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Irviding
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#31

Posted 08 June 2013 - 09:50 PM Edited by Irviding, 08 June 2013 - 09:57 PM.

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Saturday, Jun 8 2013, 02:38)
There's not been a great deal of clarity about the utilisation of these powers. I can see the security value of having access to this data and why the NSA want to maintain the free access capability to data legally held and owned by technology and online service providers, but I question quite how valuable drawing down this data en masse would be from an intelligence point of view. None of the articles I've seen actually address this question.

I agree that the whole thing is really morally questionable but I lay the blame squarely at the feet of the organisations who effectively extort the information silently and without proper prior consent from users. Thinking that the NSA might have access to it would be the least of my worries given how financially valuable PII is to all sorts of shady and criminal organisations.

How could it not be useful for intelligence purposes to be able to have access to phone numbers and emails. The example I provided on the last page with regard to having suspected phone numbers on a watchlist then having it triggered should a call be made to one of those numbers would be an invaluable intelligence tool. This is all legal and fully constitutional - this was done through FISA court authorization which is fully legal. FISA courts were created in the 70s as counterintelligence tools, they aren't even a USA PATRIOT Act thing. Some choose to argue that FISA courts are rubber stamps, but like the constitution says, Congress has the authority to create courts and they created the FISA court and it does what its mandate is.

QUOTE

PRISM, is madness. As a citizen of the EU, I optate the following to happen; the President of the European Council to put the US Government on notice that they have 24 hours to cease and desist spy activities on EU citizens. And that failure to comply, will result in a motion to dissolve NATO, end all diplomatic links with the USA and end all bilateral links with the USA including all extradition agreements. Further more, the military forces of al EU countries are to disengage with immediate effect from all military engagements that are in partnership with US Forces.

The funny thing is that they're still surprised they're one of, if not the most hated country (governments), on earth.

You're out of your mind if you think the US gives a sh*t if you all left NATO. Apart from the UK, every single NATO nation is a blood sucking parasite on the US military budget.

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#32

Posted 08 June 2013 - 10:01 PM

You gotta love the US Government. Oh No We are not spying on citizens, we are only spying on the 6.7 billion terrorist outside of the country. Not to mention the president apparently ordered cyber attacks to be done. cough link cough

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#33

Posted 08 June 2013 - 10:35 PM

So what? We are cyber attacked by the Chinese and Russians every day.

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#34

Posted 09 June 2013 - 12:34 AM

I don't wish to be spied on any more, guess it is time to hide under a rock and become a technophobe.

sivispacem
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#35

Posted 09 June 2013 - 08:17 AM Edited by sivispacem, 09 June 2013 - 08:20 AM.

QUOTE (Irviding @ Saturday, Jun 8 2013, 22:50)
How could it not be useful for intelligence purposes to be able to have access to phone numbers and emails.

I think you misunderstood me- I was referring to the huge quantities of data accessible by PRISM, not the communication metadata the Guardian revealed the NSA had access to. I don't care about the metadata because it's no an infringement of privacy for them to be getting access to it; there's nothing directly identifying about it- unlike content. To be honest I don't care about the content either- people should use secure mailing away from the Big Four (Apple, Microsoft, Google and Yahoo) and don't put anything in the public domain or into the servers of large technology companies they don't want anyone else reading.

QUOTE (agent17 @ Sunday, Jun 9 2013, 01:34)
I don't wish to be spied on any more, guess it is time to hide under a rock and become a technophobe.

Alternatively, don't sign up to any social media, use Hushmail on PGP Desktop or via a live CD as your email provider, don't use Skype or Yahoo messenger and go with a small ISP.

lil weasel
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#36

Posted 09 June 2013 - 08:31 AM

whether or not the Government has the current ability to read or otherwise monitor personal 'conversations' isn't the point. There is the future tech possibilities that the people in Government have permission to do it. That should be the worry. Current law becomes perverted when tech catches up.

