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Triple Vacuum Seal
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#61

Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:57 AM

QUOTE (baguvix_wanrltw @ Sunday, Jun 9 2013, 19:41)
QUOTE (canttakemyid @ Monday, Jun 10 2013, 00:26)
I just hope they go easy on him.  I really hope he finds asylum.  The only thing that helps me sleep at night is the idea that many people in the upper echelon of the CIA have strong military values like Mr. Snowden.  So hopefully, they won't go full-blown Orwell on us.

Amen to that. But why do you call them "military values"? That's one of the last words that would have come to my mind in this context. But I assume you're more referring to military ideals than.. current engagements.

Whether they abide by them or not, many civil service values are instilled in military personnel. At the end of the day though, the main value is following orders.

baguvix_wanrltw
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#62

Posted 10 June 2013 - 01:19 AM Edited by baguvix_wanrltw, 10 June 2013 - 02:16 AM.

Btw not to go off topic or anything but a few more things might be worthy of mention.

First off Anonymous started leaking NSA docs too a few days ago.

And european countries are (acting) pissed at this, and rightly so. Among others ze Germans. And we all know what happens when ze Germans get pissed!

http://gigaom.com/20...ng-allegations/
http://www.dailydot....nce-europe-law/

Oh yeah, and PRISM got a wiki page now. http://en.wikipedia....llance_program)


QUOTE (meta187 @ Sunday, Jun 9 2013, 08:39)
QUOTE
The secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (Fisa) granted the order to the FBI on April 25 , giving the government unlimited authority to obtain the data for a specified three-month period ending on July 19 .


I can certainly see the ramifications of this sort of thing being abused in broader application but with such a specified parameter of dates I'm more concerned about what possibly went down 3 months prior to July 19th that's got them so worried.

I think they just generally wanted to tap in there and they can only get that access for 3 months under whatever law allows them to do so. They have to renew it again after July 19 and that was probably just a renewal as well, or at least that's what I think, the article doesn't seem to contradict that though so I'd apply Occam's razor here.

Still, that's just the Verizon metadata thing which seems minuscule in comparison to PRISM, Boundless Informant etc.

http://en.wikipedia....dless_Informant

http://www.guardian....-lawmakers-live

QUOTE
Booz Allen can confirm that Edward Snowden, 29, has been an employee of our firm for less than 3 months, assigned to a team in Hawaii. News reports that this individual has claimed to have leaked classified information are shocking, and if accurate, this action represents a grave violation of the code of conduct and core values of our firm. We will work closely with our clients and authorities in their investigation of this matter.

QUOTE
Senator Rand Paul said he would try to challenge the NSA surveillance programs in court and Senator Mark Udall called for 'reopening' the Patriot Act to remove the legal foundation for broad surveillance sweeps.


They better parody this in V.

QUOTE
Edward Snowden has been charged with no crime ... but there is already a White House petition to pardon him. The petition, which has only 70 (make that 4000) signatures so far, declares:

"Edward Snowden is a national hero and should be immediately issued a a full, free, and absolute pardon for any crimes he has committed or may have committed related to blowing the whistle on secret NSA surveillance programs."

White House petitions, hosted on the official government web site, are billed as a way of injecting "your voice in government." Petitions that get 100,000 signatures are meant to earn a reply from the White House.

https://petitions.wh...nowden/Dp03vGYD

And btw:
QUOTE (Glenn Greenwald)
Any Twitter or Facebook accounts purporting to be Edward Snowden are fake.


QUOTE
Trevor Timm of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, an Internet rights group, tweets about Daniel Ellsberg, who as a 40-year-old defense researcher gave the documents to the New York Times that became known as the Pentagon Papers.

"I was just with Dan Ellsberg as he learned out about Edward Snowden. He called Snowden a hero, said he's been waiting for him for 40 years."


QUOTE
Immi, the Iceland-based International Modern Media Institute, which drafted Iceland's press protections resolution, tweets support for the whistleblower:

"IMMI will try to assist Edward Snowden in his request for asylum to the best of our ability. Lots of unclear variables still."


http://www.guardian....ard-snowden-why

Irviding
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#63

Posted 10 June 2013 - 03:32 AM

You sure the European countries are pissed? The UK has been involved with PRISM since 2010. http://www.guardian....gence-nsa-prism

agent17
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#64

Posted 10 June 2013 - 04:07 AM

It's time we've asked ourselves how much our privacy is worth.

sivispacem
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#65

Posted 10 June 2013 - 08:24 AM

QUOTE (agent17 @ Monday, Jun 10 2013, 05:07)
It's time we've asked ourselves how much our privacy is worth.

There does indeed need to be a public debate on the utilisation of large-scale surveillance, and this needs to engage all the relevant stakeholders. It's all well and good people pointing the finger at the intelligence community for their use of this big data collection, collation and analysis policy and personally speaking, given what has come to the forefront of this discussion, I question the extent to which this activity is actually providing a reasonable trade-off between privacy and security. But I don't think it's right to jump the gun in accusing the NSA of abusing the privacy rights of individuals without a great deal more clarity on exactly what this has entailed and whether any of this activity has been outside the bounds of legal activity. The most telling thing about the leaks so far is just how opaque the language and content of even apparent screenshots are- there's not even any real content in the whistle blower interview-just a set of allegations that lack technical clarity. I'm very interested to see what the technical experts have said and are going to say about these revelations.

baguvix_wanrltw
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#66

Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:57 PM Edited by baguvix_wanrltw, 10 June 2013 - 01:30 PM.

Oh come on sivi, why are you always looking for some special secret sauce? They have none (well, they might, but we don't know about it obviously) and they need none. They have direct illegal server access, court mandated metadata access, and they use standard equipment (like you linked in the other thread) to get the rest from traffic. And since basically all telephone stuff runs over the Internet too nowadays, at least on the net level, they sweep that up as well.

They spy on US citizens => illegal. They spy on allies => morally very questionable. They lied on purpose every time they were asked about those programs. No need for further justification.

And btw:

http://en.wikipedia..../Edward_Snowden
QUOTE
On June 10, The Times reported that a senior Hong Kong politician advised Snowden to leave the territory or face extradition to United States.

http://www.thetimes....icle3787261.ece

China, time to nut up or shut up. Give this guy asylum, save him from the evil oppressive antidemocratic anti-freedom regime. This has a f*cking bow on it and he's already knocking at your door. f*ck the media spin, just save the life.

