving Johnny Klebitz a variety of clothes, including his original look.
  • Broker had a chapter, but no clubhouse existed. It would've been logical to add one, obviously not as detailed and emphasised as Alderney's, but certainly the option to access it, which could then act as another safe house later on.

Jordiath VII
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#9

Posted 06 September 2013 - 09:48 PM

I actually liked TLAD to be honest. Seemed fine to me.

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Nem Wan
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#10

Posted 07 September 2013 - 02:52 AM

It could have been longer. I think Rockstar themselves felt frustrated that the budget and schedule situation imposed by this deal with Microsoft forced the episodes to be this exact amount of content. It's an awkward size, economically.  It's a ton of work to create all the "stuff" a GTA character interacts with, so once you have all that groundwork laid, to have this arbitrary low number of missions (compared to a full GTA game) is a shame.

 

On the other hand, only 28% of players finished GTAIV's main story according to Microsoft's achievement stats, so a story one-third as long makes sense in a sad way.


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#11

Posted 18 September 2013 - 06:27 PM

Of course we all feel this way, because we all fell into the select niche that loved the game.

 

Sad truth is, most GTA fans really are not much better than the CoD types. San Andreas is considered "THE fan game."

Why? Because of a well assembled story with good voice actors? Because of environment with atmosphere? No, fans loved just all the zany novelties... planes, beating up prostitutes, jetpacks. I find it so funny how anti-Saint's Row GTA fans are, when what they want out of GTA is basically what Saint's Row provides.

 

Consequently, Rockstar made a niche game for those who wanted it, but didn't put the effort in because beggers can't be choosers.

If anyone has played into Trevor's section of GTA V already, you'll see how much Rockstar really doesn't give a flying f*ck about TLaD or its fanbase.


Nameless Foot Soldier
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#12

Posted 20 September 2013 - 12:44 AM

Of course we all feel this way, because we all fell into the select niche that loved the game.

 

Sad truth is, most GTA fans really are not much better than the CoD types. San Andreas is considered "THE fan game."

Why? Because of a well assembled story with good voice actors? Because of environment with atmosphere? No, fans loved just all the zany novelties... planes, beating up prostitutes, jetpacks. I find it so funny how anti-Saint's Row GTA fans are, when what they want out of GTA is basically what Saint's Row provides.

 

Consequently, Rockstar made a niche game for those who wanted it, but didn't put the effort in because beggers can't be choosers.

If anyone has played into Trevor's section of GTA V already, you'll see how much Rockstar really doesn't give a flying f*ck about TLaD or its fanbase.

Fans of TLAD should try to think about the title a bit more. "The Lost and Damned", Lost forever, damned till the end. Now that I think about it, GTA V's cameo is quite fitting. Johnny truly was the Lost boy who was damned from the beginning..


Grievous
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#13

Posted 28 September 2013 - 07:49 PM

I for one, think it could have been alot longer with a lot more drama / sidemissions and things to do.

 

For the price it was good.

 

Its a DLC. they dont sell much so i dont see the point of making it any bigger. in fact i was surprised that R* made EFLC as big as it is.

 

But here lies the problem ; we wished it had more content , but due to the idea that it is a DLC , it was a damned project from the beginning , because they simply couldn't put all the necessary length to make it satisfactory to their storytelling pacing ...

 

The alternative could have been to make Lost and Damned into a two part DLC and sacrifice Ballad of Gay Tony in the process ...

But this idea would have been too outrageous for them to accept , most fans wouldn't want it either ...

 

Although now that we've seen the result of Ballad ... I think I do rather have an uncompromising full Lost and Damned experience instead ...

 

 

  • Larger portion of the missions should've been dedicated to the war with the AOD (I felt it was bypassed simply to appease generic GTA fans who didn't want to stick with riding a bike).
  • Broker had a chapter, but no clubhouse existed. It would've been logical to add one, obviously not as detailed and emphasised as Alderney's, but certainly the option to access it, which could then act as another safe house later on.

