Quantcast

Jump to content

» «
Photo

Data Surveillance

143 replies to this topic
Melchior
  • Melchior

    Anti-Complacency League, Baby!

  • Andolini Mafia Family
  • Joined: 16 May 2009
  • United-Nations

#121

Posted 27 June 2013 - 10:44 AM

Yeah like these drills are in case Mexico attacks. They're obviously for dealing with American citizens. Violent suppression is already used against decidedly non-violent protests, if protests start getting out of hand they'd obviously want a police force that is trained to actually conduct operations in an urban environment. You know, shooting people rather than just smacking them with batons and punching them in the face.

sivispacem
  • sivispacem

    Hellhound Warpig

  • Moderator
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2011
  • United-Kingdom

#122

Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:16 PM

I wrote out a sizeable post and lost it due to my phone having a paddy.

GMS, it strikes me that your theory is based on fallacious circular reasoning. The presence of urban warfare exercises is evidence of a conspiracy for the introduction of martial law; how do we know that this conspiracy exists? The presence of urban warfare drills. Im sure you can see the flaw in this logic. As for the question of them being a recent phenomenon, I suppose it depends on your definition of recent. There's certainly been an increase in their use, but given that UO is an intrinsic part of counter-insurgency warfare I don't find that suspicious. They've taken place on a limited scale since the Second World War. Which brings me onto the next issue-economies of scale. To properly pacify an urban insurgency you need a high ratio of combatants to civilians. By my reckoning, a million men would be enough for some semblance of control over the US urban population centres. So how come we're seeing drills involving maybe 5,000 special forces operatives? Where are the other 995,000 people who need training in UO?

For your own sake, you really should consider these kinds of thing before you propose illogical and absurd things. Develop your argument before you make your allegations rather than making it up as you go along.

lil weasel
  • lil weasel

    Shoot Looters, Hang Pirates!

  • Members
  • Joined: 25 Dec 2006

#123

Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:17 PM

QUOTE (Published: 07/16/2012 at 12:45 PM by Andrea Shea King)
White House Executive Order 13618, signed July 6, 2012, and titled “Assignment of National Security and Emergency Preparedness Communications Functions,” could be used to prevent communication between U.S. citizens, allege some concerned, thus allowing the president to eliminate any and all opposition to his plans. You decide.[…]

Feds keeping close tabs on us, says NSA whistleblower
“They’re pulling together all the data about virtually every U.S. citizen in the country … and assembling that information,” said NSA whistleblower William Binney
It’s a *fact* that people in government are either just doing their job to get a paycheck or are involved in increasing their personal power. If passive cooperation pushes that power base forward it doesn’t mean a cabal with a ‘super-secret’ agenda formed by a conspiracy.
No one in elected Government wants to be voted out by a simple single bullet instead of many ballots (often controlled by a Party Machine.)

Threats to the Government? The Government employee will determine what the threat is. With the blanket approval of the Appointed Leaders someone else will be instructed to take action to ‘defuse’ the situation.
Anybody who has been in a ‘chain of command’ should certainly know how this goes up to the top decision maker and back down to the ‘troops’. It can often end up totally different from source to execution (pun intended).

The idea of “I’ve never done anything wrong, I have nothing to worry about!”
You are wrong. You did something wrong when a Government Employee says you did. It then becomes your right to defend yourself. There is no piece of paper that protects your rights. It is totally the business of Government Employees to see you convicted. Which is of course nearly impossible for the Government Employee(s) to do considering how they are watched every minute by an assigned member of Congress, and are totally incapable of deigning you council, access to secret evidence, access to secret charges. Trials can’t be held in secrecy… everyone knows that. icon14.gif

Read more

sivispacem
  • sivispacem

    Hellhound Warpig

  • Moderator
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2011
  • United-Kingdom

#124

Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:49 PM

Nice rant. Pity you appear to have ignored the phrase "allege some concerned" in your quote. So, basically, what you are saying is that some people have alleged this, and that these people are correct. Who are these people? Exactly what have they said and what qualifucstion do they have to say it?

I really do detest sloppy reporting, but this a step beyond that. It's blatant obfuscation for no clear purpose other than to level allegations without allowing observers to properly analyse the merits of these comments. Do you honestly encourage people to digest this kind of sputum?

Also, if your statements about government employees are in fact factual, then surely there must be some kind of evidence to support your claim?

Melchior
  • Melchior

    Anti-Complacency League, Baby!