Realistically though: thank you for everything you've done for the world Edward. May they be humane enough to give you a quick death.

f*cking shameful and disgusting to get murdered by the f*cking "people" who perverted the ideals the founding fathers (and soon, you) fought and died for. Every real american should be outraged, whether they consider themselves patriots or not.


Irviding: I never said "all european countries", see the links below for more info. And the UK and the US have always (hehe) been BFFs.


BEWARE, SATIRE! An interesting experiment: what if we talked about the USA the way we talk about anyone BUT the USA?
http://www.globalpos...hey-cover-world
QUOTE
Inside the United States
GlobalPost goes inside the United States to uncover the regime’s dramatic descent into authoritarian rule and how the opposition plans to fight back.

Human rights activists say revelations that the US regime has expanded its domestic surveillance program to private phone carriers is more evidence of the North American country’s pivot toward authoritarianism.

“The US leadership in Washington continues to erode basic human rights,” said one activist, who asked to remain anonymous, fearing that speaking out publicly could endanger his organization. “If the US government is unwilling to change course, it’s time the international community considered economic sanctions.”

sivispacem
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#67

Posted 10 June 2013 - 01:36 PM

I understand your point but I'm not even remotely convinced what they're doing is actually illegal. Highly questionable sure, but as long as their direct access to data is only limited to what the various companies involved are storing in line with their highly questionable terms of service then they aren't violations the letter of the law.The spirit sure, but not the letter. Also, it strikes me quite how little we actually know about the direct operation of Prism. We don't know whether this is unfiltered, direct access to all content in real time or whether it's some kind of cloud-based drop box for interaction between private companies and the security services. We don't know what the entire process entails or the scope of collaboration; any estimate is pure assumption at thus point. Whilst our whistle-blower's rhetoric is strong, the direct implications are unclear to anyone who hasn't already made their mind up and are thus basing their interpretation on pre-conceived biases. Also, if they have direct access that permits the monitoring, recording and decryption of all communication content without the involvement of external prividers, as you insinuate now and have claimed earlier, how come the direct access to data stored by the likes of Google and Microsoft so important? If they wanted to keep it quiet why involve external parties at all?

I'm not defending the employment of large scale surveillance, just questioning whether we have enough actual evidence to make reasonable judgements regarding the scale, scope and capability of these systems. I'm also trying to draw attention to the fact that everything that's been discussed in any depth (that excludes the whole "everything, everywhere" idea which still doesn't have any real empirical backing) is effectively enabled-nay, actually operated-by the companies we entrust with our private data under the deluded, misguided and false pretence that they have anything even vaguely resembling a duty to protect it. It isn't the intelligence framework that is rotten, but the entire political/economic/social triad in which it operates.

GrandMaster Smith
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#68

Posted 11 June 2013 - 01:51 AM

"I understand your point but I'm not even remotely convinced what they're doing is actually illegal."

I've seen this argument made several times, mainly only by you but just because something's legal in no ways makes it right... A tyrannical government can put in place laws that 'okay' tyrannical acts, just because it's 'legal' by no means justifies these things.



I don't care if the government put into place laws that allows them to spy on me, it's still wrong on so many levels. Like this is the kind of sh*t conspiracy theorist would've gotten laughed at for bringing up two years ago, and now it's a reality and the one's who would've been laughing at the theorists are now trying to find ways to justify it..

Irviding
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#69

Posted 11 June 2013 - 02:19 AM

I just don't get how this is tyranny... I really don't. And I join sivis in arguing that this is not illegal by any standards whatsoever. No one has posted a shred of proof that this violates any law or the constitution. This was approved by federal judges.

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#70

Posted 11 June 2013 - 02:26 AM

QUOTE (Irviding @ Monday, Jun 10 2013, 18:19)
I just don't get how this is tyranny... I really don't. And I join sivis in arguing that this is not illegal by any standards whatsoever. No one has posted a shred of proof that this violates any law or the constitution. This was approved by federal judges.

I think you missed the entire point I was trying to make, just because a law allowing the government to spy on it's own citizens is put into place and is then deemed legal by no means makes it right..


Do people like you really believe we need the government spying on us to keep us safe? What next, cctv's in our living rooms that listens to everything we say? *cough cough xbox one cough*

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#71

Posted 11 June 2013 - 02:42 AM

So...uh Rand Paul 2016?


@ Irviding: The Fourth and Ninth Amendments, also probably the First under Freedom of Association. Also, just because a judge approves (or in this case rubber stamps) an order doesn't make it Constitutional. We are, after all, human prone to, at best, mistakes.

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#72

Posted 11 June 2013 - 02:58 AM

QUOTE

Do people like you really believe we need the government spying on us to keep us safe? What next, cctv's in our living rooms that listens to everything we say? *cough cough xbox one cough*

It's not spying on you. This program states that the NSA may have access to phone NUMBERS and email ADDRESSES and the like. There is nothing that says they have blanket access to the actual emails or the actual phone conversations. It is a brilliant investigative tool. Say the NSA has an email address in this system that was linked with a terrorist website and suddenly that email address starts getting messages from some address back and fourth. NSA turns it over to FBI who gets a warrant and reads the content of the email and these people were planning an attack on a subway - airline - whatever. This program doesn't just say the government has blanket access to read all your emails and listen to your phonecalls.

QUOTE

@ Irviding: The Fourth and Ninth Amendments, also probably the First under Freedom of Association. Also, just because a judge approves (or in this case rubber stamps) an order doesn't make it Constitutional. We are, after all, human prone to, at best, mistakes.

The ninth amendment? How do you figure that? Are you arguing the states/people should be responsible for counterintelligence and counterterrorism?

As for the fourth amendment, sorry but no. The fourth amendment states -

QUOTE

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


This program is not invading the privacy of anyone whatsoever. So your cable company tells the government what your email address is... too bad. That's your cable company, not the government. They aren't letting them read your emails without a warrant. Your actual phone number, your actual email address - are not your personal effects. These are not things that are your property.

And yes it does make it constitutional in the context of this law. FISA courts were created in the 70s - Congress has the constitutional authority to create any court it wants - and it chose to create FISA courts in the 70s which did in fact authorize this program.

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#73

Posted 11 June 2013 - 02:59 AM

Yes, the President’s have been eroding the Constitution for many years.
The President’s appoint the Judicial Branch, who may then be beholding to the Guy who put the money and power in their pockets, not counting furthering their individual political agenda’s.
Reread the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 14th,
user posted image

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#74

Posted 11 June 2013 - 06:45 AM Edited by sivispacem, 11 June 2013 - 08:40 AM.