Of course, honest people have nothing to worry about. smile.gif As it does take a few minutes for the Legislature to turn Honest citizens into Felons.

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#37

Posted 09 June 2013 - 08:39 AM

QUOTE

The secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (Fisa) granted the order to the FBI on April 25 , giving the government unlimited authority to obtain the data for a specified three-month period ending on July 19 .


I can certainly see the ramifications of this sort of thing being abused in broader application but with such a specified parameter of dates I'm more concerned about what possibly went down 3 months prior to July 19th that's got them so worried.

sivispacem
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#38

Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:04 AM

QUOTE (lil weasel @ Sunday, Jun 9 2013, 09:31)
whether or not the Government has the current ability to read or otherwise monitor personal 'conversations' isn't the point.

The issue isn't monitoring, the issue is analysing. Non-targeted, general intelligence collection and analysis is horrendously inefficient- just look at mass surveillance operations like those conducted by the likes of the Stasi. You can't really automate intelligence analysis- or, more accurately, you can't automate the kind of heuristic intelligence analysis required to assess interactive communication, due to the subjectivity of interpretation- that's where the real issues lie. To be truthful, if the government wanted to listen in on any communication they have the capability to do so, warrant or no warrant. The questions are whether 1) it's in their interest to sort through huge quantities of completely superfluous data to find a very small amount of potentially worthwhile information (the most widely-held perspective amongst subject matter experts is currently that there's no feasible way that it would be worth the time, money, effort and material costs of doing so), and 2) whether they have the intent to subvert constitutional law and legally enshrined rights to do so. From all the leaks we've seen so far, the interesting thing I've noted is that these activities all sit within the confines of what is legally permissible under the constitution. In fact, the really abhorrent violation of the Fourth Amendment is being perpetrated by the technology and online services firms who are collecting all this personal data and claiming it as their own in the first place.

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#39

Posted 09 June 2013 - 10:23 AM

Once the People in Government have their foot in the door who knows if it can ever be shut again.
Who when the book "1984" was printed thought there would ever be CCTV on all the street corners, for the stated purpose of 'to protect the citizens'. Sure, well maybe, the People in Government might not be able to or even want to read/listen to the peons, but eventually when they can they will. So you want to put a stop to it Now.

Today it's the Alleged Terrorists, tomorrow it will be the Freedom Fighters.
Grocers selling food, landlords renting rooms, Autorental companies leasing vehicles... what makes an honest citizen a possible terrorist threat when dealing with a Government's suspect?

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#40

Posted 09 June 2013 - 05:58 PM Edited by baguvix_wanrltw, 09 June 2013 - 06:05 PM.

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Friday, Jun 7 2013, 21:59)
This is a problem with the idea of law and the internet, though. The issue is that, according to US law, the data of organisations centred in the US, whose data storage facilities are in the US, can be subject to this kind of interrogation. We also have to acknowledge that, despite the internet being a decentralised global commodity, it is in effect actually an American-run, American-derived, and US-centred service. The IANA and ICANN are both US organisations, US centred and with a heavy debt to the USDoD. As much as the rest of the world may not like it, we somewhat have to play by America's rules when it comes to global networking infrastructure- because when push comes to shove it's all basically operated from the US. In once sense, it's the US' fault for imposing domestic terms and conditions on global internet users. But on the other hand, we're talking people making voluntary decisions to involve themselves in these services and consign to these terms and conditions. The question of how informed they are when they make these decisions is important, but nonetheless one must accept that individuals take responsibility for both their actions and at least a large proportion of how informed they are.

You're right and that point is principally valid but imho there's one critical flaw:

"we're talking people making voluntary decisions to involve themselves in these services"

Using the internet - at all - is NOT a decision. You have to nowadays. Whether on the job, as an unemployed person, politican, retired person, child. Everybody has to. Some organizations have declared internet access a human right already. And you can't get away from Google, MS, Yahoo, ...; try loading any random 5 pages and see how many of those sites use google analytics etc.