  • Andolini Mafia Family
  • Joined: 16 May 2009
  • United-Nations

#125

Posted 27 June 2013 - 01:19 PM

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Thursday, Jun 27 2013, 22:16)
I wrote out a sizeable post and lost it due to my phone having a paddy.

GMS, it strikes me that your theory is based on fallacious circular reasoning. The presence of urban warfare exercises is evidence of a conspiracy for the introduction of martial law; how do we know that this conspiracy exists? The presence of urban warfare drills. Im sure you can see the flaw in this logic. As for the question of them being a recent phenomenon, I suppose it depends on your definition of recent. There's certainly been an increase in their use, but given that UO is an intrinsic part of counter-insurgency warfare I don't find that suspicious. They've taken place on a limited scale since the Second World War. Which brings me onto the next issue-economies of scale. To properly pacify an urban insurgency you need a high ratio of combatants to civilians. By my reckoning, a million men would be enough for some semblance of control over the US urban population centres. So how come we're seeing drills involving maybe 5,000 special forces operatives? Where are the other 995,000 people who need training in UO?

For your own sake, you really should consider these kinds of thing before you propose illogical and absurd things. Develop your argument before you make your allegations rather than making it up as you go along.

Obviously the idea that the drills are some preparation for a fascist police state is total bunk, but the idea that the drills are preparing police and military for fighting against US citizens is not without merit.

sivispacem
  • sivispacem

    Hellhound Warpig

  • Moderator
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2011
  • United-Kingdom

#126

Posted 27 June 2013 - 01:33 PM

QUOTE (Melchior @ Thursday, Jun 27 2013, 14:19)
QUOTE (sivispacem @ Thursday, Jun 27 2013, 22:16)
I wrote out a sizeable post and lost it due to my phone having a paddy.

GMS, it strikes me that your theory is based on fallacious circular reasoning.  The presence of urban warfare exercises is evidence of a conspiracy for the introduction of martial law; how do we know that this conspiracy exists?  The presence of urban warfare drills. Im sure you can see the flaw in this logic. As for the question of them being a recent phenomenon, I suppose it depends on your definition of recent. There's certainly been an increase in their use, but given that UO is an intrinsic part of counter-insurgency warfare I don't find that suspicious. They've taken place on a limited scale since the Second World War. Which brings me onto the next issue-economies of scale. To properly pacify an urban insurgency you need a high ratio of combatants to civilians.  By my reckoning, a million men would be enough for some semblance of control over the US urban population centres. So how come we're seeing drills involving maybe 5,000 special forces operatives? Where are the other 995,000 people who need training in UO?

For your own sake, you really should consider these kinds of thing before you propose illogical and absurd things. Develop your argument before you make your allegations rather than making it up as you go along.

Obviously the idea that the drills are some preparation for a fascist police state is total bunk, but the idea that the drills are preparing police and military for fighting against US citizens is not without merit.

It is without merit, based purely on the principle that tactical and operational training doesn't discern between identify, only methodology. UO training is equally applicable in Liberia and Los Angeles, therefore the suggestion that the tactical or operational training is for any particular theatre rather than for a particular kind of warfare is questionable. What merit is there in the assertion that this training is particularly applicable towards US citizens anyway.

Melchior
  • Melchior

    Anti-Complacency League, Baby!

  • Andolini Mafia Family
  • Joined: 16 May 2009
  • United-Nations

#127

Posted 27 June 2013 - 02:21 PM

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Thursday, Jun 27 2013, 23:33)
QUOTE (Melchior @ Thursday, Jun 27 2013, 14:19)
QUOTE (sivispacem @ Thursday, Jun 27 2013, 22:16)
I wrote out a sizeable post and lost it due to my phone having a paddy.

GMS, it strikes me that your theory is based on fallacious circular reasoning.  The presence of urban warfare exercises is evidence of a conspiracy for the introduction of martial law; how do we know that this conspiracy exists?  The presence of urban warfare drills. Im sure you can see the flaw in this logic. As for the question of them being a recent phenomenon, I suppose it depends on your definition of recent. There's certainly been an increase in their use, but given that UO is an intrinsic part of counter-insurgency warfare I don't find that suspicious. They've taken place on a limited scale since the Second World War. Which brings me onto the next issue-economies of scale. To properly pacify an urban insurgency you need a high ratio of combatants to civilians.  By my reckoning, a million men would be enough for some semblance of control over the US urban population centres. So how come we're seeing drills involving maybe 5,000 special forces operatives? Where are the other 995,000 people who need training in UO?

