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Croatia joins the EU

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sivispacem
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#61

Posted 02 July 2013 - 09:15 PM

QUOTE (I So Brink @ Tuesday, Jul 2 2013, 22:09)
Maybe someone can school me on this but I thought, because we (i.e. the UK) weren't part of the Schengen Area, we didn't have the "open borders" that BRTILAND seems to assume we have like most other EU states? We're actually one of the few arseholes in Europe who think we should get different rules just "because".

We don't have open borders, and we aren't in the Schengen area. As usual with his ilk, everything is based on utter sh*t.

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#62

Posted 02 July 2013 - 09:22 PM

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Tuesday, Jul 2 2013, 21:15)
QUOTE (I So Brink @ Tuesday, Jul 2 2013, 22:09)
Maybe someone can school me on this but I thought, because we (i.e. the UK) weren't part of the Schengen Area, we didn't have the "open borders" that BRTILAND seems to assume we have like most other EU states? We're actually one of the few arseholes in Europe who think we should get different rules just "because".

We don't have open borders, and we aren't in the Schengen area. As usual with his ilk, everything is based on utter sh*t.

Thought so.

For anyone interested in how a lot of the EU works (especially stuff like Schengen, the EEA, the Euro etc.), a guy on YouTube who's pretty well known for explaining complicated political things like it just uploaded this the other day. It's informative and quite funny too, thankfully.

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#63

Posted 02 July 2013 - 09:26 PM

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Tuesday, Jul 2 2013, 21:03)
QUOTE (BRITLAND @ Tuesday, Jul 2 2013, 21:20)
I didn't say anything about banning, I just want the system to be more strict, like no open borders which the EU orders for its members to have .

For someone who whines incessantly about how Britain should banish anyone who doesn't follow a particular stereotype of Britishness, you do make a mockery of our language.

What's wrong with what is said in facts this is the web, spelling & punctuation doesn't matter

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#64

Posted 02 July 2013 - 09:29 PM

Well, it'd be nice if your english were actually coherent. You know, so we could understand what you're saying.

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#65

Posted 02 July 2013 - 09:35 PM

QUOTE (BRITLAND @ Wednesday, Jul 3 2013, 03:26)
this is the web, spelling & punctuation doesn't matter

Oh trust me, in this forum it matters a lot. This isn't Facebook where you can talk like an idiot and get away with it.

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#66

Posted 02 July 2013 - 09:38 PM Edited by Valenta, 02 July 2013 - 09:39 PM.

QUOTE (BRITLAND @ Tuesday, Jul 2 2013, 21:26)
this is the web, spelling & punctuation doesn't matter

The Internet does have standards, believe it or not.

sivispacem
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#67

Posted 02 July 2013 - 09:39 PM

QUOTE (BRITLAND @ Tuesday, Jul 2 2013, 22:26)
What's wrong with what is said in facts this is the web, spelling & punctuation doesn't matter

You see, the primary issue with your comments is that what you say isn't actually factual. As has been commented on numerous times so far in this thread. If you're going to be empirically wrong, you might as well do it with a modicum of respect for the language of the nation you claim to be defending. That's just common courtesy. Your belief that spelling and punctuation doesn't matter does little more than vindicate my earlier assessment of you as a knuckle-dragging simpleton who uses foreign nationals as an easy and convenient scapegoat for your own inabilities and social difficulties. Which to be honest can be applied across much of history, and many of the people who seem to possess an irrational hatred of foreigners in the UK despite the pretty substantial empirical evidence suggesting that, far from being a drain on society as numb-skulls such as yourself will moan, actually contribute positively to personal wealth and economic security by showing a disproportionately high ration of economic activity compared to domestic citizens of an equivalent socio-economic background.

Or, to put it into words you might be capable of comprehending, Eastern European EU nationals have both a higher employment rate and a lower benefit rate than domestic citizens of a comparable level of education and social mobility.