And that's when all of that "but it's US stuff so they can do what they want" becomes meaningless imho; this should very much be fought against as I've stated in one of the other threads. But we're really getting onto a tangent here smile.gif


As for that "the govt is fighting windmills by trying to fight terrorists the way they are" argument: I agree. But they are WELL aware of that. To paraphrase Bruce Schneier: "We need to do something. This is something. So it is what we must do!"

They realize that stuff like the TSA, air marshals etc. are a waste of money - but they have to appear to "do something". They can't just sit on their hands and say "well, it's a shame this happened but we can't really do anything to prevent such things". That would be the truth and they know it. But they can't say it or they'll appear weak, and "not willing to fight" to too many people. And that could/would cost them their jobs. Obama came up with (=stole from Schneier) that great "the american people refuse to be terrorized" recently. But I'm pretty sure he didn't really mean it.


But to actually get on topic now...
http://www.guardian....obal-datamining
http://www.guardian....rism-obama-live

Raavi: There'll be simulated "outrage" for a week (if that) and then we'll be back to normal. We all know it.

sivi: Hush, why not, except they're listening in on that too tounge.gif See the Guardian article. Not named specifically of course but I think it was established in this thread (and others...) that they snorkle up a f*ckload of data from everywhere they can get it, including just raw traffic from "fiber cables as data flows past".

user posted image

So only use your own mail servers! And be your own ISP! And... well f*ck lol

That image from an NSA slide (taken from the guardian article above) shows clearly that, unlike what has been stated recently, they DO have direct server access. Whether or not the marketing suits at Google and MS know that is a different question, but I'd expect them to have to lie anyway (NDAs and such). In a country with secret prisons, secret trials etc. I don't think any company would try to f*ck with the gov't.

Fun fact btw: the country that the NSA spies on the most in Europe: Germany. Because that's basically just one big islamic terrorcamp! biggrin.gif Surely no industrial espionage btw, the USA don't do that moto_whistle.gif

user posted image

Oh... another fun fact: that map also clearly shows they are spying heavily on US citizens. I thought they said they didn't do that? THEY? LIED? IMPOSSIBLE!!!1111

QUOTE (lil weasel @ Sunday, Jun 9 2013, 08:31)
Of course, honest people have nothing to worry about. smile.gif As it does take a few minutes for the Legislature to turn Honest citizens into Felons.

I'm not sure if you came up with that or you stole it but I think I'll have to steal it from you biggrin.gif Sums it up perfectly.

But that: "Today it's the Alleged Terrorists, tomorrow it will be the Freedom Fighters." - you should know better. Only the USA are freedom fighters. Everyone else is a terrorist.

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#41

Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:30 PM

@baguvix_wanrltw

Well said. This further shows that the government does whatever the hell it wants to do regardless of what America wants.

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#42

Posted 09 June 2013 - 06:33 PM

I want to see how far his approval ratings have dropped, does anyone know yet?

baguvix_wanrltw
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#43

Posted 09 June 2013 - 08:25 PM Edited by baguvix_wanrltw, 09 June 2013 - 08:49 PM.

Say hello to my little friend.

user posted image

Edward Snowden. 29. Man with a conscience. NSA leaker. Probably about to get tortured and/or murdered, as usual in "civilized countries". Oh and say hi to Bradley when you see him!

http://www.guardian....er-surveillance

QUOTE
Edward Snowden: the whistleblower behind the NSA surveillance revelations
The 29-year-old source behind the biggest intelligence leak in the NSA's history explains his motives, his uncertain future and why he never intended on hiding in the shadows


Btw, doing this while Manning is on trial after being subjected to inhumane conditions for such a long time... yes folks, this is one of those people that might actually deserve the designation "hero". We'll see.

And again it wasn't some evil chinese russian islamist terrorist pedophile who tried to hurt the US!!!111 No, again it was a young man with an actual conscience who tried to do something good for the people, not a piece of sh*t like I assume most people in positions such as these guys' are.


