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Why do people even think the Illuminati exist?

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Niko Vercetti 112
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#1

Posted 22 June 2013 - 01:07 PM

Before I start, I'm not one of these "Conspiracy Theoriests are paradnoid idiots" type people, I'm actually an avid believer, I just fail to see how people think the Illuminati could even feasibly exist.
To think-
If there was an all knowing, all powerful organisation running the entire world how could they even operate without someone spilling the beans?
Why wouldn't any of the "puppet" world leaders just rebel against them? They would have enough power to do so.
What's the point in staging wars? For their own entertainment? Dream on...
If they wanted to keep themselves secret why the hell would they supposedly implant their symbol in millions of pop-culture peices from music videos to sport matches?

The entire concept of the Illuminati still existing in this day and age is so stupid it makes me laugh my ass off, in particular when millions of younger people are starting to believe it.

Lexty.
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#2

Posted 22 June 2013 - 01:24 PM

The illuminati is the system, and the system does what it wants.. when it wants. And for the record, not all theorists believe in the 'illuminati'.

sivispacem
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#3

Posted 22 June 2013 - 01:35 PM

QUOTE (Coat. @ Saturday, Jun 22 2013, 14:24)
And for the record, not all theorists believe in the 'illuminati'.

Most believe in something like the Illuminati conspiracy theory- a secret, quasi-political, quasi-economic, transnational covert organisation run from the shadows by individuals largely unknown, for the purposes of cultivating power over their fellow man, demeaning all other authority and perpetrating self-beneficial actions at the expense of international society. Basically every conspiracy theory boils down to the existence of this organisation, but different people interpret it differently. Some think it's a cabal of aliens running the world. Some- anti-Semites and neo-Nazi nutters, mostly- buy into the idea of Zionists doing it (see also; the Protocols of the Elders of Zion hoax). The various US militia organisations blame it on conventional politicians, the military or Jews, depending which militia movement you happen to be observing. I've heard time-travelling androids too, but I'm pretty sure that's a piss-take.

I can't think of a single conspiracy theory which doesn't effectively boil down to the tenet "because there is a secret organisation of malevolent individuals unknown running the world for their personal benefit at the expense of their fellow man". Which goes a long way to explaining why pretty much all conspiracy theories are utter bilge, because they're all based on a fundamentally flawed tenet with no actual evidence to substantiate it.

Raavi
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#4

Posted 22 June 2013 - 01:36 PM Edited by Raavi, 22 June 2013 - 01:40 PM.

The Illuminati is just a name popularized by Dan Brown's book Angeles & Demons and the subsequent film adaptation, which lead to millions upon millions of new beLIEvers. When and how people are referring to the illuminati they're rudimentally referring to an overarching entity that 'controls' sundry industries and the entertainment industry in particular. Which sounds feasible to a certain extent - as yes there are very puissant companies that have a certain degree political influence, and yes actors and singers are in essence puppets of the industry. Until they start expounding the 'illuminati's' satanic reasoning behind what they're supposedly doing that is.

What laymen seem to forget is that entertainment is business like any other industry and that it's all about money. Which pretty much explains/justifies singers saying things along the lines of "I sold my soul to the devil' with the devil referring to the corporate component of entertainment. Which is, and I speak from experience as I have had dealings with entertainment companies in the past - tough as nails. They don't really care that much about the quality of the song, movie - they care about generating as much revenue as possible - business in a nutshell. Sony Music Entertainment for example:



or this (please ignore the title and the last part of the video, what the respective celebrities are saying is what it is about as they're referring to the business part behind entertainment, a part of being famous they usually aren't ready for nor have experience with.)


Lexty.
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#5

Posted 22 June 2013 - 01:40 PM

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Saturday, Jun 22 2013, 13:35)
QUOTE (Coat. @ Saturday, Jun 22 2013, 14:24)
And for the record, not all theorists believe in the 'illuminati'.

Most believe in something like the Illuminati conspiracy theory- a secret, quasi-political, quasi-economic, transnational covert organisation run from the shadows by individuals largely unknown, for the purposes of cultivating power over their fellow man, demeaning all other authority and perpetrating self-beneficial actions at the expense of international society. Basically every conspiracy theory boils down to the existence of this organisation, but different people interpret it differently. Some think it's a cabal of aliens running the world. Some- anti-Semites and neo-Nazi nutters, mostly- buy into the idea of Zionists doing it (see also; the Protocols of the Elders of Zion hoax). The various US militia organisations blame it on conventional politicians, the military or Jews, depending which militia movement you happen to be observing. I've heard time-travelling androids too, but I'm pretty sure that's a piss-take.