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#68

Posted 03 July 2013 - 02:55 AM

QUOTE (MWC @ Wednesday, Jul 3 2013, 03:46)
QUOTE (Stefche @ Tuesday, Jul 2 2013, 18:03)
Great, hopefully Serbia will be next.

hopefully Serbia will never be a part of the EU, after seeing what "good" it brought to our dear neighbours (Romania, Bulgaria)

It's brought a lot of good, what are you talking about?

Open trade is the exact thing Serbia needs; it's f*cking shameful how inefficient Tadic was at handling the privatisation of Serbian industries (Kostunica did a brilliant job at it, as did Djindjic), I mean, don't they still hold a majority share of JAT? They received tenders from both Greek and Austrian Airlines, yet turned them down for really dubious reasons (they weren't valued high enough, bla bla). It's a private tender process, you're not meant to try and maximise your gain, you're meant to try and find the most economically efficient private sector firm to take over, and I really don't see how f*cking Austrian Airways did not fit that bill. Nikolic seems more apt with economic matters (thanks primarily to Mladjan Dinkic), although he's been pre-occupied with negotiating with Pristina (another great achievement) to worry too much about deregulation and privatisation. Joining the EU will only speed that up and will actually involve Serbian industry more with Western Europe, facilitating more trade and incentivising Serbian industry to become as efficient as it can be. And you and I both know that Serbian industry and the Serbian economy has a lot of potential; do you want to see that wasted away while we keep on fidgeting across awkward trade and political barriers with Western Europe while sucking off the teet of Russia?

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#69

Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:23 AM

Surely when there's millions of unemployed, having an open door to immigrants is a bad idea. If we don't have enough jobs for the people already here then it stands to reason that increasing the population will result in a higher benefits bill. I don't understand how having an open door policy within the EU is a good thing. If living standards throughout the EU were consistent then it might be fair but it seems to me that they vary greatly.

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#70

Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:49 AM

QUOTE (John The Grudge @ Wednesday, Jul 3 2013, 08:23)
Surely when there's millions of unemployed, having an open door to immigrants is a bad idea..

Two things wrong with this statement. One, we don't have an open door immigration policy at all. We don't even have free movement of labour between Europe and the UK courtesy of not being a member of the Schengen group. Two, we have plenty of jobs in the economy, but our domestic education system has been so slow to respond to changing demand that we can't internally meet these requirements due to lack of applicable capacity. It is financially more viable for organisations to recruit abroad than it is to retrain domestic staff. Claiming that you shouldn't permit immigration until there is no free capacity amongst domestic workers is incredibly economically ignorant.

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#71

Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:09 PM

Might be time to move this to D&D, yeah?

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#72

Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:35 PM

Good luck to them,hopefully rest of the Western Balkan will follow. Still,situation in EU countries shows that just being a member doesn't solve all problems. You need to keep working hard and improve economy to survive in market economy.

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#73

Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:43 PM

QUOTE (Stefche @ Wednesday, Jul 3 2013, 03:55)
QUOTE (MWC @ Wednesday, Jul 3 2013, 03:46)
QUOTE (Stefche @ Tuesday, Jul 2 2013, 18:03)
Great, hopefully Serbia will be next.

hopefully Serbia will never be a part of the EU, after seeing what "good" it brought to our dear neighbours (Romania, Bulgaria)

It's brought a lot of good, what are you talking about?

Open trade is the exact thing Serbia needs; it's f*cking shameful how inefficient Tadic was at handling the privatisation of Serbian industries (Kostunica did a brilliant job at it, as did Djindjic), I mean, don't they still hold a majority share of JAT? They received tenders from both Greek and Austrian Airlines, yet turned them down for really dubious reasons (they weren't valued high enough, bla bla). It's a private tender process, you're not meant to try and maximise your gain, you're meant to try and find the most economically efficient private sector firm to take over, and I really don't see how f*cking Austrian Airways did not fit that bill. Nikolic seems more apt with economic matters (thanks primarily to Mladjan Dinkic), although he's been pre-occupied with negotiating with Pristina (another great achievement) to worry too much about deregulation and privatisation. Joining the EU will only speed that up and will actually involve Serbian industry more with Western Europe, facilitating more trade and incentivising Serbian industry to become as efficient as it can be. And you and I both know that Serbian industry and the Serbian economy has a lot of potential; do you want to see that wasted away while we keep on fidgeting across awkward trade and political barriers with Western Europe while sucking off the teet of Russia?