QUOTE (Spaghetti Cat @ Tuesday, Jun 11 2013, 03:42)
The Fourth...Amendment

Unreasonable search and seizure only applies to people's possessions or artefacts when they're kept privately. Even if you don't acknowledge the fact that the information being collected for intelligence purposes doesn't actually belong to the citizens who create it, but the technology firms who store it (which basically means that the Fourth Amendment cannot be applied as we aren't discussing the property of citizens, but the property that citizens gave to corporate entities; as such they have no entitlement over it), there's a specific Fourth Amendment exclusion for evidence obtained unlawfully by a private person or organisation under the exclusionary rule, making it's use lawful by authorities connected to the government for legal proceedings.

Also, an aside I failed to notice earlier. The leaked Prism slides show an annual programme budget of $20m. I question how any pervasive, all-encompassing on-the-fly direct network access system capable of drawing down data in real time could be so cheap. A rough, back-of-a-napkin calculation for SSL decryptors alone for, say, 100 critical network points across 10 sites with 100gb/s traffic analysis capability each is already well over that...

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#75

Posted 11 June 2013 - 11:17 AM

Let's ring some bells!

I'm going to a big wedding in America, I love the architecture there! I've heard it was going to be an explosive event of great magnitude, it really is going to be killer! I've already booked my flight, I hope it arrives right on time as it costed me a few thousand dollar to book. I hope I don't get hassled by the TSA because I'm bringing a big gift, the bride and broom are going to explode of joy when they see it. Of course I'll also have a second gift, but that's already delivered and hidden. Gonna be a big surprise!

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#76

Posted 11 June 2013 - 12:18 PM Edited by sivispacem, 11 June 2013 - 03:17 PM.

QUOTE (Raavi @ Tuesday, Jun 11 2013, 12:17)
Let's ring some bells!

I'm going to a big wedding in America, I love the architecture there! I've heard it was going to be an explosive event of great magnitude, it really is going to be killer! I've already booked my flight, I hope it arrives right on time as it costed me a few thousand dollar to book. I hope I don't get hassled by the TSA because I'm bringing a big gift, the bride and broom are going to explode of joy when they see it. Of course I'll also have a second gift, but that's already delivered and hidden. Gonna be a big surprise!

You do know the Echelon keywords idea is an urban legend, don't you?

ETA interesting article on The Register.

Keep calm and carry on- PRISM not much to worry about

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#77

Posted 12 June 2013 - 01:15 AM

Keep calm and carry on... xD alright officer Barbrady, obviously there's nothing to see here.

Mozilla, reddit along with 80-something other groups are making a petition to try and stop all this- https://optin.stopwatching.us/

"The US National Security Agency and Federal Bureau of Investigation have been harvesting data such as audio, video, photographs, emails, and documents from the internal servers of nine major technology companies, according to a leaked 41-slide security presentation obtained by The Washington Post and The Guardian."

They've been recording our phone calls for years-




Who else would I expect to be telling everyone not to worry about this than our very own political information corrector sivispacem.. lol

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#78

Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:38 AM

It probably depends on your definition of 'unreasonable' search and seizure.

It's not unreasonable to listen in on the conversations of three suspected terrorists. Nor 30, or 300, or even 3,000. Heck, if there is 300,000 terrorists the government has a right, given judicial review, to tap in. But, I don't think all 300 MILLION of us are, or could even be suspected of, terrorism. I think that is the rub. Justice my be blind, but I am not.

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#79

Posted 12 June 2013 - 02:52 AM

QUOTE (Spaghetti Cat @ Tuesday, Jun 11 2013, 22:38)
It probably depends on your definition of 'unreasonable' search and seizure. 

It's not unreasonable to listen in on the conversations of three suspected terrorists.  Nor 30, or 300, or even 3,000.  Heck, if there is 300,000 terrorists the government has a right, given judicial review, to tap in.  But, I don't think all 300 MILLION of us are, or could even be suspected of, terrorism.  I think that is the rub.  Justice my be blind, but I am not.

But that's the thing. They aren't just listening in on everyone's conversations and reading everyone's emails. There is a severe lack of understanding as to what this program is going on in this thread.

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#80

Posted 12 June 2013 - 03:01 AM

If I call someone who has Verizon and I have a 3rd party phone service can my call still be monitored? Or does it just apply to outgoing calls made by someone who has their services provided by Verizon?

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#81

Posted 12 June 2013 - 06:44 AM

QUOTE (GrandMaster Smith @ Wednesday, Jun 12 2013, 02:15)
Keep calm and carry on... xD alright officer Barbrady, obviously there's nothing to see here.

QUOTE (GrandMaster Smith @ Wednesday, Jun 12 2013, 02:15)
Who else would I expect to be telling everyone not to worry about this than our very own political information corrector sivispacem.. lol

You are aware that I'm paraphrasing the actual article, and therefore this part of your response being levelled at me is kind of pointless? No? Just thought you should be.

QUOTE (GrandMaster Smith @ Wednesday, Jun 12 2013, 02:15)
Mozilla, reddit along with 80-something other groups are making a petition to try and stop all this- https://optin.stopwatching.us/

The issue is, everyone seems to be grabbing the wrong end of the stick. The entire internet community is up in arms because the NSA has direct access to data stored on technology company's servers- not because these technology companies are granting wholesale access to this data which they're used weasel words and unenforceable terms and conditions to claim is their own. It's the NSA's job to exploit every possible source of data in order to provide an effective and wide-ranging intelligence picture (might I add at this point that we still don't know what this direct access entails- most expert views suggest it's not in fact a true back-door into servers but instead something resembling a digital secure room where information their request- either with or without a warrant depending on circumstance- is placed for them to draw down- rather like a secure drop-box). No-one seems to have looked at this and said "wait a minute, how come Google can provide my data without my permission to security agencies?", which is the question they really should be asking. Therefore the rhetoric around the whole issue gets a bit muddled and confused, because the implication is that the technology firms are unwilling partners in the whole enterprise when in fact it appears that the methodology for collection and dissemination is pretty much entirely their doing.

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#82

Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:30 AM

I heard somewhere that it's not the US government spying on US citizens with the US but rather the US spying on those outside the US and citizens of other countries.

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#83

Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:38 AM

QUOTE (Irviding @ Tuesday, Jun 11 2013, 04:58)
QUOTE

Do people like you really believe we need the government spying on us to keep us safe? What next, cctv's in our living rooms that listens to everything we say? *cough cough xbox one cough*

It's not spying on you.

How is it not spying on you?