Btw sivi, a quote for you from the Greenwald/Snowden interview. I'm sure you're gonna love this one:
QUOTE
Now increasingly we see that it's happening domestically... and to do that, they, the NSA specifically targets the communications of everyone.
It ingests them by default. It collects them in its system and it filters them and it analyzes them and it measures them and it stores them for periods of time, simply because that's the easiest, most efficient and most valuable way to achieve those ends.

So while they may be intending to target someone associated with a foreign government or someone that they suspect of terrorism they are collecting your communications to do so.


Sound familiar at all? lol.gif But hey Schneier thought it was BS too... for a while.

sivispacem
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#44

Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:10 PM

QUOTE (baguvix_wanrltw @ Sunday, Jun 9 2013, 21:25)
Btw sivi, a quote for you from the Greenwald/Snowden interview. I'm sure you're gonna love this one:
QUOTE
Now increasingly we see that it's happening domestically... and to do that, they, the NSA specifically targets the communications of everyone.
It ingests them by default. It collects them in its system and it filters them and it analyzes them and it measures them and it stores them for periods of time, simply because that's the easiest, most efficient and most valuable way to achieve those ends.

So while they may be intending to target someone associated with a foreign government or someone that they suspect of terrorism they are collecting your communications to do so.


Sound familiar at all? lol.gif But hey Schneier thought it was BS too... for a while.

I know what you're saying, but that's not how I read that statement. The implication to me, is that everything is fair game (much of it legally is, as I've mentioned before) and then you have a process of collect > collate > filter > analyse > store. Which isn't tantamount to storing everything; it's storing only what you've initially deemed important. Though I'll concede I've had a few beers and that might just be my slightly hazy interpretation. Nonetheless, it's all pretty interesting.

Also, how do you "specifically" target the communications of everyone? Surely that's the exactly opposite of specificity?

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#45

Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:20 PM

Surely you don't think Bradley Manning is a hero for releasing f*cking diplomatic cables...

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#46

Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:22 PM Edited by baguvix_wanrltw, 09 June 2013 - 09:27 PM.

QUOTE (sivispacem @ Sunday, Jun 9 2013, 21:10)
I know what you're saying, but that's not how I read that statement. The implication to me, is that everything is fair game (much of it legally is, as I've mentioned before) and then you have a process of collect > collate > filter > analyse > store. Which isn't tantamount to storing everything; it's storing only what you've initially deemed important. Though I'll concede I've had a few beers and that might just be my slightly hazy interpretation. Nonetheless, it's all pretty interesting.

"It ingests them by default. [...] they are collecting your communications to do so"... sounds pretty clear to me dozingoff.gif And storage is only a matter of definition, is 1 day storage? A year? What about in RAM? So who cares how long they store it all, the point is that they capture it. Anything after that just makes it worse of course but the biggest problem is the very capture.

I really recommend watching the whole interview. I'm not finished with it yet (had to transcribe the quotes above) but it's very interesting indeed.
QUOTE
Also, how do you "specifically" target the communications of everyone? Surely that's the exactly opposite of specificity?

Well, it was a live interview, you might put that down to that. But to be honest I'm pretty sure that was "the joke". They specifically target EVERYONE.

3rd interpretation: it does make sense in a way too. If you can specifically target 10 people you can also specifically target 100, 1000 or 320 million, or 7 billion.

Another quote from the interview:
QUOTE
Why should people care about surveillance?

Even if you're not doing anything wrong you're being watched and recorded. And the storage capability of these systems increases every year, consistently, by orders of magnitude... to where it's getting to the point where you don't have to have done anything wrong. You simply have to eventually fall under suspicion from somebody even by a wrong call, and then they can use this system to go back in time and scrutinize every decision you've ever made, every friend you've ever discussed something with, and attack you on that basis, to sort of derive suspicion from an innocent life and paint anyone in the context of a wrongdoer.