 

 

These two , absolutely ...

Angels of Death and the Broker Lost Chapter both acted as if they were cannon fodders , only there for Johnny and Luis to shoot at ...

The AoD weren't necessarily going to be major antagonists , but they lack even this sense of 'presence'. Think about the fights between Ballas and Grove Street in San Andreas in comparison. The Ballas weren't the game's main antagonist , but they carry a sufficient presence both in gameplay and cutscenes that they at least felt carrying some threat when wandering around Los Santos ...

 

In Lost and Damned the developers focused more on the 'free-nature' of the Gang War side missions , where you cruise around the city and strike the bikers when you feel it is appropriate , and while this can create interesting gameplay scenarios , AoDs carry very little presence in the actual story.

 

The Broker Lost Chapter was a big 'out of nowhere' moment for me when Johnny and Jim talked on the phone over meeting bikers from a different chapter since it was nearer to where the heist was about to take place. This felt immensely weird for several reasons: during standard gameplay Johnny can ride where ever he pleases with his Alderney chapter crew, and quite often you're also tasked in traversing several neighborhoods before reaching your destination, either it be hangout locales with friends, or destinations in Gang War. And although it is true that in the story missions' perspective you rarely ventured into Broker, there's this complete lack of warning on the fact that The Lost MC had two clubhouses in Liberty, one in Alderney and another in Broker. There isn't a single mention, not one, to the fact that the Lost is a much bigger gang than it seemed.

But then, even after this mission is completed, the Broker Chapter is never mentioned again. Johnny never cares to find out why did all the accompanying bikers died either.

 

If the Uptown Riders managed to make appearances, why not the other Lost Brotherhood from Liberty ? Don't they also have a leader who has his own plight to take care of ? maybe they disagree seeing Johnny leading the Alderney chapter since they were more centered on Billy's leadership style ? ...

Such potential to deliver more drama ! gone ! ...

 

With the amount of sticky bombs Luis thrown to fend off bikers it can be assumed that the Broker Chapter ceased from that point on. But it could also been mere story to gameplay segregation: having hordes of enemies to fight back is more exhilarating than just four small frail lives to push over.

 

 

It could have been longer. I think Rockstar themselves felt frustrated that the budget and schedule situation imposed by this deal with Microsoft forced the episodes to be this exact amount of content. It's an awkward size, economically.  It's a ton of work to create all the "stuff" a GTA character interacts with, so once you have all that groundwork laid, to have this arbitrary low number of missions (compared to a full GTA game) is a shame.

 

On the other hand, only 28% of players finished GTAIV's main story according to Microsoft's achievement stats, so a story one-third as long makes sense in a sad way.

 

 

Part of the reason why this game didn't garnered as much success in the story and character department compared to the other entries is due to this: it simply wasn't long enough to get its point across. Not in the sense of dragging it out, but it lacked those moments that captivated the attention people had over Niko Bellic and John Marston.

Those moments consists nothing more than actual banter and talking in fact. But these were long pages of script and dialogues and character mood that is spread over evenly on large amount of missions.

And while Lost and Damned had its share of dialogues and atmosphere, it wasn't spread evenly, which can lead to faults in pacing, which is more notable in the game's second act which begins when Johnny takes over presidency: Johnny had to deal with a civil war , drug trade and cop killing for a Bohan coke lord , pay off Ashley's debt , steal diamonds and then steal the money (which , by the way , is a two million dollar worth briefcase that goes completely un-recovered) , fight off mobsters and finally jail break.

 

It's a lot. And all this account for only half of the game, eleven missions.

Let me be more precise about it: i'm not saying all these events shouldn't account for half of the game, but rather it takes the same length of the game compared to the first half! And the first act was a relatively fresh breather in comparison because while many events do occur across the first eleven missions, those events were light-sided in its plot progression: Jim's run down with the bent cops and Stubb's assignments were short and limited because that's the most they were going to contribute to the plot (although it can be arguable with Stubbs). Meanwhile the civil war with Brian was only two missions worth , same as for the bent cops subplot , yet the civil war was such a devastating event to the characters it just feels rushed to have it said and done in as much length as a passing subplot. It just fails to resonate more with the player and critics.