"IT IS HEREBY ORDERED that, the Custodian of Records shall produce to the National Security Agency (NSA) upon service of this Order, and continue production on an ongoing daily basis thereafter for the duration of this Order, unless otherwise ordered by the Court, an electronic copy of the following tangible things: all call detail records or "telephony metadata" created by Verizon for communications (i) between the United States and abroad; or (ii) wholly within the United States, including local telephone calls."

"Telephony metadata includes comprehensive communications routing information, including but not limited to session identifying information (e.g., originating and terminating telephone number, International Mobile Subscriber Identity (IMSI) number, International Mobile station Equipment Identity (IMEI) number, etc.), trunk identifier, telephone calling card numbers, and time and duration of call. Telephony metadata does not include the substantive content of any communication, as defined by 18 U.S.C."

The NSA has access to virtually all metadata of your calls. They know where you're calling from, for how long, to whom, who initiated the call, who ended it, the identity of your phone and a ton of other things. And all of this is being stored.

It's not espionage, but the American government is certainly spying on you.

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#84

Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:13 AM

I think Edward Snowden is a moron for being a so-called whistleblower. Of course they are storing all this information and accessing it, i'm sure they have been for a long time, it's a little discomforting, but anyone who can read between the lines would have known this already, this guy threw his life away.

It does bother me sometimes though, when I am watching something f*cked up and I know that someone is probably storing that information somewhere.

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#85

Posted 12 June 2013 - 10:58 AM

QUOTE (finn4life @ Wednesday, Jun 12 2013, 20:43)
Of course they are storing all this information and accessing it, i'm sure they have been for a long time, it's a little discomforting

Well, considering that it is public network (phone lines, etc) being used by people when they use the internet, make phone calls, etc the government is within their rights to monitor the data. If people think that to live in a free world means they don't have to have the government monitor they activity ever so often think again. I don't think people would want to live in a terrorist environment but then again people complain whether or not they being helped.

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#86

Posted 12 June 2013 - 11:03 AM

QUOTE (nightwalker83 @ Wednesday, Jun 12 2013, 21:58)
QUOTE (finn4life @ Wednesday, Jun 12 2013, 20:43)
Of course they are storing all this information and accessing it, i'm sure they have been for a long time, it's a little discomforting

Well, considering that it is public network (phone lines, etc) being used by people when they use the internet, make phone calls, etc the government is within their rights to monitor the data. If people think that to live in a free world means they don't have to have the government monitor they activity ever so often think again. I don't think people would want to live in a terrorist environment but then again people complain whether or not they being helped.

I completely understand the reasoning, and it makes sense, I don't see a big issue with it. But like I said, it is a little discomforting.

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#87

Posted 12 June 2013 - 09:15 PM Edited by baguvix_wanrltw, 13 June 2013 - 03:20 AM.

Warning: this will be a long one. For my standards. If you don't know what that means run for your life now. You've been warned.

First sorry I couldn't participate the last couple of days, I was pretty busy. But now I'm bored and drunk enough to join in.

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Monday, Jun 10 2013, 13:36)
I understand your point but I'm not even remotely convinced what they're doing is actually illegal.

Ever heard of this little concept called "freedom of speech"? I think the Americans like to lie and claim they cared about that whenever possible, because it makes them look like the "good guys". But they f*cking hate that idea more than anyone else anywhere ever.

A while ago some of the actual, real f*cking Americans (those that founded that country, wanting it to become a better place to live) amended that to their constitution as one of 10 amendments that are also known as the Bill Of Rights.

I'll leave it up to you to make the gigantic f*cking logical leap from "I can say whatever I want, without fear of reprisal" to "big brother is watching me all the time, and they can imprison or kill me without even allowing me a day in court whenever they feel like it" yourself. See the tiny, little, supremely well hidden difference? Yeah? No? sarcasm.gif Seriously dude wtf.

And as you admitted yourself it's "sure" they're violating the spirit of the law anyway. Plus there's international law that needs to be considered here since other countries aren't (offically) too happy with PRISM.

Btw, the Netherlands have access to PRISM as well. So do the Belgians.

It's safe to assume french, italian, german etc. authorities have access to the same sh*t. So like I said in my initial post in this thread:

BE AFRAID. If you've ever done anything - cheated on your wife, scammed someone for money, punched someone, didn't pay a parking ticket, called someone a bad name, smoked weed, drove drunk, didn't pay your taxes entirely, .... whatever, anything even remotely "not entirely perfect" - and told anybody about it on the phone, on a forum, on Usenet, via SMS, Email, whatever - NO MATTER WHERE YOU LIVE - you're on record. If you ever piss off the wrong people they CAN and WILL look it up and use it against you. Deal with it.

Some of us have been expecting this (well, probably not quite as bad, but still - close enough) for years so yeah, lol at those naive enough to believe this wasn't happening. We told you. We always tell you and you never listen.

This is, btw, PRECISELY what Snowden was (hopefully, is...) most afraid of. Nothing changing, people just not caring. "I think it doesn't concern me personally, so why should I care?"

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Monday, Jun 10 2013, 13:36)
We don't know what the entire process entails or the scope of collaboration; any estimate is pure assumption at thus point.

So your point is? We should just pretend it wasn't happening and everything was like it was before? Lol.

Just because you (and admittedly I) are interested in the technical details doesn't mean they mean jack sh*t to the average person. They really don't. At all.

All the average person needs to know is: you are being watched. All the time. The only private conversation you can have is direct, person to person, assuming you're not being watched by a camera with a microphone.

So yeah, this is what it feels like people. Total freeeeeedoooom!!!!!!!!!!!!11111

QUOTE
Whilst our whistle-blower's rhetoric is strong, the direct implications are unclear to anyone who hasn't already made their mind up and are thus basing their interpretation on pre-conceived biases.

I could accuse you of the very same thing: a "nothing to see here, move along!" bias. Either you don't care or you want everyone to think there's nothing to care about. I don't understand your motivations but I think you're very, very wrong. Much wronger even than in the last thread. There at least we only had statements, no proof (such as: his employer admitting who he was, publicly firing him, various officials not denying the claims, the slides, apparently a whole treasure trove of documents that's still coming up etc). So I could understand why you would claim we might have it wrong - that other time.

But now we have the f*cking proof. And you're still covering your eyes and ears.

QUOTE
If they wanted to keep it quiet why involve external parties at all?

Because you don't show your best hand unless you have to. Come on, don't play dumb. Easy example: assume the NSA could crack AES-256. Do you think they'd just use that capability to create proof for some piracy case? Lol.

So of course you involve external parties. In a lot of programs. Security by obscurity basically.