I can't think of a single conspiracy theory which doesn't effectively boil down to the tenet "because there is a secret organisation of malevolent individuals unknown running the world for their personal benefit at the expense of their fellow man". Which goes a long way to explaining why pretty much all conspiracy theories are utter bilge, because they're all based on a fundamentally flawed tenet with no actual evidence to substantiate it.

Right. So what you're saying is the 'illuminati' is the government? Basically what I stated in my post.

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#6

Posted 22 June 2013 - 01:48 PM

In my opinion, it's the same than the religion. When the people don't know how to explain something resort to the imagination and, in result, to gods, secret organizations, conspiracies, etc.

For example, lately it's being shown on TV that series of that weird guy obsesed with aliens, I think it's called Ancient Aliens, or some kind of similar crap. Basically, it explains every big construction, civilization or natural phenomenon stating that aliens visited the earth and decided to f*ck around the humans. Same goes for conspiracies such as the illuminati and religions. So, summed up:

user posted image

sivispacem
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#7

Posted 22 June 2013 - 01:51 PM Edited by sivispacem, 22 June 2013 - 01:54 PM.

QUOTE (Coat. @ Saturday, Jun 22 2013, 14:40)
QUOTE (sivispacem @ Saturday, Jun 22 2013, 13:35)
QUOTE (Coat. @ Saturday, Jun 22 2013, 14:24)
And for the record, not all theorists believe in the 'illuminati'.

Most believe in something like the Illuminati conspiracy theory- a secret, quasi-political, quasi-economic, transnational covert organisation run from the shadows by individuals largely unknown, for the purposes of cultivating power over their fellow man, demeaning all other authority and perpetrating self-beneficial actions at the expense of international society. Basically every conspiracy theory boils down to the existence of this organisation, but different people interpret it differently. Some think it's a cabal of aliens running the world. Some- anti-Semites and neo-Nazi nutters, mostly- buy into the idea of Zionists doing it (see also; the Protocols of the Elders of Zion hoax). The various US militia organisations blame it on conventional politicians, the military or Jews, depending which militia movement you happen to be observing. I've heard time-travelling androids too, but I'm pretty sure that's a piss-take.

I can't think of a single conspiracy theory which doesn't effectively boil down to the tenet "because there is a secret organisation of malevolent individuals unknown running the world for their personal benefit at the expense of their fellow man". Which goes a long way to explaining why pretty much all conspiracy theories are utter bilge, because they're all based on a fundamentally flawed tenet with no actual evidence to substantiate it.

Right. So what you're saying is the 'illuminati' is the government? Basically what I stated in my post.

No, what I'm saying is that the "illuminati" is in effect the same entity as any target onto which to apportion blame in a conspiracy theory. A fictional entity, somewhere between somewhat based on and and extremely loosely based on history or current affairs, but exaggerated, misrepresented or just good old fashioned invented to serve as a scapegoat for a small segment of the population who though wilful ignorance, gullibility, through manifestation of undiagnosed mental illness or scientific phenomena such as the DunningKruger effect, choose to deflect their own feelings of paranoia, social or societal inferiority or other negative characteristic on to an unseen, invisible and intangible adversary to try and subconsciously absolve themselves of any responsibility for their negativities. The "illuminati" isn't anything. It's a historical organisation than conspiracy theorists reinvented to effectively tell the gullible and the stupid "hey, it's not your fault you feel that way, it's 'the man' getting you down". Which is very nice for them, as it means the conspiracy theorists can line their pockets with donations and the income of book sales, set up organisations to spread their manure further afield, and allows the perpetrators to bask in the limelight of attention, which at the end of the day is the only reason that they engage in this kind of activity. I'd go further and say it was probably because mummy didn't hug them enough, or because daddy touched them too much, but I don't buy into Freudian psychoanalytics enough to do so with a straight face.

Raavi kind of alluded to this, but much of it is to do with ignorance. The reason people believe the "worshipping the devil through popular music" sputum is because people don't understand the economics of the entertainment industry. Similarly, people from certain social, economic and educational backgrounds- those with little to no formal political education, from lower socio-economic backgrounds and who hold less traditional, hierarchical social associations, tend to be drawn to these theories. Most, if not all of it, can be put down to ignorance.