This clearly states the storage part btw.

Irviding: Collateral murder. Nuff said. And there was much more but I can see your... ideas here are very incompatible with mine so I'll leave it at that.

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#47

Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:46 PM

I respect what this Snowden guy has done. Bucking up to the world's most powerful military and intelligence community in the face of imprisonment, execution, and torture (seriously doubt he will be tortured but prison is torture) in the name of freedom? That sounds like something straight of the American revolution. So for that he is a hero and ought to be pardoned.


But realistically, I can't help but to think that this will do nothing to inhibit the CIA's intelligence gathering activities whatsoever. They will just make an example out of him.

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#48

Posted 09 June 2013 - 09:55 PM

I really like how those gun crazy American nutjobs aren't actually doing anything about this. They scream about gun control as if someone wants to take away their guns and their rights and freedoms and how they're gonna fight the tyranny, but when something like this is actually revealed they are nowhere to be found. Where the f*ck are those freedom fighters?

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#49

Posted 09 June 2013 - 10:12 PM

QUOTE (GTAvanja @ Sunday, Jun 9 2013, 14:55)
I really like how those gun crazy American nutjobs aren't actually doing anything about this. They scream about gun control as if someone wants to take away their guns and their rights and freedoms and how they're gonna fight the tyranny, but when something like this is actually revealed they are nowhere to be found. Where the f*ck are those freedom fighters?

They are all probably organizing a plan to storm the Bastille...I mean white house with their guns. Also, with that being said I probably made it onto the NSA'a list of people to use the captured info against. I think there were some people protesting to have Obama impeached.


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#50

Posted 09 June 2013 - 10:40 PM

QUOTE (GTAvanja @ Sunday, Jun 9 2013, 16:55)
I really like how those gun crazy American nutjobs aren't actually doing anything about this. They scream about gun control as if someone wants to take away their guns and their rights and freedoms and how they're gonna fight the tyranny, but when something like this is actually revealed they are nowhere to be found. Where the f*ck are those freedom fighters?

What the hell does this have to do with gun politics? Besides, the Republicans who are the most known for being gun clingers are clearly criticizing this as they do with any other action under the Obama Administration.

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#51

Posted 09 June 2013 - 10:44 PM Edited by baguvix_wanrltw, 09 June 2013 - 11:08 PM.

QUOTE (canttakemyid @ Sunday, Jun 9 2013, 22:40)
What the hell does this have to do with gun politics? Besides, the Republicans who are the most known for being gun clingers are clearly criticizing this as they do with any other action under the Obama Administration.

Well come on, don't claim you don't see his/her (huh didn't your profile say male a week ago o.0) point. Yeah it might have been a little OT here but (s)he's right, those same people who shout at the top of their lungs as soon as anyone even thinks about touching their precious guns (see that wonderful campaign with the small kids and guns - who aren't allowed to have kinder chocolates for example) aren't being anywhere near as loud when issues such as these come up, or at least they don't seem to be from what I can tell. I'm not american however so of course my perceptions might be off here, in which case I apologize.

And btw just to state this clearly I'm in no way anti american; all of my entertainment comes from there, I love the language and (some of) the people. And it does have an inspiring history... up to a point. But that doesn't mean I have to tolerate every secret illegal action of intelligence agencies there.


Oh and also don't just watch that video interview with Snowden, also read the Guardian piece. Very informative...

http://www.guardian....er-surveillance

QUOTE
In a note accompanying the first set of documents he provided, he wrote: "I understand that I will be made to suffer for my actions," but "I will be satisfied if the federation of secret law, unequal pardon and irresistible executive powers that rule the world that I love are revealed even for an instant."

Despite his determination to be publicly unveiled, he repeatedly insisted that he wants to avoid the media spotlight. "I don't want public attention because I don't want the story to be about me. I want it to be about what the US government is doing."