That way you can still get the pirate, because you have that metadata and his IP and that log from that antipiracy software and whatnot. But you won't decrypt his f*cking hard drive even though you could, because that WOULD hit the press instantly. And then everyone knows AES is f*cked and then you're f*cked because suddenly you can't decrypt the entire (more or less, blah, technicalities) world's comms anymore because the "bad guys" (=everyone except the US... well, and everyone in the US too unless he's NSA) would switch to any of the other available algos.

If you're smart you can of course still decrypt the hard drive, look for proof and then only use such proof that you could claim to have gotten otherwise as well. I assume that's (going to) happen(ing) more often than we think. Because a lot of data, as usual, makes things much easier if you're looking for "anything". Unlike the case where you look for something specific, which isn't the case here though. Especially not if you're looking for bad guys; then you want anything at first, and from then on you start looking for specifics. And you always filter, from start to end, to simplify the task at hand.

QUOTE
I'm not defending the employment of large scale surveillance

Oh but you are. Just claiming otherwise in a single sentence doesn't change everything else you say/do. You say "we shouldn't be mad at intelligence but companies" and "it's unlikely to be that bad", which seem, to me, to both be attempts to shift attention away from the actual topic/problem. The details you keep getting back to are NOT important right now, they'll be cleared up soon. The Guardian still has lots of material coming up (or so they claim), the WashPost too probably. And then there's politicians from everywhere wanting to know what the f*ck their (supposed) american allies think they're doing, who want to know precisely what's up. Then there's the people asking questions. All in all, just chill, you'll get your details in due time. For now, let's focus on getting this process of getting the details started. And that means to spread the word, and not try to come up with apologies for such gruesome violations of (inter)national rights.

QUOTE
just questioning whether we have enough actual evidence to make reasonable judgements regarding the scale, scope and capability of these systems.

No we don't. And we don't need to, just like I said before. Even if the technical details - which is VERY UNLIKELY given everything Snowden said, watch the 15 minute interview, you won't regret it - made it impossible to fulfill their wettest spy dreams, and prohibit them to store *everything* *forever* - we now have proof that that is what they want, and are actively trying to accomplish. And we have people who were proven to be actively involved in this sh*t saying that they are actually doing it. Maybe it's just for 10 years, maybe 20. And maybe it's just 63% of the worldwide comms they're snorkeling up, not 100%.

BUT WHAT THE f*ck? Is that the argument? lol.gif Is that supposed to make this any better?

As for the resources... again... Utah Data Center. I told you they weren't baking cookies there. And we all know that's not the only one.

QUOTE
companies we entrust with our private data under the deluded, misguided and false pretence that they have anything even vaguely resembling a duty to protect it

Well I'm not sure how it is in the british empire but where I come from we have very strong data and privacy protection laws. They DO have a duty to be careful with our data and to protect it from anyone, including law enforcement. That's why our law enforcement constantly cry about how they can do nothing and can't stop crime anymore, but unfortunately for them and their wet dreams our crime statistics are still falling.
Damn f*cking people just not being violent and evil enough, poor pigs are soon all gonna be out of a job. Just another reason why we need mass surveillance, so the pigs got something to do when they're not beating up old people, demonstrators or teenagers.

The USA and american companies also claim to be a safe haven for data but we all know their worth isn't worth jack squat, it's just been very impressively proven once again. In that regard you are right: if you are f*cking retarded enough to think Facebook is a good idea you deserve everything you get. Yes every single one of you, no matter who you are or what you do.

Same thing goes for me. I use Win7. Microsoft. Of course I f*cked myself big time as well, I'm just as stupid - I thought staying away from Suckerberg's suckerpile would help keep me safe but clearly that was bullsh*t. Yes sir, I'm retarded. And I should have known better. But luckily I was bitcoin-trojanized recently (GPU miner, wonderful but the miner was too greedy and fan speed was always 100% lol, hard not to notice) so to be safe I have to reinstall anyway, and this time I won't be using an OS from Redmond tounge.gif

So what's the lesson? If you want to have any privacy at all you have to go full underground. You have to behave like a f*cking terrorist leader. Only use non-american software. If you use the internet try to stay away from anything american as far as you can. If you have to use IM clients, chat or videochat, use Jabber/XMPP. Always use TOR. VPNs might work too, unless of course you're working with anyone who's working with anyone who's working with anyone who's working with an american company, software product or - anything really, a .com domains means you're suddenly bound to american laws as well, at least that's what the americans claim when illegally arresting someone for some imaginary crime anywhere on the world.

QUOTE
It isn't the intelligence framework that is rotten, but the entire political/economic/social triad in which it operates.

That's true of course, but just pointing the finger away from ourselves doesn't make it better imho.

That's the same excuse all the old f*cking Nazis use. "It wasn't our fault, we were just following orders. We didn't know it would be so bad. They said it was ok. I had no choice." I don't think there's any excuse I despise more.

If you think something is rotten f*cking nut up and do something about it. Snowden did it too.


QUOTE (Irviding @ Tuesday, Jun 11 2013, 02:58)
It's not spying on you. This program states that the NSA may have access to phone NUMBERS and email ADDRESSES and the like.

Dude, have you like, not read a SINGLE f*ckING POST in this thread after the OP?

I told you 40 times already. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PRISM. And Boundless Informant. NOT JUST the Verizon metadata sh*t.

"Edward Snowden". Google it. Might get 3 or 4 hits. After you read that, and what any of the stuff we're talking is about, then come back. There's no point arguing the same stuff again and again 100 times if you don't even know what this is about.

AGAIN: YES, we know the metadata sh*t. PRISM and Boundless Informant (to name a few of those programs, hr-hrm.... there are many many more) go much further. THEY are the big problem. Verizon sucks too, so does the FBI stuff, the TSA, the "national security letters".... but neither of them are the topic of the discussion. Yeah the OP didn't state that (at least not at first) but the topic has evolved because of "hot news". Check it out. I'm glad to discuss this as soon as we're talking about the same thing. They DOOOOOOOO have access to the content. NOT JUST the metadata. THAT is what the entire f*cking discussion is about lol



QUOTE (sivispacem @ Tuesday, Jun 11 2013, 06:45)
Unreasonable search and seizure only applies to people's possessions or artefacts when they're kept privately. Even if you don't acknowledge the fact that the information being collected for intelligence purposes doesn't actually belong to the citizens who create it, but the technology firms who store it

Again I have to wonder how the f*ck you can think anything like that. So you believe that as soon as I send an E-Mail (even from my own mail server) with company code to another mail server (my company's) that data suddenly belongs to - um, the NSA I guess? Lol wtf dude, troll harder. Seriously this is just not even worthy of discussion.