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#8

Posted 22 June 2013 - 01:52 PM Edited by zoo3891, 22 June 2013 - 09:37 PM.

QUOTE (Niko Vercetti 112 @ Saturday, Jun 22 2013, 09:07)
If there was an all knowing, all powerful organisation running the entire world how could they even operate without someone spilling the beans?

If they wanted to keep themselves secret why the hell would they supposedly implant their symbol in millions of pop-culture peices from music videos to sport matches?

Just wanted to point out that these could conflict each other.

The illuminati we think of is probably just be a social meme that spreads through the people by word of mouth, and if there is a real society who call themselves the illuminati they're mostly just hype. And if the illuminati do exist I doubt satanism, paganism, Christianity, horned/hooved gods, Judaism, the goddess, etc. have anything to do with it at all, artists just like to f*ck with their audience sometimes.

Raavi
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#9

Posted 22 June 2013 - 02:44 PM Edited by Raavi, 22 June 2013 - 02:56 PM.

According to these admittedly crazy Illuminati-conspiracy theorists, there is no genuine logical explanation to history other than Satanic forces trying to achieve global dominance. Everything you can think ofMichael Jackson's unfortunate passing, the french Revolution, 9/11 happened according to them because the Illuminati was behind it it. Which is false.

Yes, puissant forces endeavor to control certain happenings. But these forces today, are political representatives of the capitalist-imperialist class, which do not have total control and their puissance doesn't emanate from anything satanic. Nor does it emanate from little green men, an obnubilated book, a super being, etc. No they derive their influence from something much, much less sinister; They own that what generates wealth in today's world. They own the factories that produce what we need, the agriculture, transportation and communication, the banks and other financial institutions, and so forth. This enables them to amass wealth, through in essence exploiting the labor of those who have no possibilities of engendering their own wealth, i.e the proletariat, which just happens to consist of billions and billions of people. Which basically means that that they take what these billions create each day through their hard labor and pay them enough to get by, if that. This is how they get/stay affluent

On the basis of the wealth that they have gained through exploitation, they shape and rule the official use of force in society; the military, police forces, correctional system, judicial system and so forth and decision making through the executive brand of government. They use/abuse governmental power to defend and enforce their interests. But because people will always be people and they have conflicting interests, they fight each other for control and the upper hand. Which tends to a lead to a lot of misery, namely for the people that had nothing to do with it.

So what is the root of the quandary, what is the real version of the 'illuminati'? Not a shadow regime consisting of evil lizard people crawled up in some dark cave. Not a group of old Jewish bankers. But a system in which one particular class controls the means of production and in the process exploits the labor of the largest chunk of earth's population. And utilize that power to control and shape the media, education.. to influence and control the ways that people think and go about their lives. . Like it or hate it, they play the game.

This is not some crazy conspiracy, this is a day to day reality. So, well there you have your 'illuminati'.

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#10

Posted 22 June 2013 - 08:16 PM

Illuminati was created for a group of enlightened thinkers in the 1700s, much like the Freemasons.

Modern Illuminati is ridiculous. You really think political figures like to work with each other? They are all in it for personal gain and wont hesitate to smear others.

Also, believing in it is giving away your power. You blame the problems of the world on a shadowy group. We speak in generalities, but live in specifics.

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#11

Posted 22 June 2013 - 09:19 PM

Everyone wants someone to blame for their mis-fortunes. What's better to blame than a "secret organization" that "controls everything"?

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#12

Posted 22 June 2013 - 09:33 PM

QUOTE (Niko Vercetti 112 @ Saturday, Jun 22 2013, 05:07)
What's the point in staging wars? For their own entertainment? Dream on...
If they wanted to keep themselves secret why the hell would they supposedly implant their symbol in millions of pop-culture peices from music videos to sport matches?

Yeah I can only wish that world leaders were evil and narcissistic enough for that. Real people just aren't as impressive as they are in the movies. sad.gif

sivispacem
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#13

Posted 22 June 2013 - 09:40 PM

There's an odd dichotomy between how we image powerful leaders and how they actually act. Thanks to various works of dystopian fiction, we all seem to sympathise with the resistant figure to the oppression and tyranny of the powerful. When in reality, the majority of those in positions of power are far more publicly fallible than the average citizen. It's quite depressing really, to see these ideas of the corruption of power descend into comical farce.