For your own sake, you really should consider these kinds of thing before you propose illogical and absurd things. Develop your argument before you make your allegations rather than making it up as you go along.

Obviously the idea that the drills are some preparation for a fascist police state is total bunk, but the idea that the drills are preparing police and military for fighting against US citizens is not without merit.

It is without merit, based purely on the principle that tactical and operational training doesn't discern between identify, only methodology. UO training is equally applicable in Liberia and Los Angeles, therefore the suggestion that the tactical or operational training is for any particular theatre rather than for a particular kind of warfare is questionable. What merit is there in the assertion that this training is particularly applicable towards US citizens anyway.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we discussing the training of police officers and the national guard, not the US armed forces?

The Yokel
  • The Yokel

    Boob groper

  • The Yardies
  • Joined: 30 Mar 2007
  • Jamaica

#128

Posted 27 June 2013 - 03:26 PM

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Thursday, Jun 27 2013, 14:33)
It is without merit

No it isn't. Remember this: http://www.guardian....hocks-nsa-prism

Who do you think they will use to suppress the angry population if it comes to that?

Your idea of evidence seems to be only a direct quote from the government officials. For a smart guy you can be pretty oblivious sometimes. Or maybe you're just incredibly naive and optimistic.

Melchior
  • Melchior

    Anti-Complacency League, Baby!

  • Andolini Mafia Family
  • Joined: 16 May 2009
  • United-Nations

#129

Posted 27 June 2013 - 03:42 PM

I very much doubt the government has a contingency plan for dealing with the population itself. More likely, there are steps being put in place to deal with small segments of the population who might turn violent. I don't know how much longer those Occupy Wall Street kids are going to get the crap beaten out of them by cops, and the far-right are literally threatening to overthrow what they believe to be an evil socialist dictatorship that hates the white man and his guns.

sivispacem
  • sivispacem

    Hellhound Warpig

  • Moderator
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2011
  • United-Kingdom

#130

Posted 27 June 2013 - 04:05 PM

QUOTE (GTAvanja @ Thursday, Jun 27 2013, 16:26)
QUOTE (sivispacem @ Thursday, Jun 27 2013, 14:33)
It is without merit

No it isn't. Remember this: http://www.guardian....hocks-nsa-prism

Who do you think they will use to suppress the angry population if it comes to that?

Your idea of evidence seems to be only a direct quote from the government officials. For a smart guy you can be pretty oblivious sometimes. Or maybe you're just incredibly naive and optimistic.

The activities surrounding PRISM are a demonstration of just how little need there ever would be for urban military pacification of the US population. For a good 72 hours the only thing in the US media was the accusation that the NSA was systematically and purposefully violating at least two, possibly three constitutional amendments in respect to everyone in the entire country, and precisely naff all actually happened. Now that the dust has begun to settle and many of those assumptions have been refuted, do you really think the issue is important enough to most citizens to demand the large scale deployment of armed forces? Of course not.

For the record, I don't base my theses on hyperbole, supposition and hearsay. Getting bogged down in speculative "what-ifs" is what conspiracy theorists do. Any argument dependent on another unproven; nay, completely undemonstrated thesis is likely to be questionable at best. I don't think it's naive to base views on rational assessment of facts instead of preconceived biases, do you?

baguvix_wanrltw
  • baguvix_wanrltw

    Cynical, yeah. Bitter, probably.

  • Members
  • Joined: 05 Apr 2012

#131

Posted 27 June 2013 - 06:33 PM

Hah so this thread is still going eh. Good. The weekend is coming up. Prepare for my longest post ever (or none at all, we'll see).

On topic: so where were we... oh yeah. Regarding spying: USA = bad, UK = worse. Who'd a thunk it? And of course all the other countries are pissed that they look stupid now and are planning to invest hundreds of millions into their own anti-freedom programs. Again showing the world the way into the future, thank god.

Then a smear campaign against Snowden and Greenwald. Again, whoa, how entirely unexpected!!!

Snowden... dead or perhaps in Hong Kong, Mainland China, Russia, Ecuador, Venezuela or Iceland. Nobody suspects he's actually my boyfriend and we're making out right now ph34r.gif


Oh, and let me just leave this here. Notice what it says right above PRISM. Entirely NOT unexpected either.

user posted image

Also, SOCMINT - "[Social media] almost acts like CCTV on the ground for us" - yet another shocker.

sivispacem
  • sivispacem

    Hellhound Warpig

  • Moderator
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2011
  • United-Kingdom

#132

Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:12 PM

QUOTE (baguvix_wanrltw @ Thursday, Jun 27 2013, 19:33)
UK = worse.