Yeah you said "who store it" - but that's of course just conveniently disregarding the fact that we're NOT just talking about stored data with these newly "found" NSA programs but ANYTHING that goes over the internet, which, as you said yourself before, usually means it "crosses US territory", at least virtually, as sh*tty as that fact is.

But even if I play that game: saving source code in an encrypted file on somerandomhoster.com doesn't mean the NSA may decrypt that and steal my work. And those "anything posted here is now belong to us!!!" thing is very dubious as well in civilized nations and often legally anything but cleared up. Same thing goes for private stuff as well of course, it's just that when money comes into play people usually tend to get the point quicker.

QUOTE
Also, an aside I failed to notice earlier.  The leaked Prism slides show an annual programme budget of $20m. I question how any pervasive, all-encompassing on-the-fly direct network access system capable of drawing down data in real time could be so cheap. A rough, back-of-a-napkin calculation for SSL decryptors alone for, say, 100 critical network points across 10 sites with 100gb/s traffic analysis capability each is already well over that...

Just because some random number on some random slide doesn't match your random expectations of what that random program we know next to nothing about - except that it's aimed at getting EVERYONE'S data and seems to be pretty good at that - should cost on some random scale doesn't mean squat and you know it.

Yeah we want the details, they're interesting to us. But since that stuff won't be entirely declassified for 25 or so more years I think we'll have to sit back for now and deal with what we got.

As long as nobody in the know is denying what Snowden is giving us (actually so far everyone said it was true) I'll take his word and his proof over my own guesses. But if you want to see that differently be my guest.


QUOTE (sivispacem @ Tuesday, Jun 11 2013, 12:18)
You do know the Echelon keywords idea is an urban legend,  don't you?

You said something like this in the other thread and I told you before: if you're claiming filtering data in order to narrow down the pool is an urban legend you must be out of your mind, no matter whether you want to throw ECHELON into that or not. That has nothing to do with those "new" programs anyway (well, at least not officially - yet).


QUOTE (sivispacem @ Tuesday, Jun 11 2013, 12:18)
ETA interesting article on The Register.

Keep calm and carry on- PRISM not much to worry about

Now there you're just making fun of yourself lol.gif

First of all, as has been pointed out already, the title. They should've just gone all the way and called it "Smiles and sunshine: Why Britain loves and needs the NSA, our glorious leader".

Second, the first word in that piece of s... excuse me, piece of great journalism. "Analysis". Yeah, they analyzed REAAAAAAAL well.

QUOTE
Analysis PRISM, the top secret US National Security Agency web communications and user data collection program revealed by whistleblower Edward Snowden last Friday, and targeted on nine top US web service providers, would seem unlikely to be the total, tyrannical surveillance behemoth reporters first assumed.

Oh my, why is that you may ask, dear reader? They have a great explanation, you just wait!

QUOTE
That’s because its numbers, as published, just don’t add up.

Incredible! The same point sivi made! And with just as much evidence to support it! As I said above: 4 random slides... first everyone claims they can't give us the whole picture, but suddenly when it comes to money they must hold all the answers? And if these random numbers for some random expense don't fit our random expectations that must mean it's all just a hoax! Yeah, there you have it, move along people! Nothing to see here!

QUOTE
The Guardian may also have missed a potentially significant scoop buried within the PRISM revelations – apparent confirmation that about the time in 2011 that Microsoft acquired Skype for $7bn, the U.S. government also acquired a back way in to the previously secure, complex and highly trusted peer-to-peer voice over IP system.

Yes, what a great scoop indeed! Except the turds at the Register are too dumb to interpret american dates. The takeover happened months AFTER the gov't found its way back. But that's just the kind of quality journalism you'd except from a story with such a clearly objective, non-leading title! lol.gif

I'm gonna stop there, this is just... sad. Just to point out one last thing: The Register argues mostly that PRISM is not much to worry about - for people from GB. Yeah. Everyone else? Hm. And yeah, GB was in on PRISM as well, just like AU, CA, DE, FI, IT, ES, ... you name 'em. Just wait for the confirmations, they're coming in daily now. If nobody in your home country has any balls you'll have to wait for Wikileaks.


QUOTE (Irviding @ Wednesday, Jun 12 2013, 02:52)
There is a severe lack of understanding as to what this program is going on in this thread.

Indeed, and it's incredibly maddening to see you showcasing it on the fourth straight page in a row. Read the f*ck up on PRISM and Snowden etc finally, this isn't funny anymore. Yeah we get it, you only read the Verizon stuff and find that totally cool. FFS.


QUOTE (sivispacem @ Wednesday, Jun 12 2013, 06:44)
The issue is, everyone seems to be grabbing the wrong end of the stick. The entire internet community is up in arms because the NSA has direct access to data stored on technology company's servers- not because these technology companies are granting wholesale access to this data which they're used weasel words and unenforceable terms and conditions to claim is their own. It's the NSA's job to exploit every possible source of data in order to provide an effective and wide-ranging intelligence picture

See that might be *your* point. But it's definitely not *the* point. Everyone's already used to (american) companies being extorted by (american) authorities. And everyone knows they're forced to do things by a bunch of henchmen of secret courts, secret laws and secret interpretations of laws, made up by secret rulers. Because democracy, f*ck yeah!

*THE* point is that those motherf*ckers are using those capabilities against their own people, even though they are expressly NOT allowed to do that. Another part of the point is that they're doing the same sh*t to allies without their knowledge. Yet another part is that they're doing it internationally in cooperation with national authorities which means EVERYONE suffers from it, not just the americans.

And all of THAT is the f*cking problem. Not that people in companies seldomly risk their lives in order to be heroes like Edward Snowden. Well yeah, I figured that much, thanks.


QUOTE (nightwalker83 @ Wednesday, Jun 12 2013, 07:30)
I heard somewhere that it's not the US government spying on US citizens with the US but rather the US spying on those outside the US and citizens of other countries.

QUOTE (nightwalker83 @ Wednesday, Jun 12 2013, 10:58)
Well, considering that it is public network (phone lines, etc) being used by people when they use the internet, make phone calls, etc the government is within their rights to monitor the data. If people think that to live in a free world means they don't have to have the government monitor they activity ever so often think again. I don't think people would want to live in a terrorist environment but then again people complain whether or not they being helped.

This is just brilliant. Let me paraphrase: "I herd it's cool. Dun worry gaiz!!!" - "Hey, I laik, I dun need parivsy cuz I no teerristz who suxx so yeah its coool #yolo lol!!"