If by good you mean their debt and unemployment pretty much doubled since their ascension into the EU than i totally agree, not to mention all the young people who are emigrating in rows to the richer countries, it pretty much means the countries are doomed with no way out other than slavery to the rich countries of the EU.

The only thing open trade could bring to countries in development at this point, would be that the richer countries would import quality products to the newly accepted countries for cheap, while peddling their own low quality products for a higher price, which would only make the economies of the said countries break even, or even trade at a loss which again means that the poorer countries would become credit slaves of the richer countries, all the while the unemployment rates would rise, just like what is happening with Greece and Spain and much stronger countries than those newly accepted into the EU. If this is happening to stronger and richer countries, why do you think it will be different and not worse with Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia, Albania and others ?

About the sale of public sector i don't even wish to comment. You know that the corrupt government(s) only work for their own pocket and not for the country, the reason there are private tenders (and the reason that JAT and other firms still remain in the public sector) is because the companies who bid didn't offer enough payload to the politicians making decisions and not because the offers weren't good enough.

I honestly think the people of Croatia made a bad mistake submitting to the EU slavery, but that is only my opinion and only time will tell. Besides by the time Serbia and other Balkan countries wanting to join the EU currently (10+ years of negotiations), judging by the current political wind in Europe, by the time negotiations are done EU won't even exist anymore.

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#74

Posted 03 July 2013 - 12:57 PM Edited by Stefche, 03 July 2013 - 03:39 PM.

QUOTE (MWC @ Wednesday, Jul 3 2013, 22:43)
QUOTE (Stefche @ Wednesday, Jul 3 2013, 03:55)
QUOTE (MWC @ Wednesday, Jul 3 2013, 03:46)
QUOTE (Stefche @ Tuesday, Jul 2 2013, 18:03)
Great, hopefully Serbia will be next.

hopefully Serbia will never be a part of the EU, after seeing what "good" it brought to our dear neighbours (Romania, Bulgaria)

It's brought a lot of good, what are you talking about?

Open trade is the exact thing Serbia needs; it's f*cking shameful how inefficient Tadic was at handling the privatisation of Serbian industries (Kostunica did a brilliant job at it, as did Djindjic), I mean, don't they still hold a majority share of JAT? They received tenders from both Greek and Austrian Airlines, yet turned them down for really dubious reasons (they weren't valued high enough, bla bla). It's a private tender process, you're not meant to try and maximise your gain, you're meant to try and find the most economically efficient private sector firm to take over, and I really don't see how f*cking Austrian Airways did not fit that bill. Nikolic seems more apt with economic matters (thanks primarily to Mladjan Dinkic), although he's been pre-occupied with negotiating with Pristina (another great achievement) to worry too much about deregulation and privatisation. Joining the EU will only speed that up and will actually involve Serbian industry more with Western Europe, facilitating more trade and incentivising Serbian industry to become as efficient as it can be. And you and I both know that Serbian industry and the Serbian economy has a lot of potential; do you want to see that wasted away while we keep on fidgeting across awkward trade and political barriers with Western Europe while sucking off the teet of Russia?

If by good you mean their debt and unemployment pretty much doubled since their ascension into the EU than i totally agree, not to mention all the young people who are emigrating in rows to the richer countries, it pretty much means the countries are doomed with no way out other than slavery to the rich countries of the EU.

The only thing open trade could bring to countries in development at this point, would be that the richer countries would import quality products to the newly accepted countries for cheap, while peddling their own low quality products for a higher price, which would only make the economies of the said countries break even, or even trade at a loss which again means that the poorer countries would become credit slaves of the richer countries, all the while the unemployment rates would rise, just like what is happening with Greece and Spain and much stronger countries than those newly accepted into the EU. If this is happening to stronger and richer countries, why do you think it will be different and not worse with Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia, Albania and others ?