 

I don't think making the Lost and Damned into a ninety story mission such as Niko Bellic had would have benefitted it either , in fact just twice its length would have done , still shorter than the PSP Stories , but definitively more effective since , unlike the PSP Stories , this game has an actual plot progression thread over it ...

 

I had been partially writing a proposition as how to potentially enhance the Lost and Damned's story while still keeping all the original missions ... but as it turns out what I've written is such over-kill in terms of length I rather had it on another topic instead , while this one be kept for the lament of wasted potential discussions ...

 

 

Of course we all feel this way, because we all fell into the select niche that loved the game.

 

Sad truth is, most GTA fans really are not much better than the CoD types. San Andreas is considered "THE fan game."

Why? Because of a well assembled story with good voice actors? Because of environment with atmosphere? No, fans loved just all the zany novelties... planes, beating up prostitutes, jetpacks. I find it so funny how anti-Saint's Row GTA fans are, when what they want out of GTA is basically what Saint's Row provides.

 

Consequently, Rockstar made a niche game for those who wanted it, but didn't put the effort in because beggers can't be choosers.

If anyone has played into Trevor's section of GTA V already, you'll see how much Rockstar really doesn't give a flying f*ck about TLaD or its fanbase.

 

I actually started out playing GTA with San Andreas , but when I played GTA IV , I didn't hate it for not being the same as before , in fact I embraced it even more easily than when I first set my eyes on the 'car jacking' franchise before I got familiar with it ...

I still enjoy San Andreas , and I can't help but applaud it's constant originality in giving me unique circumstances in each succeeding missions.

 

And although GTAIV showed us how 'cool' it is to be able to walk down the street instead of just sprinting everywhere like a artificial avatar , I do feel that there is this missed opportunity in both presenting this new direction as well as keeping in mind what made previous 'cartoony' games successful: their un-predictableness.

 

In the case of the Lost and Damned , it carried too much of GTA IV's DNA with it to lure in fresh newcomers, while the 'biker gang' mechanics were kept limited due to DLC's nature of limitation.

But with Ballad of Gay Tony, they hilariously missed the point altogether by giving us something that resembles more of a game-jam experimentation rather than an actually 'Rockstar presents' orchestrated and well paced product. So while you mostly do get unique situations to play with from one mission to the next, it completely lacks cohesion with the actual sandbox playground of Liberty City, which at least the Lost and Damned managed to make it credible that lone riders make hit-and-run moves all over town. Ballad could almost be argued as a self-conscious from Rockstar, that they wish to prove that you just can't place any wild and random situation into Liberty City just because some fans had wanted the return of outrageousness so much.

Spoiler

But then you have to wonder if it's being ironic or is it really just that ... it ? ...

 

  

So , in my mind , the Episodes of Liberty City both missed their fullest potential ... but at least they are still more entertaining than most other sandbox titles or third person shooters , in a way ...


Grievous
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#14

Posted 29 September 2013 - 02:07 PM

There's another missed opportunity regarding the concept of the Sawn-off shotgun:

 

At mid point through the game we're introduced to the assault shotgun, that is a blast to use on foot but can't be used for drive-bys except for that unique on-rail scripted section. Therefor players are forced to constantly choose and change as to which shotgun they plan to use, do they wish to operate missions and gang wars strictly on their bike or run on foot?

Which is why the game introduced another new automatic handgun, as a new drive-by weapon to use when the player don't have the sawn off.

 

But here's the thing, why wasn't the sawn off placed in the 'handgun' slot instead of the shotgun slot? So that essentially the player gets and uses both at the same time.

Would it make the player too over-powered? I don't see the inconvenience to it, considering how with each DLC they always liked to give more destructive power to the player's arsenal.