I... yeah... I'll keep it short: you heard wrong. They ARE spying on US citizens. Read the f*cking thread. Read... anything. For the love of god. Also, you have no idea what "public" means. And no idea what privacy means. Or what terrorists are. Or what "ever so often" means in the real world, as we've been just given proof of. Go sit in the corner.


QUOTE (finn4life @ Wednesday, Jun 12 2013, 10:13)
I think Edward Snowden is a moron for being a so-called whistleblower [...] this guy threw his life away.

See my friend, this little detail is what makes the difference between a piece of sh*t and a hero.

QUOTE
It does bother me sometimes though, when I am watching something f*cked up and I know that someone is probably storing that information somewhere.

Yes, suddenly when it's bad for you it gets interesting doesn't it? <dontwanttoliveonthisplanetanymore.gif>

QUOTE (finn4life @ Wednesday, Jun 12 2013, 11:03)
I don't see a big issue with it. But like I said, it is a little discomforting.

I don't think that's anything to worry about, from what I've been told dogs need to have their heads stuck into their own sh*t too to make them understand something is not right. You'll get the message eventually, don't worry about it.




Ok, now just generally on topic:

http://www.schneier....nment_secr.html
QUOTE (Bruce Schneier)
The leaker for at least some of this is Edward Snowden. I consider him an American hero.

Read the entire thing, the post was (like this thread) initially just about the Verizon stuff but then grew far beyond that due to the new revelations.

http://www.schneier....cuting_sno.html
QUOTE (Bruce Schneier)
It's clear that some of the NSA programs exposed by Snowden violate the Constitution and others violate existing laws. Other people have an opposite view. The courts need to decide.

I believe that history will hail Snowden as a hero -- his whistle-blowing exposed a surveillance state and a secrecy machine run amok. I'm less optimistic of how the present day will treat him, and hope that the debate right now is less about the man and more about the government he exposed.


http://www.theatlant...-terror/276695/
The Irrationality of Giving Up This Much Liberty to Fight Terror
user posted image
QUOTE
The CDC estimates that food poisoning kills roughly 3,000 Americans every year. Every year, food-borne illness takes as many lives in the U.S. as were lost during the high outlier of terrorism deaths. It's a killer more deadly than terrorism. Should we cede a significant amount of liberty to fight it?



http://www.scmp.com/...-decide-my-fate
QUOTE
Edward Snowden says he wants to ask the people of Hong Kong to decide his fate after choosing the city because of his faith in its rule of law.

The 29-year-old former CIA employee behind what might be the biggest intelligence leak in US history revealed his identity to the world in Hong Kong on Sunday. His decision to use a city under Chinese sovereignty as his haven has been widely questioned – including by some rights activists in Hong Kong.

Snowden said last night that he had no doubts about his choice of Hong Kong.

“People who think I made a mistake in picking Hong Kong as a location misunderstand my intentions. I am not here to hide from justice; I am here to reveal criminality,” Snowden said in an exclusive interview with the South China Morning Post.

“I have had many opportunities to flee HK, but I would rather stay and fight the United States government in the courts, because I have faith in Hong Kong’s rule of law,” he added.

Snowden says he has committed no crimes in Hong Kong and has “been given no reason to doubt [Hong Kong’s legal] system”.

“My intention is to ask the courts and people of Hong Kong to decide my fate,” he said.

[...]He says he plans to stay in Hong Kong until he is “asked to leave”.



EDIT: Hm, all in all this still feels a little too short. So why not f*ck up that retarded "but it's da courts!!! So it's cool dawg!!!" """""argument""""" while I'm at it?

Let me give you kids who have apparently never heard of a judge who didn't rule (or act) according to the law a simple example.

user posted image

Guy went to jail. Had to pay fines. Couldn't pay fines. Was put back in jail. Got out, got a job. Couldn't pay fines entirely. So they took him to jail again, which of course meant losing his job. Let him out, put him back in. Yeah, kind of a vicious circle. Which is why it's prohibited by law. But judges don't give a f*ck about the law. They just rule the way they want. Welcome to a civilized nation.

Oh, what is that? A court f*cking a person up the ass, despite acting completely OUTSIDE and AGAINST the law with that? UNHEARD OF!!!!!!!!!!111111

Also: secret laws. Secret interpretations of laws. Secret courts, that get to secretly interpret the official secret interpretations of secret laws. THERE IS NO OVERSIGHT. THIS IS NOT (!) IN ANY WAY a functioning legal system.


EDIT: And because talking to myself is so much fun tounge.gif

http://www.scmp.com/...-kong-and-china

QUOTE
In an exclusive interview carried out from a secret location in the city, the former Central Intelligence Agency analyst also made explosive claims that the US government had been hacking into computers in Hong Kong and on the mainland for years. [...]

One of the targets in the SAR, according to Snowden, was Chinese University and public officials, businesses and students in the city. The documents also point to hacking activity by the NSA against mainland targets.

Snowden believed there had been more than 61,000 NSA hacking operations globally, with hundreds of targets in Hong Kong and on the mainland.

We hack network backbones – like huge internet routers, basically – that give us access to the communications of hundreds of thousands of computers without having to hack every single one,” he said. [...]

“Last week the American government happily operated in the shadows with no respect for the consent of the governed, but no longer. Every level of society is demanding accountability and oversight.”

Snowden said he was releasing the information to demonstrate “the hypocrisy of the US government when it claims that it does not target civilian infrastructure, unlike its adversaries”. (Posters note: apparently Snowden didn't get the message, we call that "collateral damage")

“Not only does it do so, but it is so afraid of this being known that it is willing to use any means, such as diplomatic intimidation, to prevent this information from becoming public.” [...]

“All I can do is rely on my training and hope that world governments will refuse to be bullied by the United States into persecuting people seeking political refuge.”

Asked if he had been offered asylum by the Russian government, he said: “My only comment is that I am glad there are governments that refuse to be intimidated by great power”.[...]

“The reality is that I have acted at great personal risk to help the public of the world, regardless of whether that public is American, European, or Asian.”