The negative consequences you're talking about have nothing to do with free trade. It's common economic knowledge that free trade and open borders spur the wider creation of economic wealth for both parties, as it merely allows firms in both countries to buy and sell services across borders without being dragged down by tariff and quota costs. It just flat out doesn't contribute to this idea that opening up borders will send everyone in Serbia broke... Have you ever taken a class in economics?

The reason Greece, Spain, Italy, Romania, Bulgaria etc. are struggling economically are multifaceted and extend from two primary causes: (a) ramifications of the GFC, and the impact this had on financial markets. Combine this with exceeding government debt (which a lot of European countries possess) and their sovereign credit rating will take a hit, forcing up interest rates at which governments borrow, exacerbating the amount of repayments and thus precluding them from being able to provide government services at the levels they were providing beforehand, and driving them into austerity in an effort to keep themselves from going bankrupt. (B) Inefficient industries which were subsidised by INDIVIDUAL GOVERNMENTS and INDIVIDUAL GOVERNMENT MISTAKES further contributed to sluggish economic growth today, with the best example of this being Italy, where labour laws are frustratingly complex and filled with red tape, leading to a massive drop in productivity growth over the past decade (well, at least for as long as Berlusconi was in power) which has only amplified their level of unemployment and their sluggish economic growth.

The economic problems experienced by European countries are primarily the responsibility and fault of the individual countries, their parliaments and their own fiscal mismanagement. They are not symptoms of the European project itself; if anything, more effective European cohesion (through a properly managed banking system, with common rules extending across the Eurozone) would provide more financial stability and confidence to financial institutions than the removal of the EU, seeing everyone return back to their old currencies (as idealistic and nice as that would be... Why don't we recreate Yugoslavia while we're being all nostalgic, ey?)

QUOTE
About the sale of public sector i don't even wish to comment. You know that the corrupt government(s) only work for their own pocket and not for the country, the reason there are private tenders (and the reason that JAT and other firms still remain in the public sector) is because the companies who bid didn't offer enough payload to the politicians making decisions and not because the offers weren't good enough.


That was my point. They're Balkan politicians, what can we expect?

QUOTE

I honestly think the people of Croatia made a bad mistake submitting to the EU slavery, but that is only my opinion and only time will tell. Besides by the time Serbia and other Balkan countries wanting to join the EU currently (10+ years of negotiations), judging by the current political wind in Europe, by the time negotiations are done EU won't even exist anymore.


Honestly, I disagree, as once European economies recover, this whole nonsense about the EU collapsing will largely end up as water under the bridge. It's still going to be there in 20 years, along with the euro.

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#75

Posted 03 July 2013 - 03:17 PM

QUOTE (Stefche @ Wednesday, Jul 3 2013, 13:57)
Honestly, I disagree, as once European economies recover, this whole nonsense about the EU collapsing will largely end up as water under the bridge. It's still going to be there in 20 years, along with the euro.

made my day lol.gif

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#76

Posted 03 July 2013 - 03:31 PM Edited by sivispacem, 03 July 2013 - 03:35 PM.

QUOTE (Stephan123 @ Wednesday, Jul 3 2013, 16:17)
QUOTE (Stefche @ Wednesday, Jul 3 2013, 13:57)
Honestly, I disagree, as once European economies recover, this whole nonsense about the EU collapsing will largely end up as water under the bridge. It's still going to be there in 20 years, along with the euro.

made my day lol.gif

He's right though. We all know you dislike the EU but your disdain for it doesn't translate into a rational argument supporting the idea that it will cease to exist. And the various measures implemented in it that member states must abide by effectively make leaving it economic suicide.

Nay sayers have been predicting the demise of the EU for pretty much the entire 15 years I've been aware enough of it to participate in discussion on the subject. It's still here, isn't it? I see no reason it would end now above any other time.