He does not fear the consequences of going public, he said, only that doing so will distract attention from the issues raised by his disclosures. "I know the media likes to personalise political debates, and I know the government will demonise me."

Despite these fears, he remained hopeful his outing will not divert attention from the substance of his disclosures. "I really want the focus to be on these documents and the debate which I hope this will trigger among citizens around the globe about what kind of world we want to live in." He added: "My sole motive is to inform the public as to that which is done in their name and that which is done against them."

He has had "a very comfortable life" that included a salary of roughly $200,000, a girlfriend with whom he shared a home in Hawaii, a stable career, and a family he loves. "I'm willing to sacrifice all of that because I can't in good conscience allow the US government to destroy privacy, internet freedom and basic liberties for people around the world with this massive surveillance machine they're secretly building."


QUOTE
"Yes, I could be rendered by the CIA. I could have people come after me. Or any of the third-party partners. They work closely with a number of other nations. Or they could pay off the Triads. Any of their agents or assets," he said.

"We have got a CIA station just up the road the consulate here in Hong Kong and I am sure they are going to be busy for the next week. And that is a concern I will live with for the rest of my life, however long that happens to be."

Having watched the Obama administration prosecute whistleblowers at a historically unprecedented rate, he fully expects the US government to attempt to use all its weight to punish him. "I am not afraid," he said calmly, "because this is the choice I've made."

He's currently in Hong Kong because he thinks that might grant him some sort of protection. But he doesn't seem to be expecting much.

QUOTE
Asked by reporters to establish his authenticity to ensure he is not some fantasist, he laid bare, without hesitation, his personal details, from his social security number to his CIA ID and his expired diplomatic passport. There is no shiftiness. Ask him about anything in his personal life and he will answer.

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#52

Posted 09 June 2013 - 10:53 PM

Spy intelligence....or Sly intelligence? That is the question.

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#53

Posted 09 June 2013 - 11:28 PM Edited by canttakemyid, 09 June 2013 - 11:32 PM.

QUOTE (baguvix_wanrltw @ Sunday, Jun 9 2013, 17:44)
QUOTE (canttakemyid @ Sunday, Jun 9 2013, 22:40)
What the hell does this have to do with gun politics? Besides, the Republicans who are the most known for being gun clingers are clearly criticizing this as they do with any other action under the Obama Administration.

Well come on, don't claim you don't see his/her (huh didn't your profile say male a week ago o.0) point. Yeah it might have been a little OT here but (s)he's right, those same people who shout at the top of their lungs as soon as anyone even thinks about touching their precious guns (see that wonderful campaign with the small kids and guns - who aren't allowed to have kinder chocolates for example) aren't being anywhere near as loud when issues such as these come up, or at least they don't seem to be from what I can tell. I'm not american however so of course my perceptions might be off here, in which case I apologize.

And btw just to state this clearly I'm in no way anti american; all of my entertainment comes from there, I love the language and (some of) the people. And it does have an inspiring history... up to a point. But that doesn't mean I have to tolerate every secret illegal action of intelligence agencies there.


Oh and also don't just watch that video interview with Snowden, also read the Guardian piece. Very informative...

http://www.guardian....er-surveillance

QUOTE
In a note accompanying the first set of documents he provided, he wrote: "I understand that I will be made to suffer for my actions," but "I will be satisfied if the federation of secret law, unequal pardon and irresistible executive powers that rule the world that I love are revealed even for an instant."

Despite his determination to be publicly unveiled, he repeatedly insisted that he wants to avoid the media spotlight. "I don't want public attention because I don't want the story to be about me. I want it to be about what the US government is doing."

He does not fear the consequences of going public, he said, only that doing so will distract attention from the issues raised by his disclosures. "I know the media likes to personalise political debates, and I know the government will demonise me."