Also: more whistleblowers admitting to having had knowledge of said (and/or similar) programs. First the guy who we discussed in the other surveillance thread before this one, now Thomas Drake.
QUOTE (Wikipedia)
Thomas Andrews Drake (born 1957) is a former senior executive of the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) and a decorated United States Air Force and United States Navy veteran. He has experience with computer software, linguistics, management, and leadership. He is also a whistleblower. In 2010 the government alleged that Drake 'mishandled' documents, one of the few such Espionage Act cases in U.S. history. Drake's defenders claim that he was instead being persecuted for challenging the Trailblazer Project. He is the 2011 recipient of the Ridenhour Prize for Truth-Telling and co-recipient of the Sam Adams Associates for Integrity in Intelligence (SAAII) award.
On June 9, 2011, all 10 original charges against him were dropped. Drake rejected several deals because he refused to "plea bargain with the truth". He eventually pled to one misdemeanor count for exceeding authorized use of a computer; Jesselyn Radack of the Government Accountability Project, who helped represent him, called it an act of "civil disobedience."


http://www.guardian....ng-constitution

QUOTE (Thomas Drake @ Guardian)
General Michael Hayden, who was head of the NSA when I worked there, and then director of the CIA, said, "We need to own the net." And that is what they're implementing here. They have this extraordinary system: in effect, a 24/7 panopticon on a vast scale that it is gazing at you with an all-seeing eye.

I lived with that dirty knowledge for years. Before 9/11, the prime directive at the NSA was that you don't spy on Americans without a warrant; to do so was against the law – and, in particular, was a criminal violation of Fisa. My concern was that we were more than an accessory; this was a crime and we were subverting the constitution.

I differed as a whistleblower to Snowden only in this respect: in accordance with the Intelligence Community Whistleblower Protection Act, I took my concerns up within the chain of command, to the very highest levels at the NSA, and then to Congress and the Department of Defense. I understand why Snowden has taken his course of action, because he's been following this for years: he's seen what's happened to other whistleblowers like me.


Whitehouse.gov petition to pardon Snowden

Stop Watching Us letter to the US congress, signed by the Mozilla Foundation, EFF, and almost 100,000 others

baguvix_wanrltw
  • baguvix_wanrltw

    Cynical, yeah. Bitter, probably.

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#88

Posted 14 June 2013 - 08:38 PM Edited by baguvix_wanrltw, 14 June 2013 - 08:45 PM.

"Whistleblower welcome in China"

Why didn't anyone tell me I could control international politics from in here?

QUOTE (baguvix_wanrltw @ Monday, Jun 10 2013, 12:57)
China, time to nut up or shut up. Give this guy asylum, save him from the evil oppressive antidemocratic anti-freedom regime. This has a f*cking bow on it and he's already knocking at your door. f*ck the media spin, just save the life.

This is a commentary, released by the official chinese news agency - that's nothing legally binding or anything but I doubt chinese media release much material that wasn't approved... and since apparently China has the last word should the US decide to request Snowden's extradition from HK...

http://news.xinhuane...c_132455893.htm
QUOTE
For this reason China, despite the fact that it does not have a good reputation as far as Internet governance is concerned, should move boldly and grant Snowden asylum. [...]

Second, let us look at another kind of American personality. How can we understand and explain Snowden and similar figures? These young idealists, including the Washington Post's Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein who helped to bring down President Nixon in the Watergate affair, Wiki leaks' Julian Assange and former American soldier Bradley Manning, among others, can be categorized as the "bright feathers" of our time, to borrow some words from the popular American movie The Shawshank Redemption. [...]

"Some birds are not meant to be caged. Their feathers are just too bright. And when they fly away, the part of you that knows it was a sin to lock them up does rejoice."

Of course they could still just send in some of their ninjas but I doubt China would approve much.

There have also been protests on the HK streets to grant Snowden asylum.

Oh and guess what, after singular countries now the European Commissioner for Justice, Fundamental Rights and Citizenship Viviane Reding is acting all pissed off as well.

OT: And of course Obama, in his incredible wisdom, found a way to divert attention from all this - the american way: a new war! Sigh.

The Yokel
  • The Yokel

    Boob groper

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#89

Posted 14 June 2013 - 08:48 PM

This entire ordeal was so predictable since it's inception. It plays like a bad political thriller. Jeez.

Irviding
  • Irviding

    No bed crew

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#90

Posted 14 June 2013 - 11:19 PM Edited by Irviding, 14 June 2013 - 11:24 PM.

QUOTE

Indeed, and it's incredibly maddening to see you showcasing it on the fourth straight page in a row. Read the f*ck up on PRISM and Snowden etc finally, this isn't funny anymore. Yeah we get it, you only read the Verizon stuff and find that totally cool. FFS.

I've "read up" on it plenty and I see absolutely no problem with it. I think you have absolutely nothing better to do with your life so you choose to complain about "government surveillance" in the context of a program that is monitored to within an inch of its life by numerous agencies (not just the NSA) and is approved by the courts. Get the f*ck over it and move on with your life. This isn't impinging your freedoms. As I said over and over, to access specific call data they'd have to have a reason to do as such and if they did have a reason to do that, they would acquire a warrant from a FISA judge. However I see absolutely no problem with PRISM nor any of these other programs as they are fully authorized by the judicial branch and legislative branch and, in my opinion, are perfectly constitutional.

QUOTE


How is it not spying on you?

"IT IS HEREBY ORDERED that, the Custodian of Records shall produce to the National Security Agency (NSA) upon service of this Order, and continue production on an ongoing daily basis thereafter for the duration of this Order, unless otherwise ordered by the Court, an electronic copy of the following tangible things: all call detail records or "telephony metadata" created by Verizon for communications (i) between the United States and abroad; or (ii) wholly within the United States, including local telephone calls."

"Telephony metadata includes comprehensive communications routing information, including but not limited to session identifying information (e.g., originating and terminating telephone number, International Mobile Subscriber Identity (IMSI) number, International Mobile station Equipment Identity (IMEI) number, etc.), trunk identifier, telephone calling card numbers, and time and duration of call. Telephony metadata does not include the substantive content of any communication, as defined by 18 U.S.C."

The NSA has access to virtually all metadata of your calls. They know where you're calling from, for how long, to whom, who initiated the call, who ended it, the identity of your phone and a ton of other things. And all of this is being stored.

It's not espionage, but the American government is certainly spying on you.

So what? Why is that something you have a problem with? I'm not even making the old "if you have nothing to hide you shouldn't care" argument as I find it inherently flawed. I'm arguing that as someone who puts national security ahead of most other political issues, I see this as a perfectly reasonable method of not only counterterrorism but counterintelligence that has a million ways it can help and few it can hurt. So what if the government has access to who I am calling? The local police department can dump your phone records if you're suspected of being involved with a crime too and no one claims the Sheriff's office down the road is spying on them. If I call someone who is a known terrorist or a known foreign operative, this program would allow the NSA to immediately know I called said person and then they can acquire a FISA warrant to listen to the call and look more into it. How people see that as an issue I do not understand.




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