 

This would also make the 'execution' scenes different now that the player can either had a pistol or a sawn off in hand, and since the game only had two execution scenes, would it have been so bad to have two versions to each? as another trick for replay incentives ? ...


B Dawg
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#15

Posted 29 September 2013 - 02:19 PM

I thought the 'Street Sweeper' Auto Shotgun was OP and too out of place, that a weapon like it should have been in TBOGT.


Grievous
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#16

Posted 29 September 2013 - 03:04 PM

On the contrary I thought it was a sheer matter of brilliance , though it may have originated from an accidental programming:

 

The armsel striker from which it is based off is a semi-automatic shotgun , implementing it as a new weapon would have just been labeled as more speed and damage effective shotgun compared to the GTA IV pump action one. But then , I believe that during the process of creating the "Shifting Weight" on-rail mission , it was accidentally programmed to fire off at full automatic mode with no require to reload , making it essentially the GTA IV's variation of the gatling gun. The programmers must have saw it as moment of novelty and decided to keep the glitch and portray it the world's first full automatic armsel striker.

 

This is even more plausible when the AA-12 shotgun featured in Ballad of Gay Tony , which in real life is fully automatic , was downgraded to a semi automatic shotgun with a large ammo capacity , as they 'used up' their fully automatic shotgun in the Lost and Damned ...

 

But the fact is that despite the assault shotgun being too over-powered , the Lost and Damned still holds the more difficult missions compare to Ballad and GTA IV ...

So it evens out ...


B Dawg
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#17

Posted 29 September 2013 - 03:10 PM

But the fact is that despite the assault shotgun being too over-powered , the Lost and Damned still holds the more difficult missions compared to Ballad and GTA IV ...

So it evens out ...

Difficult? I must disagree. The episode was far easier than the Ballad even without it.


Grievous
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#18

Posted 29 September 2013 - 03:44 PM

Really ? I thought Ballad's missions were simply too straight laden out. You can even complete the game using only the body armors given to you in the missions without ever needing to call out Armando's gun van for purchases, whereas in Lost and Damned I have to call Terry to ensure survival, especially with Gang Wars, otherwise it's a huge risk taking position.

I'll agree though that there was a good chunk of missions in Lost and Damned that are of minimal difficulty, especially in chase sequences -last time I played "Angels in America" the game's second level where you have to chase down AoD bikers, I killed all but one biker with just one sawn off shotgun blast when they were turning a street corner not fifteen seconds right after the mission starts out; they were all so close and lined up to one another I basically ruined the mission for myself as I didn't got to the interesting part of chasing through the Alderney tunnel.

 

The only self-imposed difficulty from Ballad comes from wanting to reach the 100% evaluation, but I find them to be too, Too far out of place in the GTAIV setting: why would I want to hurry up and finish every driving section under a time limit and zip pass through the dialogues? even if I don't like the story all that much, I try not to just pull out a "I don't give a damn" mood. Why would I want to be careful in shooting sections and aim strictly for the head and reach full accuracy percentage? where's the fun of blind-firing gone to? and what's the point of giving me a machine gun with two hundred rounds of ammo if i'm not suppose to spray it all over the place? And vehicle damage limitation? what?!

That and the fact that every mission in Ballad ends with a ridiculously louder than average 'mission accomplished' sound effect just puts me off greatly from wanting to attempt its 100% evaluation.

At least when it gives optional objectives it is worth a shot, but they are too few of those.

 

Otherwise, I rarely if ever failed at a mission in Ballad; I fail during GTAIV and Lost and Damned mostly when I try to do 'something stupid' like rushing in on people and trying to kill them off at close range , mostly since I never use the assault rifle , which I find to be quite over-powered really , you just take cover and pop accurate shots every time with it, no incentive to use the environment or pull out improvisational strategies.


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#19

Posted 29 September 2013 - 04:40 PM

Ballad had a few annoying missions, but not necessarily hard. Just with stupid gamey rules, like how Luis forgets how to use parachutes in certain parts of the game.