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#14

Posted 22 June 2013 - 09:47 PM

QUOTE (Niko Vercetti 112 @ Saturday, Jun 22 2013, 15:07)
Before I start, I'm not one of these "Conspiracy Theoriests are paradnoid idiots" type people, I'm actually an avid believer, I just fail to see how people think the Illuminati could even feasibly exist.
To think-
If there was an all knowing, all powerful organisation running the entire world how could they even operate without someone spilling the beans?
Why wouldn't any of the "puppet" world leaders just rebel against them? They would have enough power to do so.
What's the point in staging wars? For their own entertainment? Dream on...
If they wanted to keep themselves secret why the hell would they supposedly implant their symbol in millions of pop-culture peices from music videos to sport matches?

The entire concept of the Illuminati still existing in this day and age is so stupid it makes me laugh my ass off, in particular when millions of younger people are starting to believe it.

That's what they want you to think!

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#15

Posted 22 June 2013 - 09:48 PM

Its dumb. What's even dumber is actually thinking that sh*tty rappers has a part of it.

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#16

Posted 23 June 2013 - 01:54 AM

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Sunday, Jun 23 2013, 00:51)
No, what I'm saying is that the "illuminati" is in effect the same entity as any target onto which to apportion blame in a conspiracy theory. A fictional entity, somewhere between somewhat based on and and extremely loosely based on history or current affairs, but exaggerated, misrepresented or just good old fashioned invented to serve as a scapegoat for a small segment of the population who though wilful ignorance, gullibility, through manifestation of undiagnosed mental illness or scientific phenomena such as the DunningKruger effect, choose to deflect their own feelings of paranoia, social or societal inferiority or other negative characteristic on to an unseen, invisible and intangible adversary to try and subconsciously absolve themselves of any responsibility for their negativities.

This is the best explanation for conspiracy theorists that I have ever seen, It is absolutely spot on.

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#17

Posted 23 June 2013 - 03:38 AM

QUOTE (Mr.Mister @ Saturday, Jun 22 2013, 15:16)
Modern Illuminati is ridiculous. You really think political figures like to work with each other? They are all in it for personal gain and wont hesitate to smear others.

Also, believing in it is giving away your power. You blame the problems of the world on a shadowy group. We speak in generalities, but live in specifics.

True, but some do have the upper hand in the seperate groups here in America. Take Grover Norquist for example, he is considered to be the puppet master by many in the Republican party. He has the power and the money needed to be in the position he is in. I think people see politicians who work together as being "unified" when really it's just 'I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine' or 'I'll save your butt if you save mine' should the need arise.

I think some people just confuse The Illuminati/Shadow Government with the Continuity of Operations Plan which has become shadey since Bush denied acces to it "On July 18, 2007, Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-OR), a member of the U.S. House Committee on Homeland Security, requested the classified and more detailed version of the government's continuity of government plan in a letter signed by him and the chairperson of the House Homeland Committee, which is supposed to have access to confidential government information. The president refused to provide the information, to the surprise of the congressional committee."

For the most part every politician, corporation, government, nation, ect has his/her/their own agenda. If it lines up with others then they take advantage of it. Or if they can make the laws line up better with their agenda to make more profits then I can see why people want to make the connection to an idea such as the Illuminati, but it's just simply the fact that [in America] politicians and corporations are a little too close for some people's comfort.

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#18

Posted 23 June 2013 - 04:39 AM

Why not?
When rich people (or any class for that matter) get together with nothing else to do. Or to pass the time, anything can happen.
That someone says it IS, and someone else cries, "It isn't". Who on the outside is really to know?
People like Our Sheldon are always in the 'know' and are quite happy to tell us so. Does that make it true?
How does he actually know? Is he and his cronies part of it?
Who should really care?

Anybody heard of the "Hell Fire Club"?
They don't exist either... (?)

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#19

Posted 23 June 2013 - 06:01 AM

I don't believe in the Illuminati, but I believe in special interest groups which have had the ears of congresspeople for too damn long.

sivispacem
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#20

Posted 23 June 2013 - 07:08 AM

QUOTE (whatsstrength @ Sunday, Jun 23 2013, 07:01)
I don't believe in the Illuminati, but I believe in special interest groups which have had the ears of congresspeople for too damn long.

Welcome to the US political system. I've said it before, I'll say it again, the only reason the US has such an issue with interest-group lobbying is because no-one holds the balance of power between the legislature, executive and judiciary. Because no one part of the political system possesses the power to conduct policy without the others, it ends up all being left down to the only people who can move freely between the three arms of the US political system- the lobbyists.

