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9/11 Independent Investigation?

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RockStarNiko
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#91

Posted 23 July 2013 - 10:25 PM

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 21:26)

I can't believe ....



RoadRunner71
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#92

Posted 23 July 2013 - 10:28 PM

Even the US Army considers Vietnam as a counter insurgency war. Considering that the Afghan War was somehow for the Soviets like the Vietnam for the Americans, it could certainly say that it was also a counter insurgency focused war.

Ilikehotcrossbuns
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#93

Posted 23 July 2013 - 10:32 PM

QUOTE (RoadRunner71 @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 22:28)
Even the US Army considers Vietnam as a counter insurgency war. Considering that the Afghan War was somehow for the Soviets like the Vietnam for the Americans, it could certainly say that it was also a counter insurgency focused war.

What?

RoadRunner71
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#94

Posted 23 July 2013 - 10:43 PM

QUOTE (Ilikehotcrossbuns @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 22:32)
QUOTE (RoadRunner71 @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 22:28)
Even the US Army considers Vietnam as a counter insurgency war. Considering that the Afghan War was somehow for the Soviets like the Vietnam for the Americans, it could certainly say that it was also a counter insurgency focused war.

What?

Sorry if my explanation aren't the best. To my understanding, you've said that these two wars, Afghan and Vietnam, hadn't nothing to do with counter insurgency. However, even the US Army, in their manuals, mention this wars as heavily based in the counter insurgency (as well as the other cover wars indirectly aimed against the Soviet Union).

Sorry again if my explanations aren't good, I try the best with my english level confused.gif

Ilikehotcrossbuns
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#95

Posted 23 July 2013 - 10:46 PM

QUOTE (RoadRunner71 @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 22:43)
QUOTE (Ilikehotcrossbuns @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 22:32)
QUOTE (RoadRunner71 @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 22:28)
Even the US Army considers Vietnam as a counter insurgency war. Considering that the Afghan War was somehow for the Soviets like the Vietnam for the Americans, it could certainly say that it was also a counter insurgency focused war.

What?

Sorry if my explanation aren't the best. To my understanding, you've said that these two wars, Afghan and Vietnam, hadn't nothing to do with counter insurgency. However, even the US Army, in their manuals, mention this wars as heavily based in the counter insurgency (as well as the other cover wars indirectly aimed against the Soviet Union).

Sorry again if my explanations aren't good, I try the best with my english level confused.gif

No your English is fine, I wasn't sure what you meant.

Sure the U.S Army told the soldiers and the public that it was a counter insurgency, but that doesn't make it true.

lil weasel
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#96

Posted 23 July 2013 - 10:59 PM

Insurgency are people fighting against a legit Government.
Freedom Fighter are fighting to get Foreign government troops to leave.

the U.S. was in Viet Nam to keep the 'first domino' from falling in the world wide 'fight for democracy' against communism.

Stromae
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#97

Posted 23 July 2013 - 11:21 PM

I find it strange people still want another investigation into 9/11. It has been more than 10 years ago. Most people under 18 don't even remember it, they only heard of it from others or saw it on TV or YT. Isn't it time to let it go?

sivispacem
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#98

Posted 24 July 2013 - 07:19 AM Edited by sivispacem, 24 July 2013 - 08:09 AM.

QUOTE (Ilikehotcrossbuns @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 23:16)
Well let's look at the definiton [sic] of COIN, shall we?

Actually, that's the Wikipedia definition of "insurgency", not "counter-insurgency", so isn't the definition of COIN by any stretch of the imagination, but never mind.

QUOTE (Ilikehotcrossbuns @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 23:16)
Aghanistan [sic] in ohhhhhhhhhhh anytime [sic] since the 50's was not a counter insurgency as the US was fighting a proxy war with the Soviet Union, even the most biased historian accepts this. The current Afghan war is a simple case of an occupying force invading a country for the purpose of finding a suspected terrorist.

I don't think the strategic landscape makes a huge difference to what is categorised as counter-insurgency and what isn't. As far as I can see, Afghanistan port-2003 has been categorised by a violent non-state actor aiming to overthrow an internationally accepted government (you can argue the semantics of the current Afghan administration all you want, they're still recognised by the UN as the authorities of a nation state). Afghanistan in 1979 much the same, except probably an even stronger example of an insurgency in relation to the Mujahideen given that conflict between the Saurists and the insurgents started before the Soviet deployment.

QUOTE (Ilikehotcrossbuns @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 23:16)
Nothing to do with counter insurgency.

Well, you might want to tell NATO, RAND, the Brookings Institution, Harvard Standing Committee of Regional Studies –Russia Eastern Europe, and Central Asia and RUSI that.

QUOTE (Ilikehotcrossbuns @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 23:16)
Every strategic theorist in the world has not done so.

Want to find me a few who have categorically claimed that Afghanistan and/or Iraq are not counter-insurgency conflicts?

QUOTE (Ilikehotcrossbuns @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 23:16)
The latter part of this essay, which you entitled 'in short' makes the former part redundant.

Actually, the focus is somewhat different, but I wouldn't expect you to understand that..

QUOTE (Ilikehotcrossbuns @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 23:16)
Again, the Afghan war was not and is not a counter insurgency by any definition.

Well, it sort of was as I've demonstrated above, but don't worry yourself unduly.

QUOTE (Ilikehotcrossbuns @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 23:16)
Removing a military presence in Iraq was not possible to to the complete incompetence of the runners of that war

We can agree on that.