 

The Assault Rifle is overpowered though and to make it worse, it's not only the best weapon it's also the most cost efficient one. Not that money really matters either but yeah, the gun fights (and this is true in 5 as well honestly) don't exactly challenge or encourage creativity in terms of strategy or weapon choice.


Grievous
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#20

Posted 29 September 2013 - 07:19 PM

Which is precisely why I generally go for pistols or shotguns.

 

Heck I recall that back on my very first playthrough of Grand Theft Auto IV , I found out quickly enough that the first handgun I've been given was the most satisfying to use in creating raw and lasting firefights, and ended up using it for nearly three quarters of its missions.

 

Ballad mostly had boring missions , not just annoying , it had missions that consisted of nothing but drive from one spot to another , some even asking to follow a very strict unchanging route , and although it serves well to deliver dialogue and banters for character exposition , it's just a pity that most of the cast just comes and goes , leaving nothing to digest ...

I just kept feeling i'm doing Stranger's quest for a good third of the game ...

 

Luis forgetting how to use a parachute never happened to me , though I would like to see how it happens ...

It'll actually bring me back nostalgia when playing with Carl Johnson in San Andreas , where the parachute will glitch at times and still propel you straight to the ground dead even if it was opened ! and in that game it was much more annoying since you lose all your weapons upon being sent to the hospital , a feature that they removed in GTA IV onward for no explanation ...

Not that i'm bothered with it , but completely un-explained nonetheless ...

 

And now with recent Rockstar titles , culminating even with GTAV , I see that it's a point they're making in simplifying the gameplay challenge to the point where it's shallow ... which I still find it hard to believe , Rockstar of all people ...


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#21

Posted 30 September 2013 - 10:11 PM

Not that I care much for it , but the presence of an underground cage fight in Ballad versus the total absence of objective-based melee fighting in Lost and Damned just seems slightly misplaced ...

 

A bit like how Vice City Stories introduced a bribing option to regain all your weapons after being wasted or busted , and yet Liberty City Stories -which stars the mafia and shows their inner dealings with city officials- didn't had the bribing feature that seemed more suitable in its case rather than the former ...

 

Using the baseball bat exclusively during the bike races was a interesting small addition to make the races potentially more engaging , at least for the beginning of the races , but the fact that it is tied to one of the game's only five achievements/trophies , and that it requires a huge grind just to reach that oh-so-funny 69 number count , and to have no additional gameplay reward unlock to it , was just plain silly ...

 

Otherwise the fact that the Liberty City Gun Club never once came to fruition also seems like an missed opportunity ...

 

But to keep Lost and Damned in mind , additional side missions would have been nice for the game's second half , since all four side missions are unlocked in the first half and once player take a look at it they may either never touch it again or they may have simply gone tired to bother replaying them afterwards ...


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#22

Posted 30 September 2013 - 11:00 PM Edited by Peachrocks, 30 September 2013 - 11:01 PM.

Luis forgetting how to use the parachute isn't a bug or anything, unless you count silly game design as a bug. It's on the mission where Luis finds the Cook's head on the roof top from Bulgarin and he has to escape the roof.

 

Even if he has a parachute equipped before going up there it will somehow vanish from his inventory. More 'amusing' is that there is an outer stairwell right alongside him, yet if he tries to jump down to it, he overextends and plummets to his death because you have to take the preplanned 'scripted' route out.

 

Funny how you mention Ballad's strict 'unchanging route' now you mention it, a lot of it did feel like it was on rails, far more then GTA4 and TLAD. GTA4 had some issues with this as a whole, but that was really notably in BoGT.

 

As for the whole challenge thing. I dunno, it really depends on how the challenge is delivered because it's so easy to go wrong with it. In fact, it's not just Rockstar, it's everywhere, it's been a long time since I've seen anything deliver challenge right.

 

I guess I've come to accept 'engaging' as opposed to challenging. Hell I don't even like being challenged in games most of the time because I instinctive think 'how is the game going to bullsh*t me this time', which is what most challenge is made of these days rather than actual 'challenge' if you get me.





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