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#77

Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:28 PM

Welcome to the slavery.

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#78

Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:47 PM

QUOTE (ACR @ Wednesday, Jul 3 2013, 16:28)
Welcome to the slavery.

icon14.gif They can go getting ready for losing the half of their rights...

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#79

Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:54 PM

QUOTE (RoadRunner71 @ Wednesday, Jul 3 2013, 17:47)
QUOTE (ACR @ Wednesday, Jul 3 2013, 16:28)
Welcome to the slavery.

icon14.gif They can go getting ready for losing the half of their rights...

Not exactly the half, it's more like 70-80% of all laws, which are guided by EU decisions

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#80

Posted 04 July 2013 - 02:53 PM

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Wednesday, Jul 3 2013, 07:49)
It is financially more viable for organisations to recruit abroad than it is to retrain domestic staff. Claiming that you shouldn't permit immigration until there is no free capacity amongst domestic workers is incredibly economically ignorant.

It's not ignorant, it's actually genius.

You've got loads of people on the dole with no qualifications or skills relevant to the available jobs. Only training they can get free is NVQ six day rubbish. They're hopeless.

At the same time, you've got companies hiring from abroad, ignoring the people already here, simply so there's more profit.

Stop them hiring from abroad, they'll have no alternative but to start hiring people and training them up.

There you go, that's helped unemployment massively, companies will have to pay to get them all trained and ready for their new field. All that training money circulating, all those newly employed people eager to finally buy some decent clothes, stop eating horse burgers, etc...

A massive reduction in unemployment, a massive boost to the economy. A narrowing of the rich poor divide. The only problem is that some poor, hard done by businessman might not have the money to give himself a bonus this year. Poor him, my heart bleeds.

sivispacem
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#81

Posted 04 July 2013 - 03:41 PM

Given that it is primarily the SME sector which drives growth, requires specialist skills and experience, and needs to recruit from abroad because the costs of training people domestically are unsustainable, who ends up paying for this additional training? The SMEs can't afford it, and nor can the government. Want to revise your theory to take account of this?

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#82

Posted 04 July 2013 - 03:44 PM

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Thursday, Jul 4 2013, 15:41)
Given that it is primarily the SME sector which drives growth, requires specialist skills and experience, and needs to recruit from abroad because the costs of training people domestically are unsustainable, who ends up paying for this additional training? The SMEs can't afford it, and nor can the government. Want to revise your theory to take account of this?

Here's a revision: make taxation not such a joke and suddenly they can afford it.

I woulda thought you'd go for all the other problems with that idea. Illegal immigration would probably spike, and the idea of having to pay people to boot them back out repulses me.

sivispacem
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#83

Posted 04 July 2013 - 04:00 PM

QUOTE (LeVelocar @ Thursday, Jul 4 2013, 16:44)
QUOTE (sivispacem @ Thursday, Jul 4 2013, 15:41)
Given that it is primarily the SME sector which drives growth, requires specialist skills and experience, and needs to recruit from abroad because the costs of training people domestically are unsustainable, who ends up paying for this additional training? The SMEs can't afford it, and nor can the government. Want to revise your theory to take account of this?

Here's a revision: make taxation not such a joke and suddenly they can afford it.

I woulda thought you'd go for all the other problems with that idea. Illegal immigration would probably spike, and the idea of having to pay people to boot them back out repulses me.

I just went for the first glaring flaw I noticed. I'm not sure if the taxation side of things would work either, given that most SMEs basically don't pay any corporation tax as they plow all their net gains into R&D/expanding/ect. There are, of course, things like employer's NI and the like but there are already exceptions and limitations for small companies.

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#84

Posted 04 July 2013 - 04:45 PM

Not tax the SMEs, tax all the other buggers who avoid it like the plague. Send the top income tax bracket back up to 91%. Drive starbucks into the sea. Eat the rich.

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#85

Posted 04 July 2013 - 04:49 PM

My friend who lived in Croatia for the first 20 years of his life who is big into politics said this is a sh*t move. After he explained it I agree with him.




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