Despite these fears, he remained hopeful his outing will not divert attention from the substance of his disclosures. "I really want the focus to be on these documents and the debate which I hope this will trigger among citizens around the globe about what kind of world we want to live in." He added: "My sole motive is to inform the public as to that which is done in their name and that which is done against them."

He has had "a very comfortable life" that included a salary of roughly $200,000, a girlfriend with whom he shared a home in Hawaii, a stable career, and a family he loves. "I'm willing to sacrifice all of that because I can't in good conscience allow the US government to destroy privacy, internet freedom and basic liberties for people around the world with this massive surveillance machine they're secretly building."


QUOTE
"Yes, I could be rendered by the CIA. I could have people come after me. Or any of the third-party partners. They work closely with a number of other nations. Or they could pay off the Triads. Any of their agents or assets," he said.

"We have got a CIA station just up the road the consulate here in Hong Kong and I am sure they are going to be busy for the next week. And that is a concern I will live with for the rest of my life, however long that happens to be."

Having watched the Obama administration prosecute whistleblowers at a historically unprecedented rate, he fully expects the US government to attempt to use all its weight to punish him. "I am not afraid," he said calmly, "because this is the choice I've made."

He's currently in Hong Kong because he thinks that might grant him some sort of protection. But he doesn't seem to be expecting much...

QUOTE
Asked by reporters to establish his authenticity to ensure he is not some fantasist, he laid bare, without hesitation, his personal details, from his social security number to his CIA ID and his expired diplomatic passport. There is no shiftiness. Ask him about anything in his personal life and he will answer.

I read the entire article and prepared a post for about an hour off and on while cooking only to get a 502 error message. So I said "screw it" and just paraphrased in my earlier post. I also didn't see the video interview. I wouldn't put all whistle-blowers in the same boat as being heroes but I have already made an exception for Mr. Snowden. I never accused anyone here of being anti-American either. I think you are preaching to the choir a bit.

I hate this program as much as the next guy. But realistically, the unethical clandestine tactics pointed out by Mr. Snowden aren't going anywhere as a result of his leaks and are employeed by every intelligence gathering organization in the world. There are no rules in intelligence gathering, only results. A pawn like Snowden has only seen a glimpse of what CIA can and will do compared to the higher-ups. Remember this is just a leaked program. Imagine the types of activities far above his pay grade. What I'm saying is that the intelligence community is too powerful to regulate at this point. Only money can limit the CIA and NSA. Tbh, I don't even see that happening anytime soon with their resources including but no limited to financial espionage, a classified budget, top secret technology, and access to data.

As for those gun clinging people who aren't complaining about this. What exactly do you by "same people"? It's a ludicrous claim for someone without access to a list of everyone who cares about gun laws and everyone who care about cyber laws. Many Americans who believe in civil liberties like myself are also concerned with this issue. But a good bit of gun-clinging baby-boomers aren't even tech-savvy enough to understand the ramifications of this program. His/her post was off-topic gibberish at best.

blitz
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#54

Posted 09 June 2013 - 11:31 PM

I just hope guys stop asking their girlfriends what they're wearing through the phone.

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#55

Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:10 AM

QUOTE (GTAvanja @ Sunday, Jun 9 2013, 21:55)
I really like how those gun crazy American nutjobs aren't actually doing anything about this. They scream about gun control as if someone wants to take away their guns and their rights and freedoms and how they're gonna fight the tyranny, but when something like this is actually revealed they are nowhere to be found. Where the <> are those freedom fighters?

Why do you think the People in Government want to disarm the public.
Most gun owners are quiet peace loving, get through the day, weekend shooters. You only want to hear the Loud Mouthed, drunk every night after work, and twice on the weekend jerks.

The thinking in situations where the public is lulled by people like Our Sheldon works like the thinking of Good Catholics during the 1000 year Reich. "So the Government is after them damn dirty terrorists. It doesn't affect me so why should I worry?"

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#56

Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:19 AM Edited by baguvix_wanrltw, 10 June 2013 - 12:38 AM.