QUOTE (Ilikehotcrossbuns @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 23:16)
100% of all oil exports are now under the control of western oil firms and their subsidiaries.

Actually, if you look at the participants in the 2009 oil services contracts, you'll see that of the 16 participating organisations in oil field operations (including duplicates), seven are Western owned. CNPC, the Chinese state-owned oil company, has the strongest showing and the combined production share of Chinese, Malaysian and Russian state- and publicly-owned producers outweighs production from "Western" nations by a considerable margin. But let's not let facts get in the way of your argument, shall we?

QUOTE (Ilikehotcrossbuns @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 23:16)
If the Irag [sic] situation can be now described as counter insurgency it is because of the gaping hole that the war left in any notion of actual security for that country.

Again, agreed, but the insurgency started long before that. Unless you are suggesting that every Iraqi government post 2004 was illegal in the eyes of international organisations?

QUOTE (Ilikehotcrossbuns @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 23:16)
As for the point of 'any rational actor' well you're not dealing with rational people when you are talking about a government with a military and economic power which dwarfs the rest of the world.

Why assume the rationality of a state actor is in any way derived from their military or political strength?

RockStarNiko
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#99

Posted 26 July 2013 - 04:55 AM

QUOTE (ThaBoY @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 23:21)
I find it strange people still want another investigation into 9/11. It has been more than 10 years ago. Most people under 18 don't even remember it, they only heard of it from others or saw it on TV or YT. Isn't it time to let it go?

Let it go? It only been 12 years, got plenty of time to go yet.

Holocaust was over 65 years ago, slavery even longer and some people even still go on about the Crusades tounge.gif

Tchuck
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#100

Posted 26 July 2013 - 05:13 AM

QUOTE (RockStarNiko @ Thursday, Jul 25 2013, 20:55)
QUOTE (ThaBoY @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 23:21)
I find it strange people still want another investigation into 9/11. It has been more than 10 years ago. Most people under 18 don't even remember it, they only heard of it from others or saw it on TV or YT. Isn't it time to let it go?

Let it go? It only been 12 years, got plenty of time to go yet.

Holocaust was over 65 years ago, slavery even longer and some people even still go on about the Crusades tounge.gif

Because the holocaust killed millions, slavery was the literal enslavement of a population of the planet based on their skin tone alone, and the crusades death toll is also in the millions. How the f*ck does any of that compare to 9/11?

Sleepy187.
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#101

Posted 26 July 2013 - 01:01 PM

QUOTE (Tchuck @ Friday, Jul 26 2013, 08:13)
QUOTE (RockStarNiko @ Thursday, Jul 25 2013, 20:55)
QUOTE (ThaBoY @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 23:21)
I find it strange people still want another investigation into 9/11. It has been more than 10 years ago. Most people under 18 don't even remember it, they only heard of it from others or saw it on TV or YT. Isn't it time to let it go?

Let it go? It only been 12 years, got plenty of time to go yet.

Holocaust was over 65 years ago, slavery even longer and some people even still go on about the Crusades tounge.gif

Because the holocaust killed millions, slavery was the literal enslavement of a population of the planet based on their skin tone alone, and the crusades death toll is also in the millions. How the f*ck does any of that compare to 9/11?

Millions in the Middle East suffered from it.

sivispacem
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#102

Posted 26 July 2013 - 01:27 PM

QUOTE (Sleepy187. @ Friday, Jul 26 2013, 14:01)
QUOTE (Tchuck @ Friday, Jul 26 2013, 08:13)
QUOTE (RockStarNiko @ Thursday, Jul 25 2013, 20:55)
QUOTE (ThaBoY @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 23:21)
I find it strange people still want another investigation into 9/11. It has been more than 10 years ago. Most people under 18 don't even remember it, they only heard of it from others or saw it on TV or YT. Isn't it time to let it go?

Let it go? It only been 12 years, got plenty of time to go yet.

Holocaust was over 65 years ago, slavery even longer and some people even still go on about the Crusades tounge.gif

Because the holocaust killed millions, slavery was the literal enslavement of a population of the planet based on their skin tone alone, and the crusades death toll is also in the millions. How the f*ck does any of that compare to 9/11?

Millions in the Middle East suffered from it.

Not directly they didn't.

Sleepy187.
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#103

Posted 26 July 2013 - 01:33 PM

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Friday, Jul 26 2013, 16:27)
QUOTE (Sleepy187. @ Friday, Jul 26 2013, 14:01)
QUOTE (Tchuck @ Friday, Jul 26 2013, 08:13)
QUOTE (RockStarNiko @ Thursday, Jul 25 2013, 20:55)
QUOTE (ThaBoY @ Tuesday, Jul 23 2013, 23:21)
I find it strange people still want another investigation into 9/11. It has been more than 10 years ago. Most people under 18 don't even remember it, they only heard of it from others or saw it on TV or YT. Isn't it time to let it go?

Let it go? It only been 12 years, got plenty of time to go yet.

Holocaust was over 65 years ago, slavery even longer and some people even still go on about the Crusades tounge.gif

Because the holocaust killed millions, slavery was the literal enslavement of a population of the planet based on their skin tone alone, and the crusades death toll is also in the millions. How the f*ck does any of that compare to 9/11?

Millions in the Middle East suffered from it.

Not directly they didn't.

Maybe not directly, but they still did suffer a lot from it.

However, I am going to steer clear from these subjects as it is an endless debate.
We'll never know what happened unless we will invent time travelling in the far future and go back as some entities to see the reality.
It's a dead subject.

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#104

Posted 26 July 2013 - 01:33 PM



Word'




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