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#21

Posted 23 June 2013 - 09:58 AM

In my opinion just choose believe it or not, depended of our different religion icon14.gif

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#22

Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:24 AM

It's quite funny to see Americans talking about Illuminati.

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#23

Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:32 AM

QUOTE (Elesdee95 @ Monday, Jun 24 2013, 19:24)
It's quite funny to see Americans talking about Illuminati.

Care to elaborate oh wise one?

Lexty.
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#24

Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:08 AM

QUOTE
Everyone wants someone to blame for their mis-fortunes.


Just like the government blamed al-qaeda for the 9/11 attacks?

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#25

Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:17 AM

QUOTE (Coat. @ Monday, Jun 24 2013, 09:08)
QUOTE
Everyone wants someone to blame for their mis-fortunes.


Just like the government blamed al-qaeda for the 9/11 attacks?

Why not expand on this? It seems like an important thing to expand on being so controversial seeing as strategic discourse of the past decade has been to neutralize transnational jihadist actors and to dismantle alongside with functional governments takfiri non-state actors. You make it sound like its stupid to believe that al-qaeda are to be blamed for 9/11.

sivispacem
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#26

Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:26 AM

QUOTE (Brad @ Monday, Jun 24 2013, 10:17)
QUOTE (Coat. @ Monday, Jun 24 2013, 09:08)
QUOTE
Everyone wants someone to blame for their mis-fortunes.


Just like the government blamed al-qaeda for the 9/11 attacks?

Why not expand on this? It seems like an important thing to expand on being so controversial seeing as strategic discourse of the past decade has been to neutralize transnational jihadist actors and to dismantle alongside with functional governments takfiri non-state actors. You make it sound like its stupid to believe that al-qaeda are to be blamed for 9/11.

I think he didn't expand on it because he knows it's an idiotic, untenable argument and he just wants to be contrary to seem edgy and cool.

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#27

Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:28 AM

QUOTE (Brad @ Monday, Jun 24 2013, 09:17)
You make it sound like its stupid to believe that al-qaeda are to be blamed for 9/11.

Bush's CIA trained, equipped, and financed them in the early days.
So it's Bush's fault... sneaky2.gif
And with all the catastrophic happenings that day, it isn't too far to believe that the CIA wasn't behind it. After all, they were going out of business with no work to do and needed some positive working press coverage.

That's all been said before. Repeat it enough and people will believe it.
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#28

Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:31 AM

Oh, this topic again. Most people who believe in the Illuminati are schizophrenic or poor. It's a cover up for envy. Why is this person rich and I'm not? Oh, it's must be because there's a secret agenda . A plot against me and the real believers who sit at home all day looking through black and white music videos. Equally stupid people get together and they start looking up 9/11, Lil Wayne's top 5, and why the Heat won and boom...all Illuminati. They will find something. Don't play Scrabble with these people. They'll tell you to cover one eye and squint real hard to see the devil in Kanye's music video.
At the end of the day, it's like how religion got started. People make sh*t up to explain things they can't explain with sense and logic.

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#29

Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:32 AM

QUOTE (lil weasel @ Monday, Jun 24 2013, 09:28)
QUOTE (Brad @ Monday, Jun 24 2013, 09:17)
You make it sound like its stupid to believe that al-qaeda are to be blamed for 9/11.

That's all been said before. Repeat it enough and people will believe it.
monocle.gif

I'm sure that is the basis to which you make most of your posts.

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#30

Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:54 AM

QUOTE (lil weasel @ Monday, Jun 24 2013, 10:28)
Bush's CIA trained, equipped, and financed them in the early days.
So it's Bush's fault... sneaky2.gif
And with all the catastrophic happenings that day, it isn't too far to believe that the CIA wasn't behind it. After all, they were going out of business with no work to do and needed some positive working press coverage.

I think there's a bit of historic revisionism going on here. The CIA funded the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, which isn't the same thing as either the Taliban, or, as you insinuate, al-Qaeda. Bin Laden fought with the Mujahideen but there was no transfer of matriel from Afghanistan to al-Qaeda at the culmination of the Soviet occupation. Statistically, AQ is a North African and Middle Eastern rather than a South Asian entity, was funded and financed by Gulf state governments and Bin Laden's personal fortune, and doesn't really owe a great deal to any operational involvement in Afghanistan. Remember, the Northern Alliance were also a product of clandestine CIA support, so this idea that the US wilfully created the Taliban, much less al-Qaeda, is utterly false.




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