QUOTE (canttakemyid @ Sunday, Jun 9 2013, 23:28)
It's a ludicrous claim for someone without access to a list of everyone who cares about gun laws and everyone who care about cyber laws.

Well, maybe I have that list because I'm actually NSA! lol.gif

Seriously though no offense intended, like I said it's just the feeling I get from here and other places, it could easily be entirely unfounded. And yeah I noticed an abundant lack of apologists in here... apparently even they don't think this is a good thing.

blitz raises a good point, only problem being that all forms of comms (except direct personal - as far as we know... time for new crazy theories now that the old ones turned out true) are stored. So just don't talk anymore, best don't even think. Great accomplishments of a democratic nation.

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#57

Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:26 AM

QUOTE (baguvix_wanrltw @ Sunday, Jun 9 2013, 19:19)
QUOTE (canttakemyid @ Sunday, Jun 9 2013, 23:28)
It's a ludicrous claim for someone without access to a list of everyone who cares about gun laws and everyone who care about cyber laws.

Well, maybe I have that list because I'm actually NSA! lol.gif

Seriously though no offense intended, like I said it's just the feeling I get from here and other places, it could easily be entirely unfounded. And yeah I noticed an abundant lack of apologets in here... apparently even they don't think this is a good thing.

blitz raises a good point though, only problem being that all forms of comms (except direct personal - as far as we know... time for new crazy theories now that the old ones turned out true) are stored. So just don't talk anymore, best don't even think. Great accomplishments of a democratic nation.

I just hope they go easy on him. I really hope he finds asylum. The only thing that helps me sleep at night is the idea that many people in the upper echelon of the CIA have strong military values like Mr. Snowden. So hopefully, they won't go full-blown Orwell on us.

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#58

Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:28 AM

QUOTE (baguvix_wanrltw @ Monday, Jun 10 2013, 00:19)
And yeah I noticed an abundant lack of apologets in here... apparently even they don't think this is a good thing.

Apologists? I tend to play devil's advocate from time to time, liking to look at the situation from both sides but again I go back to that specific date, no ones addressed it. What happened within the 3 months prior for them to take such open measures against our privacy. I can't think nothing at all or even a red herring there has to be some valid point of concern in there justifiable or not.

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#59

Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:41 AM

QUOTE (canttakemyid @ Monday, Jun 10 2013, 00:26)
I just hope they go easy on him.  I really hope he finds asylum.  The only thing that helps me sleep at night is the idea that many people in the upper echelon of the CIA have strong military values like Mr. Snowden.  So hopefully, they won't go full-blown Orwell on us.

Amen to that. But why do you call them "military values"? That's one of the last words that would have come to my mind in this context. But I assume you're more referring to military ideals than.. current engagements.

meta: Yeah sorry that got messed up in translation smile.gif As for that date, good question... I don't think I've read enough about that but I'll look through your posts later.

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#60

Posted 10 June 2013 - 12:46 AM

QUOTE (GTAvanja @ Sunday, Jun 9 2013, 16:55)
I really like how those gun crazy American nutjobs aren't actually doing anything about this. They scream about gun control as if someone wants to take away their guns and their rights and freedoms and how they're gonna fight the tyranny, but when something like this is actually revealed they are nowhere to be found. Where the f*ck are those freedom fighters?

A civil war is a pretty big deal, friend. Part of exercising your second amendment rights is responsibility. Starting a war will result in a lot of innocents dead and no one wants to pull the trigger that sets that off unless they're absolutely sure they have a majority of people on their side. If they don't have that, they're just a madman shooting people in the capitol. If it's just a few hundred/thousand people, it's a 'terrorist faction' or something and the public will be easily swayed against them.

Starting a rebellion isn't quick or easy. It's gonna take one massive-scale incendiary event or years of careful planning and networking to get EVERYONE involved. Until then, people should probably give diplomacy a chance. Surely there are legal measures you can take care of this. If it's not illegal, make it so.




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