How, out of interest? In terms of oversight we're leagues ahead of the US. I mean, we actually have a public oversight framework and a degree of public accountability for out intelligence agencies. Citizens can actual question the application of intelligence through the IPT. With a whole one percent rate of complaints being upheld, no less!

QUOTE (baguvix_wanrltw @ Thursday, Jun 27 2013, 19:33)
Also, SOCMINT - "[Social media] almost acts like CCTV on the ground for us" - yet another shocker.

OSINT is OSINT, and unlike various subdivisions of SIGINT there isn't really a lot of point differentiating between different kinds. An open source is an open source. The simple fact of the matter is that most people put their crown jewels in plain sight. Anyone reasonably versed on counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency strategy knows the application of human terrain analysis is vital for effective operations. I'd be concerned if the intelligence agencies weren't using open-source intelligence...

unc13bud
  • unc13bud

    Die Hoodrat DIE!!!

  • Members
  • Joined: 05 Dec 2010

#133

Posted 30 June 2013 - 12:07 AM

america is a country COMPLETELY built on racism and violence.
http://www.amazon.co...g/dp/0743296281

sivispacem
  • sivispacem

    Hellhound Warpig

  • Moderator
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2011
  • United-Kingdom

#134

Posted 30 June 2013 - 07:22 AM

QUOTE (unc13bud @ Sunday, Jun 30 2013, 01:07)
america is a country COMPLETELY built on racism and violence.

The irony being that this remark is extremely bigoted and incredibly derogatory.

A loaded rifle
  • A loaded rifle

    Ghetto Star

  • BUSTED!
  • Joined: 08 Jun 2011

#135

Posted 30 June 2013 - 08:35 AM

Well, time to look up pictures of fat c*cks so the bastards looking at my data will get a nice little suprise. mwahaha.

This is the 21st century revolution!

sivispacem
  • sivispacem

    Hellhound Warpig

  • Moderator
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2011
  • United-Kingdom

#136

Posted 30 June 2013 - 09:11 AM

QUOTE (A loaded rifle @ Sunday, Jun 30 2013, 09:35)
Well, time to look up pictures of fat c*cks so the bastards looking at my data will get a nice little suprise. mwahaha.

I doubt you've ever written anything interesting enough to warrant a human looking at it.

A loaded rifle
  • A loaded rifle

    Ghetto Star

  • BUSTED!
  • Joined: 08 Jun 2011

#137

Posted 30 June 2013 - 09:34 AM

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Sunday, Jun 30 2013, 09:11)
QUOTE (A loaded rifle @ Sunday, Jun 30 2013, 09:35)
Well, time to look up pictures of fat c*cks so the bastards looking at my data will get a nice little suprise. mwahaha.

I doubt you've ever written anything interesting enough to warrant a human looking at it.

Well that's very respectful of you, but actually I would assume they would be very interested in the "right-wing anarchist" sites I visit on a daily basis, and the letters I send the president regarding many of his policies, and the petitions I sign to impeach, and deport certain people who abuse their powers.

Nipperkins
  • Nipperkins

    I think it's beautiful that you are 256 colors too.

  • Zaibatsu
  • Joined: 04 Mar 2013
  • Somalia

#138

Posted 30 June 2013 - 09:46 AM

This one is for Sivis. while you may not think this is bad now, just think if a Richard Nixon or Warren G Harding get their grubby little hands on this kind of data. Do you think they would use it for benevolent purposes?

Melchior
  • Melchior

    Anti-Complacency League, Baby!

  • Andolini Mafia Family
  • Joined: 16 May 2009
  • United-Nations

#139

Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:49 AM

QUOTE (A loaded rifle @ Sunday, Jun 30 2013, 19:34)
I would assume they would be very interested in the "right-wing anarchist" sites I visit

Oxymoron, no?

Nipperkins
  • Nipperkins

    I think it's beautiful that you are 256 colors too.

  • Zaibatsu
  • Joined: 04 Mar 2013
  • Somalia

#140

Posted 30 June 2013 - 10:52 AM

QUOTE (Melchior @ Sunday, Jun 30 2013, 10:49)
QUOTE (A loaded rifle @ Sunday, Jun 30 2013, 19:34)
I would assume they would be very interested in the "right-wing anarchist" sites I visit

Oxymoron, no?

It's probably some interpretation of Objectivism. Although, judging by his posts in the eight year sentence thread, it could be anything.

sivispacem
  • sivispacem

    Hellhound Warpig

  • Moderator
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2011
  • United-Kingdom

#141

Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:05 AM

QUOTE (A loaded rifle @ Sunday, Jun 30 2013, 10:34)
Well that's very respectful of you, but actually I would assume they would be very interested in the "right-wing anarchist" sites I visit on a daily basis, and the letters I send the president regarding many of his policies, and the petitions I sign to impeach, and deport certain people who abuse their powers.

I'm pretty sure that the government would be capable of discerning between some angsty fifteen-year-old and someone who poses a genuine potential threat to the safety and security of the United States without having to manually trawl anything.

@Nipperkins- there's certainly potential for abuse of capabilities like these, yes.

Tyler
  • Tyler

    time is a flat circle

  • Moderator
  • Joined: 22 Mar 2009
  • Unknown

#142

Posted 01 July 2013 - 07:36 AM

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Monday, Jul 1 2013, 01:05)
I'm pretty sure that the government would be capable of discerning between some angsty fifteen-year-old and someone who poses a genuine potential threat to the safety and security of the United States without having to manually trawl anything.

I know where you're coming from but isn't being an angsty fifteen year-old where a lot of school shootings or general "surprising" instances of violence in our heartland, begin? I'm not saying these things are necessarily dangerous to the security of the US, but they are undoubtedly something we're trying to stop with this surveillance, otherwise that Justin Carter kid wouldn't have been arrested on a call in from some girl in Canada. My point is, what do we do when the inevitably increasing state of our security intersects with cases of angsty teenhood and how does one even begin to judge the intent of people based extremely grey area of jokes on the internet?

lil weasel
  • lil weasel

    Shoot Looters, Hang Pirates!

  • Members
  • Joined: 25 Dec 2006

#143

Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:36 AM

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Monday, Jul 1 2013, 07:05)
I'm pretty sure that the government would be capable of discerning between some angsty fifteen-year-old and someone who poses a genuine potential threat to the safety and security of the United States without having to manually trawl anything.
@Nipperkins- there's certainly potential for abuse of capabilities like these, yes.
Seems the Need for National Security has already been activated with the “Report It’ to Home Land Security…Does the Government really care who you are or what the age is, as long as the public is kept safe? Regarding the Teen imprisoned for 8 years… topic.
QUOTE (Tyler @ Monday, Jul 1 2013, 07:36)
[W]hat do we do when the inevitably increasing state of our security intersects with cases of angsty teenhood and how does one even begin to judge the intent of people based extremely grey area of jokes on the internet?
You go to jail and like it. All for the Public's safety. I’m quite sure the individuals who make up the various Government Established Statutory Thought Police Organizations will protect us. Any who want to offer a different opinion (out loud and especially in print) will get a place on organizations list.

So with the Government(s) collecting information, which I believe they have been doing since Hoover, is nothing new. It's just that with the current technology the net and sweeps can be widened. GPS locations in mobile phones mandated by the Government to protect the individual in emergencies, soon to be required in vehicles all for the public good.
"1984" has arrived, and the Political Correctness has gotting out of hand.
It's OK for the 'State' to photographic you, but you are arrested for photographing/recording Government Workers in public.
It's OK for the 'State' to record conversations, but you can be arrested for doing the same if you don't tell the person being recorded...

We will all be much safer with the new gun laws, too.

sivispacem
  • sivispacem

    Hellhound Warpig

  • Moderator
  • Joined: 14 Feb 2011
  • United-Kingdom

#144

Posted 01 July 2013 - 10:47 AM

QUOTE (lil weasel @ Monday, Jul 1 2013, 11:36)
Regarding the Teen imprisoned for 8 years… topic.

I've stayed out of that topic for the most part because the headline is such utter bullsh*t it's an embarrassment. Horrendously naive to suggest that the individual in question even has a legal case to answer, much less is actually serving a prison sentence like the title suggests. Sloppy reporting by the OP there.

The rest of your post-I have pretty much nothing to say in respect to it that wouldn't be repeating myself ad nauseum. Mostly because it seems to comprise of you, repeating yourself, ad nauseum.




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users